Animal Experiments in Medical School

mancreatedgod

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    i want to ask you a question, how many times you have helped those homeless people that you saw in your very own city?!

    why do you care about saving animals' lives when you see LIVE PEOPLE are dying on the street everyday!!!

    and would you rather to see your own beloved ones be saved because of a few animals were used to find cues to cue human diseases?

    why are there idiots care about animals when they don't even try to save those homeless people suffering daily! what a shame! just like bush, he sent tons of money and soliders trying to "liberate" iraq when there are many many homeless people right in the washington DC. and there are many many inner city schools full of non-white students who don't even have a good education!
     

    OldMD

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      mancreatedgod said:
      i want to ask you a question, how many times you have helped those homeless people that you saw in your very own city?!

      why do you care about saving animals' lives when you see LIVE PEOPLE are dying on the street everyday!!!

      and would you rather to see your own beloved ones be saved because of a few animals were used to find cues to cue human diseases?

      why are there idiots care about animals when they don't even try to save those homeless people suffering daily! what a shame! just like bush, he sent tons of money and soliders trying to "liberate" iraq when there are many many homeless people right in the washington DC. and there are many many inner city schools full of non-white students who don't even have a good education!

      Whoa. Please don't assume things about me, I am just asking opinions... but for your information I do care about curing human diseases. Notice that I said ANIMAL EXPERIMENTS not ANIMAL RESEARCH. There is a difference.

      I also come from a poverty-stricken background, and was homeless for a time during my childhood, so I know a good deal about saving suffering homeless people.

      My husband and I contribute significant portions of our income to humanitarian causes (and animal causes, too.)

      Gee, have a nice day. I still want to know if other people's med schools use animals for EXPERIMENTS, not research.

      Thanks,
      OldMD
       
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      dsblaha

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        I don't understand the distinction you are trying to make between research and experiments.

        Isn't the nature of research to do experiments?
        You will be hard pressed to find ANY school that does research that does not do experiments on animals.
         

        NMH2001

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          In reply to "mancreatedgod's" post-

          It is the ignorant people like yourself that makes me support animal rights more and more every day.

          I'm not saying that research is wrong, or that homelessness is not a huge problem-because it definately is. But to call people who care about and respect animals "idiots" is just plain rude and ignorant. Do you happen to know the numbers of abused and stray animals in this country? Do you know why there is so may of them?? Sadly, it is because of people probably just like yourself who apparently, do not have a clue. Just my 2 cents...
           

          beanbean

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            I think what the OP is referring to is medical experiments performed by med students as part of their required curriculum (like the cardio dog lab example posted above) as opposed to medical research animal experiments which are performed to further research.

            To answer the OP's question: At UCONN the only animal lab we have (that I know about) in the first two years involved the demise of a couple of frogs for a cardio electrical conductivity lab. No dogs, pigs, cats or cute little furry things, thankfully.
             

            Kimmer

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              OldMD said:
              How many of you attend a medical school where animals are used, and killed, in the labs?

              OldMD


              I used to work at a med school that experiemented on animals in their labs and I am very suspicious of this post. Animal rights people used to break into the labs and vandalize everything in site. Don't give out information on your school! Seriously some of these people are dangerous!
               

              2112_rush

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                My school has a phys lab that uses pigs. We use drugs to see their effects on the cardiovascular system, practice suturing, and I'm told at the end we open the chest and manually pump the heart. Everyone has to participate in some way, even if it is only to record data.

                IMO this lab is a little uneccessary, but I'd rather practice some of these things on a pig before I try them on a person.
                 

                mancreatedgod

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                  NMH2001 said:
                  Do you happen to know the numbers of abused and stray animals in this country? Do you know why there is so may of them?? Sadly, it is because of people probably just like yourself who apparently, do not have a clue. Just my 2 cents...

                  I am not ignorant, i am way beyond your level. to your kind of people, you probably think that a dying dog is more important than a dying homeless people.

                  why cares about stray animals, when i walk around the cities, I see STRAY people, some of them have to sleep outside even in winter time!

                  "it is because of people probably just like yourself who apprently, do not have a clue."

                  why don't you donate your money to the homeless shelters, or buy them some food?

                  i will fully support animal rights when there is no more homeless people in the world. that day will never come!

                  and for your kind of people, who cares about those animals, i know that around the world, there are many people who still do not have food, shelter. they are living like ANIMALS!

                  simply because there are those "lucky" animals that were born in the US, that does not make them special. simply because there are those people all over the world that were not born in the US, that does not make them less human. there are plenty homeless people in your city right now, and there are millions more unfortunate people that can't live like decent men/women.

                  who cares about animal experiments, they are used for good reasons!

                  kimmer, I totally agree with you. those animal "rights" are good at nothing, but harassing scientists. those people have nothing else better to do. for them, I want to say, go save some dying people first. People should be more important than some rats.
                   

                  MedicineBird

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                    mancreatedgod said:
                    I am not ignorant, i am way beyond your level. to your kind of people, you probably think that a dying dog is more important than a dying homeless people.

                    why cares about stray animals, when i walk around the cities, I see STRAY people, some of them have to sleep outside even in winter time!

                    "it is because of people probably just like yourself who apprently, do not have a clue."

                    why don't you donate your money to the homeless shelters, or buy them some food?

                    i will fully support animal rights when there is no more homeless people in the world. that day will never come!

                    and for your kind of people, who cares about those animals, i know that around the world, there are many people who still do not have food, shelter. they are living like ANIMALS!

                    simply because there are those "lucky" animals that were born in the US, that does not make them special. simply because there are those people all over the world that were not born in the US, that does not make them less human. there are plenty homeless people in your city right now, and there are millions more unfortunate people that can't live like decent men/women.

                    who cares about animal experiments, they are used for good reasons!

                    kimmer, I totally agree with you. those animal "rights" are good at nothing, but harassing scientists. those people have nothing else better to do. for them, I want to say, go save some dying people first. People should be more important than some rats.


                    I think it is human nature to feel bad for animals because obviously they are in the situation by no fault of their own. We have been socially conditioned to automatically believe the guy with his sign standing on the corner is there by his own design. He made poor life choices, got messed up in drugs, you name it. It's eaasier for many of us to rationalize by saying they made their own bed and now they get to lay in it. Animals, on the other hand did nothing to "deserve" their lot in life.
                     
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                    Old_Mil

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                      mancreatedgod said:
                      I am not ignorant, i am way beyond your level. to your kind of people, you probably think that a dying dog is more important than a dying homeless people.

                      I challenge you to provide a reasonable argument why a dying dog is not more important than a dying person. It's my contention that most dying dogs are far more important than most dying people.
                       

                      typeB-md

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                        Old_Mil said:
                        I challenge you to provide a reasonable argument why a dying dog is not more important than a dying person. It's my contention that most dying dogs are far more important than most dying people.

                        dogs can't be used for work

                        therefore... homeless man (who has potential to work) > homeless dog
                         

                        pillowhead

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                          typeB-md said:
                          dogs can't be used for work

                          therefore... homeless man (who has potential to work) > homeless dog

                          just out of curiousity, do you feel the same about children and older people? i swear, there isn't a wrong or right answer. we hada discussion sort of about this in class related to another topic.
                           

                          Old_Mil

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                            typeB-md said:
                            dogs can't be used for work

                            therefore... homeless man (who has potential to work) > homeless dog

                            First, dogs can be used for work. The customs service and DEA works with both gun and explosive sniffing dogs. Dogs are used by hunters and blind people as well. So it's incorrect to say that dogs don't work - many dogs work much harder than homeless people.

                            Furthermore, where did you get the idea that the worth of an organism is based on its potential to do work? Extending that idea to its logical conclusion, it would be fairly easy to start ranking human deaths in order of importance (ah, it doesn't matter so much that hundreds of thousands died in the tsunami in Southeast Asia...).

                            So once again, why is the death of a human more significant than the death of a dog? It would be my contention that you would be eliminating far more good from the planet if you got rid of half this world's dogs than half this world's humans.

                            What say you? :idea:
                             

                            erin682

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                              Ok seriously I don't think the OP is against animal research at all. I don't think that you could honestly go into medicine and me against it. All she was asking is how many med students have to kill animals to do experiments for their own education. Its doing stuff that we already know the answers to and therefore not important research thats keeping anyone alive.

                              I also don't see how believing in the humane treatment of humans and animals are mutually exculsive. Compassion doesn't have to be limited to humans until all human ails are gone. I very strongly support animal research and I thing most extreme animal rights activists are hypocrits who protest animal research one day and turn around and take life saving medicines that have been tested on animals the next. But that doesn't mean I can't be opposed to unnecessarily killing animals.
                               

                              12R34Y

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                                I can't help, but make a horribly argument invoking, sure to get the thread closed down soon statement..............I think it is peculiar that most of the animal rights folks I know at my school are also ragingly pro-choice.

                                It always puzzled me how they are so against killing animals and pigs, dogs, etc...but they have no problem whatsoever with sucking out a baby at 15 weeks or doing a D&C at 20 weeks on a almost viable baby. That doesn't seem to bother them at all. I know I know...people will say it is different, but I'm sure they would still oppose taking fetal dogs and killing them etc....it is the same thing, but one is human and one is an animal?

                                just an observation from my own personal experiences and not to say that anyone on this thread is like that.

                                later
                                 

                                pillowhead

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                                  12R34Y said:
                                  I can't help, but make a horribly argument invoking, sure to get the thread closed down soon statement..............I think it is peculiar that most of the animal rights folks I know at my school are also ragingly pro-choice.

                                  It always puzzled me how they are so against killing animals and pigs, dogs, etc...but they have no problem whatsoever with sucking out a baby at 15 weeks or doing a D&C at 20 weeks on a almost viable baby. That doesn't seem to bother them at all. I know I know...people will say it is different, but I'm sure they would still oppose taking fetal dogs and killing them etc....it is the same thing, but one is human and one is an animal?

                                  just an observation from my own personal experiences and not to say that anyone on this thread is like that.

                                  later

                                  It's an interesting point that illustrates how differently the two sides in the abortion debate view abortion. One side views it as a heinous, disguisting crime while the other views it as one of preserving autonomy. I won't deny that the physical act of abortion is messy and dirty and probably with some pain involved, but that still does not override the woman's choice in my opinion.

                                  Animals don't have ANY choices...ever. So the issue of autonomy doesn't come up with animal rights. Therefore I don't have a problem with trying to prevent a heinous act against an animal while having no problem with somebody having an abortion. I hope that makes sense. I mean, if a dog wanted to abort its own puppies, I'm not going to stop her. But if a human came in a cut open a dog without anesthesia and ripped puppies out of her, that'd be a different story.

                                  Anyhoo, I'm certainly no big animal rights activist, but when you watch the stuff on Animal Planet's show--Animal Cops, it does make my blood boil.
                                   

                                  OldMD

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                                    OP here. Thanks for your responses; most people get the gist of my post.

                                    When I differentiate between research and experiements, I am saying that research is performed to discover new things in science... but with experiments I am referring to just cutting a dog open, for the sake of observation, to see the heart beat, cut some nerves and stimulate various things... I personally cannot bear to see an animal sacrificed just for my own observation so I opted out of that phys lab. Really, it's doing stuff we already knew the answers to.

                                    I am pretty sensitive when it comes to animals. Perhaps it's not a good quality. I realize that animal research is a necessary evil, but I don't want to think about it, or see it. Animals have no choices in their lives, as a previous poster said... it's a sensitive subject.

                                    The security at my school is always heightened during phys dog lab week. And... the dean has decided to get rid of the dog lab, so it's no longer going to be part of the curriculum. I was just wondering what other schools do.

                                    Peace and good digestive health,
                                    OldMD
                                     

                                    typeB-md

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                                      Old_Mil said:
                                      First, dogs can be used for work. The customs service and DEA works with both gun and explosive sniffing dogs. Dogs are used by hunters and blind people as well. So it's incorrect to say that dogs don't work - many dogs work much harder than homeless people.

                                      Furthermore, where did you get the idea that the worth of an organism is based on its potential to do work? Extending that idea to its logical conclusion, it would be fairly easy to start ranking human deaths in order of importance (ah, it doesn't matter so much that hundreds of thousands died in the tsunami in Southeast Asia...).

                                      So once again, why is the death of a human more significant than the death of a dog? It would be my contention that you would be eliminating far more good from the planet if you got rid of half this world's dogs than half this world's humans.

                                      What say you? :idea:

                                      like someone has already stated, dogs can't make their own decisions. therefore eliminating a being that can make decisions based on choice is worse than eliminating a being that can't make decisions and use logical judgement.

                                      you say you can train dogs to do work with the DEA, etc.. homeless work programs can teach a man a trade and that man can then integrate into society and make a positive difference. in conclusion man > dog.



                                      and to answer some of the other questions.

                                      children are being trained for potential workability and their potential positive contribution to society

                                      old people have already contributed and may still contribute with their wisdom
                                       

                                      wiryMD

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                                        mancreatedgod said:
                                        I am not ignorant, i am way beyond your level. to your kind of people, you probably think that a dying dog is more important than a dying homeless people.

                                        why cares about stray animals, when i walk around the cities, I see STRAY people, some of them have to sleep outside even in winter time!

                                        "it is because of people probably just like yourself who apprently, do not have a clue."

                                        why don't you donate your money to the homeless shelters, or buy them some food?

                                        i will fully support animal rights when there is no more homeless people in the world. that day will never come!

                                        and for your kind of people, who cares about those animals, i know that around the world, there are many people who still do not have food, shelter. they are living like ANIMALS!

                                        simply because there are those "lucky" animals that were born in the US, that does not make them special. simply because there are those people all over the world that were not born in the US, that does not make them less human. there are plenty homeless people in your city right now, and there are millions more unfortunate people that can't live like decent men/women.

                                        who cares about animal experiments, they are used for good reasons!

                                        kimmer, I totally agree with you. those animal "rights" are good at nothing, but harassing scientists. those people have nothing else better to do. for them, I want to say, go save some dying people first. People should be more important than some rats.

                                        What an excellent point, why should anyone care about animals when there are people in the world who are homeless and have no food. And I too will not support animal rights until there are no homeless people in the world. Because as a rational human being i could not possibly support 2 causes at the same time. Perhaps you could give a list of all of your possessions, and oddly enough I think there may be a few things that fall under the heading of indulgence, so until you decide to give every resource at your disposal to the plight of the homeless I suggest you get off of your soapbox and feel free not to call other persons in these forums idiots.
                                         

                                        mancreatedgod

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                                          Old_Mil said:
                                          I challenge you to provide a reasonable argument why a dying dog is not more important than a dying person. It's my contention that most dying dogs are far more important than most dying people.

                                          good question. I suggest that next time when you get really sick, when you are about to die, you ask the doctors to stop helping you. you should ask the society to donate all those money to your fav. dog shelters to save those dying dogs.

                                          obviously, you think that a dying dog is more important than a dying you! :thumbup:

                                          and more, ask the doctors not to save your dying parents, because those dying dogs are more important than your dying parents.

                                          and seriously, who cares, your parents are gonna be dead any way. we should use those money to save dogs.
                                           

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                                            OldMD said:
                                            OP here. Thanks for your responses; most people get the gist of my post.

                                            When I differentiate between research and experiements, I am saying that research is performed to discover new things in science... but with experiments I am referring to just cutting a dog open, for the sake of observation, to see the heart beat, cut some nerves and stimulate various things... I personally cannot bear to see an animal sacrificed just for my own observation so I opted out of that phys lab. Really, it's doing stuff we already knew the answers to.

                                            I am pretty sensitive when it comes to animals. Perhaps it's not a good quality. I realize that animal research is a necessary evil, but I don't want to think about it, or see it. Animals have no choices in their lives, as a previous poster said... it's a sensitive subject.

                                            The security at my school is always heightened during phys dog lab week. And... the dean has decided to get rid of the dog lab, so it's no longer going to be part of the curriculum. I was just wondering what other schools do.

                                            Peace and good digestive health,
                                            OldMD


                                            I agree with you. I hate to see animals used in this way, I think it is horrible. I too don't understand why some schools really feel the need to cut an animal open just so that people can see a beating heart-its like you said, its stuff we already know. Why can't people just observe heart surgery instead? Then they can see a heart beating and no animals are killed in the process.

                                            I an sensitive about animals to. I think its a good quality. I am an undergrad right now and I am so happy that my school doesn't have the equipment to do the frog labs (the ones where you pith it and then stimulate nerves etc). I would even hate to do that to a frog, I don't know how people can do similar things to a dog or cat. If I even had to observe that being done to a dog, even if I watched a video of it, I wouldn't be able to handle it.

                                            Animals feel pain too, thats why I hate to see this stuff done to them. I am about to say something that is probably going to get some people mad at me, and telling me that a shouldn't become a doctor, but I don't care because it is truly what I believe. I think that it some cases an animal is more important than a human. For instance: If I saw a person torturing a dog or cat and then that person suddenly gets severly injured, I would help the animal first. And as others have said, I care about my pets more than I care about most people!

                                            IMO, I think harming animals is almost the same as harming a child. I say that because both are defenseless, and neither of them understand why they are being hurt.

                                            I hope I get into a medical school that doesnt have theses labs where dogs are experimented on in those ways. Like I said, its just wrong to do experiments and such to an extent that it harms the dog so much that it has to be killed in the end of the lab. :(
                                             

                                            ResIpsa

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                                              I don't understand why people are so easily able to justify animal experimentation no matter what the cost. Animals are not our slaves. I don't understand why people think they can just do anything they want with them. Why do humans think they have the right to cage up animals, keep them in horrible conditions, and then slaughter them for their own food? I also don't understand how people can be cruel to any animal, let alone their own pet. Animals can feel pain, have some range of emotional development, and have the capacity to love and feel attachment. I don't understand why we constantly disrespect them, undervalue them, and see them as irreplacable commodities. I couldn't watch an animal being killed or tortured anymore than I could watch a human being killed or tortured.

                                              As to the analogy about the homeless people, homeless people, most of the time, are competent enough to do something about their homelessness. They don't have to live in poverty. Many people in that situation can get help, can find a job with minimal educational requirements, etc. Homeless people have the free will to do something about their situation. Animals, on the other hand, are helpless against their human controllers.

                                              Just because they can't speak or think the way you or I do doesn't make them any less important of a living being. Why do people think that they can do with animals however they like? I fundamentally disagree with that concept. I'm also vegetarian, and try to use, to the best of my ability, products that are not tested on animals (shampoo, etc.) Why can't we use human volunteers to get shampoos injected into their eyes to see if they cause blindness--why do we have to use poor, innocent animals who didn't do anything to deserve such treatment?

                                              I believe that some medical experimentation on animals is necessary, but I would feel much better if more medical experimentation could also be done on adult, willing humans as well.
                                               

                                              automaton

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                                                Old_Mil said:
                                                I challenge you to provide a reasonable argument why a dying dog is not more important than a dying person. It's my contention that most dying dogs are far more important than most dying people.
                                                are you a vet or in vet school?

                                                i don't think animals should be used if it is unnecessary. but i also don't think animals are as valuable as human beings. why? because i myself am human. you don't like that reasoning? well too bad, that's how the world works. who's to say my view of morality is less right than another's? i think morality is all made up anyway.

                                                also, a lot of you guys have misconceptions about homeless people. it's not like all homeless people are homeless because they don't like living in a house. many of them have serious psychiatric problems, or escaped from unsafe environments. so please don't step on your fellow human beings to justify an argument against the unnecessary use of animals. we can respect life without making needless comparisons.
                                                 

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                                                  It seems that many of us agree that animals should be cared for humanely and with respect. There is way too much abuse of animals in the world, and I don't think that to acknowledge that fact means that I don't value humans also.

                                                  I'm not entirely familiar with all of the very complex issues w/r/t animals being used in experiments, but the greatest of care must be done to eliminate other viable options as well as to limit (with the goal of eliminating) any pain and suffering of the animal. As humans, I think we should be able to handle that, right?

                                                  I think it's a good thing to have compasion for other creatures that we share this earth with.
                                                   
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