another DO vs. MD thread... this time with a twist.

[stoic]

So the title of the thread should have drawn some attention, right?

What I am about to post is my current situation. I'm putting it up here on the internet for advice and discussion. There are several threads floating around right now questioning the high cost of osteopathic medical education and here I'm going to discuss how these high cost are affected my application process.

I have, for the past couple of years, been very much pre-DO. There are several reasons for this. I was initially drawn to osteopathic medicine due to it's percieved willingness to forgive early academic problems. After my freshman year of college, I owned a 2.8 cumm. GPA and a 2.1 science GPA (and a stubborn 2.1 at that... i had done poorly in several different science classes - 20 hours out of the 30 total I took as a freshman were BCMP). As I decided that I wanted to go to medical school, I realized that there would be a difficult uphill battle in order to raise my GPA. Because my perception had been (and still is) that DO schools will look closely at an upward trend, I focused a lot of time into discovering if osteopathic medicine and I would be a good fit. I really enjoy the DO philosophy and believe in the efficacy of *most* manual medicine. I also believe that numbers alone cannot accurately predict an applicants potential as a physician. In any case, because of these reasons, I decided to work towards a DO education and forget about the MD world.

Fast forward a couple years to right now. I've done what I can to raise my GPA (it's up to 3.4cumm. and 3.2 science.) It's not stellar, but it has come a LONGGGG way. During both my sophomore and junior years I earned a GPA of 3.4. Though not as high as I would I have liked, I did take a more difficult courseload than most while being super engaged in research/extracurricular activities and maintaining an outside job. Though the results from the MCAT are not back yet, practice test indicate that I will likely score around a 30 (+/- 2pts). The point is that I have developed what I feel is a competative application for osteopathic medicals schools.

My parents have been extremely supportive of me during this time and very much agree with my decision to pursue medicine as a career. They have given me advice and confidence that have helped me through the extermely stressful premed process. My parents are both health care professionals (pharmacist) and aware of the MD/DO issues, both real and percieved. Both of my parents fully support and believe in the ability and training of DO's. In an ideal world, my parents would very much like to see me become a physician - with no regard of MD/DO. My Dad is not a super-investor or other kind of money genuis, but he has done well with our families money and instilled in me what I consider extremely useful and accurate financial knowledge. The bottom line is that when it comes to money, I trust my dad 100%. My career goals are primary care in rural Kansas - this is yet another thing that has drawn me to osteopathic medicine.

HOWEVER - my Dad has recently had a serious conversation with me about the financial concerns of attending a DO schools. The average private DO school cost around 35k a year. My state MD school cost about 15k a year. That's a REALLY big difference, especially when those numbers are multiplied by 4. Though my Dad believes firmly in the ability of osteopaths and the practice opportunities provided to them, he flat out told me it would be in my financial interest to apply to only my state MD school this year and if not accepted to reapply to the state school AND DO schools the following year. The logic being this:

-My chance of admission at the state MD schools - assuming a good MCAT score - is reasonable, though not particuarly high. My shot at a waitlist is probably pretty good.
-My chance of admission at the state MD school would likely go up if I spent another year in school working to increase my GPA. In an extra year I would be able to earn another BS (genetics) on top of the BS i will graduate with next spring (cell biology) by taking only 4 more classes. I could use this year to basically work exclusively on the sci. gpa section of my application.
-An extra year at my state school would cost about 7k.
-7k+(15k x 4yrs)= ~70k for the cost of medical education and extra undergraduate year.

-If I were to go directly to DO school the cost of my medical education would be ~140k (35k x 4yrs).

The numbers are striking. A seventy thousand dollar difference is particuarly significant to someone who wants to go into primary care and is looking about making around 120k a year in practice.

He see no problem with being a DO except that the cost of DO education is so high. I have to admit that my there seems to be wisdom in my Dad's analysis of the situation. Of course he will support me with whatever I do, but he has openly told me he would be very concerned about the debt I'd be incurring as an osteopathic student.

So there you have it. This is by far the longest post I've ever made. Basically, I love the DO philosophy, but I don't think you have to be a DO to practice it in most cases. I've met MD's who where as holistic as DO's (in fact I'm writing about one in my personal statement - this MD is the most awesome Doc ever, MD or DO). I've also met DO's that where as much glorified pill pusher as some DO's would lead you to believe all MD's are. I'm at a confused place and will be doing a lot thinking on the issue. Does anyone have any thoughts?

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[Buckeye(OH)]

The one catch that you fail to mention is that if you do not get into MD school next year than what?

You could have been a Med III DO by the third try and though thats three years of medical education at 35K, thats also three extra years of earning.



I personally don't think its wise to gamble and only apply to one school.


My 0.02$


Adrian

 

[stoic]

The one catch that you fail to mention is that if you do not get into MD school next year than what?

You could have been a Med III DO by the third try and though thats three years of medical education at 35K, thats also three extra years of earning.



I personally don't think its wise to gamble and only apply to one school.


My 0.02$


Adrian

Sorry, I got lazy by the end of the post and left some stuff out. If I didn't get into the MD school first year, the second year I would apply MD and DO and if only holding a DO acceptance, I would definately go DO. Keep in mind that I'm looking at this from a purely financial stand point. I don't care which set of initials follow my name in the future. It is scary to think that I may not get in anywhere - MD or DO - my second application cycle. However, I believe that my the second year around would be stronger to both DO and MD schools. It also scary to be 200k+ indebt (which I would be with living expenses factored in) and making 120K a year as a 30 year old with no retirement or net worth.

I posted this thread to help give a "face" to the bitching that's been going on recently about the cost of DO education. Partially, I'm wanting to show that DO schools are potentially hurting themselves by charging such high tutions. If a DO school was say, 10k - instead of 20k, more expensive per year, I might not even be having this discussion. Maybe DO schools need every penny of that 35k per year, maybe they don't need it. That's not what I want to talk about here. Basically it comes down to the fact that DO schools are so expensive that I'm considering doing everything I can to get into my state school - even though I think that some of the DO schools in my area actually do a better job of education primary care physicians.

 

[BigRedPingpong]

imho, you have a shot at kansas with your stats.

 

[DocWagner]

Yeah, most DO schools are way friggin expensive.

My piece of advice, if you are very much INTO being an osteopathic physician, in understanding and utilizing OMT, and wishing to further osteopathic medicine...become a DO.
If you want to be a Physician, plain and simple...then choose the least expensive route and go to a State school. Being mindful of your debt is very responsible, and does take weight off your shoulders.

 

[calcrew14]

Adrian?s opinion is appropriate in your case. You should apply for both schools in the first year. Eventually, in case you would have to go to DO school, the financial impact should not be much different. The high earning power that comes a year sooner can balance out the premium expenses in both principle and interest.

I heard of someone in Kansas who got in the state MD school with MCAT of 26. It took her an extra year as a worker in a Dentist?s office though. She did not have to do anything else to redecorate her application.

It should not take you more than two years to get in a medical school there.

 

[stoic]

Calcrew,

Just to be clear your feeling is that it's not worth applying only to my state school 1 year and then if not admitted to then apply MD/DO the next? You think I should apply MD/DO this year and go where accepted (the cheapest place accepted, that is)

Because this post is concerned only with the financial aspect of MD vs. DO, can you lay out how this would be to my advantage?

I should add that one concern I have about apply both MD and DO in my first cycle with the intention of reapplying if I don't get in MD is having to turn down a DO acceptance and then reapply to that school the next year. If I was on that adcom, I'd probably tell someone who did that to go **** themselves.

 

[(nicedream)]

I would do your current plan of applying to your state MD this year, and if not accepted, both MD and DO schools next year. I think going to the most inexpensive place, assuming the difference is over 10 grand/year, is a good idea.

I would add one thought though. I think all the talk about many DO schools being expensive is rather silly. Of course they're expensive, they're private. They are no more expensive than private MD schools. It's not MD vs. DO, it's public vs. private.

 

[Eyecon82]

Sorry, I got lazy by the end of the post and left some stuff out. If I didn't get into the MD school first year, the second year I would apply MD and DO and if only holding a DO acceptance, I would definately go DO. Keep in mind that I'm looking at this from a purely financial stand point. I don't care which set of initials follow my name in the future. It is scary to think that I may not get in anywhere - MD or DO - my second application cycle. However, I believe that my the second year around would be stronger to both DO and MD schools. It also scary to be 200k+ indebt (which I would be with living expenses factored in) and making 120K a year as a 30 year old with no retirement or net worth.

I posted this thread to help give a "face" to the bitching that's been going on recently about the cost of DO education. Partially, I'm wanting to show that DO schools are potentially hurting themselves by charging such high tutions. If a DO school was say, 10k - instead of 20k, more expensive per year, I might not even be having this discussion. Maybe DO schools need every penny of that 35k per year, maybe they don't need it. That's not what I want to talk about here. Basically it comes down to the fact that DO schools are so expensive that I'm considering doing everything I can to get into my state school - even though I think that some of the DO schools in my area actually do a better job of education primary care physicians.

think of it this way....if you apply to that 1 md school and get rejected, you have wasted a whole year.....and if you really think about it long-term (which everyone should when it comes to financial investments) you're losing $200,000 (depending on your specialty).....

 

[calcrew14]

Calcrew,

Just to be clear your feeling is that it's not worth applying only to my state school 1 year and then if not admitted to then apply MD/DO the next? You think I should apply MD/DO this year and go where accepted (the cheapest place accepted, that is)

Because this post is concerned only with the financial aspect of MD vs. DO, can you lay out how this would be to my advantage?

I should add that one concern I have about apply both MD and DO in my first cycle with the intention of reapplying if I don't get in MD is having to turn down a DO acceptance and then reapply to that school the next year. If I was on that adcom, I'd probably tell someone who did that to go **** themselves.

You have mentioned that letters behind your name are not important. If so, then you should not worry about $. In any scenario, it is not going to cost you more, unnecessarily, even when you don't have the luxery of choice.

You apply for both schools in the first year trying to get both acceptances. In case of success at both or only at the state MD school, go to state MD school. Or take the lone acceptance at DO school if it is the only choice available. Don't wait another year. It doesn't even have to be the cheapest DO school. But the one in Iowa sounds good and less expensive. The one year that you save will worth as much as the earning in the first year post residency. (You don't have it if you decide to go to MD school a year or more later.) In case of no acceptance at all, apply to both school again the following year. I don't see how you can re-apply for a school that you have denied its acceptance before.

 

[JohnnyOU]

stoic,

I'd advise going the MD route if possible, and just learning any OMM techniques on the side that you genuinely feel you will want to use.

You can learn that stuff from a book, maybe some health-related course, or even just have a DO friend so you any of that stuff you like.

I didn't read every word of what you wrote, but you could always apply to both MD and DO, take the DO if you're rejected at MD and accepted at the other.

Lots of options.

J~

 

[OnMyWayThere]

Your current plan is great and you should get into your state school...

Best of luck

 

[group_theory]

this is more of a private v public debate

Unless money is extremely tight, why not just apply to both your state MD school AND some DO schools (up to you how many). This might add a few hundred dollars to the process.

But as calcrew14 have stated, if you get accepted to DO (and not state MD), you will gain 1 extra year of earning potential compare to your plan. If you get accepted to MD and DO during your first try, you're only down a few hundred dollars in application fees.

That extra year's salary may be viewed as ~$100k for first year post-residency, OR it may be viewed as an extra year of work before retirement age where you are earning senior-partner salary (profit-sharing) where, depending on location and type of practice, could be more significant than $100k.

basically to sum it all up (without the math), the earning potential for physicians (DOs and MDs) is so great that missing one year of work to try to gain in-state tuition may not be worth it in the long run (but it does give you peace of mind knowing that you don't owe $100k+ in loans)

 

[box29]

You have mentioned that letters behind your name are not important. If so, then you should not worry about $.

I understand the financial worries of medical school but your main worry right now is to get an interview and then get accepted somewhere. I completely agree that if your dream is to become a physician, then money should not be the main thing stopping you. Where there is a will, there is a way. Have you looked into scholarships like the military or national health service core? Anyways, if you take out loans to go to a private school, you'll be in the same boat as the majority of medical students. Getting into your state school with that tuition is a definite PLUS but you never know. IMO, applying to one school is pretty risky and NOTHING in the application process is guaranteed. Applications to med schools have been increasing albeit slightly but I think you are taking a risk by applying to just your state school. Take a look at the MSAR book and see where you stand. In addition, I would contact the admissions office and see if you can talk to an admissions counselor to discuss your situtation and assess your competitiveness.

Perhaps you could just complete the second degree and not apply anywhere and get more ECs and clinical experience and then apply the following year with a better application. However, you would be wasting a year when you could have gone to some other med school.

IMO, I would apply to both DO and MD for this cycle. When I applied, I knew the costs were going to be high no matter what and that was something I just accepted and didn't worry about. The loan payments will be a pain but according to my financial advisor, as a physician, the payments will be manageable.

 

[Eyecon82]

stoic,

I'd advise going the MD route if possible, and just learning any OMM techniques on the side that you genuinely feel you will want to use.

You can learn that stuff from a book, maybe some health-related course, or even just have a DO friend so you any of that stuff you like.

I didn't read every word of what you wrote, but you could always apply to both MD and DO, take the DO if you're rejected at MD and accepted at the other.

Lots of options.

J~

hmm...i seem to disagree.....OMM is not something you can learn by reading a textbook....no matter how smart you are.....you learn it by practicing it hands on ...since omm is hands on..

its sort of learning to trying to learn how to drive by just reading "rules of the road"...its not possible....you can obviously pass the written part of the driving test with a 100%...but if you never sat behind the wheel of a car....you're going to crash

 

[calcrew14]

..........

Hey thanks for saving me!

 

[Eyecon82]

I understand the financial worries of medical school but your main worry right now is to get an interview and then get accepted somewhere. I completely agree that if your dream is to become a physician, then money should not be the main thing stopping you. Where there is a will, there is a way. Have you looked into scholarships like the military or national health service core? Anyways, if you take out loans to go to a private school, you'll be in the same boat as the majority of medical students. Getting into your state school with that tuition is a definite PLUS but you never know. IMO, applying to one school is pretty risky and NOTHING in the application process is guaranteed. Applications to med schools have been increasing albeit slightly but I think you are taking a risk by applying to just your state school. Take a look at the MSAR book and see where you stand. In addition, I would contact the admissions office and see if you can talk to an admissions counselor to discuss your situtation and assess your competitiveness.

Perhaps you could just complete the second degree and not apply anywhere and get more ECs and clinical experience and then apply the following year with a better application. However, you would be wasting a year when you could have gone to some other med school.

IMO, I would apply to both DO and MD for this cycle. When I applied, I knew the costs were going to be high no matter what and that was something I just accepted and didn't worry about. The loan payments will be a pain but according to my financial advisor, as a physician, the payments will be manageable.

i agree with you a 100%

 

[specialkay]

I'm really confused by all this tuition talk.

According the this website - Osteo schools hover around $30K/year at most. A few way above and a few way below.

http://aacom.org/colleges/tuition.html

I guess I'm just confused at the assumption that medical school should be/is cheap. You pay to play, essentially. If it was cheap everyone would go and it would be even harder to get in. We're also *hopefully* paying for top notch professors and facilities. I'm just a subscriber to you get what you pay for.

 

[Robz]

I was in a similar yet different aspect when I was applying last year. Just some fun...I had a 3.5 UG GPA from UT, a 4.0 Post bacc form UT, and a 4.0 current MPH GPA from UT at the time. I also had a 26 MCAT.

The kicker was I had a first shot at college that kicked me in the gut with a 2.01 GPA.

Now, I looked all over and what I decided was a little similar to what has been discussed here. Should I apply only to state schools and then if I don't apply to a list next year?

After much decision I decided that I would apply to a long list of schools both MD/DO and I wanted to find the school that was right for me.

BTW my tuition to UT-Memphis or ETSU would have been around 18K a year...in state.

I got waitlisted at both after my interviews...

Luckily I have a apartment that I lived at for a long time in Orlando and have FL residency criteria so that was a MAJOR reason I picked NSUCOM out of all my DO/MD acceptances as well. Plus the beach is awfully nice..and the women...whew...oh wait I got distracted there...this is about medicine and money.

The instate tuition for NSUCOM for me would be around 22K...so about 4K difference.

If for some reason they don't give me instate (they decide in July) would I contemplate my options...sure I would. Money is a great equalizer.

There are hard decisios to be made. In the end I decided that I wanted to best education and my compensation at the end of the road will more than make up for it. I would rather go though now than wait another year with ABSOLUTLY NO PROMISE of getting in then either. I mean I feel good cause I interviewed well at the schools I was waitlisted at but next year is a new ball game...what if everyone that applied had a 32 MCAT and a 3.8 GPA and resuced babies in the congo...then your s&*% outta luck there bud....no matter what ...............PLUS you lost a year in the process!

I say applied to where you WANT to go now...don't shoot yourself in the foot. Its what...a couple extra hundred bucks to get through the process. I think being smart is a good way to be when its your future...

in the end its ultimately your decision. If your cool with possibly not getting in this year (hey you may!) and working or taking more classes...then awesome. You have to follow your dreams...I know I did and now I am entering school this fall. I couldn't be more excited.

 

[LP1CW]

Money really shouldn't be much of an issue. If you look, you'll find ways to have your loans forgiven or to join a practice that will assume a considerable amount of your debt.

You should apply this year to MD and DO programs and then choose which one is the best fit. Spending another year as an undergraduate is not a good option. My guess is that there is a deeper reason for you not wanting to go the route of DO. I'm thinking that you feel a bit more competitive now and you're viewing it as less than. Maybe I'm wrong, but something about this post seems off.

So, be honest, if both schools cost you the same, which would you choose?

 

[r90t]

Apply both. If you get accepted to a DO program you can always turn it down. You can also do alternative loan repayment options. Multiple applications will at least give you the option to turn down a program due to cost, rather than sit on the sidelines waiting to get in. Also, what do you plan on doing during that one year off, if you don't get into a state school? You can always work your tail off, live at home and save as much money as you can to cover the difference in tuitions.

I agree that 1 year of lost physician income is substantial. Figure it a minimum of 100k for FP and upwards of 500k+ for certain specialties.

 

[DrDad]

This is one of those situations when you should apply to any and all that you are able to afford to apply to... It will take extra work, but you are more likely to get in somewhere.... Apply to both is my advice... further, there are scholarship programs for people that want to do primary care.... especially rural! therefore, you may not even really be looking at the drastic difference...

I am in process of receiving a scholarship that pays for my entire education with stipend... and only have to work year for year.... four years service vs. ~200K of debt --- EASY DECISION>>>>

I know you will do the right thing.... good luck!

 

[stoic]

My guess is that there is a deeper reason for you not wanting to go the route of DO. I'm thinking that you feel a bit more competitive now and you're viewing it as less than. Maybe I'm wrong, but something about this post seems off.

So, be honest, if both schools cost you the same, which would you choose?

Hmmm... I worked from 8am yesterday to 12:30am today, so I don't have a lot of energy for tact left. So I won't try. I made this post to consider my situation from a purely financial perspective - ego's and reptuation be damned. I take offense to being psycho-analyzed over the internet. My ideal school is KCOM. I grew up in a small town, I want to practice in a small town and think that the best way for me to learn medicine is in a smallish type of town (IE Kirksville). Be this as it may, it cannot be denied that KCOM would cost ~20k per year more than my state school. I would be stupid not to at least stop and consider whether or not this extra money is a wise "investment" when there is a chance I could go to KU for a lot less (even including an extra undergrad year that might raise my chances for admission). Right now I'm strongly leaning towards applying MD/DO this year, but I've come to SDN with my thoughts for feedback (which I appriciate - when it focuses on the question at hand).


In the end, I feel more ready to move onto med school than to spend an extra year as an undergrad. Overall my desired med schools are (in order) 1.KCOM 2.UHS 3. KU. Even though KU is at the "bottom" of my list, if I were to get in at KU and KCOM (or UHS - my number 2 school), it would be a really a tough decision - on that I couldn't even pretend to make withought actually being in that position.

The discussion of applying only to KU this year is something I feel is worth considering. Strictly for financial concerns, I still think it makes sense. However, as many have pointed out, this issue is much more complicated thatn money alone. The smart money goes on me applying DO/MD this year.

 

[LP1CW]

Stoic, I apologize for psychoanalyzing you. I can't help it. I'm Jewish. That is what my family does.

I think you'll arrive at the right decision for you. Like many people have said, you can and will find ways to fund your education. You might get a scholarship or apply for the NHSC especially if you're thinking about primary care.

Naturally, I would choose to go the route of MD for academic reasons. What I mean is: If you want to teach in an academic setting, do research or specialize the MD might make it easier. I'm not saying you can't do it as a DO, but I think some places still favor MD's. But either way, I think MD and DO will serve you well. It's about getting the residency that you want.

Good luck.

 

[Robz]

Stoic, I apologize for psychoanalyzing you. I can't help it. I'm Jewish. That is what my family does.

 

[glamvamp18]

Apply to both, give it all you've got, man! At this point all you can do is try. If you think you've got it, got what it takes to be the best doctor you can be, then by all means you should apply and make them see you for who you are. If, heaven forbid, nothing pans out, then you at least have contacts and resources at the schools to advise you on weak points in your application and what to do next. Unfortunately, the application process takes dollars to earn dollars later on down the road. Doing applications (paying for them) is an investment in your future. And since you're talking about the money anyway, don't you think it would be wiser to apply to all applicable programs now rather than wait and sit out a couple or three more years, pay rent, work jobs, pay for extra classes ... when you could have been in medical school and get through that much sooner and start earning your living. Don't put it off, I say. You never know until you try.

Good luck.

 

[gr8n]

-7k+(15k x 4yrs)= ~70k for the cost of medical education and extra undergraduate year.

-If I were to go directly to DO school the cost of my medical education would be ~140k (35k x 4yrs).

The numbers are striking. A seventy thousand dollar difference is particuarly significant to someone who wants to go into primary care and is looking about making around 120k a year in practice.

Don't worry about this difference, just hold off on buying your dream home for a little while

gr8n
LECOM-Bradenton
c/o2008
"Can't spell doctor without the D.O."

 

[sophiejane]

We're also *hopefully* paying for top notch professors and facilities. I'm just a subscriber to you get what you pay for.

All state-funded schools in Texas, MD and DO, are about the same tuition. This does not mean there aren't differences in the education you receive--it's just a matter of a legislative decision. The fact that I pay $6500 a year and someone at say Pikeville (I don't know the exact numbers) pays triple that does not mean their education is triple the quality of mine.

This is nothing like a "get what you pay for" situation.

 

[sophiejane]

...also, Stoic, not to burst your bubble...but I know some folks who had rude awakenings after the MCAT when their practice test scores didn't come so close to the real thing.

I am sure you did just fine, but I have found after a year of medical school tests that it helps to prepare yourself psychologically for the worst! (I was raised Catholic, so I had to throw in my own bit of psychoanalysis--can't let my Jewish friends have all the fun!)

 

[MDmiracle]

Money really shouldn't be much of an issue. If you look, you'll find ways to have your loans forgiven or to join a practice that will assume a considerable amount of your debt.

You should apply this year to MD and DO programs and then choose which one is the best fit. Spending another year as an undergraduate is not a good option. My guess is that there is a deeper reason for you not wanting to go the route of DO. I'm thinking that you feel a bit more competitive now and you're viewing it as less than. Maybe I'm wrong, but something about this post seems off.

So, be honest, if both schools cost you the same, which would you choose?

You noticed that to. I think all of the " if you don't get in to an MD school, go DO" is a bunch of garbage. Also, at the beginning of this thread the OP talked about how he was into the DO philosophy and OMM, but then he/she goes on to say that if they don't get into to a MD then they'll apply DO it doesn't make any sense. Go with where you'll be happy and screw the money. As a PCP you'll be making 120K or so that is not chump change. It's not like you'll have 200K debt and be making 50K a year. Personally, I think that if you really love the DO thing so much then go that route and screw everything else. If your not happy at a MD school then how much does that 60K in savings really mean. I guess what I'm trying to say is Do you really think that when your in class you will think about that money at all, No. Do you really think that if your miserable because you're going to an MD school that you'll say to yourself "this sucks, but hey i'm saving 60K" No, you won't. Personally i think the extra 60K is worth it if you go to somewhere you're happy.

I have had the same discussions with my father, but in the end you're the one who has to learn the material and do the work. Money is not and should not be a major factor in the decision on where to go to school. Only if you have acceptances at multiple schools that you feel the same about should money come into the picture. I say apply to all of the schools this cycle and see where you are. Yes this is alot of money, but time is more important. Good Luck, and I hope that you get into the school that's right for You.

Sorry about the rant.

 

[calcrew14]

I have a second thought. What if the state MD school follows the trends in CA and VA by increasing tuition fee, would that have any effect on your parents? opinion? I guess not. Looks like someone there would prefer the MD school. Remember that both of your parents are well to do and financially knowledgeable. They know what you can afford to do. You might want to talk to both of them again. They know best.

 

[Robz]

...also, Stoic, not to burst your bubble...but I know some folks who had rude awakenings after the MCAT when their practice test scores didn't come so close to the real thing.

You bet your ass thats right. I consistantly got above a 30 and usually in the 32-35 range.

On the real test....a pulled a 26. I was cheesed but I did my best on it as I originally got a 22 on my first MCAT.

looking back now I wish I had two sections regraded, oh well I'm in and I'll be a doctor anyways.

I'm going to crank the crap outta STEP one

 

[Robz]

Hey mdmiracle!

good to see you back around these boards.....

 

[stoic]

Thanks to everyone who has responded. I'd like to reiterate that I don't consider DO schools a "backup." This thread was create to address a specific financial senario.

Some of you have gotten on me for predicting my MCAT score. You're right, practice test sometimes don't do a good job of predicting scores. I might have bombed the test. But right now, those practice test as well as my impressions of my performance on the actual exam are all I have to go off of. I did well on practice test and I felt good leaving the exam, so I'm going to enjoy my prediction right now. I spent enough time worry about that test before April 17th... I'm not gonna worry about worst case senario's unless that's what actually happens. If I bombed it, that'll suck, but it will have little bearing on where I choose to apply... just maybe on how many times I have to apply

In the end I've decided that the majority opinion here was the correct one (at least for me). I'm going to apply to the med schools, MD and DO, that I would attend if accepted. If I don't get accepted anywhere, then another year of undergrad awaits .

 

[dcratamt]

Stoic,
Not to be a jerk, but I don't think your stats really even make you competitive for MD school. So this may help you to make a decision. It seems to me you would need like a 33 or higher MCAT to get an interview at MD school, and if on top of that you are a non-traditional student the deck is really stacked against you. The average overall gpa at KU is a 3.7. Go the DO route, pay the money and be happy.

 

[Robz]

Stoic,
Not to be a jerk, but I don't think your stats really even make you competitive for MD school. So this may help you to make a decision. It seems to me you would need like a 33 or higher MCAT to get an interview at MD school, and if on top of that you are a non-traditional student the deck is really stacked against you. The average overall gpa at KU is a 3.7. Go the DO route, pay the money and be happy.

I say apply and good luck...let the chips fall where they will.

Its hard enough getting into a school...don't cut your chances by any means.

I had a very rocky past...but my recent number more than made up for that....hope you did well and remember its the total package that adcoms look at.

 

[stoic]

Stoic,
Not to be a jerk, but I don't think your stats really even make you competitive for MD school. So this may help you to make a decision. It seems to me you would need like a 33 or higher MCAT to get an interview at MD school, and if on top of that you are a non-traditional student the deck is really stacked against you. The average overall gpa at KU is a 3.7. Go the DO route, pay the money and be happy.

Well, mostly I agree with you. I'm not competative for most MD schools. It would take a masters with a good GPA to make me competative at most MD schools. But KU is my state school. They take - by law - 150 out of 175 total incoming students from in-state. On top of that the focus of the school is very much rural health care - where my interest and experience lie. Initially I was only going to apply DO (because of my low overall GPA). However, the premed advisor at KU and the people in the admissions department at KUmed encouraged me to apply. They feel that my upward trend, difficult course load, large amount of extracurriculars, and experience with rural care in fact make me competative (obviously more so if I do well on the MCAT and less so if I do poorly). I know I'm not particuarly competative even for my state MD school - hence the talk of doing an extra undergrad year to make myself more competatve. But thank you for pointing out what was already obvious. I also have an open cut on my arm, would you like to rub salt in it?

I'm not in this to waste my time or money. I'm not going to apply to schools I have no realistic shot at being admitted to. Notice I'm not applying at other MD schools. I didn't post this thread to get other people's opinions on my application. Notice I didn't ask.


See, it's funny that this thread was started to discuss a particular senario from a financial perspective and that it's been twisted into people judging my application. Sometimes I forget why I steer clear of the pre-med forums on this site. Then I post a thread like this and get reminded.

Also, according to this site the average GPA at KUmed is 3.5 and the average mcat is 9.1. This site reports the average GPA as 3.6.

 

[stoic]

Ok, so it seems that my tone in my last post was somewhat venomous. I apologize. The past few weeks have been stressful, particuarly because advisors have been encouraging me to apply to KU. Applying to KU - or any other MD schools - had not been part of my paradigm until very recently. The advisor at my school has tried to impart to me that I do in fact have a realistic shot at KU. This guy is actually pretty good, and I trust his opinion. In case anyone is curious, he is also very pro-DO. Mostly it is important to him for students to get into medical school. He cares little where they go (except for the carribean... he is pretty anti-carribean.)

This whole thread was initiated because of the cost difference between instate schools and private schools. Though I'm not deathly afraid of carrying 200k of debt, it would be nice if I could knock that number down to 60k or so (by going to my state school). So that's what this thread was about: is it worth spending an extra 10k as an undergrad for an increased possibility of saving 140k long term? It's an alluring option because spending 10k to save 140k is definately worth it. If the extra shot at KUmed didn't pan out (and I made it into DO school during the second application cycle), my overall debt would increase from about 200k if I got in this application cycle to 210k if it took a second cycle. That's a 5% increase vs. the potential of ~60% reduction if I got into KU the second time around(percents coming from the cost of going to DO school as soon as I graduate). Of course this is a completely hypothetical situation right now. And I'm not considered the possibility of not getting in at a DO school. I want to make it clear that I don't think it's going to be a cake walk into med school. But for the purpose of this particular discussion, those are the assumptions I've made. Basically is it worth that extra year to increase my chances at KU? By taking a heavy course load and doing nothing else for an extra year, I could potentially raise my cum GPA to 3.5 (3.35-3.4 science). A key here is that I would have to give up many of the extracurriculars (that I enjoy tremendously) I engage in that cut into study time (research, club leadership, teaching, volunteering, shadowing, and my band).

Anyway, I've decided that to me, it's not worth it. It's just something I had to think about because my paradigm shifted. I'm not sure that I would want to spend an extra year in undergrad - and by choosing to apply to KU only, I would certainly stand a very high chance of not getting in during this cycle and then spending another year in undergrad. Obviously applying DO doesn't mean I'll get in this cycle, either. But If you look at it "by the numbers," my chances seem to be significantly higher at a DO school.

Finally, it's been mentioned that it's odd that I claim such belief in DO idealology and yet seem so willing to "jump camp." What I see as important qualities in a physician are qualities that DO schools seem to really stress in their application process. This doesn't mean that those qualities don't exist in MD schools. I've met a lot of MD's and DO's... and I've seen MD's with those qualities and DO's that lacked them. In the end I'm not really concerned with the letters behind my name. I like UHS and KCOM A LOT and if all things were equal, I'd rather go to either one of them than to KU... but all things aren't equal. Tuition, for example. Would it be worth it to save 140k and go to KU if I had to give up some of the things about DO education that I really agree with? I don't know. That's a bridge I hope to have the problem of crossing.

So I hope this post is less sour than the last. Peace.

 

[Robz]

I also have an open cut on my arm, would you like to rub salt in it?

Ouch.....I hear lye is good too.

See, it's funny that this thread was started to discuss a particular senario from a financial perspective and that it's been twisted into people judging my application. Sometimes I forget why I steer clear of the pre-med forums on this site. Then I post a thread like this and get reminded.

I think I posted this before but a huge reason for me picking NSUCOM (other than great facilities) is the fact I probably will be considered instate. 22K a year isn't bad at all and it definatly is an influence.

 

[dcratamt]

stoic,
Sorry about hurting your feelings. I didn't realize that you were overly sensitive as well as unrealistic. I also didn't realize that KU "only" required a 3.6 gpa. Hey in another 5 years you could have your average right up there, but remember time is money. And as for my reading skills......well let's just say I am already in a med school. :meanie

 

[stoic]

stoic,
Sorry about hurting your feelings. I didn't realize that you were overly sensitive as well as unrealistic. I also didn't realize that KU "only" required a 3.6 gpa. Hey in another 5 years you could have your average right up there, but remember time is money. And as for my reading skills......well let's just say I am already in a med school. :meanie

Oh, you're already in med school. I'm sorry. I didn't realize that.

Keep up the useful posting

*edit*
dcratamt,

I don't really understand where you're coming from here. I fully realize that I'm a borderline applicant for KU. I never denied that. In fact, the weak point in my application (in terms of GPA... caused by freshman year) is part of the reason this whole discussion exist. Would an extra year in undergrad increase my chances at KU? It seems that the answer is yes, particuarly considering the upward trend my grades have taken (and presumably would continue to take). Only very rescently have I even considered applying to KU. This change happened after advice from both the KU premed advisor and the admissions office at KU. What is unrealistic about how I'm approaching this? Would the extra year be worth it? The financial considerations of that question is the point of this thread.

It's also interesting that you seem to know so much about KU. KU is not exactly the Harvard of the midwest. It's an average school. As such, a lot of average students, some above average students, and some below average students get in here. I have friends there who got in with lower GPA's than what I have. I also have friends there who have really high GPA's. My advisors and the folks over at KUmed think I have a REALISTIC shot this year and I'm inclined to believe them over you.

Sometimes this forum really frustrates me because people either misinterpet posts, choose not to stay on topic, or choose to ignore the content and context of what's actually been posted.

 

[MoosePilot]

Add KU to your applications. What is the cost of one more application? Compare that with the potential savings and it's definitely worth a shot.

As for whether you're competitive or not... the average may be 3.6. What's the standard dev? How many 3.8s are getting in? Because for every 3.8, it takes a 3.4 to balance. Non-traditionals aren't always at a disadvantage. I'd love to compete against someone with my numbers straight out of school while I have 7 years, 2500 jet hours w/ 1000 instructor pilot hours to my credit. Yeah, I flew a 500,000 lb. jet into Baghdad last week in command of a five man crew. Any other leadership experiences you'd like to discuss? 'Nuff said, non-traditional students have experience that can help more than hurt.

Your patients aren't all twenty somethings that have been working every minute to get into med school. Anything that makes you a human being instead of a med-school-application-machine is a bonus.

Good luck, I got your question and wanting to save a buck is no shame.

 

[sophiejane]

Add KU to your applications. What is the cost of one more application? Compare that with the potential savings and it's definitely worth a shot.

As for whether you're competitive or not... the average may be 3.6. What's the standard dev? How many 3.8s are getting in? Because for every 3.8, it takes a 3.4 to balance. Non-traditionals aren't always at a disadvantage. I'd love to compete against someone with my numbers straight out of school while I have 7 years, 2500 jet hours w/ 1000 instructor pilot hours to my credit. Yeah, I flew a 500,000 lb. jet into Baghdad last week in command of a five man crew. Any other leadership experiences you'd like to discuss? 'Nuff said, non-traditional students have experience that can help more than hurt.

Your patients aren't all twenty somethings that have been working every minute to get into med school. Anything that makes you a human being instead of a med-school-application-machine is a bonus.

I love it! That is so well-said.

This is so true. Listen to people like this and not surly little self-possessed jerks like dcratamt (by the way, whenever someone says "not to sound like an X...", it usually means they are about to sound like an X).

I didn't mean to imply that you won't do well on the MCAT. I bet you did great and will get into KU, or KUMB, or wherever you are meant to be. You will be a great rural doc someday (go rural docs!! ) and provide great care and have a job you love and these concerns you have now will fade away.

Best of luck.

SJ

 

[haujun]

Believe or not I got into my state school--Medical College of Virginia, but got rejected at KCOM after an interview with following stats: 3.7 and 29 GPA... Getting into a medical school is liking an act of selling your painting to the fickle public.

In the end, I accepted the military scholarship and attending PCOM (no worries about cost.)

If I had not been accepted for this scholarship I would have not attend PCOM.

MS III

 

[calcrew14]

In the end, I accepted the military scholarship and attending PCOM (no worries about cost.)

MS III

I thought that everyone has a freedom of school selection with military scholarship. Did you apply to the Uniformed Health Services?

 

[LloydDObler]

Stoic,
Not to be a jerk, but I don't think your stats really even make you competitive for MD school. So this may help you to make a decision. It seems to me you would need like a 33 or higher MCAT to get an interview at MD school, and if on top of that you are a non-traditional student the deck is really stacked against you. The average overall gpa at KU is a 3.7. Go the DO route, pay the money and be happy.

Do you honestly believe that you need a 33 or higher on the MCAT to get into MD school? Take a look at school averages before saying something so discouraging.

 

[haujun]

I thought that everyone has a freedom of school selection with military scholarship. Did you apply to the Uniformed Health Services?

1. YES--I am just using the scholarship to pay for more expensive school.
2. YES. I didn't accept USUHS offer because I was not 100% sure that I wanted to retire from the military.

MS III

 

[sleepdoc17]

Also remember that there is a difference between the 'asking' price of medical school education and the 'actual' price. Many public and private schools are flexible on tuition. Simply asking for a discount will yield surprising results - especially if you are a strong candidate.

 

[costales]

Awesome. Another 10-year-old thread reborn.

 

[CSqueed]

Also remember that there is a difference between the 'asking' price of medical school education and the 'actual' price. Many public and private schools are flexible on tuition. Simply asking for a discount will yield surprising results - especially if you are a strong candidate.

Wow.... the OP may as well be your Dad.