Another New Orthodontist Graduates with $1M+ in Student Loans

[charlestweed]

In 2018, the ADA researched “the timing of decision to pursue career in dentistry” from applicants. About half of respondents said “before or during high school”. Think about that for a second. If you include by junior year of college (before age 20), that number jumps to over 70%. This motivates schools to increase their fees every year because they can project and see into the future (and know) that this is a very a difficult trend to change. If you had 70% of the applicants over the age of 30 - you would have the opposite effect, and schools would know they will have difficulty filling seats. Because someone over 30 is wise enough to know what “debt to income ratio” means.

I don’t disagree with what you said here. But at least the 20 yo students have 10+ more years (in comparison to the wiser older 30 yo students) to make money to correct their mistakes. It’s better to make mistakes when you are still young and healthy. IMO, dentistry and orthodontics are still worth pursuing with the following conditions:

1. You gotta hustle at the beginning to make money and to gain both clinical and business skills. This means working 5-6 days/week. Hopefully after a few years of hard work, you gain enough capital to hire people (assistants, associate dentists, in-house specialists) to increase productivity....and you no longer have to work 5-6 days/week. Most successful people had to through a lot of hardships and put in a lot of their own efforts before they started making a lot of money. Having rich parents who help pay for everything doesn’t necessarily guarantee success. It's hard for a person to become motivated when everything is handed to him/her.

2. Having a happy marriage. The spouse also needs to work full time. Having double income is always better. Working at the spouse’s brand new office that doesn’t have a lot of patients doesn’t count.

3. Must have your own office and keep the overhead as low as possible.

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[2TH MVR]

I see both sides of this dilemma.
On one hand ..... as @charlestweed has mentioned ..... nothing is free. Greatest country in the world. To be a dentist is not a right, but an opportunity to build on the American dream. Just earning a DDS/DMD is not enough. Your work is not over. Potential or necessary 5-6 day work weeks, multiple areas of employment, working spouse, less picky with insurance and low income patients, etc. etc. In other words .... make the situation work with hard work.
On the other hand .... I see a broken system. Not sure what the agenda is besides making $$$. As @Cold Front so eloquently posts ..... the debt to income numbers are not sustainable. All the data is moving in one direction. More dental schools. More dentists. More saturation. Higher DS tuition. The business of making dentists is doing great. Higher revenue every single year. Maybe those involved in this well run business should offer an IPO lol.

It's not that the GP with 500K of debt or the Orthodontist with 1,000,000.00 debt will not make it. Plenty are making it however you want to define "making it". But the current direction of higher tuition cannot be sustainable. Plenty of good information here on sdn to help those entering the dental field, but as you would expect .... most pre-dents do not have experienced economic knowledge regarding debt to income ratios. Pretty hard for predents, dents to play on the same economic field as big business: ADA, private dental schools, etc. etc. and big govt.

Something will happen as we can all see what is happening on the political front re: excessive tuition. Lets just hope they get it right for our children's and grandchildren's sake. Getting it right and govt/politics don't always go hand in hand unfortunately.

 

[gryffindor]

The ADA accredited 10 dental schools in the last 10 years. It’s about to accredit another school next year - Univ of Texas El Paso. They have allowed foreign countries to have ADA accredited schools.

During the 2018-19 academic year, there were 25,381 students enrolled (the highest level in history) in predoctoral dental education programs, up from 25,010 the prior year. Those additional 400+/- new students generated an additional $40M+/- between the schools in just 1 year. The class of 2018 had 6,305 graduates, up from 6,238 in 2017. Class of 2019 will be even higher. All these numbers help increase the ADA bottom line - more schools to accredit, more income streams, more ADEA application fees, and so on. Yet, the ADA thinks we/dentists are not paying into their cause with membership dues. They throw annual conventions, sell merchandise, offer disability and life insurances, get a cut from almost every dental toothpaste and other products with ADA logo on it, and many more other sources of income. It’s rotten from the head down.

In 2018, the ADA researched “the timing of decision to pursue career in dentistry” from applicants. About half of respondents said “before or during high school”. Think about that for a second. If you include by junior year of college (before age 20), that number jumps to over 70%. This motivates schools to increase their fees every year because they can project and see into the future (and know) that this is a very a difficult trend to change. If you had 70% of the applicants over the age of 30 - you would have the opposite effect, and schools would know they will have difficulty filling seats. Because someone over 30 is wise enough to know what “debt to income ratio” means.


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CODA is the one who accredits dental schools and residencies. I don't know why they are accrediting foreign schools, that makes no sense. I do know that at some point the discussion was about "why are they (ADA/AAO/CODA) allowing so many ortho programs to open?" The answer was that not allowing the programs to open would be a restraint of trade. So any program that scraped together the basic requirements to open an ortho program could open with "provisional accreditation" or something. Then they would have X number of years to get full accreditation. I think this applies to the opening of dental schools as well. Which is also why I said years ago on this board that I could just open an ortho residency with two lawn chairs in my garage. Actually I'm going to update that now because I have a two car garage so I could actually put in 4 lawn chairs if I opened today. Instead I put up with a lot of BS to run an orthodontic private practice as my calling in life.

 

[Cold Front]

I don’t disagree with what you said here. But at least the 20 yo students have 10+ more years (in comparison to the wiser older 30 yo students) to make money to correct their mistakes. It’s better to make mistakes when you are still young and healthy. IMO, dentistry and orthodontics are still worth pursuing with the following conditions:

1. You gotta hustle at the beginning to make money and to gain both clinical and business skills. This means working 5-6 days/week. Hopefully after a few years of hard work, you gain enough capital to hire people (assistants, associate dentists, in-house specialists) to increase productivity....and you no longer have to work 5-6 days/week. Most successful people had to through a lot of hardships and put in a lot of their own efforts before they started making a lot of money. Having rich parents who help pay for everything doesn’t necessarily guarantee success. It's hard for a person to become motivated when everything is handed to him/her.

2. Having a happy marriage. The spouse also needs to work full time. Having double income is always better. Working at the spouse’s brand new office that doesn’t have a lot of patients doesn’t count.

3. Must have your own office and keep the overhead as low as possible.

Being in debt at 500k+ in your 20’s vs yours 30’s - is still $500k, debt-to-income ratio wise. Having a decade head start should not be a reason to justify the rising debt and burden. The stress level is still equal, and I think it sucks to be in that much debt in your 20’s because those are the most developmental years of your life, you are still figuring yourself out - with 0 savings. An applicant in his/her 30’s is more developed and probably saved some money - and made a highly calculated decision to pursue dentistry with a full understanding on the high debt that he/she will embark on.

1. How long can the “hustling” be the answer with tuition rising every year (and the compounding interest)?

2. How guaranteed is finding the right spouse who will hustle with you? Is Happy marriage common?

3. Doesn’t owning an office increase the debt and make ends meet even more difficult? Is it for everyone? If not, then why would it make sense to the most grads with high debt? Ownership is an all time low because of the high debt.



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[charlestweed]

Something will happen as we can all see what is happening on the political front re: excessive tuition. Lets just hope they get it right for our children's and grandchildren's sake. Getting it right and govt/politics don't always go hand in hand unfortunately.

The government ruins nearly everything that it touches. I like the 2-party system. I’d much rather see gridlock in congress….the less laws that are passed, the better it will be….less out of control government spendings, decrease in national debt, less tax for the future generation. Obama gave us the stimulus package and unpopular healthcare law. Trump gave tax cuts for the wealthy people. None of these would have happened if one party controls the house and opposing party controls the senate.

"Govenment is not the solution to our problem. Governement is the problem." Ronald Reagan.

 

[charlestweed]

Just marry a neurosurgeon. Student loans disappear in 2 years.

Someone who is willing to work full time to support the family should be good enough. One of my referring GPs bought a dying existing practice about 3-4 years ago and she has done very well to turn things around. She doesn’t need to spend $1000+ every month to buy health insurance for her family because her husband is a middle school teacher and has great benefit package.

 

[charlestweed]

Being in debt at 500k+ in your 20’s vs yours 30’s - is still $500k, debt-to-income ratio wise. Having a decade head start should not be a reason to justify the rising debt and burden. The stress level is still equal, and I think it sucks to be in that much debt in your 20’s because those are the most developmental years of your life, you are still figuring yourself out - with 0 savings. An applicant in his/her 30’s is more developed and probably saved some money - and made a highly calculated decision to pursue dentistry with a full understanding on the high debt that he/she will embark on.

1. How long can the “hustling” be the answer with tuition rising every year (and the compounding interest)?

2. How guaranteed is finding the right spouse who will hustle with you? Is Happy marriage common?

3. Doesn’t owning an office increase the debt and make ends meet even more difficult? Is it for everyone? If not, then why would it make sense to the most grads with high debt? Ownership is an all time low because of the high debt.

My classmate, an ex-engineer, started dental school at 36. I was 22 yo at that time. He then went on to specialize in endo. Right after graduation, he bought a nice $600k house in Irvine, CA (which is now worth $1.5million) because he didn’t owe any student loan. I told him that with so much student loan, I didn’t know when I could buy a big house like his. And he told me “Charlestweed, when you are at my age, you’ll have a lot more than what I have now.” And he’s right. At 36, I had my own offices, had good paying corp jobs on the side, paid off my student loans, and much more.

1. Depends on how hard you work and how good of a business person you are. Different dentists have different skill levels and different motivations. Maybe 2-3 years for good dentists like you and Tanman…..and 6-7 years for dentists like me......and 10+ years for today new grads.

2. Don’t rush. Don’t just marry someone for his/her good look. My wife wouldn’t have married me if I was a loser, who has no career plan.

3. Like I said before, a practice doesn’t have to cost $500k to build. I built mine for $55k ($65k but the landlord gave me back $10k for tenant improvement)….and this was in 2018…I relocated my office.

 

[Cold Front]

My classmate, an ex-engineer, started dental school at 36. I was 22 yo at that time. He then went on to specialize in endo. Right after graduation, he bought a nice $600k house in Irvine, CA (which is now worth $1.5million) because he didn’t owe any student loan.

Charles, you should start every post with “back in 2001”. Thats 20 years ago, everything went up crazy since - specially dental education cost. Even your friend’s home is now worth $1.5M! So is mine, and I bought mine 2 years ago for $800k in a downtown of a fast growing city.

The point is... most people who are reading our posts need an honest advise. You and I (and few other SDN seasoned dentist friends) would be an anomaly today for the way we navigated around the profession. What % of dentists who are doing start-ups today would build their office for $55k? What % can graduate from an ortho program with low debt like you and 2TH MVR did? What % would accept medicaid even if they open a practice? Times have changed, it’s not like it use to be in 2001 anymore, heck, it’s not even the same as it was in 2010 when I graduated. I went to BU Dental with about $280k - and tuition has more than doubled since, and rising fast! You can’t plan on low overhead office and work 6 days a week as an undergrad student who is applying to dental school today or next 5 years. The debt is REAL and has a long term consequences. Plenty of other fields and jobs who pay 6 figures are on the rise... many pay as good as the average dentist (about $200k) and come with close to $0 debt in student loans.

We can go back and forth on this, but guess what - in 3 months, majority of schools will publish their 2020-2021 tuition and fees, and you know what? Cost will go up significantly again, I would bet all my savings on it if I could on that. They are making it financially more difficult for the next wave of pre-dents to have a decent life as dentists. There are plenty of new grads lurkers who read this discussion and probably too afraid to share their financial struggles - at least the ortho guy with $1M+ in student loans from Dave Ramsey show had the balls to step forward and show how bad it is for some dentists out there!



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[charlestweed]

Charles, you should start every post with “back in 2001”. Thats 20 years ago, everything went up crazy since - specially dental education cost. Even your friend’s home is now worth $1.5M! So is mine, and I bought mine 2 years ago for $800k in a downtown of a fast growing city.

It's true that everything was cheaper back then. But so were the salaries of dentists and orthodontists. Average associate salary for GPs was $300/day and for ortho was $800/day. Now, associate GPs make at least $600/day and associate orthos make $1200-1800/day. Practicing in saturated areas in CA in the early 2000s were actually harder than practicing in many rural areas today. There were already dental corps everywhere long before I graduated. I started my first office in 2006, which was about 2 years before housing bubble and recession hit.

The point is... most people who are reading our posts need an honest advise. You and I (and few other SDN seasoned dentist friends) would be an anomaly today for the way we navigated around the profession. What % of dentists who are doing start-ups today would build their office for $55k? What % can graduate from an ortho program with low debt like you and 2TH MVR did? What % would accept medicaid even if they open a practice? Times have changed, it’s not like it use to be in 2001 anymore, heck, it’s not even the same as it was in 2010 when I graduated. I went to BU Dental with about $280k - and tuition has more than doubled since, and rising fast! You can’t plan on low overhead office and work 6 days a week as an undergrad student who is applying to dental school today or next 5 years. The debt is REAL and has a long term consequences. Plenty of other fields and jobs who pay 6 figures are on the rise... many pay as good as the average dentist (about $200k) and come with close to $0 debt in student loans.

If today new grads don't know how to start a low overhead office, don't want to accept medicaid, don't want to work 6 days/week and on weekends etc, then it's too bad. Then they fail to meet 1 of the 3 conditions that I listed above. Then they can't really blame anyone else but themselves.

You keep saying there are plenty of other fields that pay better than dentists but you can't even name one. I remember you said working as a pilot...sure, it's a good paying job (if you can find one) if you don't mind working away from home and from your family. I'd rather work as a dentist and be able to see my kids after 5-6pm.

Below are the listings of the dental offices that cost less than $50k to start. Some offices don't even require you to pay anything....just pay the monthly rent and you are ready to advertise to bring in patients.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

There are plenty of new grads lurkers who read this discussion and probably too afraid to share their financial struggles

This.

I want some new grad from a school like Midwestern who owes $600,000 to tell these predents what their finances are really like. Like I’ve said elsewhere, NONE of these people ever come on here and defend their decision. And it’s not like there’re not plenty of people in this situation. A third of graduates from private dental schools owe $400,000+.

Better yet, I want a dental school dean from one of these ridiculously priced schools to come on here and defend it!

Big Hoss

 

[Cold Front]

You keep saying there are plenty of other fields that pay better than dentists but you can't even name one. I remember you said working as a pilot...sure, it's a good paying job (if you can find one) if you don't mind working away from home and from your family. I'd rather work as a dentist and be able to see my kids after 5-6pm.
[/ATTACH]

Well, It’s not just commercial pilots, but there is a shortage in many other careers - and many do not need higher education and high debt. There are close to 30 million jobs in the United States that pay about $100,000 a year and don't require bachelor's degrees. There is a shortage in many trade jobs like electricians, home builders, plumbers, engineers, etc that pay well over $250k a year - a big reason why home values have sky rocketed in many markets in this country, because labor is expensive. Tech industry is booming with plenty of 6 figure jobs. There are plenty of other skilled labor shortages - because most parents think a 4 years college (and professional school) and high debt is going to give their kids a competitive edge in today’s economy. I’m not implying that going to higher education is a bad idea, but it should not be viewed as a good financial outcome by default. If I focused on my side passive income businesses, I would make more than I do in dentistry.

By the way, those $50k offices for sale - they are all in 1,000 sft spaces. Majority of dentists would not work in such small spaces. Imagine one lives in 3-5,000 sft home - which most dentists do, but their office is 1,000 sft. That would not make sense at all.


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[Cold Front]

This.

I want some new grad from a school like Midwestern who owes $600,000 to tell these predents what their finances are really like. Like I’ve said elsewhere, NONE of these people ever come on here and defend their decision. And it’s not like there’re not plenty of people in this situation. A third of graduates from private dental schools owe $400,000+.

Better yet, I want a dental school dean from one of these ridiculously priced schools to come on here and defend it!

Big Hoss

All people talk about in the pre-dental forums about these schools are:

- “did anyone get an interview?”
- “Are you waitlisted?”
- “how was the interview?”
- “did you get in?”

What they should be discussing is:

- “how much will the tuition, fees and the compounding interest be after I get in?”
- “Is the debt sustainable?”
- “how will the high debt effect my other goals in life?”
- “will I regret being a dentist as a result of the high debt?”

It’s the blind leading the blind over there.


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[beannaithe]

It's true that everything was cheaper back then. But so were the salaries of dentists and orthodontists. Average associate salary for GPs was $300/day and for ortho was $800/day. Now, associate GPs make at least $600/day and associate orthos make $1200-1800/day. Practicing in saturated areas in CA in the early 2000s were actually harder than practicing in many rural areas today. There were already dental corps everywhere long before I graduated. I started my first office in 2006, which was about 2 years before housing bubble and recession hit.


If today new grads don't know how to start a low overhead office, don't want to accept medicaid, don't want to work 6 days/week and on weekends etc, then it's too bad. Then they fail to meet 1 of the 3 conditions that I listed above. Then they can't really blame anyone else but themselves.

You keep saying there are plenty of other fields that pay better than dentists but you can't even name one. I remember you said working as a pilot...sure, it's a good paying job (if you can find one) if you don't mind working away from home and from your family. I'd rather work as a dentist and be able to see my kids after 5-6pm.

Below are the listings of the dental offices that cost less than $50k to start. Some offices don't even require you to pay anything....just pay the monthly rent and you are ready to advertise to bring in patients.

If you take into account benefits and 401k match and PTO, there are a lot of jobs that end up close to making what a dentist makes without the student loan debt. Engineers, accountants, and software jobs are a few that come to mind right away. Also, take into account the difference between being a W2 and 1099 like most docs are and some of these jobs end up paying more. If you're looking at business owners, I'm sure some of the owners of larger trade companies (plumbers, HVAC, landscaping) have the earning potential of close to, if not more than, dentists. And that's without the $1mil+ investment in an education.

The first 2-5 years in practice should be for mentoring. Learning the ropes and how to treat patients, run a practice the right way, figure out their comfort zone, and figure out how to succeed. New grads shouldn't be thrust into an environment where they're expected to earn like someone who has been in the profession for 15+ years, knows what they're doing, and has also been fortunate and lucky.

As to buying a practice, there tends to be a reason why these leaseholds come up for sale like they do. The ones I see in my area are because the dentist couldn't sell their practice and they're trying to get out of the lease. So the $50k tends to be for a dead practice and old chairs. There tends to be a reason why these are passed over. This is like the scraps of what no one else wanted. Sure, you might be able to make it work and become wildly successful. Some do, a lot don't. But those should be picked up as close to free as possible since you're taking over the lease for someone else. In my area, anything even remotely profitable is sold to a dental corp as 15-20% over market value in cash. Anything they don't want hits the general market and tends to be overpriced. If they don't sell via that route, the doctor will sell the charts in a separate sale and try to sell the practice as a leasehold. The other alternative is that the dentist moved locations, which might be okay to buy and it might not. The best case scenario to find would be an older doctor who slowed down to where it's like a hobby practice and he decides to retire. Having some patients coming through and older equipment is a good place to start as long as the price is reasonable. You're absolutely right that new doctors don't need to do the $500k start-up with all new chairs and latest technology.

 

[beannaithe]

This.

I want some new grad from a school like Midwestern who owes $600,000 to tell these predents what their finances are really like. Like I’ve said elsewhere, NONE of these people ever come on here and defend their decision. And it’s not like there’re not plenty of people in this situation. A third of graduates from private dental schools owe $400,000+.

Better yet, I want a dental school dean from one of these ridiculously priced schools to come on here and defend it!

Big Hoss

They tend to post on DentalTown or the Facebook dental groups. I'm not sure why they don't post here.

Though, I agree. I want to see a dental school dean explain why tuition needs to go up so much every year.

 

[charlestweed]

Well, It’s not just commercial pilots, but there is a shortage in many other careers - and many do not need higher education and high debt. There are close to 30 million jobs in the United States that pay about $100,000 a year and don't require bachelor's degrees. There is a shortage in many trade jobs like electricians, home builders, plumbers, engineers, etc that pay well over $250k a year - a big reason why home values have sky rocketed in many markets in this country, because labor is expensive. Tech industry is booming with plenty of 6 figure jobs. There are plenty of other skilled labor shortages - because most parents think a 4 years college (and professional school) and high debt is going to give their kids a competitive edge in today’s economy. I’m not implying that going to higher education is a bad idea, but it should not be viewed as a good financial outcome by default. If I focused on my side passive income businesses, I would make more than I do in dentistry.

All those heavy lifting jobs (builder, electrician, plumbing etc) are more suitable for men. What about jobs that pay 6-figures for women? My patient, who is a construction worker, recently lost his pinky finger on his job. Will these builders, plumbers, electricians be able to continue to handle these heavy lifting jobs when they are in their 60s? The handyman who fixes things for my rental properties doesn't have any license. A lot of the licensed plumbers and contractors lost their jobs to the non-license guys like my handyman.

I don't think electricians and plumbers make $100k/year.

By the way, those $50k offices for sale - they are all in 1,000 sft spaces. Majority of dentists would not work in such small spaces. Imagine one lives in 3-5,000 sft home - which most dentists do, but their office is 1,000 sft. That would not make sense at all.

Wow, are today new grad dentists really that spoiled? Then all I can say is good luck with that "I want to live in a big 5000sf house and drive a BMW, but I don't want to work in a 1000sf office" mentality.

Apple, Google, Disney, Microsoft, Amazon were all started in the founders' garages: https://www.inc.com/drew-hendricks/6-25-billion-companies-that-started-in-a-garage.html

Below is the image of Steve Jobs' house where he started his business.

 

[charlestweed]

If you take into account benefits and 401k match and PTO, there are a lot of jobs that end up close to making what a dentist makes without the student loan debt. Engineers, accountants, and software jobs are a few that come to mind right away. Also, take into account the difference between being a W2 and 1099 like most docs are and some of these jobs end up paying more. If you're looking at business owners, I'm sure some of the owners of larger trade companies (plumbers, HVAC, landscaping) have the earning potential of close to, if not more than, dentists. And that's without the $1mil+ investment in an education.

None of these good paying jobs that you listed are stable long-term and are easy to find. There are only 60-65 dental schools but there are 1000+ engineering schools in the US. So it's much more competitive for the engineers to find good paying jobs. My brother-in-law is an ex-boeing engineer. He was laid off when he was only 55 yo. He is now selling solar pannels for a living. He has to rent out one of the bedrooms in his house, which he already paid off, to someone so he can use that rent money pay the property tax. His friend, who was also an engineer, got laid off at around the same time. Fortunately for his friend, his wife is a dentist, who owns a very successful practice....he is now helping his wife to operate the Cerec machine to make porcelain crowns and veeners in-house.

As to buying a practice, there tends to be a reason why these leaseholds come up for sale like they do. The ones I see in my area are because the dentist couldn't sell their practice and they're trying to get out of the lease. So the $50k tends to be for a dead practice and old chairs. There tends to be a reason why these are passed over. This is like the scraps of what no one else wanted. Sure, you might be able to make it work and become wildly successful. Some do, a lot don't. But those should be picked up as close to free as possible since you're taking over the lease for someone else. In my area, anything even remotely profitable is sold to a dental corp as 15-20% over market value in cash. Anything they don't want hits the general market and tends to be overpriced. If they don't sell via that route, the doctor will sell the charts in a separate sale and try to sell the practice as a leasehold. The other alternative is that the dentist moved locations, which might be okay to buy and it might not. The best case scenario to find would be an older doctor who slowed down to where it's like a hobby practice and he decides to retire. Having some patients coming through and older equipment is a good place to start as long as the price is reasonable. You're absolutely right that new doctors don't need to do the $500k start-up with all new chairs and latest technology.

Most of the practices (whether they are leasholds or offices that are owned by older dentists) that are listed for sale are dying practices. You have to work hard to turn things around. If one doesn't know how to make profit with such ridiculously low overhead, which is practically zero percent, then I don't really know what to say. Then this person does not cut out for dentistry.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

All people talk about in the pre-dental forums about these schools are:

- “did anyone get an interview?”
- “Are you waitlisted?”
- “how was the interview?”
- “did you get in?”

You forgot to add, “Will _________ school help me specialize?”

Big Hoss

 

[Cold Front]

I don't think electricians and plumbers make $100k/year.

When was the last time you called for an electrician, plumber or locksmith, or someone to repair your car’s windshield?

If they are self-employed, they make $100-500 an hour for basic service. They often charge for service call for just driving out to you, and are typically booked out for a day or 2. After hours service is even more. The average dentist (who makes $200k a year) makes about $105 per hour.

Also, I live in the Midwest and the homes here are bigger than your neck of the woods. Almost everyone has a basement - which is about 1,000-1,500 sft on it’s own. The rest of the house (kitchen, bedrooms, living area and restrooms) is easily 2,500 sft. Hence the 3,000 to 5,000 total sft range that I mentioned in my previous post.


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[charlestweed]

When was the last time you called for an electrician, plumber or locksmith, or someone to repair your car’s windshield?

Just a few weeks ago for a clogged drain for one of my rental properties. The tenants called the management company and the management company then called me. To save money, I never use the management company’s plumbers….. I just called one of my handymen to come in and he charged me $80.

If they are self-employed, they make $100-500 an hour for basic service. They often charge for service call for just driving out to you, and are typically booked out for a day or 2. After hours service is even more. The average dentist (who makes $200k a year) makes about $105 per hour.

According to this site, the average salary for licensed plumbers is around $50k. How Much Can a Plumber Expect to Get Paid?. And no, they are not usually booked out for a day or two. When my office’s vaccum line was clogged a few years ago, I called a local plumbing company and 15-20 minutes later, they sent out a guy to fix it with a hydrojet machine. Average dentist makes $200k a year but for a dentist, who has his own office, the sky is the limit.

Also, I live in the Midwest and the homes here are bigger than your neck of the woods. Almost everyone has a basement - which is about 1,000-1,500 sft on it’s own. The rest of the house (kitchen, bedrooms, living area and restrooms) is easily 2,500 sft. Hence the 3,000 to 5,000 total sft range that I mentioned in my previous post.

Since my offices are too small (my largest one is 1700sf and my smallest one is 1200sf), I have to store some of my ortho supplies in the garage of my 5200 sf home. I do all the supply orderings and they are all shipped to my home’s address. I occasionally made essix retainers in my garage whenever my assistant was on vacation. Working at home is always better.

 

[Cold Front]

I occasionally made essix retainers in my garage whenever my assistant was on vacation. Working at home is always better.

Charles, you are awesome for being ultra aware of your utilization of space, time and supplies. Something that’s very rare for a dentist these days. After work, I go straight to my home and crash. I spend first 60-90 mins to decompress - by watching my YouTube channels. I don’t bring anything from work with me at home - so it’s interesting that you bring boxes from your office to your house and even have the time to make retainers. There is no single box in my house, I’m big on anti-clutter - even though I live in a 3,000 sft home.


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[charlestweed]

Charles, you are awesome for being ultra aware of your utilization of space, time and supplies. Something that’s very rare for a dentist these days. After work, I go straight to my home and crash. I spend first 60-90 mins to decompress - by watching my YouTube channels. I don’t bring anything from work with me at home - so it’s interesting that you bring boxes from your office to your house and even have the time to make retainers. There is no single box in my house, I’m big on anti-clutter - even though I live in a 3,000 sft home.

Thank you. I actually enjoy doing these side works....they are my hobbies. I enjoy doing anything that helps save money for my business. That's the beauty of having your own office. You are much more motivated when you work for yourself than when you work for someone else.

 

[beannaithe]

None of these good paying jobs that you listed are stable long-term and are easy to find. There are only 60-65 dental schools but there are 1000+ engineering schools in the US. So it's much more competitive for the engineers to find good paying jobs. My brother-in-law is an ex-boeing engineer. He was laid off when he was only 55 yo. He is now selling solar pannels for a living. He has to rent out one of the bedrooms in his house, which he already paid off, to someone so he can use that rent money pay the property tax. His friend, who was also an engineer, got laid off at around the same time. Fortunately for his friend, his wife is a dentist, who owns a very successful practice....he is now helping his wife to operate the Cerec machine to make porcelain crowns and veeners in-house.

Most of the practices (whether they are leasholds or offices that are owned by older dentists) that are listed for sale are dying practices. You have to work hard to turn things around. If one doesn't know how to make profit with such ridiculously low overhead, which is practically zero percent, then I don't really know what to say. Then this person does not cut out for dentistry.

The jobs can be long-term stable, depending on the field and where you're located. I have several engineers in my family and know many in friendship circles. Many are fortunate to have a long-term (10+ years), stable job with good financial growth and benefits. Some have fared as those who you know by losing jobs and struggling. It truly depends on the field of engineering.

You're right about most offices being sold by older dentists being dying practices. They tend to hit a comfort zone where they coast and end up spending more time hanging out with patients than churning. The problem with the people who are $1mil in debt is that they don't have time to turn things around. They need to come out of school and dive right into a high paying associateship (or buy an amazing practice) and be killing it from day one. Like you said, any dentist should be able to turn a profit with low overhead, but it's a skill that has to be learned (because it sure as heck isn't taught in dental school.) I think the crux of the issue is the cost of the education on the school end (why is it going up so much every year).

 

[ToothJockey]

All people talk about in the pre-dental forums about these schools are:

- “did anyone get an interview?”
- “Are you waitlisted?”
- “how was the interview?”
- “did you get in?”

What they should be discussing is:

- “how much will the tuition, fees and the compounding interest be after I get in?”
- “Is the debt sustainable?”
- “how will the high debt effect my other goals in life?”
- “will I regret being a dentist as a result of the high debt?”

It’s the blind leading the blind over there.


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The problem is anytime you ask any other question people always say "Wait till you get into dental school first then worry about this stuff"

They don't realize once you are already in dental school it's a little tough to backtrack.

 

[Cold Front]

The problem is anytime you ask any other question people always say "Wait till you get into dental school first then worry about this stuff"

They don't realize once you are already in dental school it's a little tough to backtrack.

I remember asking an interviewer or the financial aid person at Case Western 9 years ago... on how much the tuition will be for the class I was interviewed for? They couldn’t answer the question. All I got was “that information is not released yet!”. Meaning - “hold up there buddy! - we set the price once we have the class filled”. Interviews are done from June to February in a cycle, then - ONLY THEN, the tuition and fees information are published, around March or April.

Now I think about it, I don’t think you get that anywhere else. Where you commit to something and you don’t even know how much it will cost you. Granted tuition and fees goes up year to year as low as 2% to as high as 10% - but you will never know exactly how much it will go up until you pass the point of no return.


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[2TH MVR]

I don't know. Such a complicated situation. The best, most qualified predents always have their pick of the most sought after, least expensive dental schools. But even those cheaper schools are getting more expensive. The group of students that we are really talking about are those who had "no choice" but to enter an expensive dental school if they wanted to be a dentist. These predents would most likely be the least qualified applicants.

How do you tell a lesser qualified predent that they would be better off in another profession? Not easy. The solution to this problem lies either at the source which is the student themselves or the schools.

Gets even more convoluted. In state undergrad schools (like my own ASU, UOA and NAU) are increasing their tuition EVERY single year. I am paying 15-20% MORE INSTATE tuition for my 2nd daughter to attend NAU as compared to my 1st daughter who attended ASU. I had set aside the SAME amount in a college 529 savings plan for both daughters. Currently I will need to augment the account for my 2nd daughter due to increasing tuition. I would imagine that there are quite a few kids applying to DS that already have a sizeable undergrad debt which is sad.

Look at all the FOR PROFIT college preparatory schools. More money although mommy and daddy are probably paying for these schools.

The public schools will always tell you it's the budget cuts, less state money coming in .... therefore the higher tuition. Just curious how paying for college athletes is going to help this tuition crisis?

Tough problem. At this point ... the predent is the ONLY person who can make intelligent decisions on their future debt. Can't rely on the schools or the govt to help.

We're all discussing this. We know it's a major problem, but what is the real answer?

BTW. @charlestweed ...... no garage floor coating? I'm disappointed.

 

[AppalachianDentalBoy]

You forgot to add, “Will _________ school help me specialize?”

Big Hoss

Ivy apologists and lazy kids wanting the easiest way out. Newsflash hombre there are easier ways to make a great living than taking on 500K debt and not making an income until 32. Just go into finance already.

 

[Cold Front]

The public schools will always tell you it's the budget cuts, less state money coming in .... therefore the higher tuition.

A recent stat on student loans crisis mentioned that more than 3,000 people default on their student loans a DAY - and rising! 3 people defaulted while I was writing this post.

The government is spending money to make refinancing the high debt easier, reduce origination fees, and simplify repayment options. What’s that going to accomplish if schools are raising their tuition and fees higher every year - while expecting a long line of warm bodies with blank checks from the government?

It’s a generation failure.

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[charlestweed]

We're all discussing this. We know it's a major problem, but what is the real answer?

I am afraid there is really no solution. The government is too big and powerful and we cannot do anything about it.... they will keep giving out the students blank checks. And the schools' deans don't need to come on here to explain why they raise tuitions every year because there are plenty of students who are desperate to get in. So we can only do things that are within our reach:

1. Encourage your kids to work hard in HS school to get good grades so they can get into a cheap local university or get a full ride scholarship to more expensive school. Having a debt-free undergrad education will give them more options later on. But if your kids are stubborn, don't want to listen to you, and want to move far away for college, then start saving now....and pray.

2. Don't go to college, don't go to dental school, and work as a plumber, electrician, nail manicurist, waiter/waitress, dental assistant etc. These jobs are probably better than graduating from college with a useless social science degree + $100-200k in student loan.

3. Work hard. If you want to become a dentist and be your own boss, you have to make a lot of money to pay back the ridiculously high debt amount. If working 6 days/wk and living like a poor college student (no house, driving a Huyndai, living with the parents or renting a tiny appartment etc) 3-5 years after graduation are not something that you want to do, then don't be foolish to take out $600k/$1million loans to become a dentist/orthodontist. Working 3 days/week at a 2-month old office that has no patient is not considered working hard. Choose option #2 instead.

4. I think RN (registered nurse) is a good career option if you don't mind working long hours and on weekends....if you don't mind working under the supervision of someone else. It only takes 4 years and you get paid $100+k a year. It's a very stable job. Many of my son's friends' parents are nurses and they put their kids in expensive private middle schools and high schools.

BTW. @charlestweed ...... no garage floor coating? I'm disappointed.

I had though about it before we moved in because most of our neighbors did it. But then I decided not to because to me, the garage is my least favorite area of the house and it's ok to be messy and dirty.

 

[Anondds87]

Theres so much blame on our generation for taking out huge loans. But the reality is it wasnt our decision.

Our wholes lives our parents told us "work hard get good grades become a Dr". So we did that. And no one was paying attention to loans because it would still be worth it. Our parents still encouraged us to be dentists and it is so competitive that they were happy for us to get in anywhere. No one ever said to me "dont accept your dentistry acceptance unless it's a cheap school".

And then we get to today's age where dentists arent making as much as the previous generation and the loans are a serious issue. And boomers have the audacity to say well you decided to take out these loans now you have to work 6 days a week to pay them off.

We didnt want this. If you could have told us 10-15 years ago "study hard and get your loans and be prepared to work 6 days a week to pay your loans" then I guarantee you not so many people would go into dentistry.

We made these decisions at 18 years old because of the information our parents were giving us. And it ended up being bad advice because the world changed.

 

[charlestweed]

Theres so much blame on our generation for taking out huge loans. But the reality is it wasnt our decision.

Our wholes lives our parents told us "work hard get good grades become a Dr". So we did that. And no one was paying attention to loans because it would still be worth it. Our parents still encouraged us to be dentists and it is so competitive that they were happy for us to get in anywhere. No one ever said to me "dont accept your dentistry acceptance unless it's a cheap school".

And then we get to today's age where dentists arent making as much as the previous generation and the loans are a serious issue. And boomers have the audacity to say well you decided to take out these loans now you have to work 6 days a week to pay them off.

We didnt want this. If you could have told us 10-15 years ago "study hard and get your loans and be prepared to work 6 days a week to pay your loans" then I guarantee you not so many people would go into dentistry.

We made these decisions at 18 years old because of the information our parents were giving us. And it ended up being bad advice because the world changed.

First, I am not in the baby boomer age group. I was born in the 70s and I came to the US in the mid 80s. My wife came to the US in the early 90s. Neither of us can speak perfect English like you. Second, I worked 6 days/week after graduation. And when I started my own office in 2006, I worked 7 days/week. Until now...even with most of the debts paid off, I still work on Saturdays and Sundays. So I have every right to tell you, current dental students, to work 6 days/week.

Of course, I didn't owe as much student loans as you guys and that's why I was able to buy a house and drive a nice car right after graduation. I hope this reasoning will make you feel better. Let's assume that you owe $500k in student loan.....your monthly payment will be around $6k/month. So in the next 3-5 years, if you work 6 days/week and continue to live like a college student, you should be able to cut the student loan amount in 1/2....and only have to pay $3k/month. With the extra $3k/month, you can buy a house or invest in something that helps you generate more money....and start enjoying life more. I know 3-5 years of delayed gratification is a long time. Well, the OS residents have to sacrifice 6 long years + working 80hrs/week.....the med students have to do at least 3 years of residency. Cheer up! you will be fine.

 

[ToothJockey]

People are preoccupied with getting in and don’t even evaluate if it’s even worth it.

Some people not all. I've been researching opportunity cost of dentistry since I began being interested in dentistry. I think that they should let curious pre-dents sign up to see what's posted on dental town. SDN is filled with a bunch of "I got a C in organic chemistry can I still get into dental school?" There's like a whopping 10 dentists on this site. Also unlike medicine, dentistry doesn't really have much solid published data on things like income, income trends, debt burden, busyness etc. We don't have anything like MGMA, all we have is ADA which people say is pretty flawed.

 

[deleted903013]

We made these decisions at 18 years old because of the information our parents were giving us. And it ended up being bad advice because the world changed.

Amen. It was a total trust scheme. An entire generation of adults told their kids they absolutely had to go to college to be successful. Most of these kids have never worked full time or understood any finance and don't even have a fully developed brain. Why someone would set up a system where we guarantee 6 figure loans to children no questions asked is absolutely beyond me. The system has failed my generation and nobody is doing anything about it. Not once in my entire educational journey did a single person ever so much as utter a word about debt. My generation is so enslaved by debt nobody is getting married or having kids. Something has to be done about this.

 

[gryffindor]

Theres so much blame on our generation for taking out huge loans. But the reality is it wasnt our decision.

Our wholes lives our parents told us "work hard get good grades become a Dr". So we did that. And no one was paying attention to loans because it would still be worth it. Our parents still encouraged us to be dentists and it is so competitive that they were happy for us to get in anywhere. No one ever said to me "dont accept your dentistry acceptance unless it's a cheap school".

And then we get to today's age where dentists arent making as much as the previous generation and the loans are a serious issue. And boomers have the audacity to say well you decided to take out these loans now you have to work 6 days a week to pay them off.

We didnt want this. If you could have told us 10-15 years ago "study hard and get your loans and be prepared to work 6 days a week to pay your loans" then I guarantee you not so many people would go into dentistry.

We made these decisions at 18 years old because of the information our parents were giving us. And it ended up being bad advice because the world changed.

I've been on SDN for almost 18 years. I remember posting many times "attend the cheapest school except maybe Harvard" starting around 2005 after I graduated dental school because I realized it was true. Now that ortho has way more residency spots compared to 15 years ago, I would withdraw the Harvard part and say "go to the cheapest school wherever." Tuition had not yet blown up to the levels they are at now (that started in 2007) so my advice was ignored often. I stopped posting it because pre-dents had "reasons." SDN has been here all this time since you were in about 6th grade given the "87" in your name.

ETA - I got accepted to two combined undergrad/DDS programs waaaay back in 1997 when the internet was not a real resource. One program was going to cost double the other program. Even back then, my dad (not a dentist) and I did whatever we could to research the career and if it was worth paying more for the pricier program. We called people and talked to them on the phone (gasp!). We found several orthodontists and dentists telling us to "go to the cheaper school" even at that time. So I find this "but our parents said so" line of reasoning to be ridiculous.

This is not a boomer thing. This is a "poor google research skills" thing. Like charlestweed, I am also not a boomer but I am *this* close to yelling "get off my lawn." I would hate to take this job working 6 days/week as a GP or an ortho for someone else. I would have done it working for myself pre-kids & family but I started my practice right before my first child was born. But I can't tell you or any other pre-dent not to take it because being in the 6 days/week club is an individual decision.

 

[2TH MVR]

Geez. I might be the only young Boomer here. So .. I'll let my hero Clint do my talking.

 

[charlestweed]

Money isn’t everything but everything needs money.

I didn’t plan to work 6 days/week when I was an ortho resident. But then there were several opportunities that came up that required me to work on Saturdays. I was young, healthy and had no kid….and was about to get married in a month. I didn’t want to lose those opportunities so I accepted all 3 job offers at 3 different corp offices. I had zero regret in making these decisions. I’d much rather deal with the stress of working 6 days/week (actually it’s not that stressful….ortho is really a cool job to have) than dealing with the stress of paying back the loan bills every month. A lot people have mental health problems like depression and anxiety because of debt and some even committed suicide. Pay off your debt as fast as possible and get your life back on track…don’t let the banks and the government, who gave you those high interest loans, control your life.

Currently, I work 22 days/month at 6 different office locations: 11 days/month at 4 of my own offices and 11 days/month at 2 corp offices. I work 3 Saturdays and 3 Sundays a month from 8 am-11:30 am. I am off every other Tuesdays and every Thursday. My wife is also off on those days and we usually spend time together (lunch, shopping, watching youtube videos etc) in the morning and then we both pick up the kids from schools in the afternoon. Life is beautiful. I am supposed to be off this coming Black Friday but yesterday, the manager asked if I could help cover for another orthodontist and I said yes to her….easy money is hard to resist.

 

[AONLINE]

I remember asking an interviewer or the financial aid person at Case Western 9 years ago... on how much the tuition will be for the class I was interviewed for? They couldn’t answer the question. All I got was “that information is not released yet!”. Meaning - “hold up there buddy! - we set the price once we have the class filled”. Interviews are done from June to February in a cycle, then - ONLY THEN, the tuition and fees information are published, around March or April.

Now I think about it, I don’t think you get that anywhere else. Where you commit to something and you don’t even know how much it will cost you. Granted tuition and fees goes up year to year as low as 2% to as high as 10% - but you will never know exactly how much it will go up until you pass the point of no return.

It’s strange that 9 years ago Case was trying to ignore the question regarding finances. 3 years ago when I interviewed at my state school where I‘m attending now, they had a 20-minute financial presentation outlining alternative ways that one can pay for dental school (they really encourage all applicants to apply for HSPS and other military programs). They also give us a detailed spreadsheet of the current tuition and fees for all 4 years of the program, and they told us to expect 3-5% increase for our cohort. So nobody is trying to trick anybody.


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[Cold Front]

(they really encourage all applicants to apply for HSPS and other military programs).
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So that’s the “strategy!”... did you apply to dental school with a plan to add 4-5 years of HSPS or Military to have a financial freedom? A decade of your life before “you” choose where to practice? The schools justify the pay off of their high tuition and fees by directing you to another conveyor belt? At least no one did that 10+ years ago.

Also, practice ownership is an all time low. Dentists shot themselves on the foot by living in other’s (schools, DSO’s, etc) dreams.




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[AONLINE]

So that’s the “strategy!”... did you apply to dental school with a plan to add 4-5 years of HSPS or Military to have a financial freedom? A decade of your life before “you” choose where to practice? The schools justify the pay off of their high tuition and fees by directing you to another conveyor belt? At least no one did that 10+ years ago.

Also, practice ownership is an all time low. Dentists shot themselves on the foot by living in other’s (schools, DSO’s, etc) dreams.
/]

The 4-year cost at my state school is $250k. I can see myself paying that off as a GP without the need of HSPS so I did not apply for it. Most of my classmates who want to specialize have those scholarships. I was also accepted to other expensive, so-called “prestigious” schools and I am very glad that I chose my state school instead. With that being said, I strongly advise people against attending expensive dental schools. In my opinion, dentistry is only worth it if you have a debt of under $300k. Am I correct?

If I recall in a previous post here on SDN you said you also owned around $250k when you graduated from your private school, correct? Successful dentists like you who “made it” inspire us and give us lowly dental students hope that we can also one day be where you are.

 

[Cold Front]

If I recall in a previous post here on SDN you said you also owned around $250k when you graduated from your private school, correct? Successful dentists like you who “made it” inspire us and give us lowly dental students hope that we can also one day be where you are.

I did. This was 9 years ago. Debt to income ratio was way better at my debt level (and yours).

Also, the economy was in recession when I graduated. Starting a practice came with a lot of good deals; my landlord at the time gave me $80k allowance towards the construction of the office, with a very competitive lease - $2,500 a month for 2,000 sft. I moved out of that space since and is now leased by another tenant at $4,500 a month (with no allowance), it’s no longer a tenant’s market. Everything else soared since; payroll, supplies, and other overhead expenses - while insurance reimbursements lagged or remained stagnant.

You have a good shot to survive the debt, but unfortunately for every one you, there are 3 or 4 other future dentists who will be shackled by high student loans debt for the majority of their career.


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[AppalachianDentalBoy]

It’s strange that 9 years ago Case was trying to ignore the question regarding finances. 3 years ago when I interviewed at my state school where I‘m attending now, they had a 20-minute financial presentation outlining alternative ways that one can pay for dental school (they really encourage all applicants to apply for HSPS and other military programs). They also give us a detailed spreadsheet of the current tuition and fees for all 4 years of the program, and they told us to expect 3-5% increase for our cohort. So nobody is trying to trick anybody.


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That's been the case at all the schools I've interviewed at. At UT Houston they even had a military recruiter give is a speech and description of the HPSP and similar commitment agreements.

 

[LGM]

At least the feds cut their rates. Let's hope the interest rate goes down by .1% next year.

Even though I'm being sarcastic, 0.1% interest rate-compounded-for $1M is a lot in long run!

 

[Cold Front]

At least the feds cut their rates. Let's hope the interest rate goes down by .1% next year.

Even though I'm being sarcastic, 0.1% interest rate-compounded-for $1M is a lot in long run!

Rates will go up sharply in the future - probably after the 2020 elections.


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[Cold Front]

That's been the case at all the schools I've interviewed at. At UT Houston they even had a military recruiter give is a speech and description of the HPSP and similar commitment agreements.

There are students who applied to the military to pay for DS and couldn’t qualify for medical reasons (see the guy in the video below). So it’s not a guaranteed scholarship, you still have to apply and will go through rigorous medical screening. [youtube]


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[Cold Front]

The opportunity cost of that one year is greater than what he’s POSSIBLY going to save by going to a POSSIBLY cheaper school next year. I however, congratulate him by actually crunching the numbers and encouraging others to do the same. He looks more mature than the average pre-dent by what I can surmise. I wish him well.

He did post another video a week later and decided to take the loan anyways. Probably close to $600k when he gets out. Let’s hope he doesn’t specialize and get that debt over $1M.


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[OrphanageCaretaker]

Longtime lurker here... What would be the best option for someone who won't have any student loans for DS and Residency (considering I want to specialize)? I want to run my business efficiently (partner up with a friend to open up a practice) maybe work for a corp and do teaching. Any solid advice.

 

[LFA20]

Money isn’t everything but everything needs money.

I didn’t plan to work 6 days/week when I was an ortho resident. But then there were several opportunities that came up that required me to work on Saturdays. I was young, healthy and had no kid….and was about to get married in a month. I didn’t want to lose those opportunities so I accepted all 3 job offers at 3 different corp offices. I had zero regret in making these decisions. I’d much rather deal with the stress of working 6 days/week (actually it’s not that stressful….ortho is really a cool job to have) than dealing with the stress of paying back the loan bills every month. A lot people have mental health problems like depression and anxiety because of debt and some even committed suicide. Pay off your debt as fast as possible and get your life back on track…don’t let the banks and the government, who gave you those high interest loans, control your life.

Currently, I work 22 days/month at 6 different office locations: 11 days/month at 4 of my own offices and 11 days/month at 2 corp offices. I work 3 Saturdays and 3 Sundays a month from 8 am-11:30 am. I am off every other Tuesdays and every Thursday. My wife is also off on those days and we usually spend time together (lunch, shopping, watching youtube videos etc) in the morning and then we both pick up the kids from schools in the afternoon. Life is beautiful. I am supposed to be off this coming Black Friday but yesterday, the manager asked if I could help cover for another orthodontist and I said yes to her….easy money is hard to resist.

this is great advice.

 

[2TH MVR]

Longtime lurker here... What would be the best option for someone who won't have any student loans for DS and Residency (considering I want to specialize)? I want to run my business efficiently (partner up with a friend to open up a practice) maybe work for a corp and do teaching. Any solid advice.

You're sittin sweet. Serously. No loans. As for your future. You're all over the place. GP or specialist? Practice ownership? Corps? Teaching? I guess with time ... you will narrow your focus. Some anecdotal advice.

Specialize if that is your passion. Each specialty has it's own set of advants and disadvants. Research them carefully before you choose a lifelong profession.

Practice ownership? Partnership? Even though practice ownership is on the decline .... I still believe practice ownership is the reason we all became dentists in the 1st place. You're in a great position ( no debt). I would be looking to start or buy a practice. Of course it all depends on the area. Urban vs. rural. As for partnerships. That's like being married and no SEX . Partnerships for the most part are very difficult. Now you're sharing all the business decisions with someone else. Not why I entered dentistry.

Corps? Corps are just another employment option. Corps are deadend jobs for the young dentists. You're young. No debt. Take some risk and buy that practice. Use a Corp job to augment your practice .... if needed. When you work for a Corp ... you're just trading your time for money. You're not building any equity in a business. Corp is great for us older dentists who want less day to day business hassles, but not for the younger dentists.

Teaching? If that is your passion. They don't make alot of $$$$. Work 5 days per week. You can always teach when you get old.

You're young with plenty of energy. Now is the time to control your destiny rather than have outside influences control your future.

 

[charlestweed]

There are students who applied to the military to pay for DS and couldn’t qualify for medical reasons (see the guy in the video below). So it’s not a guaranteed scholarship, you still have to apply and will go through rigorous medical screening. [youtube]

He is 29 right now (if I heard him correclty). What has he done since his HS graduation 11 years ago? Why couldn't he save any money during these 11 years? Many of my classmates, who took the non-traditional route, owed very little after graduation. The general dentist, whom I currently share an office with, was a non-traditional student and he graduated from USC 100% debt-free. When his sister was in dental school, he worked as an engineer to help pay for his sister's school tuition. When his sister finished dental school, he started dental school. And his dentist sister helped pay for his dental school tuition.

If you take the traditional route, at 26, you should earn a DDS/DMD degree. And at this guy's age, 29, you should have at least 2-3 years of working experience or even have your own office. And 30 years later (at 59), you should make enough with your salary of $150-200k/year (if you choose not to open your own practice) to pay off your student+home loans....and should retire comfortably if your spouse also works full time.

Since investing $500k for a dental degree is a huge amount of money, you need to set a clear goal for yourself as early as possible....as early as HS years. If you don't know what you want to do in the future, at least try to study hard, get good grades, and take as many AP classes as possible during HS. With good grades, your chance of getting into a cheap local university and earn a BS without any debt will be much higher. And with good undergrad GPA, your chance of getting accepted to a public dental school will also be higher....and NOT have to decline the Tufts' acceptance and NOT waste another year to re-apply like the guy in the video.

 

[Cold Front]

and NOT have to decline the Tufts' acceptance and NOT waste another year to re-apply like the guy in the video.

You don’t think Tufts will fill that seat either way? And that won’t prevent another new grad with a $600k in student loans graduating from Tufts?

At some point, this will lead to weeding expensive school applicants down to the desperate and least qualified to fill their seats, and push the highly qualified applicants to cheaper schools and make those schools even more competitive. This will eventually create a qualification requirements gap for both applicants and schools. There will always be a spot available if you have bad grades, you just have to take the big debt. Also, there will be applicants with decent-to-good grades who will not be competitive enough for cheap schools who will simply look for another career path because that will be better than choosing expensive school and high debt. Meanwhile, schools will increase tuition regardless of what applicants do.


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[gumtee]

How soon do you think someone can pay off 100k of debt as a periodontist working in the south?