Another New Orthodontist Graduates with $1M+ in Student Loans

[gumtee]

12 years.

How did you calculate this?

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[Anondds87]

12 years to pay off 100k? As in only paying off 8k a year? Surely this is wrong...

 

[gumtee]

12 years to pay off 100k? As in only paying off 8k a year? Surely this is wrong...

That’s what I thought. Unless they were being sarcastic.
How can one aggressively pay this off. Given it’s not as much as other students debt

 

[charlestweed]

You don’t think Tufts will fill that seat either way? And that won’t prevent another new grad with a $600k in student loans graduating from Tufts?

At some point, this will lead to weeding expensive school applicants down to the desperate and least qualified to fill their seats, and push the highly qualified applicants to cheaper schools and make those schools even more competitive. This will eventually create a qualification requirements gap for both applicants and schools. There will always be a spot available if you have bad grades, you just have to take the big debt. Also, there will be applicants with decent-to-good grades who will not be competitive enough for cheap schools who will simply look for another career path because that will be better than choosing expensive school and high debt. Meanwhile, schools will increase tuition regardless of what applicants do.

Yup. Cheaper schools are for more qualified candidates, who have worked hard all their lives.

This is what I have tried to say on many of my posts. The harder you work earlier in your life, the greater the reward you will earn later. With careful planning and good grades in college, you’ll have more choices to pick which professional school (med vs dent, public vs private, local vs out-of-state etc) you want to attend. Expensive schools are for people who either made poor decisions earlier in their lives (ie switching majors, dropping out of college, taking a gap year to travel etc) or for people who came to this country late and have to learn English. Hopefully, the people who attend these expensive schools, realize the mistakes that they made earlier in their lives and will try to correct them by working hard after graduation.

And you don’t stop working hard after earning your DDS degree. Working 6 days/week will allow you to save more, pay off debt sooner, and retire sooner than your classmate, who only works 4 days/week….assuming that both of you have the same business and clinical skills.

 

[Cold Front]

Yup. Cheaper schools are for more qualified candidates, who have worked hard all their lives.

Cheap schools are cheap relative to expensive schools. Today’s cheap schools are still expensive compared to 5-10 years ago, and will be 50% more expensive in 5-10 years relative to today’s cost. Unless you are applying this year or next couple of years, cheap schools will be $50-100k more expensive before compounding interest in relatively short time.

Cheap schools are ultimately using expensive schools as a cover to raise their fees and tuitions steeply as well. The number of schools charging less than $100k a year are shrinking every year, and those charging less than $50k a year will be non-existent in few years. Take state schools like U of Texas, U of Ky and Ohio State - “residents” are paying $45k-60k a year before compounding interest, and these are the “cheapest” today. Even the cheapest of cheapest - UConn is $40k/year today, soon to be $45k/year before the interest. All these schools were close to $10k a year just a decade or so ago. You are looking at close to $300k on average to graduate from them today. They too will be in the $400-500k club in 5-10 years - because they can!




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[averageasian]

Yup. Cheaper schools are for more qualified candidates, who have worked hard all their lives.

This is what I have tried to say on many of my posts. The harder you work earlier in your life, the greater the reward you will earn later. With careful planning and good grades in college, you’ll have more choices to pick which professional school (med vs dent, public vs private, local vs out-of-state etc) you want to attend. Expensive schools are for people who either made poor decisions earlier in their lives (ie switching majors, dropping out of college, taking a gap year to travel etc) or for people who came to this country late and have to learn English. Hopefully, the people who attend these expensive schools, realize the mistakes that they made earlier in their lives and will try to correct them by working hard after graduation.

And you don’t stop working hard after earning your DDS degree. Working 6 days/week will allow you to save more, pay off debt sooner, and retire sooner than your classmate, who only works 4 days/week….assuming that both of you have the same business and clinical skills.

These cheaper schools are just really hard to get into.

I graduated college with almost a 3.9 and a 23 on the DAT. I interviewed at all the ivies and cheap state schools. Got waitlisted at every single one.

Tufts was really my only option. Luckily Im doing the military so Ill be fine. But a fair amount of luck plays into getting into the UConn's and texas schools of the world. Its not as easy as working hard. Plenty of kids do well in school and smoke the DAT and still cant into these cheap schools, its not that simple.

 

[Cold Front]

These cheaper schools are just really hard to get into.

They are also smaller class size, in-state programs, and have plenty of highly qualified applicants from their undergrad programs applying to their schools - the preferred candidates. The odds are very low if you are OOS applicant - regardless of your grades.




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[charlestweed]

Cheap schools are cheap relative to expensive schools. Today’s cheap schools are still expensive compared to 5-10 years ago, and will be 50% more expensive in 5-10 years relative to today’s cost. Unless you are applying this year or next couple of years, cheap schools will be $50-100k more expensive before compounding interest in relatively short time.

Cheap schools are ultimately using expensive schools as a cover to raise their fees and tuitions steeply as well. The number of schools charging less than $100k a year are shrinking every year, and those charging less than $50k a year will be non-existent in few years. Take state schools like U of Texas, U of Ky and Ohio State - “residents” are paying $45k-60k a year before compounding interest, and these are the “cheapest” today. Even the cheapest of cheapest - UConn is $40k/year today, soon to be $45k/year before the interest. All these schools were close to $10k a year just a decade or so ago. You are looking at close to $300k on average to graduate from them today. They too will be in the $400-500k club in 5-10 years - because they can!

I agree that cheap public dental schools will eventually charge the same fees as what expensive schools charge right now because the government keeps giving out unlimited loans to students. But it will probably take another 10-15 years for this to happen. For right now, dentistry is still a very good career option if one can get into one of these current cheap dental schools and has zero undergrad debt. Dentistry may not be worth pursuing in 10- 15 years if the costs for attending public dental school rise above $500k. I believe graduating with debt amount of $400k for general dentists, $600K for specialists, and slightly more for OS should be fine, if they meet the 3 criteria that I listed on my other posts: 1. Having a spouse who also works full time. 2. Working 5+ days/week and 3. Owning an office.

Dental schools (and everything else) were cheaper 20 years ago. But new grad dentists didn't earn 6-figure income 20 years ago. They only made $65-70k/year. Engineers only made between $35-45k/year. My HS classmate, whom I carpooled with in college, majored in Economics and got her BS degree in only 3 years.... her first job paid her $29k/year and I thought that was a very impressive pay....I've always admired her for her intelligence and financial success.

 

[charlestweed]

These cheaper schools are just really hard to get into.

I graduated college with almost a 3.9 and a 23 on the DAT. I interviewed at all the ivies and cheap state schools. Got waitlisted at every single one.

Tufts was really my only option. Luckily Im doing the military so Ill be fine. But a fair amount of luck plays into getting into the UConn's and texas schools of the world. Its not as easy as working hard. Plenty of kids do well in school and smoke the DAT and still cant into these cheap schools, its not that simple.

You were just unlucky. You wouldn't have any problem getting into a cheaper school if you decided to re-apply the following year. It's good that you got the military scholarship and didn't have to lose a year to reapply. One of my relatives got slightly lower stats than yours and got accepted to UCLA.

 

[averageasian]

You were just unlucky. You wouldn't have any problem getting into a cheaper school if you decided to re-apply the following year. It's good that you got the military scholarship and didn't have to lose a year to reapply. One of my relatives got slightly lower stats than yours and got accepted to UCLA.

yep. Its working out so far though. I do sometimes think "what if?"; if i had gotten into a cheaper school and had free reign to pursue whatever right after graduation? But a part of me always wanted to serve in the military, starting when I was a young boy.

The huge bonus is after I get out of the military I can go to any residency on the GI bill or go to a free one and still get benefits. I have that to look forward too. I won't have tufts loans holding me back from anything.

 

[Cold Front]

I believe graduating with debt amount of $400k for general dentists, $600K for specialists, and slightly more for OS should be fine, if they meet the 3 criteria that I listed on my other posts: 1. Having a spouse who also works full time. 2. Working 5+ days/week and 3. Owning an office.

1. Thats almost a coin toss these days - finding the ideal spouse who can be supportive by working full time. Majority of my dentist friends have stay home wives who helps raise the kids (no grandparents around to help kids).

2. 5+ days = 6-7 days a week. I don’t know any dentist under age 45 working more that 4.5-5 days a week. It’s physically not sustainable for majority of dentists - debt or no debt stress. It takes a lot of motivation to do that - and with so many repayment options for student loans, a lot of young dentists ask themselves - why work so hard?

3. Ownership is declining. I would say high student loans are delaying marriage, home ownership and practice ownership - in that order. They are all big ticket items for most people, and each of those is becoming more and more expensive every year. Many people succumb to expectations pressure and make bad financial decisions. They are already making those bad decisions by getting themselves into a lot of student loans to be a DENTIST - and they are more likely to do that again with expensive weddings, expensive home and most likely an expensive practice ($300k+). Kids are also expensive - I guess that’s also another big ticket item.

It takes early planing to navigate around the financial potholes in life.


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[Cold Front]

View attachment 287999

Tufts has a big class, how many got a military scholarship?




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[averageasian]

Tufts has a big class, how many got a military scholarship?




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Only a few per class. probably <20 throughout all 4 classes.

Yep our class size is astronomical, only smaller than NYU. Makes you wonder; huge class X 100K per student a year.

 

[charlestweed]

It takes early planing to navigate around the financial potholes in life.

That’s correct. There’s something about the successful people that sets them apart from everyone else: they plan everything early. They set high goals for themselves and work hard to achieve them. They look at the challenges in a different way than most people. They don’t play the victim. They don’t blame others for their failures. Failures make them stronger.

 

[charlestweed]

1. Thats almost a coin toss these days - finding the ideal spouse who can be supportive by working full time. Majority of my dentist friends have stay home wives who helps raise the kids (no grandparents around to help kids).

When I looked for a right person to marry to, I didn’t go to the bars or night clubs. I went to my church’s meetings. I attended several events at the local dental, pharmacy, and optometry schools. I can’t marry a person who has no goal in life. And in order for this special person agrees to marry me, I must also show to this person I have something as well: a goal(s), a professional degree, same religious faith etc. Nobody wants to marry a loser who has no plan.

 

[princeafrica]

yep. Its working out so far though. I do sometimes think "what if?"; if i had gotten into a cheaper school and had free reign to pursue whatever right after graduation? But a part of me always wanted to serve in the military, starting when I was a young boy.

The huge bonus is after I get out of the military I can go to any residency on the GI bill or go to a free one and still get benefits. I have that to look forward too. I won't have tufts loans holding me back from anything.

View attachment 287999

Lol damn $70k tuition. Tuition alone at Colorado for instate is $41,000.
Colorado also gives instate students $12500 in grants which most students qualify for since they don’t work

 

[2TH MVR]

When I looked for a right person to marry to, I didn’t go to the bars or night clubs. I went to my church’s meetings. I attended several events at the local dental, pharmacy, and optometry schools. I can’t marry a person who has no goal in life. And in order for this special person agrees to marry me, I must also show to this person I have something as well: a goal(s), a professional degree, same religious faith etc. Nobody wants to marry a loser who has no plan.

Life doesn't always work out the way you planned it to. I tip my hat off to you that you planned, worked and lived (to this point) a financial strategy for life. Doesn't work for everybody since we all come from different backgrounds and different scenarios. Hard work will only get you so far. Usually some aspect of luck or market timing is necessary for most to do well.
Looks like you had a punch list for choosing the right spouse. Again .... life usually doesn't work that way. I met my wife in a bar 37 years ago. I married her because she was hot. She is a stay at home mom who has contributed more than her fair share to raising my children and keeping me out of trouble . I adore my wife for who she is .... not what she brings to the table.

No offense @charlestweed, but most of your posts revolve around MONEY and material objects. Nothing wrong with that. But my feeling is that while you are so focused on $$$$$$$$ that you may miss out on life's more precious gifts.

 

[averageasian]

Lol damn $70k tuition. Tuition alone at Colorado for instate is $41,000.
Colorado also gives instate students $12500 in grants which most students qualify for since they don’t work

Must be Nice!

Thats awesome though. Im from MA so UConn was my state school but they dont even come close to colorados tuition.

Going to a cheap state school just wasn't Gods plan for me. Got the waitlists at Stony UConn Michigan even with what I thought were strong interviews. I did get into VCU but they dont give in state tuition, its still super expensive as OOS.

 

[averageasian]

But to get back on topic, is it even possible to pay back 1 million in student loans? Compounding interest is no joke.

Also I find it pretty disingenuous that my school and others, tell students that the average debt is around 300-400k. My school recently just released a number of 350K I believe. Im pretty sure this includes people on HPSP and those who parents pay full tuition, so this number is lower than reported and just the principal (not accounting for interest).

You'll make 120 a year after graduation so you can pay this off in 3 years right? Thats what many believe.

 

[Cold Front]

I met my wife in a bar 37 years ago. I married her because she was hot. She is a stay at home mom who has contributed more than her fair share to raising my children and keeping me out of trouble . I adore my wife for who she is .... not what she brings to the table.

I met my wife while vacationing in San Diego 7 yrs ago. She is from Australia and she fully supported my ambitious goals (so far), and I didn’t expect her to bring money/income to the table - because I was making enough for both of us. She helps me a lot with the businesses, drags me to travel more and take a break from work, get me involved with many activities, and so on - that’s the beauty of marriage. To have a spouse who can have multiple roles; not just another income stream or a trophy wife, which I could have looked for and married.



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[Cold Front]

But to get back on topic, is it even possible to pay back 1 million in student loans? Compounding interest is no joke.

The answer is: it depends on the income.

I keep saying on these forums, that the debt to income ratio is what pre-dents need to understand to become a dentist (without a financial stress) these days. If you end up making $1M a year as a dentist, $1M student loans is not terribly bad. But if you will make $400k a year or less, then $1M debt is very bad.




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[AONLINE]

Must be Nice!

Thats awesome though. Im from MA so UConn was my state school but they dont even come close to colorados tuition.

Going to a cheap state school just wasn't Gods plan for me. Got the waitlists at Stony UConn Michigan even with what I thought were strong interviews. I did get into VCU but they dont give in state tuition, its still super expensive as OOS.

Yeah, not all state schools are created equal. My state school charges $40k/year just for tuition (3 semesters), and with all sorts of fees added we’re looking at $50k/year. With some roommates and cooking my own food, I can manage to live on a budget of $10-12k/year. So at minimum one has to take out around $60k of loans per year, or $240-$250k for 4 years. Not as cheap as some other state schools, but that’s the best option for residents of my state if they want to become a dentist.

 

[charlestweed]

Life doesn't always work out the way you planned it to. I tip my hat off to you that you planned, worked and lived (to this point) a financial strategy for life. Doesn't work for everybody since we all come from different backgrounds and different scenarios. Hard work will only get you so far. Usually some aspect of luck or market timing.

I agree that hard work will only get you so far. But you don't really have any choice when you owe $1million and can't erase it by filing bankruptcy. You need to work hard at least during the first 4-5 years to save $$$ for opening up your own office and to build the clientele. Once your office gets more patients, you can use other people's time (by hiring associate.....for me, hiring more chairside assistants) to help you increase productivity....and you can start to relax. If you are not willing to do this, then you will be stuck with $150-200k/year salary for working for someone else for the next 30-35 years....then dentistry will just be like any other jobs......lack of autonmy, no financial independence, no sense of pride in business ownership.

Looks like you had a punch list for choosing the right spouse. Again .... life usually doesn't work that way. I met my wife in a bar 37 years ago. I married her because she was hot. She is a stay at home mom who has contributed more than her fair share to raising my children and keeping me out of trouble . I adore my wife for who she is .... not what she brings to the table.

Isn't it wonderful to have a happy marriage? Being an introvert socially awkward person, I don't like going to noisy places like bars and nightclubs. I don't drink alcohol (not a religious thing....just don't like the taste). So I attended many schools' social events with the hope to find a girl who was into studying and was anti-social like me. It did not turn out to be what I had planned. My wife is a very sociable person. More than half of my referring GPs are her friends. I succeed because of her. She helped negotiate the leases for my offices. I couldn't start my own office if I didn't have the additional income from her job. I am very lucky that my wife can put up with my anti-social boring personality.

No offense @charlestweed, but most of your posts revolve around MONEY and material objects. Nothing wrong with that. But my feeling is that while you are so focused on $$$$$$$$ that you may miss out on life's more precious gifts.

Money isn't every thing but everything needs money. Aren't making money and being financially independent the main reason for many of us here to study hard in school and try to get into dental school? Doing what you love won't pay bills. It annoys me when I hear kids who say money isn't everything when they are living on their parents' money or on borrowed money.

Kids are the reason I have to work hard. There never be enough money for them. My son's friend's dad passed away from lung cancer....he's only a few years older than me.

 

[charlestweed]

But to get back on topic, is it even possible to pay back 1 million in student loans? Compounding interest is no joke.

Also I find it pretty disingenuous that my school and others, tell students that the average debt is around 300-400k. My school recently just released a number of 350K I believe. Im pretty sure this includes people on HPSP and those who parents pay full tuition, so this number is lower than reported and just the principal (not accounting for interest).

You'll make 120 a year after graduation so you can pay this off in 3 years right? Thats what many believe.

It wasn't my dental income alone that enabled me to pay off my $450k loan in 5 years. Back then orthodontists only got paid $800-900/day. Like most dentists/orthodontists, I wanted to live in a big house. So after 2 years of owning the first house, I sold it to upgrade to a bigger house. I made $150k in profit and used it to pay off some of the higher interest student loans first. Two years later (right before the housing bubble), I sold the 2nd house and upgraded an even bigger one. I made $200+k in profit and used it to pay off the rest of the student loans. At one point during the recession our current house lost more than $500k in value due to the housing crisis but it wasn't a big deal since we had stable jobs that enabled us to pay the mortgage. Many of our neighbors (who were loan officers, real estate brokers, engineers etc) lost their jobs and their houses. Now our home value goes back up to what it should be.

The housing crisis and economic recession helped us realize that we couldn't just spend, spend and spend. That's when we started to invest in rental properties. We can't just work forever. We need a passive income when we retire.

The whole point of this story is dentistry is a recession proof job. In comparison to other fields, you can make money fast in dentistry and use it to invest in other things that help you pay off the debts faster.

 

[psiyung]

Not sure why this thread has taken this route. This is not about planning ahead, or even finding the right spouse. It's about a government program that is so out of control that it's handing out money like its tissue paper. We need to hold our local representatives accountable, and lower the amount of borrowing that's allowed for these naive kids. Less loans means a huge drop in tuition prices. Any if anyone can justify 1M of debt, you're out of your mind.

 

[Cold Front]

Not sure why this thread has taken this route. This is not about planning ahead, or even finding the right spouse. It's about a government program that is so out of control that it's handing out money like its tissue paper. We need to hold our local representatives accountable, and lower the amount of borrowing that's allowed for these naive kids. Less loans means a huge drop in tuition prices. Any if anyone can justify 1M of debt, you're out of your mind.

This issue has to be seen through the lens of the government. Congress will not limit student loans, because they strongly believe the return of investment on the loans is not just the interest the students will pay back on the loans - but also for the workplace participation and the taxes the graduates will pay after they finish school that are more important to the economy. I teach a 9-week Dental Assisting program in my office on Saturdays. The full tuition (about $7k) is paid by the local county job center through a federal grant program (not a student loan), no limits on the tuition - I could charge $10k per student and I would still get paid. As long as the student can find a job in 6 months, and that job must pay the minimum livable wages in the area (currently $15 per hour). It’s almost exactly similar to the federal student loans and the 44M people who carry those loans. The interest and taxes those students will pay in the job markets are far greater (in the 100’s of billions a year) than the default rates. Schools are just acting as opportunistic participants/parasites in the government’s M.O. - to get as much people as possible to go to college with blank checks in their hands, because the benefits of that investment will always outweigh the risks. The student’s nativity and poor planing is on them - and not on the school or the government.

Since workplace participation for dentists is 100% and the default rates for dental school student loans are very low, and every dental student that graduates will pay $100k+ in interest and taxes every year - they are the best the ROI for the government. Hence the top 10 programs that get the most federal students loans every year are all dental schools. So the return on investment by the government will pay itself in few years - while the dental students are stuck with those loans for decades - potentially. That’s the REASON why the government blank checks for high tuitions and fees exist, and will continue to exist as a government mandate. There are no pre-set limits, a dental student can still apply to a $2M or $5M school, and the government will still hand out the blank check to them.

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[gryffindor]

This issue has to be seen through the lens of the government. Congress will not limit student loans, because they strongly believe the return of investment on the loans is not just the interest the students will pay back on the loans - but also for the workplace participation and the taxes the graduates will pay after they finish school that are more important to the economy. I teach a 9-week Dental Assisting program in my office on Saturdays. The full tuition (about $7k) is paid by the local county job center through a federal grant program (not a student loan), no limits on the tuition - I could charge $10k per student and I would still get paid. As long as the student can find a job in 6 months, and that job must pay the minimum livable wages in the area (currently $15 per hour). It’s almost exactly similar to the federal student loans and the 44M people who carry those loans. The interest and taxes those students will pay in the job markets are far greater (in the 100’s of billions a year) than the default rates. Schools are just acting as opportunistic participants/parasites in the government’s M.O. - to get as much people as possible to go to college with blank checks in their hands, because the benefits of that investment will always outweigh the risks. The student’s nativity and poor planing is on them - and not on the school or the government.

Since workplace participation for dentists is 100% and the default rates for dental school student loans are very low, and every dental student that graduates will pay $100k+ in interest and taxes every year - they are the best the ROI for the government. Hence the top 10 programs that get the most federal students loans every year are all dental schools. So the return on investment by the government will pay itself in few years - while the dental students are stuck with those loans for decades - potentially. That’s the REASON why the government blank checks for high tuitions and fees exist, and will continue to exist as a government mandate. There are no pre-set limits, a dental student can still apply to a $2M or $5M school, and the government will still hand out the blank check to them.

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People were already working and paying taxes. Especially with the dental assisting example you gave - we’ve always needed them, training programs or not, and we’ve always paid them wages and the taxes on those wages. There’s got to be something more than this. Especially since it seems like it snuck up on us in 2007 when it happened. When I was in ASDA through 2004, they only talked about going to Congress to discuss deducting student loan interest. If there was talk of increasing student loan interest, seems like affected parties should have known like how ASDA was lobbying for something that seems so meaningless in comparison. Otherwise the government really just did whatever they wanted and here we are 12 years later. Which says to me it doesn’t matter who you voted for, no one in power is your friend.

 

[Cold Front]

People were already working and paying taxes.

There is a shortage of skilled jobs - which are usually the higher paying jobs, which means higher taxes paid by those jobs. There are federal grants that pay for all types of training; from truck drivers to obtain CDL licenses to culinary diplomas. Another reason those grants/funds are available through the federal government is to prevent people who lose their jobs from staying home and applying for unemployment benefits - which is a cost and a loss of tax revenue to the government. It’s to encourage those people and get them retrained and move them to a sector in the job market that has a labor shortage. The more people working, the better - specially the skilled labor workforce, the more taxes paid, the stronger the economy.



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[deleted978973]

You don't really have any choice when you owe $1million and can't erase it by filing bankruptcy.

You have the choice of taking your highly valuable and coveted skill set to another country, which at this point you probably should.

 

[charlestweed]

You have the choice of taking your highly valuable and coveted skill set to another country, which at this point you probably should.

What country might that be? In which country, where a new grad ortho (like the guy in the first youtube video) can make $200-250k/year for working only 3 days/week as an associate? What country that has reasonably low tax rate like the US? What country that has very high demand for ortho treatments like the US? Can orthodontists in other countries charge their patients $5-7k per ortho case ($10k+ if patient gets phase I and phase II tx or if patients get braces again due to poor retainer wear) like the orthodontists in the US?...and even at such ridiculously high treatment fees, many patients (4+ million patients) in the US are still willing to pay for them.

Many foreign trained dentists are currently paying US dental schools $2-300k so they can have the opportunity to practice dentistry in the US. A co-resident at my ortho program got his BDS in England. He didn't go back to England after graduation. He currently owns 3 very successful ortho practices in Washington.

I've heard that dental students in Canada don't have to take out loans because college education is pretty much free over there. However, it's extremely hard to get accepted to the public dental schools there. Therefore, the lesser qualified candidates have to go to the country that gives them the opportunity to become dentists. Guess what that country might be? It's the USA....the land of opportunities. I heard University of Detroit has a lot of Canadian students.

I've also heard that dentists in many European countries get free college education. But people over there have to pay very high taxes to fund their educations. I'd rather take out student loan and pay for my own education than being forced to pay (through taxation) for other people's college educations.

"Only in America can someone start with nothing and achieve the American Dream. That's the greatness of this country." Rafael Cruz.

 

[ToothJockey]

Many foreign trained dentists are currently paying US dental schools $2-300k so they can have the opportunity to practice dentistry in the US. A co-resident at my ortho program got his BDS in England. He didn't go back to England after graduation. He currently owns 3 very successful ortho practices in Washington.

On that note, it seems unfair how international students get a much cheaper education compared to us. Yeah their yearly cost is higher, but think, they paid peanuts to attend dental school in whatever their home country is, and then they come here and only have to pay 200-250k to become a dentist while the rest of us have to pay 400k.

Not to mention in many countries you can go straight to dental school from high school, so these international students will become dentists at a younger age and with less debt....damnn

 

[AONLINE]

I recently talked to a general dentist in his mid 50’s. He’s currently working for corporate. I mentioned the big debt-to-income ratio that young dentists have to face, to which he replied: “But you’re in a much better situation than plenty of college grads nowadays. They take out huge debt then struggle to even get a job that pays $30k a year.”


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[deleted978973]

What country might that be? In which country, where a new grad ortho (like the guy in the first youtube video) can make $200-250k/year for working only 3 days/week as an associate? What country that has reasonably low tax rate like the US? What country that has very high demand for ortho treatments like the US? Can orthodontists in other countries charge their patients $5-7k per ortho case ($10k+ if patient gets phase I and phase II tx or if patients get braces again due to poor retainer wear) like the orthodontists in the US?...and even at such ridiculously high treatment fees, many patients (4+ million patients) in the US are still willing to pay for them.

Many foreign trained dentists are currently paying US dental schools $2-300k so they can have the opportunity to practice dentistry in the US. A co-resident at my ortho program got his BDS in England. He didn't go back to England after graduation. He currently owns 3 very successful ortho practices in Washington.

I've heard that dental students in Canada don't have to take out loans because college education is pretty much free over there. However, it's extremely hard to get accepted to the public dental schools there. Therefore, the lesser qualified candidates have to go to the country that gives them the opportunity to become dentists. Guess what that country might be? It's the USA....the land of opportunities. I heard University of Detroit has a lot of Canadian students.

I've also heard that dentists in many European countries get free college education. But people over there have to pay very high taxes to fund their educations. I'd rather take out student loan and pay for my own education than being forced to pay (through taxation) for other people's college educations.

"Only in America can someone start with nothing and achieve the American Dream. That's the greatness of this country." Rafael Cruz.

Go abroad, get good job, find nice local to marry, forget debt exists. Million-dollar debt? Try million-dollar bonus.

 

[Cold Front]

I recently talked to a general dentist in his mid-50’s. He’s currently working for corporate. I mentioned the big debt-to-income ratio that young dentists have to face, to which he replied: “But you’re in a much better situation then plenty of college grads nowadays. They take out huge debt then struggle to even get a job that pays $30k a year.”


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He may have a point, but it still comes back to debt to income ratio. Having a 4 year bachelor degree with a $100k debt and trying to pay that back with $30k salary is equivalent to making $200k income as a dentist with $600k in student loans... it’s actually worse for the dentist because the more debt they have, it’s equivalent to paying more taxes (because of the student loan payments are post-tax). In this example, the undergrad with $100k debt is in a better position than the dentist.


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[charlestweed]

On that note, it seems unfair how international students get a much cheaper education compared to us. Yeah their yearly cost is higher, but think, they paid peanuts to attend dental school in whatever their home country is, and then they come here and only have to pay 200-250k to become a dentist while the rest of us have to pay 400k.

Not to mention in many countries you can go straight to dental school from high school, so these international students will become dentists at a younger age and with less debt....damnn

It's true that they'll have less student loans (some have rich parents who pay for everything) than the US students but they also face some disadvantages (such as English deficiency, cultural barrier, communication problems etc) that US students don't have to face. These foreign trained dentists may only be able to practice in states that are more culturally diversed (like CA and NY).....and the competitions are pretty bad at these states. Some of them may only be able to work for the corps that give them the working visas. But that's not my point. My point was: if dentistry is so much better in other countries, then why do the foreign trained dentists want to come to America?

 

[AONLINE]

On that note, it seems unfair how international students get a much cheaper education compared to us. Yeah their yearly cost is higher, but think, they paid peanuts to attend dental school in whatever their home country is, and then they come here and only have to pay 200-250k to become a dentist while the rest of us have to pay 400k.

Not to mention in many countries you can go straight to dental school from high school, so these international students will become dentists at a younger age and with less debt....damnn

At my state school the international dentists pay $250k for their 2-year program, which is very close to what we pay for our 4-year in-state tuition. And yes the OOS people pay $400k so it is particularly unfair to them. Most of these foreign dentists are also in their 30’s when they start the program, which is about 10 years older than us traditional dental students. This limits their lifetime earning potential.

 

[AONLINE]

He may have a point, but it still comes back to debt to income ratio. Having a 4 year bachelor degree with a $100k debt and trying to pay that back with $30k salary is equivalent to making $200k income as a dentist with $600k in student loans... it’s actually worse for the dentist because the more debt they have, it’s equivalent to paying more taxes (because of the student loan payments are post-tax). In this example, the undergrad with $100k debt is in a better position than the dentist.

I think what that dentist said should only specifically apply to the group of us classmates that he was talking to, all of us will have between $250k (in-state) and $400k (out-of-state) in debt. I agree with you that a debt of $600k is a much worse situation. Which brings us back to the topic that dental school might still be worth it if one attends a state school. This is very relevant as thousands of applicants around the country just received their acceptances yesterday and need to make a decision soon.

 

[charlestweed]

I recently talked to a general dentist in his mid 50’s. He’s currently working for corporate. I mentioned the big debt-to-income ratio that young dentists have to face, to which he replied: “But you’re in a much better situation than plenty of college grads nowadays. They take out huge debt then struggle to even get a job that pays $30k a year."

And these $30k/year jobs may not be stable like dentistry. They may lose their jobs any time, especially during the recessions. Being a dentist, you don't get stuck at $150-200k/year salary for the rest of your life. If you are willing to take risk to open your own office.....the sky is the limit.

Today dental grads may not be able to buy a house and drive nice cars within the first 5 years like me, the older grad. But in 10-15 years, they and I will probably be equal in wealth. They may even go past me since I only treat low income patients, who pay me very little. Both Coldfront and Tanman graduated way after me.....and look at what they've accomplished so far.

 

[Cold Front]

At my state school the international dentists pay $250k for their 2-year program, which is very close to what we pay for our 4-year in-state tuition. And yes the OOS people pay $400k so it is particularly unfair to them. Most of these foreign dentists are also in their 30’s when they start the program, which is about 10 years older than us traditional dental students. This limits their lifetime earning potential.

Year to year comparison, international students pay more than OOS - for essentially the same curriculum as year 3 and 4 students, same faculty, same clinics and facility, etc. Then the international dentists can’t open their own practice for at least 3-4 years (until they get their greencards), which is income potential loss on it’s own.


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[AONLINE]

Oh and that dentist told us that when he graduated in 1990 lot of people said that the golden age of dentistry was over - that he just missed the boat. Well that was simply not true. People around his time could easily graduate and set up shop and immediately had a flow of patients - no advertisements needed.

 

[Cold Front]

I only treat low income patients, who pay me very little.

Speaking of low income patients:

In 2000, my home state’s Medicaid budget was about 19 percent of the state’s entire budget.

In 2009, it jumped to 24 percent of state spending.

In 2018, then it went up to 38 percent of the state budget.

Next year, 2020 it will be close to 45 percent.

In 2021, there will be a new rule for Medicaid - you must work at least 20 hours a week to qualify.

Similar numbers in many other states. Poverty is real!



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[mmc12]

You have the choice of taking your highly valuable and coveted skill set to another country, which at this point you probably should.

i have heard dentists in Dubai get paid pretty well. I doubt smile direct club has made its mark there.

 

[Anondds87]

What have you heard specifically?

 

[Gyuji]

Speaking of low income patients:

In 2000, my home state’s Medicaid budget was about 19 percent of the state’s entire budget.

In 2009, it jumped to 24 percent of state spending.

In 2018, then it went up to 38 percent of the state budget.

Next year, 2020 it will be close to 45 percent.

In 2021, there will be a new rule for Medicaid - you must work at least 20 hours a week to qualify.

Similar numbers in many other states. Poverty is real!



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What do you feel about the upcoming 2020 Democratic Party presidential election?

Bernie Sanders has been steadily surging in the polls in the last two months while corporate Dems' numbers, like Joe Biden and Elizabeth Warren, has been plummeting as Biden represents the status quo while Warren's number has declined once she started to backtrack on Medicare-4-All and proposed a goofy alternative healthcare reform - basically a public-option.

 

[Cold Front]

What do you feel about the upcoming 2020 Democratic Party presidential election?

It’s still too early to tell. 3 democratic candidates exited the race in 3 days. A big one dropped out yesterday, California Senator Kamilla Harris - she said she wasn’t rich enough to continue and didn’t have the resources, even though she was a rising star. Now we have 18 more candidates still in the race... and it still is the most diverse field in history at this point. Another debate in 2 weeks, and more people will drop out before the primaries in 2 months.

I think Bernie is the only candidate who either goes up in the polls or stays at the same level compared to the others. I think he can easily court a good number of the voters who were supporting the other candidates that will drop out in the coming weeks. I can see Bernie winning this on the democratic side, and I think he can recapture all the rust belt states (PA, OH, MI and WI), maybe not OH (smh) - if he does, that would be more than enough for him to unseat Trump.

My 2 cents.


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[AONLINE]

Would it be the end of dentistry if Bernie Sanders got elected in 2020?

 

[Gyuji]

Would it be the end of dentistry if Bernie Sanders got elected in 2020?

No. Since in Bernie Sanders' bill. it covers dental care for senior citizens. Though once Sanders gets into office, there's also going to be a Republican bloodbath in the 2020 elections due to the backlash of the upcoming economic crash. So, with Sanders as president the first 2 years, we're going to be in bizarro world as corporate Democrats tend to not "align" with Sanders due to paymasters' wishes and will delay and "debate" all the policies that Sanders is pushing for as Sanders will sign legendary executive orders and halts the neoliberal agenda.

Things will get hot once the 2022 elections start approaching as Sanders will campaign for his policies, especially Medicare-4-All as more Republicans, and a few corporate Democrats, will be voted out - especially in the Senate as more of the Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez-type of politicians will be coming in as politicians like Mitch McConnell and Chuck Schumer will bend their will to the People when public pressure becomes too much.

From there, anything can go. But once Medicare-4-All gets implemented, it's going to be near-impossible to get rid of once every citizens benefits from it. Then there might be a push for universal dental care after Bernie Sanders' presidency as Millennials and the younger generations will be the majority voter base in the 2030's.

 

[Cold Front]

Would it be the end of dentistry if Bernie Sanders got elected in 2020?

We will not know the specifics on any of the Dems policies until next summer - probably during the presidential debates.


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[charlestweed]

Speaking of low income patients:

In 2000, my home state’s Medicaid budget was about 19 percent of the state’s entire budget.

In 2009, it jumped to 24 percent of state spending.

In 2018, then it went up to 38 percent of the state budget.

Next year, 2020 it will be close to 45 percent.

In 2021, there will be a new rule for Medicaid - you must work at least 20 hours a week to qualify.

Similar numbers in many other states. Poverty is real!

They are poor but they still want their kids to look beautiful. Therefore, they bring their kids to low cost offices like the dental schools' ortho clinics, dental corp offices, and my offices for ortho treatments. They make enough to pay $100-150 every month for their kids' ortho tx. To them, ortho treatment is a necessity. Having a beautiful smile helps boost the child's self-esteem. They can wear loosely fit dentures but their kids have to have a beautiful smile. When you have kids, you will know what I am talking about.

 

[Cold Front]

They are poor but they still want their kids to look beautiful.

I agree. A lot of sacrifices. More than half of the people in this country live on/rely on a minimum wage job. They will change the way healthcare is delivered in the future - as they grow in numbers. Medicare for all may not be a choice but a requirement in the future, to sustain a healthy society. For a highly civilized country like the US - it should have happened a long time ago.



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