Another one of these "Am I too old?" questions

[gerald1]

Hi, I'm new here, but learning a ton! It's a great community and I appreciate all the generous advice people provide. I wanted to ask another one of these "Am I too old questions?" please but in a more specific way. I'd be interested to get people's opinions, good and bad.

I'm 42, I have a bachelor's from a good university, and I would need to do all my science prereqs (they're too old now and I've probably forgotten almost everything). I plan to quit my job and focus entirely on doing my prereqs. My family fully supports my decision and my wife plans to continue to work so we have a steady income. We have no debt currently. If I can finish my prereqs, MCAT, shadowing, and volunteering (I already have some published scientific research, though not in a high impact journal like Science or Nature), in 2-3 years, and assuming I get accepted to med school somewhere (I realize that's a big if), then I should be matriculating right around age 44-45. I would finish med school at age 48-49. I work at a cancer center and I get to interact with physicians such as hematologists and oncologists, giving me some limited insight as an outsider, yet I'm sure I have no idea what I'm talking about, and possibly I will change my mind if I'm lucky enough to get into med school, but right now I would be most interested in pursuing hematology-oncology. Assuming that happens, then my understanding from speaking with physicians is that is another 6 years (3 years for internal medicine, 3 years for hematology-oncology). If I make it, then I would be finished at age 54-55.

Is it realistic to start as a new hematologist-oncologist at age 55 or is that too old to start as an oncologist? I am immensely interested in cancer and cancer patients. My understanding is being a hematologist-oncologist is not as physically demanding as a specialty like surgery or emergency medicine, so I hope one can have a longer career as a hematologist-oncologist? I don't plan to retire in my 60's unless I'm forced to by health or other reasons. I would like to continue working for as long as I'm able to, even into my 70's or 80's if I'm still alive and well. Can a person still practice hematology-oncology into their 70's or 80's or is that expecting too much (assuming I'm mentally and physically fine or healthy at that age)? If not hematology-oncology, I would be interested in primary care medicine (family medicine or internal medicine) from what I have seen. Thanks!

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[KiddCo]

Hi, I'm new here, but learning a ton! It's a great community and I appreciate all the generous advice people provide. I wanted to ask another one of these "Am I too old questions?" please but in a more specific way. I'd be interested to get people's opinions, good and bad.

I'm 42, I have a bachelor's from a good university, and I would need to do all my science prereqs (they're too old now and I've probably forgotten almost everything). I plan to quit my job and focus entirely on doing my prereqs. My family fully supports my decision and my wife plans to continue to work so we have a steady income. We have no debt currently. If I can finish my prereqs, MCAT, shadowing, and volunteering (I already have some published scientific research, though not in a high impact journal like Science or Nature), in 2-3 years, and assuming I get accepted to med school somewhere (I realize that's a big if), then I should be matriculating right around age 44-45. I would finish med school at age 48-49. I work at a cancer center and I get to interact with physicians such as hematologists and oncologists, giving me some limited insight as an outsider, yet I'm sure I have no idea what I'm talking about, and possibly I will change my mind if I'm lucky enough to get into med school, but right now I would be most interested in pursuing hematology-oncology. Assuming that happens, then my understanding from speaking with physicians is that is another 6 years (3 years for internal medicine, 3 years for hematology-oncology). If I make it, then I would be finished at age 54-55.

Is it realistic to start as a new hematologist-oncologist at age 55 or is that too old to start as an oncologist? I am immensely interested in cancer and cancer patients. My understanding is being a hematologist-oncologist is not as physically demanding as a specialty like surgery or emergency medicine, so I hope one can have a longer career as a hematologist-oncologist? I don't plan to retire in my 60's unless I'm forced to by health or other reasons. I would like to continue working for as long as I'm able to, even into my 70's or 80's if I'm still alive and well. Can a person still practice hematology-oncology into their 70's or 80's or is that expecting too much (assuming I'm mentally and physically fine or healthy at that age)? If not hematology-oncology, I would be interested in primary care medicine (family medicine or internal medicine) from what I have seen. Thanks!

I've shadowed an internist who was in her 80s and running her own practice. I had trouble keeping up with her at 26.

Not sure about the other stuff, but hope that bit of anecdotal information helps.

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[hebrewBAMmer]

In a nutshell, no you aren't too old. But here are a couple things to consider after I read your post:

1) You're already working in an area you wanted to be in (i.e. hem/onc). What would going to medical school allow you to do that you can't do already?

2) Suppose you do have to end up retiring in your 60s. Is it worth spending half of your remaining work years in school?

Anyway, if you want to do it, then I don't see why you can't. If I was on an admissions committee (I'm not), I'd like to see something that would convince me you know what you're getting into and how what your work is now is insufficient for what you want to do for a career and how medical school would help you achieve what you want.

There's definitely people in their 40s that start medical school (I think the oldest person in my class is late 30s with 3 kids). For what it's worth, I shadowed an oncologist who was in his 60s and had no plans of stopping anytime soon.

 

[Osminog]

Do the science pre-reqs, get lots of clinical experience, and become a PA in oncology. https://www.aapa.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/PAs_in_Oncology.pdf

Doing four years of medical school and six years of residency/fellowship training (long hours, low pay) would probably put a huge strain on your mental and physical health, as well as your family life. Becoming a PA (pre-reqs + 2 years of schooling + ~1 year of preceptorship) would be a much faster, more convenient track toward getting directly involved in patients' medical care. And as a PA, if you get burnt out, you can easily switch fields; as a physician, you can't.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

You’re not too old. My Dad’s best friend is a cardiologist who started med school at 40 and finished fellowship at 50. He’s been in practice for almost 10 years now and has no plans to retire any time soon. He was only a little younger than you, so it’s definitely doable.

 

[Goro]

Some of my all time best students were in their 40s. One is now a PGY3 in So Cal.

 

[atomi]

Finally an appropriate “am I too old?” thread. Seems like these are all either 23 years old or 55 years old.

You are well in the gray area where it’s going to depend on the person.

Personally I couldn’t start now in my 30s, but I’m also burned out from the process so maybe that’s not really fair.

 

[gerald1]

Thank you everyone so far for your helpful replies! I really appreciate it!

Just to say a little more about myself and motivations, my current job is a lab tech with some limited research work. It's not a glamorous job, but I like my job, I like my coworkers, it is low stress, and it is decent pay (I'll never reach six figures but it pays the bills and I'm cool with that). But to be honest I don't feel completely satisfied. I feel I could be doing a lot more with my life. Most of all I see the interactions between oncologists and patients, and I want to be able to be more involved with helping and treating patients directly. While I enjoy working in a supporting role in a lab, I would like to be more involved in seeing and treating patients. Medicine seems very rewarding to me, both intellectually and especially in being involved in people's lives at their most difficult time.

I know this is the cliche answer about "helping people," but I am also (hopefully) not so idealistic that I don't realize there is a lot of burnout in medicine, that doctors often complain about all the paperwork they have to spend hours doing after seeing patients, how they have to deal with strict federal and state regulations, insurance companies, always checking their EMR's, always being available for their patients, going into the hospital in the middle of the night, working late nights, weekends, and even holidays when they'd rather be with their families, etc., etc., etc. (One of my good friends, actually my college roommate, ended up becoming an oncologist, though not at the same place where I am, he's in private practice now, but he has been helpful and informative too, and encourages me to go for it, but he also tells me it's a very long road.)

From what I have seen where I am, the oncologists are very busy, and the work is stressful, dealing with people at their most vulnerable and difficult time in life, but most of them tell me it's still very rewarding and most of them even say they would do it again despite all these challenges and even future challenges. A lot of them have warned me about the uncertainties of the health care industry in the future, but they still say they would choose medicine again, not for the glamour or money, which I know would be very bad reasons to choose medicine, but for their personal satisfaction and gratification. I am trying to go into this decision with my eyes wide open as much as possible, but I realize you never "really" know until you actually go through it. But all this to say that hopefully I am being as realistic and informed as possible before going in? I just want to make sure I am covering all my bases, as much as possible at least.

The PA route is something else I've thought about. I figure I can take my prereqs and see how I'm doing in 2 years, then I can decide if I should go the MD/DO or PA route. I would be open to nursing too. Though inside me I feel like I would be slightly disappointed if I didn't at least try to become a medical doctor (MD/DO), but maybe I will change my mind in 2 years after it starts to dawn on me how crazy I am!

Currently I feel fine and healthy (I'm a runner), but my main concern is whether I can make it through the years and years of grueling med school and especially residency, and if I do make it through whether someone will even hire me as a 54 year old brand new oncologist? Maybe a group will not want to take the risk of having an older colleague? But I would love to be like the 80 year old internist who is still running around (thank you for that tidbit)!

Sorry I am rambling, but hopefully that explains my thoughts and motivations a little better? Hopefully I am being realistic and not just jumping headfirst into some wild decision that will ruin my life? I have to admit I am still unsure, maybe I am pretty cautious by nature, I am a low risk kind of a person, maybe that is not a good mindset for medicine (and it probably explains why I've been in the same job for all these years)! But I also feel like I want to do more in life. Maybe I'm just looking for a challenge when I should be content and age out in my job gracefully, though that is another almost 25 years which is a long time too. Thanks again.

 

[sunshinefl]

Do the science pre-reqs, get lots of clinical experience, and become a PA in oncology. https://www.aapa.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/PAs_in_Oncology.pdf

Doing four years of medical school and six years of residency/fellowship training (long hours, low pay) would probably put a huge strain on your mental and physical health, as well as your family life. Becoming a PA (pre-reqs + 2 years of schooling + ~1 year of preceptorship) would be a much faster, more convenient track toward getting directly involved in patients' medical care. And as a PA, if you get burnt out, you can easily switch fields; as a physician, you can't.

You’re not TOO too old, but if I were you I would do the PA route. I started Medical school at 31 (currently 32 and 2nd year DO). Even then it was a tough decision between the two. If even 5 years older it would probably have tipped the scales towards PA for me.

 

[workaholic181]

You're not too old. What I would recommend though is keeping your job, and enrolling in 2 pre req classes next semester (I'm assuming its too late for fall, but maybe if you scramble you could find something at a local CC. Take like gen chem 1 and gen bio. You'll need these classes if you decide on PA or MD/DO anyway. See how it feels. Decide from there.

 

[gerald1]

I thought community college classes were frowned on by med schools and 4 year colleges preferred? Is that incorrect? I'd love to take community college classes because they're cheaper for me. I'm not aiming for any of the elite med schools, I wouldn't have a chance any way. I'd be glad to get in anywhere that will take a chance on an older guy like me. I know my age is already a possible red flag for a lot of med schools.

 

[hebrewBAMmer]

I thought community college classes were frowned on by med schools and 4 year colleges preferred? Is that incorrect? I'd love to take community college classes because they're cheaper for me. I'm not aiming for any of the elite med schools, I wouldn't have a chance any way. I'd be glad to get in anywhere that will take a chance on an older guy like me. I know my age is already a possible red flag for a lot of med schools.

I believe that is for more traditional undergrads. For those who have been out of college awhile, I recall reading that CC classes were completely fine

 

[kraskadva]

Something a lot of folks don't know about PA school, and that nobody here seems to ever mention, is that you need lots of direct clinical experience to be competitive. Min for most programs is ~500 hrs and competitive is ~1-2000.

For med school, you're also gonna have to show that you really understand what you're getting into and that you really, really, want it. Which is best demonstrated by...clinical (and volunteering) experience.

So, in addition to pre-reqs (and to not leave your wife wholly responsible for your finances), I would strongly suggest getting some kind of clinical job. Something that requires you to touch patients. Nurse's assistant, or what ever it's called where you are, is a good position that lets you get some experience in taking vitals, phlebotomy, wiping butts, etc and would be good for whichever path you decide to pursue. There are other options too, but to my knowledge, that's the easiest one to walk into.

Good luck!

 

[workaholic181]

I thought community college classes were frowned on by med schools and 4 year colleges preferred? Is that incorrect? I'd love to take community college classes because they're cheaper for me. I'm not aiming for any of the elite med schools, I wouldn't have a chance any way. I'd be glad to get in anywhere that will take a chance on an older guy like me. I know my age is already a possible red flag for a lot of med schools.

Technically having 4 year institution classes is more advantageous but pretty much all med schools accept CC credits. I have several and matriculated to a mid tier allopathic school. Adcoms are realists, people like you trying to get pre reqs done with other serious obligations often need the flexibility CC course provide. In your case I would just take the course where they're cheapest and most convenient for you schedule wise.

 

[gerald1]

Thank you guys! So it sounds like it's okay for me to do all or most my prereqs at a CC? Or do you mean I should try to have a mix of prereqs at both a CC and 4 year institution?

I'll definitely look into getting a nurse's assistant job. I have heard medical scribes are good too, any thoughts about that?

 

[esob]

Not too old, I'll matriculate at 44.

 

[atomi]

Thank you guys! So it sounds like it's okay for me to do all or most my prereqs at a CC? Or do you mean I should try to have a mix of prereqs at both a CC and 4 year institution?

I'll definitely look into getting a nurse's assistant job. I have heard medical scribes are good too, any thoughts about that?

Yes keep current job and do pre reqs at night at CC unless independently wealthy. You must make straight As. Don’t quit job until in med school.

This is what I did, but I was in my mid 20s.

 

[kraskadva]

Thank you guys! So it sounds like it's okay for me to do all or most my prereqs at a CC? Or do you mean I should try to have a mix of prereqs at both a CC and 4 year institution?

I'll definitely look into getting a nurse's assistant job. I have heard medical scribes are good too, any thoughts about that?

Scribing is super common among the trad kids. You would get to hear and see a lot, and you would have good access to docs who could then help you with shadowing, but you wouldn't get your hands dirty. I don't think it would count for PA (though by all means check on this, I may be wrong). For med, it's decent exposure (like I said, many of the trad kids have it), but at your age, you really want the little something extra that a more hands-on position would give you.

 

[futuremdforme]

Don't quit your job for an entry-level job that cookie-cutter pre-meds do. You'll never be one of them, and you'll never be as good at them as being "typical pre-med." Stand out for what you are - experienced, with unique skills. Continue your job, gain clinical volunteering experience and don't worry about clinical paid experience.

That said, personally I wouldn't go into medicine at your age. I'm already exhausted enough having matriculated a dozen years younger than you would. The hours can be brutal. But if you do go into it, don't paint yourself into a corner until the last minute -- don't quit until you have your acceptance in hand.

 

[gerald1]

Don't quit your job for an entry-level job that cookie-cutter pre-meds do. You'll never be one of them, and you'll never be as good at them as being "typical pre-med." Stand out for what you are - experienced, with unique skills. Continue your job, gain clinical volunteering experience and don't worry about clinical paid experience.

That said, personally I wouldn't go into medicine at your age. I'm already exhausted enough having matriculated a dozen years younger than you would. The hours can be brutal. But if you do go into it, don't paint yourself into a corner until the last minute -- don't quit until you have your acceptance in hand.

Thanks for the good advice! By the way what would you advise instead of medicine out of curiosity? I'm open to other suggestions like PA as another helpful person mentioned above, but it sounds like I'd have to seriously step up my clinical volunteering experience. Someone else in a different thread mentioned nurse practioner (sounds different than RN) and anesthetist as good paths but I don't know anything about these.

 

[dushash]

All below is just my opinion.

Forget about PA - it's a dead end road for you. In your situation you need to either go all in (MD/DO) or stay at your current job. You need to speed up. 4-5 years is too long to get prereqs. I did it in 3 years and I'm a 40yo international student with 2 kids. You are way ahead of me in terms of English, in terms of debts (you don't have any) etc. You only need 2 years of prereqs (with labs):
1st year: gen.chem, biology, physics, English (you can substitute this for something else)
2nd year: org.chem, biochem, psychology (or any other similar subject)
That's it. You spend 3rd year studying MCAT and applying same year. Every year should count.

Also, you probably will get loan forgiveness in 10 years after you start as an attending. Should be enough time for you to get debt free again. Meanwhile all those attending years you'll be getting home much more salary compared to your current one. So it's totally worth it financially. It's worth it in every other way imho.

The only real issue from my point of view - is your genetics, health - you have to try your best to stay healthy and fit to work. I've seen internists in their 80s still working, but those did have excellent health. I can only hope I can work up to 80 lol. I'm not sure about specifically oncology. Keep in mind it's a competitive specialty and let's be honest there are not many spots. You NEED to have plan B specialty of your choice. Just my opinion.

 

[gerald1]

All below is just my opinion.

Forget about PA - it's a dead end road for you. In your situation you need to either go all in (MD/DO) or stay at your current job. You need to speed up. 4-5 years is too long to get prereqs. I did it in 3 years and I'm a 40yo international student with 2 kids. You are way ahead of me in terms of English, in terms of debts (you don't have any) etc. You only need 2 years of prereqs (with labs):
1st year: gen.chem, biology, physics, English (you can substitute this for something else)
2nd year: org.chem, biochem, psychology (or any other similar subject)
That's it. You spend 3rd year studying MCAT and applying same year. Every year should count.

Also, you probably will get loan forgiveness in 10 years after you start as an attending. Should be enough time for you to get debt free again. Meanwhile all those attending years you'll be getting home much more salary compared to your current one. So it's totally worth it financially. It's worth it in every other way imho.

The only real issue from my point of view - is your genetics, health - you have to try your best to stay healthy and fit to work. I've seen internists in their 80s still working, but those did have excellent health. I can only hope I can work up to 80 lol. I'm not sure about specifically oncology. Keep in mind it's a competitive specialty and let's be honest there are not many spots. You NEED to have plan B specialty of your choice. Just my opinion.

Thank you! That was great to read! I appreciate it all! I wanted to ask you if you know where I can find out more about the loan forgiveness in 10 years program?

I make about $75k/year and I've reached a ceiling, unless I move up, but that's probably not going to happen any time soon if at all. I'm not in it for the money but I admit I wouldn't mind making more. My wife makes about the same and we have two little kids in school also. She is very supportive but I know med school and residency can stretch some families to breaking point so I am concerned about that. For a backup specialty, I would be glad to be an internist. I don't know how competitive internal medicine is (for MD or DO schools)?

 

[futuremdforme]

Thanks for the good advice! By the way what would you advise instead of medicine out of curiosity? I'm open to other suggestions like PA as another helpful person mentioned above, but it sounds like I'd have to seriously step up my clinical volunteering experience. Someone else in a different thread mentioned nurse practioner (sounds different than RN) and anesthetist as good paths but I don't know anything about these.

I personally would not go back to school for anything but an MBA or something that would allow me to move up in my existing career at that age. It's not telling you what to do, but I think for me my limit would have been 35 max. It's great that your wife has a good job with a good salary too, but what will you guys do if you have to move for med school? For residency? I would definitely, definitely not go back for NP/PA/alternative provider -- you'll be the oldest AND still be annoyed that you aren't the doc.

If you really want to be a doc, you will do it despite everyone telling you not to. I got told not to by lots of people, and no regrets for me despite my griping.

 

[gerald1]

I personally would not go back to school for anything but an MBA or something that would allow me to move up in my existing career at that age. It's not telling you what to do, but I think for me my limit would have been 35 max. It's great that your wife has a good job with a good salary too, but what will you guys do if you have to move for med school? For residency? I would definitely, definitely not go back for NP/PA/alternative provider -- you'll be the oldest AND still be annoyed that you aren't the doc.

If you really want to be a doc, you will do it despite everyone telling you not to. I got told not to by lots of people, and no regrets for me despite my griping.

Thanks futuremdforme! I appreciate the honesty. For me, an MBA could help me move up, but I've never much liked the business management side of things. I could never do something like law school either, that just isn't for me.

The only other thing that might help me move up that I might like, too, is a PhD to become a scientist at the cancer center or other place. But that's probably even a longer road, with fewer rewards, than medicine (from what I have seen).

It seems like a lot of the enjoyment of medicine might depend on what specialty we end up in? I have heard there are a lot of disgruntled doctors in primary care, but I don't know if that's true, or just rumors. But if someone can get into a specialty they like, then maybe they will find medicine more enjoyable?

 

[atomi]

Thank you! That was great to read! I appreciate it all! I wanted to ask you if you know where I can find out more about the loan forgiveness in 10 years program?

I make about $75k/year and I've reached a ceiling, unless I move up, but that's probably not going to happen any time soon if at all. I'm not in it for the money but I admit I wouldn't mind making more. My wife makes about the same and we have two little kids in school also. She is very supportive but I know med school and residency can stretch some families to breaking point so I am concerned about that. For a backup specialty, I would be glad to be an internist. I don't know how competitive internal medicine is (for MD or DO schools)?

If you’ve reached a ceiling at 75k/ year you need to move on an find something else. You are too early in your career to stagnate at such a low income. I will be making about 700k/yr when I finish residency. It took me 13 years to get here, but if you are willing to do what it takes to go into s high paying field, it would still be worth it for you financially vs continuing to make 75k/yr.

If you don’t go into medicine look into something else that can get you to 150k or so, which is what you really need to save for retirement appropriately,

 

[gerald1]

If you’ve reached a ceiling at 75k/ year you need to move on an find something else. You are too early in your career to stagnate at such a low income. I will be making about 700k/yr when I finish residency. It took me 13 years to get here, but if you are willing to do what it takes to go into s high paying field, it would still be worth it for you financially vs continuing to make 75k/yr.

If you don’t go into medicine look into something else that can get you to 150k or so, which is what you really need to save for retirement appropriately,

700k/year! Can I ask what specialty you're in? I'd think the sacrifices would be worth it if I can make even half that amount. Even 200k sounds like a lot to me to be honest.

 

[atomi]

700k/year! Can I ask what specialty you're in? I'd think the sacrifices would be worth it if I can make even half that amount. Even 200k sounds like a lot to me to be honest.

It’s more a factor of working in the middle of nowhere where no one else wants to.

If you want to be a sub specialist in a major city you can expect half that or less.

Doctors make good money for now, but it’s a risk for you that’s higher than for a 21 year old because you can’t really afford to start over if it all doesn’t work out,

Advanced degrees are one way to move up, but not the only way. You may simply need a lateral move to another company where you have better opportunities for promotion.