Another shooting, more riots.

[coffeebythelake]

Absolutely a homicide. Unless that now-fired officer says, "I planned on killing someone today" or, worse, "If I see George Floyd today, I'm going to kill him", it's not murder. Ask any attorney - getting a conviction for murder in that case would be quite difficult.

You have provided the definition of FIRST DEGREE MURDER. Pre-meditated, intentional murder.
There are 2nd (intentional but not pre-meditated) and 3rd degree (manslaughter in some jurisdictions) murder.
I don't need to ask an attorney.
This is pretty basic legal knowledge.

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[Apollyon]

You have provided the definition of FIRST DEGREE MURDER. Pre-meditated, intentional murder.
There are 2nd (intentional but not pre-meditated) and 3rd degree (manslaughter in some jurisdictions) murder.
I don't need to ask an attorney.
This is pretty basic legal knowledge.

Tell that other poster that.

Depending on your state, though, your definition of second degree is not precise. In New York, for example, second-degree murder is planning to kill somebody, but not anyone specific. "Intentional but not premeditated" is the definition of manslaughter.

 

[epidural man]

What does that mean? Facts haven't mattered? You saying that Breonna Taylor somehow threatened a police officer and was justified to be killed? Don't try to minimize the fact that America is a damned racist country, systemic racism is present in many police forces, and Blacks tend to see the brunt of the racism.

I took this to mean about facts not mattering - that each case often has a complicating story, and each case is different. Yet, in today's court of pubic opinion, the nuance of each case doesn't matter. That becomes a significant problem.

It's great that you two were talking about the particulars of the Breonna Taylor case. That's probably useful. But making judgements before trying to get details is a HUGE problem, and I assume that is what was meant by facts not mattering.

One of the most rewarding read I have had in a long time was "Talking to Strangers" by Malcolm Gladwell. He discusses this topic at great length.

 

[emergentmd]

In the past, police was given the benefits of the doubt especially when life/death decisions were made. Lots of Gray in Policing as it is in medicine. Now, rioting thugs/BLM jump on the first black shooting then starts to riot/demand justice.

I am quite confident that No one on this thread would be police officers in this climate.

Not to say this is the same, but if Docs were treated the same as police, most of us would quit medicine. Imagine if someone dies on your watch, and you automatically get placed on leave, and have the real potential of being tried for murder.

Imagine if you are running a code and the monitor showed fine Vfib but you believed it was asystole and didn't shock the pt. Pt dies, you get placed on unpaid leave, then 1 wk later get tried for murder.

Let this sink in how difficult being a cop is these days.

 

[NicMouse64]

In the past, police was given the benefits of the doubt especially when life/death decisions were made. Lots of Gray in Policing as it is in medicine. Now, rioting thugs/BLM jump on the first black shooting then starts to riot/demand justice.

I am quite confident that No one on this thread would be police officers in this climate.

Not to say this is the same, but if Docs were treated the same as police, most of us would quit medicine. Imagine if someone dies on your watch, and you automatically get placed on leave, and have the real potential of being tried for murder.

Imagine if you are running a code and the monitor showed fine Vfib but you believed it was asystole and didn't shock the pt. Pt dies, you get placed on unpaid leave, then 1 wk later get tried for murder.

Let this sink in how difficult being a cop is these days.

Not saving a person who was on the brink of death anyways due to human error is a lot different than taking the life of a young, physically healthy human being. The reasons that life was taken are variable but biases, poor training, and bad police culture should be considered.

 

[pgg]

In the past, police was given the benefits of the doubt especially when life/death decisions were made. Lots of Gray in Policing as it is in medicine. Now, rioting thugs/BLM jump on the first black shooting then starts to riot/demand justice.

I am quite confident that No one on this thread would be police officers in this climate.

Not to say this is the same, but if Docs were treated the same as police, most of us would quit medicine. Imagine if someone dies on your watch, and you automatically get placed on leave, and have the real potential of being tried for murder.

Imagine if you are running a code and the monitor showed fine Vfib but you believed it was asystole and didn't shock the pt. Pt dies, you get placed on unpaid leave, then 1 wk later get tried for murder.

Let this sink in how difficult being a cop is these days.

I would suggest one reason that's not the case for physicians is because we, on the whole, are actually pretty good at policing ourselves and dealing with misconduct. We have state medical boards that can act on licenses, we have facility credentialing committees, we conduct peer review, we have remediation programs for doctors with problems ranging from technical issues to substance abuse. We carry individual malpractice insurance, which can get expensive or be denied outright if an individual demonstrates a pattern of practice outside the standard of care. There's no powerful "doctor union" and no blanket qualified immunity. In short, we're professionals in a profession that is charged with caring for other people. It's not a perfect system obviously, but it basically works and the public generally sees that it works.

The police don't have any of that. No licensing, no insurance, no regulatory boards, their "peer review" is a rubber stamp joke, they're largely immune to consequences of misconduct and incompetence, and to top it all off, they've been told they're Warriors fighting the good fight in the War On Drugs and the War On Crime. They're about four steps removed from calling in airstrikes to support no-knock warrants.

A person who goes to a doctor (voluntarily) and doesn't like the doctor can just go to another doctor. We don't get to choose which police officers come to us (typically involuntarily).

The police : physician analogy is not a good one. The professions couldn't be more different in their attitudes toward quality control and self-regulation.

 

[Twiggidy]

I’m also a bit over the “policing is so hard so we should give them a break”’take. Yes, being a police officer is hard, it should be hard, and they should be held to that standard. The problem is anyone with a high school degree and can trot their way through a mile run can become a police officer where they are put in difficult situations to make crtical decisions. We’ve actually lowered the bar for a profession, yes profession, that should be held to a much higher standard. But again, that doesn’t mean they can protect themselves from imminent obvious danger but they should also suffer consequences of wrong decisions are made and the later doesn’t happen very often

 

[AMEHigh]

I would suggest one reason that's not the case for physicians is because we, on the whole, are actually pretty good at policing ourselves and dealing with misconduct. We have state medical boards that can act on licenses, we have facility credentialing committees, we conduct peer review, we have remediation programs for doctors with problems ranging from technical issues to substance abuse. We carry individual malpractice insurance, which can get expensive or be denied outright if an individual demonstrates a pattern of practice outside the standard of care. There's no powerful "doctor union" and no blanket qualified immunity. In short, we're professionals in a profession that is charged with caring for other people. It's not a perfect system obviously, but it basically works and the public generally sees that it works.

The police don't have any of that. No licensing, no insurance, no regulatory boards, their "peer review" is a rubber stamp joke, they're largely immune to consequences of misconduct and incompetence, and to top it all off, they've been told they're Warriors fighting the good fight in the War On Drugs and the War On Crime. They're about four steps removed from calling in airstrikes to support no-knock warrants.

A person who goes to a doctor (voluntarily) and doesn't like the doctor can just go to another doctor. We don't get to choose which police officers come to us (typically involuntarily).

The police : physician analogy is not a good one. The professions couldn't be more different in their attitudes toward quality control and self-regulation.

100%.
There are plenty of problems within medicine in regards to bias, racism, etc. So it’s not a perfect system. However, cannot compare it to policing at all.
Unfortunately people don’t always have a choice in which doctor/ED they go to (hello catholic hospitals taking over everywhere), but that’s a different discussion for a different day and your point stands that it’s a horrible analogy.

 

[emergentmd]

As I stated that it is not the same. It is also not the same to expect police to be top intellects when you are paying them less than 100K and risk their lives every day. Thus you will get poorly qualified people b/c most docs would not be a cop for 300K b/c we choose a much easier job.

Any job that risks your life every day is an easier job than we have it at 1/4 the pay.

I would be safe to say the ones on here who thinks that trying to talk a guy down with a knife walking at you who is clearly crazy will either die on the job or quit very quickly.

If I was a cop, I am shooting if my life is in danger and that is the bottom line.

 

[AMEHigh]

As I stated that it is not the same. It is also not the same to expect police to be top intellects when you are paying them less than 100K and risk their lives every day. Thus you will get poorly qualified people b/c most docs would not be a cop for 300K b/c we choose a much easier job.

Any job that risks your life every day is an easier job than we have it at 1/4 the pay.

I would be safe to say the ones on here who thinks that trying to talk a guy down with a knife walking at you who is clearly crazy will either die on the job or quit very quickly.

If I was a cop, I am shooting if my life is in danger and that is the bottom line.

I don’t have time to bring up all the links, but being a police officer actually isn’t one of the most dangerous jobs in this country. So that’s another thing that people give the police too much credit for, as there are plenty of other jobs where people are risking their lives everyday as well. Many (most?) of them are also low paying. So yeah that’s a poor excuse that just because they chose their career field and there’s some risk to it they can indiscriminately kill people if they’re the slightest bit spooked. Again, why have the police in other rich countries figured out how to not kill so many citizens but we can’t?

 

[nimbus]

I don’t have time to bring up all the links, but being a police officer actually isn’t one of the most dangerous jobs in this country. So that’s another thing that people give the police too much credit for, as there are plenty of other jobs where people are risking their lives everyday as well. Many (most?) of them are also low paying. So yeah that’s a poor excuse that just because they chose their career field and there’s some risk to it they can indiscriminately kill people if they’re the slightest bit spooked. Again, why have the police in other rich countries figured out how to not kill so many citizens but we can’t?

Just my theory but it seems like our police have lost the mindset of being “servant and protector” and adopted one of being the “enforcer”.

 

[emergentmd]

I am not debating if there are poor policing/training or if they are trigger happy. But if a person has a knife and keeps coming towards you, who are on drugs or having a psychotic breakthrough, then what would you do if you were a cop?

Just curious. Are you going to keep backing away while he walks towards you? Do you realize that backing away has tripping tendencies on top of it being slower than someone running at you? Can you tell me how long you should run away before you shoot someone that is failing to stop with a knife in their hands?

Seriously.

 

[nimbus]

I am not debating if there are poor policing/training or if they are trigger happy. But if a person has a knife and keeps coming towards you, who are on drugs or having a psychotic breakthrough, then what would you do if you were a cop?

Just curious. Are you going to keep backing away while he walks towards you? Do you realize that backing away has tripping tendencies on top of it being slower than someone running at you? Can you tell me how long you should run away before you shoot someone that is failing to stop with a knife in their hands?

Seriously.

I would run away rather than shoot someone but maybe that’s why I’m a doctor and not a police officer.

 

[DocMcCoy]

I don’t have time to bring up all the links, but being a police officer actually isn’t one of the most dangerous jobs in this country. So that’s another thing that people give the police too much credit for, as there are plenty of other jobs where people are risking their lives everyday as well. Many (most?) of them are also low paying. So yeah that’s a poor excuse that just because they chose their career field and there’s some risk to it they can indiscriminately kill people if they’re the slightest bit spooked. Again, why have the police in other rich countries figured out how to not kill so many citizens but we can’t?

There are many many links that disagree with you. Most reasonable people would disagree with you. You can hate cops if you want. It’s a free country. But. wow.

 

[AMEHigh]

And let’s look at everything that happened before that exact moment that he was possibly moving toward them with a knife (I refuse to watch the video again and from what I recall he definitely wasn’t running towards them with a knife).

Why were the police the ones to show up if they called for mental health reasons? Why did they get out of their cars? Why were they chasing him? Did they need to yell at him? Did they need their guns drawn? Why didn’t they have tasers? Why do all police have guns, but only 1/3 in philly have tasers?

Police don’t all need guns. I’m fairly confident that if the police didn’t have guns in this situation they would’ve handled it differently and no one would’ve ended up dead. They were in a residential neighborhood as well, so another reason to not be so trigger happy. If they have to show up on these type of calls, why can’t they approach it like they don’t have guns? It seems like they do not practice the do no harm approach.

 

[AMEHigh]

There are many many links that disagree with you. Most reasonable people would disagree with you. You can hate cops if you want. It’s a free country. But. wow.

I never said I hate police.
I just said they don’t have the most dangerous job in america so that’s not an excuse that they can treat people poorly and kill them.

 

[DocMcCoy]

I never said I hate police.
I just said they don’t have the most dangerous job in america so that’s not an excuse that they can treat people poorly and kill them.

No you said they don’t have one of the most dangerous jobs. Which is 100 percent false. And they have the ONLY job where the leading cause of fatalities is direct violence from other people.

 

[emergentmd]

I would run away rather than shoot someone but maybe that’s why I’m a doctor and not a police officer.

It sounds great and if we were playing a video game, I would wholeheartedly agree to run.

So you are a police that runs away from someone with a knife? Are you really serious? Lets look at the likely scenerios

1. You run away safely, thug with knife gets tired and gives up safely
2. You run away and trip, thug stabs you
3. You run away and thug slashes innocent bystanders

Running away is the LAST action I would want to see from a police officer.

 

[emergentmd]

And let’s look at everything that happened before that exact moment that he was possibly moving toward them with a knife (I refuse to watch the video again and from what I recall he definitely wasn’t running towards them with a knife).

Why were the police the ones to show up if they called for mental health reasons? Why did they get out of their cars? Why were they chasing him? Did they need to yell at him? Did they need their guns drawn? Why didn’t they have tasers? Why do all police have guns, but only 1/3 in philly have tasers?

Police don’t all need guns. I’m fairly confident that if the police didn’t have guns in this situation they would’ve handled it differently and no one would’ve ended up dead. They were in a residential neighborhood as well, so another reason to not be so trigger happy. If they have to show up on these type of calls, why can’t they approach it like they don’t have guns? It seems like they do not practice the do no harm approach.

Gosh, this is just plain dumb. I am not even going to try and debate this.

Let me just point out that black guy had knife who was around innocent people including family members clearly having violent tendencies. Lets look at your fairy tail scenerio.

1. Why were the police the ones to show up if they called for mental health reasons? Who do you want to show up with someone carrying a knife and possibly a gun? Seriously tell me. A social worker while he slashes everyone in site.

2. Why did they get out of their cars? Guy had knife potentially going to slash bystanders. If I was in the vicinity, I sure as heck would want the police to stop this guy rather than sitting in his car.

3. Did they need their guns drawn? Dude had a knife around bystanders. What do you want them to do? They had their gun drawn so they can shoot his A$$ before he hurts someone.

4. Why didn’t they have tasers? Learn about tasers fail rate before you make such a ignorant statement. Lethal situations require lethan actions.

5. Police don’t all need guns. Then don't call in the police. Create a social worker taskforce and good luck having them deal with a guy with a knife.

6. They were in a residential neighborhood as well, so another reason to not be so trigger happy. If they have to show up on these type of calls, why can’t they approach it like they don’t have guns? Again, guy had a lethal weapon. Are police to wait til he stabs someone before they can draw their guns?

I can clearly see where the defund mantra comes from and usually it is in places with a spike in crime. How is NYC doing with the defunding?

 

[AMEHigh]

No you said they don’t have one of the most dangerous jobs. Which is 100 percent false. And they have the ONLY job where the leading cause of fatalities is direct violence from other people.

I should’ve clarified, when I said most, they don’t have one of the top 10 most dangerous jobs in the country by fatality rate. Fatalities are tracked by profession and on every list I’ve previously seen they don’t make the top 10. Below is one I just quickly googled, I’m sure there are others.

Also, although it’s rare, I think cashiers leading cause of death is also through direct violence from others. So no police aren’t the only ones who face violence/fatality on the job from others.

So I’m just pointing out that police don’t have the monopoly of the only ones being in dangerous jobs or being i dangerous situations where there could be violence. It really is not an excuse for being trigger happy or just in general how they treat people.

The 34 deadliest jobs in America

Some jobs have a higher risk of fatal injuries than others, such as fishing and logging workers, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

www.google.com

 

[Southpaw]

I am not debating if there are poor policing/training or if they are trigger happy. But if a person has a knife and keeps coming towards you, who are on drugs or having a psychotic breakthrough, then what would you do if you were a cop?

Just curious. Are you going to keep backing away while he walks towards you? Do you realize that backing away has tripping tendencies on top of it being slower than someone running at you? Can you tell me how long you should run away before you shoot someone that is failing to stop with a knife in their hands?

Seriously.

Honestly if I have the gun and them a knife, and they know that, I’m not too terribly concerned.

 

[DocMcCoy]

I should’ve clarified, when I said most, they don’t have one of the top 10 most dangerous jobs in the country by fatality rate. Fatalities are tracked by profession and on every list I’ve previously seen they don’t make the top 10. Below is one I just quickly googled, I’m sure there are others.

Also, although it’s rare, I think cashiers leading cause of death is also through direct violence from others. So no police aren’t the only ones who face violence/fatality on the job from others.

So I’m just pointing out that police don’t have the monopoly of the only ones being in dangerous jobs or being i dangerous situations where there could be violence. It really is not an excuse for being trigger happy or just in general how they treat people.

The 34 deadliest jobs in America

Some jobs have a higher risk of fatal injuries than others, such as fishing and logging workers, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

www.google.com

So, police do have a dangerous job. One could argue very dangerous? Fatalities are most likely do to violence? Maybe we can give them credit for this?

The only problem I have with your position is painting every law enforcement officer with the same giant brush. unless you truly believe all or most cops are trigger happy and treat people poorly.

 

[DocMcCoy]

Honestly if I have the gun and them a knife, and they know that, I’m not too terribly concerned.

If they are within 20 ft of you. You should be

 

[AMEHigh]

So, police do have a dangerous job. One could argue very dangerous? Fatalities are most likely do to violence? Maybe we can give them credit for this?

The only problem I have with your position is painting every law enforcement officer with the same giant brush. unless you truly believe all or most cops are trigger happy and treat people poorly.

I’m not sure what you mean "give them credit." Yes it’s more dangerous than being a physician for example, but not one of the most dangerous jobs in the US. The person I quoted essentially said we can’t expect police to be top intellect because they don’t get paid very well and the job is dangerous. I was just pointing out that that’s not an excuse for a lot of the negative things that go on within police departments and how they treat people, including killing people. If anything, they should be smarter with critical thinking skills standards since they Have people’s lives in their hands.

I think it’s an overall problem that needs to be addressed because it’s not only Black people like me and my family who are treated poorly (in general) by police but it’s an across the board problem.

Like someone posted above there are a lot of systems in place and reasons why the police get away with what they do get away with. So all of that needs to change. Of course there are nice police officers, and I don’t hate police officers, but that doesn’t mean I don’t think that there are systemic problems that need to change that have been around for a long time.

And like I said above, there are also problems within medicine in particular with bias and racism, which is another talk for another day. I’m obviously part of the system by being a physician, so of course I understand what it can feel like to be under scrutiny (plenty of people don’t trust/like doctors), but that doesn’t mean my first reaction is to get defensive. I 100% agree there are things that need to change within medicine as well, even though I’m one of those nice doctors who treats my patients well.

 

[Southpaw]

If they are within 20 ft of you. You should be

Why? There were 2 cops, guns drawn, and a crazy man holding a knife. In any conceivable scenario if/when it goes down there is NO chance the dude with the knife makes it out alive unless he’s Chuck Norris.

 

[DocMcCoy]

I’m not sure what you mean "give them credit." Yes it’s more dangerous than being a physician for example, but not one of the most dangerous jobs in the US. The person I quoted essentially said we can’t expect police to be top intellect because they don’t get paid very well and the job is dangerous. I was just pointing out that that’s not an excuse for a lot of the negative things that go on within police departments and how they treat people, including killing people. If anything, they should be smarter with critical thinking skills standards since they Have people’s lives in their hands.

I think it’s an overall problem that needs to be addressed because it’s not only Black people like me and my family who are treated poorly (in general) by police but it’s an across the board problem.

Like someone posted above there are a lot of systems in place and reasons why the police get away with what they do get away with. So all of that needs to change. Of course there are nice police officers, and I don’t hate police officers, but that doesn’t mean I don’t think that there are systemic problems that need to change that have been around for a long time.

And like I said above, there are also problems within medicine in particular with bias and racism, which is another talk for another day. I’m obviously part of the system by being a physician, so of course I understand what it can feel like to be under scrutiny (plenty of people don’t trust/like doctors), but that doesn’t mean my first reaction is to get defensive. I 100% agree there are things that need to change within medicine as well, even though I’m one of those nice doctors who treats my patients well.

Totally reasonable and not much if anything to disagree with here.

But this post is a far cry from the position of your post that prompted my initial response in which you essentially said they get too much credit because their job isn’t that dangerous and insinuated that they are a bunch of trigger happy idiots.

 

[DocMcCoy]

Why? There were 2 cops, guns drawn, and a crazy man holding a knife. In any conceivable scenario if/when it goes down there is NO chance the dude with the knife makes it out alive unless he’s Chuck Norris.

google it. And then realize why you don’t know what you are talking about.

 

[epidural man]

@ mark 1:45

 

[BobLoblaw78]

I think it is interesting that people don't want to do the job b/c it is too difficult or they would run, but willing to throw stones at those who step up to do it for pay less than teachers.

Expecting the same job performance for a different amount of pay is silly. You pay someone less money, then expect less quality. If you want better police officers, then pay them more. Not less. There will be better quality of people that you can hire. Some people seem to make this case with anesthesia.

There is definitely people drawn to police work that abuse it. I am not sure how you fix that other than more accountability. There have been jerk police officers that try to throw their authority around.

I find it mindboggling and insincere to judge a whole specialty, I mean profession, based off of the worst performers in obvious difficult situations.

I am against police murdering innocent minorities. I will stand against it in every case. I like to believe everyone is pretty much on the same page. To believe there will ever be a system that prevents this 100% of the time before the crime happens took Minority Report as nonfiction. There will be doctors that kill people and we can't stop that but we can hold them accountable.

Some of the people that don't know how to best handle these situations (including me) are the ones throwing out their superior solutions from a keyboard (as opposed to being in the heat of the moment). Just imagine if you had a patient that got hypoxia (from stress induced pulmonary edema, kakotsubo, anaphylaxis or any other 100 causes) and someone says "you should just give them more oxygen or remove the pulmonary edema from the lungs". It sounds good, but really it sounds stupid.

The police do have to work on bring down the shooting that happen, but I think that involves spending more money, not less.

Sometimes tragedies happen and sometimes it is negligence but these 20 second twitter takes before all the information is in are irresponsible. I feel for the families and the victims, but making others victims does not better the situation.

I try to personalize it by imagining my loved ones in the position of the ones killed and I feel terrible but still can't see the outrage/argument that some people have.

TLDR....don't blame you.

 

[greatnt249]

Why? There were 2 cops, guns drawn, and a crazy man holding a knife. In any conceivable scenario if/when it goes down there is NO chance the dude with the knife makes it out alive unless he’s Chuck Norris.

Because it's been demonstrated that a threat can close in on you in the time it takes for you to react if they're within 21 feet of you.

 

[Southpaw]

Because it's been demonstrated that a threat can close in on you before you have time to react if they're within 21 feet of you.

yeah I googled it. It makes a lot of assumptions, mostly the gun is holstered and the guy with the knife is skilled. It’s also a scenario mostly used to train police and special forces to shoot to kill.

can we be realistic? Two guys with guns drawn vs crazy man with knife. My moneys on the guys with guns.

 

[greatnt249]

yeah I googled it. It makes a lot of assumptions, mostly the gun is holstered and the guy with the knife is skilled. It’s also a scenario mostly used to train police and special forces to shoot to kill.

can we be realistic? Two guys with guns drawn vs crazy man with knife. My moneys on the guys with guns.

The point stands, you might walk away after getting shots off, but that doesn't mean you won't be injured/maimed/worse in the process. 7 yards seems far away until it isn't...that's being realistic.

 

[DocMcCoy]

yeah I googled it. It makes a lot of assumptions, mostly the gun is holstered and the guy with the knife is skilled. It’s also a scenario mostly used to train police and special forces to shoot to kill.

can we be realistic? Two guys with guns drawn vs crazy man with knife. My moneys on the guys with guns.

Lol here we go now you are an expert after your 5 minute google search.

 

[Southpaw]

Lol here we go now you are an expert after your 5 minute google search.

you’re the one who told me to search google. And I’m no expert.

 

[DocMcCoy]

you’re the one who told me to search google. And I’m no expert.

Clearly. And you are making assumptions you know nothing about.

there is seriously some WebMD mom phenomenon going on in this thread.

anyway, what I’m referring to and having been trained in is the Tueller drill. Basically a drill taught in surviving edge weapons classes for law enforcement and military. My cohort had about a 50 percent first time pass in the drill many moons ago. In a training scenario. So ya it’s a way to remind you that knives are like really dangerous. Especially in the hands of a crazy person threatening violence.

imagine the scenario as a law enforcement officer in this situation with that knowledge.

But sure, talk them down, run away, or shoot them in the leg.

 

[Southpaw]

Clearly. And you are making assumptions you know nothing about.

there is seriously some WebMD mom phenomenon going on in this thread.

anyway, what I’m referring to and having been trained in is the Tueller drill. Basically a drill taught in surviving edge weapons classes for law enforcement and military. My cohort had about a 50 percent first time pass in the drill many moons ago. In a training scenario. So ya it’s a way to remind you that knives are like really dangerous. Especially in the hands of a crazy person threatening violence.

imagine the scenario as a law enforcement officer in this situation with that knowledge.

But sure, talk them down, run away, or shoot them in the leg.

the tueller drill is 1 v 1 and starts w a holstered weapon. Like I said up there. Not 2 v 1, w 1 being crazy and knived, and 2 being trained officers w guns drawn.

you can analogize the scenarios all you want but they’re totally different.

and read closely. Not once in this thread have I said those officers shouldn’t defend themselves.

 

[DocMcCoy]

the tueller drill is 1 v 1 and starts w a holstered weapon. Like I said up there. Not 2 v 1, w 1 being crazy and knived, and 2 being trained officers w guns drawn.

you can analogize the scenarios all you want but they’re totally different.

and read closely. Not once in this thread have I said those officers shouldn’t defend themselves.

In a TRAINING scenario. And you are clearly missing the point of the drill. And there are a variety of ways to conduct the drill. But we digress...

You can either understand why you SHOULD be terribly concerned by a knife threat or you can’t.

I can explain to you but I can’t understand for you. Please don’t own a firearm.

 

[deleted480308]

yeah I googled it. It makes a lot of assumptions, mostly the gun is holstered and the guy with the knife is skilled. It’s also a scenario mostly used to train police and special forces to shoot to kill.

can we be realistic? Two guys with guns drawn vs crazy man with knife. My moneys on the guys with guns.

The issue is your “money being on the guys with guns” rests on the assumption they use those guns. So it doesn’t make sense to be decrying them for using the guns to defend themselves and justifying your criticism with a misplaced “why were you scared, you had guns!”

 

[greatnt249]

the tueller drill is 1 v 1 and starts w a holstered weapon. Like I said up there. Not 2 v 1, w 1 being crazy and knived, and 2 being trained officers w guns drawn.

you can analogize the scenarios all you want but they’re totally different.

and read closely. Not once in this thread have I said those officers shouldn’t defend themselves.

The point is to not have a false sense of security just because you have a ranged weapon when a potential threat is within closing distance, and that "closing distance" is farther away from you than what would seem to be intuitive.

 

[Southpaw]

The issue is your “money being on the guys with guns” rests on the assumption they use those guns. So it doesn’t make sense to be decrying them for using the guns to defend themselves and justifying your criticism with a misplaced “why were you scared, you had guns!”

like most of your posts, that one also made no sense.

 

[Southpaw]

In a TRAINING scenario. And you are clearly missing the point of the drill. And there are a variety of ways to conduct the drill. But we digress...

You can either understand why you SHOULD be terribly concerned by a knife threat or you can’t.

I can explain to you but I can’t understand for you. Please don’t own a firearm.

as far as I could tell in the video, the man posed no immediate threat. @vector2 also posted a video showing far different treatment with a white man holding a gun. That would be the most important, and really the only point that needs discussing.

but we’ve all discussed Ahmaud Arbery, Rayshard Brooks, Breonna Taylor, and now this. It’s always the same. Police in the right. Victim shouldn’t provoke. I believe the police had more right to defend themselves here than in any of the other situations we’ve discussed. But regardless, another man dead. More riots. More distrust of the police. Rinse. Repeat.

we either commit to confronting the problem or it gets worse. I certainly don’t think, as a whole, the police believe the problem lies with them.

 

[Wolverines83]

Not saving a person who was on the brink of death anyways due to human error is a lot different than taking the life of a young, physically healthy human being. The reasons that life was taken are variable but biases, poor training, and bad police culture should be considered.

With respect, there's more in common than you think. Is it fine vfib or something else? I better figure it out quick or patient dies.

Is he about to stab me or just waving the knife? Better figure it out quick or my kid doesn't have a dad.

I've been in both situations (not a knife being waved, but Iraqi with a cell phone vs IED trigger) and split second decisions aren't always correct.

To be completely transparent, I've tried finding videos of what happened but have been unsuccessful at finding one that's not censored. I'm also not very good at the interwebs. I'm not specifically taking a stand on what happened because I don't know the facts but I think it's wrong to judge someone for their split second decision.

 

[DocMcCoy]

as far as I could tell in the video, the man posed no immediate threat. @vector2 also posted a video showing far different treatment with a white man holding a gun. That would be the most important, and really the only point that needs discussing.

exactly why maybe we (and I’m not saying you specifically) shouldnt armchair quarterback this thing with our limited knowledge and expertise. At least regarding the specifics of the case.

But I literally agree with pretty much everything else you said there!

There are some bad/reckless/bigoted/untrained law enforcement officers. Clearly there needs to be some reform.

 

[Wolverines83]

Just my theory but it seems like our police have lost the mindset of being “servant and protector” and adopted one of being the “enforcer”.

Just an anecdote:

My brother in law is a police officer and he has a disagreement with his own brother in law in the same department. My brother in law says that they are there to serve the population. The other guy says "no, we are the protectors, the sheep dogs!" I like my brother in law's view better!

(did we keep the brothers in law straight?)

 

[nimbus]

Just an anecdote:

My brother in law is a police officer and he has a disagreement with his own brother in law in the same department. My brother in law says that they are there to serve the population. The other guy says "no, we are the protectors, the sheep dogs!" I like my brother in law's view better!

(did we keep the brothers in law straight?)

Think so, brother in law in law?

 

[Hoya11]

With respect, there's more in common than you think. Is it fine vfib or something else? I better figure it out quick or patient dies.

Is he about to stab me or just waving the knife? Better figure it out quick or my kid doesn't have a dad.

I've been in both situations (not a knife being waved, but Iraqi with a cell phone vs IED trigger) and split second decisions aren't always correct.

To be completely transparent, I've tried finding videos of what happened but have been unsuccessful at finding one that's not censored. I'm also not very good at the interwebs. I'm not specifically taking a stand on what happened because I don't know the facts but I think it's wrong to judge someone for their split second decision.

I have seen the video many times, my opinion:

Yes the dude was a threat.

But its 2020. How many other times has something similar happened?

What non lethal alternatives have been researched? why not ketamine here ?

The fact that there was no attempt at any other non -lethal modality like running away, ketamine dart, rubber bullets, i dont know a net??

There was just immediate shoot to kill.

It definitely gave a vibe of: I dont care about this guys life - I care about protecting my own life. And thats not really their job. This guy was a life who needed protecting too. Did they do their duty by him? Did they do the best they could to get him out of this situation? Who was he going to stab in the immediate vicintiy? (no one else around)

Here we are going into COVID rooms for 80 year olds. Our families and our lives at risk at home.

Thats what we do as a society, we take care of the old, the sick, the mentally ill, we risk our lives to do it - to a degree.. to what degree did they take on risk here for this guys benefit? None.

 

[greatnt249]

I have seen the video many times, my opinion:

Yes the dude was a threat.

But its 2020. How many other times has something similar happened?

What non lethal alternatives have been researched? why not ketamine here ?

The fact that there was no attempt at any other non -lethal modality like running away, ketamine dart, rubber bullets, i dont know a net??

There was just immediate shoot to kill.

It definitely gave a vibe of: I dont care about this guys life - I care about protecting my own life. And thats not really their job. This guy was a life who needed protecting too. Did they do their duty by him? Did they do the best they could to get him out of this situation? Who was he going to stab in the immediate vicintiy? (no one else around)

Here we are going into COVID rooms for 80 year olds. Our families and our lives at risk at home.

Thats what we do as a society, we take care of the old, the sick, the mentally ill, we risk our lives to do it - to a degree.. to what degree did they take on risk here for this guys benefit? None.

Walking into a room to treat someone who is COVID positive is not the same as having someone chase you down with a weapon, full-stop. "Nonlethal" is also a misnomer.

 

[emergentmd]

Anyone who thinks someone with a knife coming at you is not an immediate threat needs to look at countless videos of police shooting someone well over 10 times before they are stopped. Unless you hit someone in the brain, vital organ, spinal cord, they will keep running at you.

If you are 20 feet away, that is literally 4 strides and 4 seconds before they stab you. 5 seconds is not much time to decide to shoot someone. Wait 2 seconds, and a knife will be in your chest after your first bullet is fired.

If I am a cop and I see a threat on my life, and he is coming at me, I am emptying my gun and making sure I have the best survival chance. Even if 1 bullet stops someone 80% of the time (which is high), then I am not risking bodily harm 20%. I am unloading my 10+ bullets as fast as I can.

 

[nimbus]

Look who our peers are on this list. Maybe we are a lawless 3rd world sh*thole and cannot do better.

Killings by law enforcement. Rates and counts by country - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[BobLoblaw78]

This video opened my eyes some. This was before all the latest criticism (over 5 years ago).

The guy in this video protested against cops before it was cool. Then tries it out himself. (And in this scenario neither guy had a knife that he was stopping)