Another shooting, more riots.

[Hoya11]

---

Members don't see this ad.

Solution: Train cops to use curare tipped blow darts and intubate the aggressor after they're down.

At least they would have some chance of survival!

 

[Hoya11]

Using Ketamine or net? I missed that and was great for a laugh. Why not a pillow. Why not just using harsh words. How about a water pistol.

Guy comes at me with a knife. I pull out my syringe of ketamine. He stabs me while I stab him with ketamine. I would be dead 5 minutes before he feels the affects.

Net. How in gods name are you going to deploy a net in 5 secs when he is running at you. I can't believe how asinine some people are.

What you saw can not be the solution all the time.

I am not so closed minded to believe there is not a better way to handle this. But thanks for bullying people to accept the status quo and stop pushing for improvement.

 

[Southpaw]

So this is an example of maddening police behavior.

This woman was on her way to pick up her child. She encountered a protest and was told to turn around. While turning around the police bust open the windows of the car and pull her and her 2 year old child out. She was injured, taken to the hospital and separated from her child for hours. Then the fraternal order of the police posted videos stating that this child was just found wandering the streets and the police protected the child.

So now this woman likely has a hospital bill, has a car repair bill from the police smashing the windows and the trauma that her and her child had to endure.

Absolutely ridiculous.

Redirect Notice

she needs a lawyer. Taxpayers will owe her millions for what appears to be another colossal police screwup. But. They’re the ‘thin blue line’. The ‘only thing between order and anarchy’. So. It is what it is.

 

[greatnt249]

What you saw can not be the solution all the time.

I am not so closed minded to believe there is not a better way to handle this. But thanks for bullying people to accept the status quo and stop pushing for improvement.

Saw in which situation? No one is saying the only solution is shooting in every situation.

 

[Southpaw]

What you saw can not be the solution all the time.

I am not so closed minded to believe there is not a better way to handle this. But thanks for bullying people to accept the status quo and stop pushing for improvement.

it will likely require a complete revamping of the system. How they’re recruited. How they’re trained. How they’re monitored. External review of events. Community policing. Living in the communities they police. And it’ll all be done against their will.

the response here, from physicians, should be proof enough. Yes, their jobs are dangerous. Yes, they should protect themselves. Yes, they aren’t trained well enough and aren’t paid enough. And yes, too many die at their hands.

 

[fakin' the funk]

I find it very interesting that on a medical forum, no one is mentioning the obvious: It was the medical system's failure to help this mentally ill man that ultimately led to his death.

I haven't read up on this specific case, but appears to be the routine story of a person struggling with mental health issues, out in society, a danger to himself and others, and the family has no recourse other than to call for help AFTER the person becomes violent. If they call for assistance BEFORE the person turns violent, they are told by the police that there is nothing that they can do to intervene. The police's role in these cases is only to deal with people who have escalated to violence, often times AFTER a family member has been injured or murdered.

When an ambulance is called to collect a mentally ill person who is lashing out, the police are sent as well, for the protection of the first responders. The idea that we can just send a social worker to the scene is a fantasy, and he or she would be put in the same dangerous situation. Perhaps a psychiatric physician should be dispatched to the scene? Would you support one of your own profession being the sacrificial lamb in this case? You think the psychiatrist has a magic wand to turn a violent schizophrenic into a passive and complaint person with just words? What would they do in this case?

The shortcomings of our mental health care system is a stain upon all of our medical professions. Something needs to be done to improve and expand our mental health care system. More money. More inpatient services. I, for one, am sick and tired of hearing "Oh, he fell through the cracks of the system" after a case like this, or a family member being killed, or a mass shooting, or... Lots of fingers being pointed at the police, but, I say, look in the mirror, people. We failed this man, and now he is dead.

Nice post.

The reason no one talks about these issues on here is because this forum leans strongly right and wealthy, and is enamored with the cult of "personal responsibility."

 

[AMEHigh]

she needs a lawyer. Taxpayers will owe her millions for what appears to be another colossal police screwup. But. They’re the ‘thin blue line’. The ‘only thing between order and anarchy’. So. It is what it is.

Yep. But unfortunately a lawyer doesn’t take away the trauma of the situation.

 

[GaseousClay]

Nice post.

The reason no one talks about these issues on here is because this forum leans strongly right and wealthy, and is enamored with the cult of "personal responsibility."

total bullshiz. there are plenty of liberals on this forum and you can clearly see its not just a majority right from this thread alone.

 

[DocMcCoy]

it will likely require a complete revamping of the system. How they’re recruited. How they’re trained. How they’re monitored. External review of events. Community policing. Living in the communities they police. And it’ll all be done against their will.

the response here, from physicians, should be proof enough. Yes, their jobs are dangerous. Yes, they should protect themselves. Yes, they aren’t trained well enough and aren’t paid enough. And yes, too many die at their hands.

Nice post.

The reason no one talks about these issues on here is because this forum leans strongly right and wealthy, and is enamored with the cult of "personal responsibility."

This is interesting snd it’s not a knock one way or the other. My view (admittedly right leaning) is that there is a left slant to the forum. I’m not saying I’m right or you are wrong just an interesting observation that we could observe a different slant one way or the other.

 

[Twiggidy]

This is interesting snd it’s not a knock one way or the other. My view (admittedly right leaning) is that there is a left slant to the forum. I’m not saying I’m right or you are wrong just an interesting observation that we could observe a different slant one way or the other.

I think our little family is what we would like our politicians to be and that is pretty social liberal but fiscally conservative. There are a handful of extremers that show their heads here and there but I would take a very big leap that most on here are the true definition of moderates.

 

[Southpaw]

Exactly. I've shot deer literally in the heart with a fairly large rifle round (.30-06 if you're curious) and they'll still make it a good 50 yards before dropping.

deer are amazingly aerobic animals. Far
more so than humans. It’s rare for them to sit idle in a days time. Still, put a bullet through both lungs and the heart and they’ll drop fairly quickly.

 

[greatnt249]

Still, put a bullet through both lungs and the heart and they’ll drop fairly quickly.

The shot becomes more difficult with the deer shooting back at you. I wasn't saying that it's impossible to drop after being shot once in the right place, or that someone's instinct wouldn't be to go to ground after being hit. My point was that it's not fair assume that these things will happen and that it's not "out of the norm" for it to not be immediately apparent that they've been shot a few times, especially if they don't go to ground right away.

 

[Southpaw]

The shot becomes more difficult with the deer shooting back at you. I wasn't saying that it's impossible to drop after being shot once in the right place, or that someone's instinct wouldn't be to go to ground after being hit. My point was that it's not fair assume that these things will happen and that it's not "out of the norm" for it to not be immediately apparent that they've been shot a few times, especially if they don't go to ground right away.

if the victim is armed and there’s an imminent threat of attack police should defend themselves and those in danger.

most of the people we’ve discussed here have been unarmed.

all of this is irrelevant to my comment about the aerobic capacity of deer.

 

[Southpaw]

This is interesting snd it’s not a knock one way or the other. My view (admittedly right leaning) is that there is a left slant to the forum. I’m not saying I’m right or you are wrong just an interesting observation that we could observe a different slant one way or the other.

since you quoted me I’ll only say I’m very liberal socially but conservative fiscally. And I believe Donald Trump was sent here by satan, so there’s that. But since we mostly discuss social issues here my liberalism shines brighter.

 

[greatnt249]

if the victim is armed and there’s an imminent threat of attack police should defend themselves and those in danger.

most of the people we’ve discussed here have been unarmed.

all of this is irrelevant to my comment about the aerobic capacity of deer.

Humans are very aerobic over long distances as well compared to many animals; it's how we used to hunt. How cultivated that aerobic capacity is is another story. So no, it's not irrelevant.

 

[Twiggidy]

since you quoted me I’ll only say I’m very liberal socially but conservative fiscally. And I believe Donald Trump was sent here by satan, so there’s that. But since we mostly discuss social issues here my liberalism shines brighter.

Literally chuckled out loud

 

[greatnt249]

Personal politics aside, if I had concerns regarding police training it would be 1) the lack of standardization in training, 2) a trend toward quasi-paramilitary training as opposed to an emphasis on being servants of their communities, which leads to 3) the progressive tendency toward an "us versus them" mentality, and the 4) perception that they value internal support above community support (is not meant to be sweeping generalization, but definitely does not contribute to good public relations when not addressed).

 

[vector2]

I disagree with your reasoning as to why no one else brought up my point. I wrote the post, and most members here would label me as "strongly right," I would be classified as wealthy, and I very strongly believe in the concept of 'personal responsibility.'

I think the reason that no one else made the point is:

1) because it is easier to find blame in 'others' rather than in 'one of our own.' It's easier for us not to examine or discuss the shortcomings within the medical profession/mental health care system ('our own'). We don't want to draw attention to a failure of 'one of us,' especially when this failure persists year after year, decade after decade.
No, it's easier to turn the conversation to criticize 'the other,' the police. It's actually evolutionary psychology to rally around your own tribe, your own profession, your own family, your own race. It's probably one of the reasons that these discussions about policing go off the rails and into 2 distinct camps.

and

2) I tend to think about things from a different angle than most people, and I'm not afraid to show that.

A large percentage of very mentally ill people (especially ones who would be prone to violence without treatment) don't exactly have Blue Cross Blue Shield. Maybe you're different, but the vast majority of "strongly right, wealthy, 'believe in personal responsibility'" types would vote R in a heartbeat if it meant they would save a dollar on taxpayer funded mental health screening and services.

 

[dhb]

A large percentage of very mentally ill people (especially ones who would be prone to violence without treatment) don't exactly have Blue Cross Blue Shield. Maybe you're different, but the vast majority of "strongly right, wealthy, 'believe in personal responsibility'" types would vote R in a heartbeat if it meant they would save a dollar on taxpayer funded mental health screening and services.

 

[deleted500612]

But it was non-lethal and appeared to be intended as such. The point is that there are many instances where police are going out of their way to not fire 25 rounds immediately at a suspect wielding a knife, and more broadly the point is that the police are not applying non-lethal force (or an attempt at non-lethal force) consistently.

The video you linked was in Australia (completely different societies and different policing styles), and also the knife-wielding man was not coming at any of those officers. Apples to oranges. If you want to compare racial outcomes you must first control the confounders like the videos taking place in completely different countries with different societal problems (much more guns and violent crime in the US) and different policing styles. The video serves as a better example to contrast American vs Australian policing rather than alleged racial discrepancies.

 

[vector2]

The video you linked was in Australia (completely different societies and different policing styles), and also the knife-wielding man was not coming at any of those officers. Apples to oranges. If you want to compare racial outcomes you must first control the confounders like the videos taking place in completely different countries with different societal problems (much more guns and violent crime in the US) and different policing styles. The video serves as a better example to contrast American vs Australian policing rather than alleged racial discrepancies.

He absolutely is walking towards them. And he attempts to do so multiple times, in fact. And he attempts to stab through the driver side window of the unmarked police SUV that's trying to block him. Additionally, Australia has plenty of perceived and/or actual problems with racial disparities in law enforcement and criminal justice, however it's toward Aboriginal peoples. The fact that they may have different policing styles is not mutually exclusive with also having elements of racial bias with regard to their police's application of force.

 

[RemyMcswain]

I’m viewing whole thing as analogous to a catastrophic event in the hospital. Just as a doctor may make a mistake that costs a life, we *try* and find reasons for how that action came to be. Rather than blame the doctor we do a root cause analysis. If you do a root cause analysis of that situation one may find the following problems:

-lack of adequate mental health programs in the US
-lack of adequate general health care
-gross income inequality
-armed US populace
-divestment of resources from communities of color
-inadequate de escalation training of police
-police that are not from the community they are policing

the list goes on. I legitimately feel bad for that man, his family, and everyone in that neighborhood. I also feel bad for the honest police who are asked to do an impossible job given all the above systemic problems. This country is a ****ing **** show. When police come face to face with a man, regardless of color, who is suffering like this guy is, I feel like we all need to examine that interaction and understand how the two of them even got to that place.

 

[deleted500612]

He absolutely is walking towards them. And he attempts to do so multiple times, in fact. And he attempts to stab through the driver side window of the unmarked police SUV that's trying to block him. Additionally, Australia has plenty of perceived and/or actual problems with racial disparities in law enforcement and criminal justice, however it's toward Aboriginal peoples. The fact that they may have different policing styles is not mutually exclusive with also having elements of racial bias.

So do you have a video of Australian cops shooting a black person under similar circumstances? If so, then you might have an argument. But as it stands you are just contrasting the differences between American and Australian policing methods. In most other western countries the cops are far less trigger happy in general, regardless of race of individual.

 

[vector2]

So do you have a video of Australian cops shooting a black person under similar circumstances? If so, then you might have an argument. But as it stands you are just contrasting the differences between American and Australian policing methods. In most other western countries the cops are far less trigger happy in general, regardless of race of individual.

Nah, I have an argument. I'm satisfied that even with different policing styles there is some evidence of an analogous racial bias based on the article I linked


--------
‘We’re Just So Angry’: Australians Protest Police Killing of Aboriginal Teenager
After initially saying the 19-year-old had lunged at the police with a weapon, the authorities later charged an officer with murder and opened an investigation.


SYDNEY, Australia — Thousands of Australians have taken to the streets this week to protest the police killing of an Aboriginal teenager in a remote community, a case that has added fuel to long-simmering anger over the government’s behavior toward the country’s Indigenous people.

On Wednesday, the police officer who fatally shot the 19-year-old man, Kumanjayi Walker, in the central Australian town of Yuendumu was charged with murder. But questions have continued to swirl about what happened when officers were alone with Mr. Walker, as well as how he and his family were treated in the hours that followed.

Mr. Walker did not receive medical care after he was shot on Saturday, because staff had evacuated the clinic in Yuendumu earlier in the day over safety concerns. That left any medical emergencies to be handled by another clinic nearly 40 miles away.

And after Mr. Walker died, family members who waited outside a police station were not informed about his death until 10 hours later.

“I just cry every day and night,” Napurrurla, Mr. Walker’s grandmother, said in a phone interview from Alice Springs, where most of the community had gathered on Thursday for a march. “We’re just so angry.”

The protests in recent days, in both remote areas and major cities, have reflected the fury and grief among Indigenous people who say they are sick of police brutality.

People in Yuendumu painted red handprints on the police station and held an Indigenous smoking ceremony. They later traveled hours away to Alice Springs to demand transparency from the police. And in major cities across Australia on Wednesday, hundreds of other protesters gathered, some holding signs carrying messages like “Black Lives Matter.”

More than 400 Indigenous people have died while in custody since 1991, the year that a royal commission made 339 recommendations to reduce such deaths. While inquiries have uncovered medical malpractice, no police officer has ever been prosecuted for murder. In 2007, a police officer was acquitted of manslaughter after the death of a man on Palm Island, off the country’s northeastern coast, led to months of riots.

“People have always been very frightened about being in the cells,” said Yasmine Musharbash, a senior lecturer in anthropology at the Australian National University who has been living in Yuendumu. “Now you have mothers telling children to stay the hell away from police. It means that any one of them can shoot you.”

On the day he died, Mr. Walker, a member of the Warlpiri Indigenous group, was in Yuendumu for his grandfather’s funeral, his family and community elders said.

Northern Territory police officials initially said that Mr. Walker had lunged with a weapon at a police officer and that two shots had been fired in an ensuing struggle.

But on Thursday, after the officer, Zachary Rolfe, 28, had been charged with one count of murder and then granted bail, police officials said that an investigation would be opened into the episode. They asked the community to “trust the process.”

“Our sincere condolences go to the deceased man’s family, the Yuendumu and wider Warlpiri community,” said Michael White, the acting deputy police commissioner in the Northern Territory.

Mr. Rolfe will plead not guilty and will “vigorously contest the charge,” Paul McCue, the president of the Northern Territory Police Association, said in a statement.

While the decision to grant bail worried many in Yuendumu, the charges brought hope that justice would be served, they said.

“We haven’t seen a response happen this quickly before,” said Priscilla Atkins, chief executive of the North Australian Aboriginal Justice Agency, who will represent the Walker family.

Otto Jungarrayi Sims, a senior traditional Warlpiri man, called it a monumental opportunity. “It’ll change the course of history for black people,” he said. “There is hope.”
--------

 

[doctalaughs]

I totally agree that police in this country are too trigger-happy and need better training, reform and accountability. I think there are plenty of instances where they should be investigated for brutality and therefore need to wear body-cams at all time.

I 100% disagree the scenario that started this thread is one of those situations. This is a cut-and-dry police use of justified lethal force that should not have even been a news story, and certainly is counter-productive to the protesters bringing attention against systemic racism.

If the police shoot at someone they mean to kill them. It doesn’t matter if they shoot 1 time or 100, not sure why that’s something people are obsessed over.

Do people seriously think the police were “justified” to shoot this guy twice, but not 7 times?

 

[vector2]

I have no idea how the majority of "strongly right, wealthy, 'believe in personal responsibility'" types feel about mental health care funding, and with all due respect, neither do you.

Sure I do

SAMHSA - Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration

SAMHSA leads efforts to advance behavioral health across the U.S., offering resources for mental health, substance use, and community well-being.

www.samhsa.gov

Furthermore:

" Medicaid is the single largest payer for mental health services in the United States and is increasingly playing a larger role in the reimbursement of substance use disorder services. "

Behavioral Health Services | Medicaid

Medicaid is the single largest payer for mental health services in the United States and is increasingly playing a larger role in the reimbursement of substance use disorder services. Individuals with a behavioral health disorder also utilize significant health care services—nearly 12 million...

www.medicaid.gov

Remind me again, what's the "strongly right" opinion toward medicaid expansion?

 

[emergentmd]

It's very clear that you think it is fully within the rights of cops to take lives, especially what you call "BLM/thugs."

Your dog whistle is loud, and you are the problem.

Typical left leaning statement. If you don't agree then you are racist. Easiest way to shut a conversation down using the racist card. Nice Cancel culture comment.

The left calls the right intolerant but deep down most know the left are the most intolerant group. They will accept if you agree. If not, then use the cancel card and shut down any conversation.

 

[epidural man]

typical liberal nonsense with pointing out what the source is first. i don't know or care what the daily caller is this is actual footage. The error which you and others willfully make is to overlook looting and destruction of property because "peaceful protests" of police violence is occuring at the same time. Interesting that almost every city with your so called peaceful protests there is destruction, rioting and looting that joins it.

I don't get your point. Can you explain?

 

[emergentmd]

I agree that Police needs better training and better recruits but unless you double their salary better recruits is not going to happen. If I have the capacity to make 150K/yr in a nice safe AC office, why would I ever want to be a cop for less unless I was built that way?

I don't care that the guy was black. If he was white, asian, mexican, canadian, red head, doctor, mayor, Ted Cruz, bipolar, schizo and came at police with a knife, I expect and hope they shoot to kill. Bottom line. Better to take him out rather than risking hurting the police or other bystanders.

Second, if I had a gun and some guy 10 feet was running towards me with a knife, you bet I would empty my chambers until he is on his knees.

I am sure the French church goers wished there was a brave parishioner with a gun to take that guy out before he beheaded a few people. Maybe the parishioners should have thrown bibles at him if there was not a net around.

 

[fakin' the funk]

Typical left leaning statement. If you don't agree then you are racist. Easiest way to shut a conversation down using the racist card. Nice Cancel culture comment.

The left calls the right intolerant but deep down most know the left are the most intolerant group. They will accept if you agree. If not, then use the cancel card and shut down any conversation.

Calling out racist dog whistles (BLM are thugs etc) isn't cancelling anything or shutting down conversation, it's calling a spade a spade.

Also, when a "conversation" involves, as a basic pretext, the inhumanity of one group or another, yes, that **** needs to be shut down. Conversations involve mutual respect, good faith, and don't involve name-calling or bad faith responses ("TYPICAL LEFT LEANING STATEMENT")

 

[fakin' the funk]

Typical left leaning statement. If you don't agree then you are racist. Easiest way to shut a conversation down using the racist card. Nice Cancel culture comment.

The left calls the right intolerant but deep down most know the left are the most intolerant group. They will accept if you agree. If not, then use the cancel card and shut down any conversation.

The talking point of "shutting down conversation" is typically perpetuated in support of hateful and bigoted ideas.

A tolerant and open society REQUIRES a degree of intolerance *OF INTOLERANCE.* Like, y'know, bigotry, fascism, homophobia, etc.

 

[Southpaw]

I have no idea how the majority of "strongly right, wealthy, 'believe in personal responsibility'" types feel about mental health care funding, and with all due respect, neither do you.

I only know what I personally believe: That I would support FREE mental health care (in an expanded and improved form with more inpatient beds) and FREE substance abuse rehabilitation programs (in expanded form with more inpatient beds) for all US citizens. If we could have a national 'moon shot' to tackle these 2 issues--mental health and addiction--society could take a huge leap forward, IMO. Would it be 100% effective? Probably not. But it is an investment and an endeavor that I believe has merit. I do not, however, believe that medical care is a right or that full free medical care should become the law of the land. I feel that mental health and addiction programs are sorely lacking and insufficient, and lead to many of society's problems. I would like to see them expanded and made available at no cost to those in need. If that takes special funding via my tax dollars, I'd have no problem with that.

Edited to add: I would like the above proposed program, and all government run programs, to be transparent about its costs and spending and the books to be open to public audits. I wouldn't want any shenanigans to go on like DeBlasio's wife who has taken all of that mental health funding with absolutely no results to show for it. Where has that money gone?

We do have an indication of how Republicans feel about the mentally ill. Jimmy Carter passed the mental health systems act in 1980. Reagan gutted it and has historically gotten credit for abolishing mental health care in the US. In my opinion mental health care in this country has never recovered.

We also know the severely mentally ill also have serious other issues. Poverty. Homelessness. Drug abuse. There currently is no good federal system for them in this country. Not since Reagan. By and large, in my opinion, they depend heavily on local programs geared at getting them jobs, homes, and medications for their illness.

 

[doctalaughs]

The talking point of "shutting down conversation" is typically perpetuated in support of hateful and bigoted ideas.

A tolerant and open society REQUIRES a degree of intolerance *OF INTOLERANCE.* Like, y'know, bigotry, fascism, homophobia, etc.

who are you talking about in terms of bigotry, fascism, homophobia? What “dog whistle” or racism are you talking about on this thread.

I saw some very good factual arguments about this specific situation from a right/conservative perspective... regarding when lethal force is necessary and then some statements that all riots should be condemned... which I *hope* we can all agree on as sane people.

And then you start ranting about dog whistles and bigotry and racism?

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

We do have an indication of how Republicans feel about the mentally ill. Jimmy Carter passed the mental health systems act in 1980. Reagan gutted it and has historically gotten credit for abolishing mental health care in the US. In my opinion mental health care in this country has never recovered.

We also know the severely mentally ill also have serious other issues. Poverty. Homelessness. Drug abuse. There currently is no good federal system for them in this country. Not since Reagan. By and large, in my opinion, they depend heavily on local programs geared at getting them jobs, homes, and medications for their illness.

Honest question: was Reagan the one who started getting rid of the long term asylums? Having done quite a bit of moonlighting at the local psych hospital, I think doing away with those has definitely harmed a certain segment of the severely mentally ill population.

 

[Southpaw]

Honest question: was Reagan the one who started getting rid of the long term asylums? Having done quite a bit of moonlighting at the local psych hospital, I think doing away with those has definitely harmed a certain segment of the severely mentally ill population.

Deinstitutionalization started in the 60s and 70s in CA, but picked up steam big time nationally with Reagan.

 

[greatnt249]

Before anyone tries to project a political angle onto my posts, it was my intent to remain as apolitical as possible; that is all...carry on.

 

[doctalaughs]

Honest question: was Reagan the one who started getting rid of the long term asylums? Having done quite a bit of moonlighting at the local psych hospital, I think doing away with those has definitely harmed a certain segment of the severely mentally ill population.

totally agree. If you are so severely mentally ill that there’s a good chance you can’t stop yourself from charging multiple LEOs with a knife.... All the officer training in the world won’t save your life. But long term asylum might.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

totally agree. If you are so severely mentally ill that there’s a good chance you can’t stop yourself from charging multiple LEOs with a knife.... All the officer training in the world won’t save your life. But long term asylum might.

I wasn't specifically referencing this guy. I worked about 1 weekend a month for right at a year. There were 3 patients that I admitted every other time I was working. They'd get admitted, stabilized, and discharged. Then they'd stop going to outpatient appointments, not get their haldol deconoate, decompensate and come right back.

 

[coffeebythelake]

she needs a lawyer. Taxpayers will owe her millions for what appears to be another colossal police screwup. But. They’re the ‘thin blue line’. The ‘only thing between order and anarchy’. So. It is what it is.

This is when it make sense for the Fraternal Order of Police or the police pension play pay up instead of the tax payers. Ridiculous.

 

[emergentmd]

The talking point of "shutting down conversation" is typically perpetuated in support of hateful and bigoted ideas.

A tolerant and open society REQUIRES a degree of intolerance *OF INTOLERANCE.* Like, y'know, bigotry, fascism, homophobia, etc.

Typical incoherent left speak when a debate is lost to twist it into, "look at me and my moral high ground so that makes you intolerant and I can't listen anymore". Typical left woes is me attitude. Carry on. Nothing I said was intolerant. If you are looting or you have a knife slashing people, then you are likely a thug. Call it intolerant but I am sure you would be the 1st to call 911 if someone with a knife was knocking on your door.

 

[fakin' the funk]

Typical incoherent left speak when a debate is lost to twist it into, "look at me and my moral high ground so that makes you intolerant and I can't listen anymore". Typical left woes is me attitude. Carry on. Nothing I said was intolerant. If you are looting or you have a knife slashing people, then you are likely a thug. Call it intolerant but I am sure you would be the 1st to call 911 if someone with a knife was knocking on your door.

One of us is incoherent.

 

[pgg]

Deinstitutionalization started in the 60s and 70s in CA, but picked up steam big time nationally with Reagan.

Deinstitutionalization was largely driven by changing attitudes towards the mostly terrible conditions and outright abuse endured by patients in asylums, and the well-meaning but naive/wrong belief that new antipsychotic drugs could cure mentally ill people, permit shifting treatment to outpatient settings, and allow the patients to lead normalish (or at least harmless) lives. I wouldn't lay their demise at the feet of stingy Republicans. It was mostly a result of enlightened and well meaning people engaged in a social justice experiment, before being a SJW was trendy. Just about everyone thought closing the asylums was the right thing to do.

 

[fakin' the funk]

who are you talking about in terms of bigotry, fascism, homophobia? What “dog whistle” or racism are you talking about on this thread.

I saw some very good factual arguments about this specific situation from a right/conservative perspective... regarding when lethal force is necessary and then some statements that all riots should be condemned... which I *hope* we can all agree on as sane people.

And then you start ranting about dog whistles and bigotry and racism?

You started with a reasonable question (later devolved into describing me as "ranting," regrettably) so I'll answer it.

Look at the title of this thread and the first post. This is nominally about how terrible it is that there are riots after police shootings of black people. This thread focuses primarily on police use of lethal force, but coded racist language has entered freely, with users at conflating BLM, "thugs," rioters, "destroying their own community," citing the Daily Caller, etc. Those are racist dog whistles. They point to black people being the cause of this problem (nominally, riots), rather than seeking to understand or explain. Focus on condemning riots is not a useful line of inquiry - only a select few anarchists etc don't condemn violence against people or property. "Lamenting" riots does little to explain why they happen or how they might be managed or prevented, just like few on the right wanted to understand why Colin Kaepernick was taking a knee. Citing a white nationalist outlet like the Daily Caller inflames this.

 

[nimbus]

You started with a reasonable question (later devolved into describing me as "ranting," regrettably) so I'll answer it.

Look at the title of this thread and the first post. This is nominally about how terrible it is that there are riots after police shootings of black people. This thread focuses primarily on police use of lethal force, but coded racist language has entered freely, with users at conflating BLM, "thugs," rioters, "destroying their own community," citing the Daily Caller, etc. Those are racist dog whistles. They point to black people being the cause of this problem (nominally, riots), rather than seeking to understand or explain. Focus on condemning riots is not a useful line of inquiry - only a select few anarchists etc don't condemn violence against people or property. "Lamenting" riots does little to explain why they happen or how they might be managed or prevented, just like few on the right wanted to understand why Colin Kaepernick was taking a knee. Citing a white nationalist outlet like the Daily Caller inflames this.

And Kaepernick peacefully taking a knee was roundly criticized by the so called “patriots” on the right. I don’t know if any form of protest would be acceptable to these people. For them police abuse and misconduct is not an issue, just like COVID is a left wing hoax.

 

[fakin' the funk]

Call it intolerant but I am sure you would be the 1st to call 911 if someone with a knife was knocking on your door.

I get that you think police exist (in part) to protect good guys from bad guys, and they should use their guns to do so. If you think police exist to solve violent crimes, buddy I have bad news for you.

Would you feel the same if your loved one was shot dead while holding a cellphone in their family member's backyard? What if police overreach their stated role of protection? That's what those protests (to be clear for the knuckleheads - not riots) are about.

Sacramento police shot man holding cellphone in his grandmother's yard

Sacramento police officers shot and killed a black man in his grandmother's backyard because they believed he was pointing a gun at them, police said.

www.cnn.com

 

[fakin' the funk]

And Kaepernick peacefully taking a knee was roundly criticized by the so called “patriots” on the right. I don’t know what form of protest would be acceptable to these people.

Correct - it's not about the validity of various types of protesting, to some. It's about limiting protest *of* certain things *by* certain people. That's why Laura Ingraham tells Lebron to "shut up and dribble" but no problem with Drew Brees saying he'd kneel.

 

[abolt18]

And Kaepernick peacefully taking a knee was roundly criticized by the so called “patriots” on the right. I don’t know if any form of protest would be acceptable to these people. For them police abuse and misconduct is not an issue, just like COVID is a left wing hoax.

Their own protest is the only form that's acceptable it would seem...

Beshear hanged in effigy as Second Amendment supporters rally at Capitol before Memorial Day

Memorial Day weekend had two rallies in Frankfort. Saturday's was all about protesting the coronavirus shutdown.

www.courier-journal.com

 

[doctalaughs]

kapernick can protest all he wants- free speech, I don’t think many people have an issue with that. But if 50% football fans (who pay his salary) disagree how he’s protesting, and his employers make a business decision to fire him, that’s totally fair. It was the protesting during his work-time that was distasteful. It’s not like he went marching with BLM on his own personal time.

 

[vector2]

A Multi-Level Bayesian Analysis of Racial Bias in Police Shootings at the County-Level in the United States, 2011–2014

A geographically-resolved, multi-level Bayesian model is used to analyze the data presented in the U.S. Police-Shooting Database (USPSD) in order to investigate the extent of racial bias in the shooting of American civilians by police officers in recent years. In contrast to previous work that...

journals.plos.org

 

[AMEHigh]

View attachment 321916

A Multi-Level Bayesian Analysis of Racial Bias in Police Shootings at the County-Level in the United States, 2011–2014

A geographically-resolved, multi-level Bayesian model is used to analyze the data presented in the U.S. Police-Shooting Database (USPSD) in order to investigate the extent of racial bias in the shooting of American civilians by police officers in recent years. In contrast to previous work that...

journals.plos.org

Yes thank you.
We all know if Tamir Rice were a young white girl instead of a young Black boy he would be alive today. He would be 18 this year. Same with John Crawford. Neither of them had a chance to respond to police, just murdered without warning by the police.

In particular, when it comes to Black boys they get perceived as dangerous and aggressive at earlier ages than other demographics. And that’s problematic when you are capable of drastically changing someone’s life or killing them. We cannot keep using the excuse that police aren’t paid well and they have a dangerous job as to why the system can’t change.