Any AF Doctors out there?

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kch207

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I'm very close to signing my HPSP contract for entering med school this August and I would like the opportunity to speak with someone who has gone through HPSP and is or was an Air Force doctor. I have a few things that I would like to ask someone with experience before signing. Thanks a lot.

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I'm finishing HPSP this year, but I haven't started residency yet. If you have any questions about the med school part, i'd be glad to try to answer q's for you.
 
kch207 said:
I'm very close to signing my HPSP contract for entering med school this August and I would like the opportunity to speak with someone who has gone through HPSP and is or was an Air Force doctor. I have a few things that I would like to ask someone with experience before signing. Thanks a lot.

Do not do it! Our clinic has experienced patient numbers increasing form 700 patients per doc to now over 3000 patients per doc. Administration is focused mainly on numbers (metrics). As a military doc we all knew that we became government property, in the USAF you will fing out that your liscence also becomes their property (and with reckless abandonthey use it).
 
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Your argument doesn't make any sense. If you have more doctors, you will have a better physician to patient ratio, not the other way around.
 
medicine1 said:
Your argument doesn't make any sense. If you have more doctors, you will have a better physician to patient ratio, not the other way around.
If I read his/her post correctly, it is stated that there has been an increase is the number of patients per doctor from 700 to 3000. Now, if you were in private practice think about how much more money you'd make be seeing 2700 more patients. Oh wait, we're on a salary that's subject to the whims of higher ups.... right....
 
All I ever see any more are people bashing the military's programs. If you don't like it, get out once you have served your obligation, and stop complaining.
 
medicine1 said:
All I ever see any more are people bashing the military's programs. If you don't like it, get out once you have served your obligation, and stop complaining.
I like your attitude. :)
 
medicine1 said:
All I ever see any more are people bashing the military's programs. If you don't like it, get out once you have served your obligation, and stop complaining.


I agree inpart; we have an obligation,we signed up,that I do not have a problem with....hey, we even agreed to put our life on the line if need be.

That is not my point......this is my point; the pateints (especially dependents but also retirees) should not be subject to the health care system we now have. If anyone thinks patient numbers can go up by 400-500% and not have QUALITY suffer, think again. The issue is not spending 12-18 hours every day at work and every weekend, it is doing those things and still not meeting patient demand, and seeing stuff (more acurrately,patients) fall through "the cracks" daily. Hey, don't believe me then; just speak to any clinic docs at Offutt, Maxwell, FAirchild, and probably anywhere.
 
medicine1 said:
Your argument doesn't make any sense. If you have more doctors, you will have a better physician to patient ratio, not the other way around.


sorry if I did not make this clear....here goes........There are more and more patients with no more docs,.....a doc in 1999 may have been taking care of 700 patients and that same docs position today may be taking care of 3500 patients. Add to the fact that in the USAF, they use PAs as docs as well, NOT as assistants, and they will be covering for thousands of patients. If you are going to be a doc in the USAF (primary care) just be prepared, it's more like an ER after a mass casualty that a FAmily Medicine clinic.
 
medicine1 said:
All I ever see any more are people bashing the military's programs. If you don't like it, get out once you have served your obligation, and stop complaining.

What's wrong with "bashing" a program that is not worthwhile?

If you bought a Yugo when it first came out (thinking that for $5,000 you get a new car is a great deal), and then you find out later that it is a lemon, would you not let people know that they should not buy a Yugo?

"If you don't like it, get out once you have served your obligation..." that is what the majority of people do. However, most also would let others know that you are buying a Yugo.

I'm surprised that new "buyers" don't appreciate the opinions of former buyers. This board is like Consumer Reports....."Bashers" don't get advertising fees, they do it on their own accord for "free".
 
USAFdoc said:
I agree inpart; we have an obligation,we signed up,that I do not have a problem with....hey, we even agreed to put our life on the line if need be.

That is not my point......this is my point; the pateints (especially dependents but also retirees) should not be subject to the health care system we now have. If anyone thinks patient numbers can go up by 400-500% and not have QUALITY suffer, think again. The issue is not spending 12-18 hours every day at work and every weekend, it is doing those things and still not meeting patient demand, and seeing stuff (more acurrately,patients) fall through "the cracks" daily. Hey, don't believe me then; just speak to any clinic docs at Offutt, Maxwell, FAirchild, and probably anywhere.


so, you are saying that we will work 12-18 hrs a day, every day including weekends for a total of 84-126 hours a week for 4 years? is this accurate?
 
llort said:
so, you are saying that we will work 12-18 hrs a day, every day including weekends for a total of 84-126 hours a week for 4 years? is this accurate?

minimum 12 hrs day; max 18 hr day (mon-fri); variable hours 90% of weekends, maximum hours in a month 400 hrs, usually about 275-300..this is accurate. This has been the "hours" for the last 2 years, this is higher than it was the previous 2 years (as more and more duties, loss of other providers and increased panel sizes have dictated). This does NOT include "on-call" hours.
 
The military needs more doctors. If we tell more and more people not to join, it hurts us more, not less. It is good to have more and more people applying for the HPSP scholarship. It provides much needed personnel, so that the work load is balanced; that way the work load isn't such a burden.
It is simply common sense.
 
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medicine1 said:
The military needs more doctors. If we tell more and more people not to join, it hurts us more, not less. It is good to have more and more people applying for the HPSP scholarship. It provides much needed personnel, so that the work load is balanced; that way the work load isn't such a burden.
It is simply common sense.

yes, common sense.....however, that type of sense is lacking in the current primary care administrative environment.
 
medicine1 said:
The military needs more doctors. If we tell more and more people not to join, it hurts us more, not less. It is good to have more and more people applying for the HPSP scholarship. It provides much needed personnel, so that the work load is balanced; that way the work load isn't such a burden.
It is simply common sense.
You and every doctor or medical commander I've ever met thinks we need more docs in the USAF, but apparently the Jedi Council at AFPC doesn't think so. For those who haven't read my posts on other threads, I have 11 years AD in the USAF, 3.85 GPA, 30P on the MCAT, and acceptance to a "low cost" state school. Yet, they turned me down for an HPSP scholarship, effectively ending my career. The USAF expects "Service NOT Self." The Air Force doesn't care about you, your career, or doesn't show any loyalty to you for years of high caliber service. I will be glad to get out and go Navy or Army since they are about to own 90% of military medicine anyway (see the BRAC recommendations).
 
BOHICA-FIGMO said:
You and every doctor or medical commander I've ever met thinks we need more docs in the USAF, but apparently the Jedi Council at AFPC doesn't think so. For those who haven't read my posts on other threads, I have 11 years AD in the USAF, 3.85 GPA, 30P on the MCAT, and acceptance to a "low cost" state school. Yet, they turned me down for an HPSP scholarship, effectively ending my career. The USAF expects "Service NOT Self." The Air Force doesn't care about you, your career, or doesn't show any loyalty to you for years of high caliber service. I will be glad to get out and go Navy or Army since they are about to own 90% of military medicine anyway (see the BRAC recommendations).

the afpc believes they can continue to minimally staff our clinics at a rate just barely enough to keep them open; and unfortunately, they are probably correct,because there will be just enough HPSPers that have no idea on what waits "on the other side" to keep the doors open. The afpc is not about taking care of patients or staff; its about money and metrics. This perversion of medicine continues because the clinic physician has absolutely no power in this system (except to separate at DOS.)
 
I have been watching this forum for the last six months, and this is the first time I decided to put in my two cents. I spent almost 5 years (early 1997 to late 2001) in the Army (enlisted airborne and air assault infantry soldier). During that time I never worked less than 80 hours in a week, and was deployed for at least 6 months during the year. There was a ton of B.S. to deal with on a daily bases, and the deployments were usually hell.

So the question is, "What is the greener side?" In five years I have never met an infantry soldier who enjoyed his job, or who looked forward to humping his body weight for 20-50 miles or more, or who enjoyed long deployments, or any other aspect of the infantry. Likewise, I have never met an infantry soldier who didn't despise the military or (more appropriately) those people who complained more about pushing a pencil (finance) or working in a building (some medical doctors) than the average private does laying in a snow bank for 12 hours at -50 degrees with no food or sleep (I was stationed in Ft. Wainwright, AK for most of my tour). Take heed of those who excessively complain about something.

The next question becomes, “Why do we have infantry soldiers that spend 20-30 years in this job?” I used to think these individuals were masochistic and crazy. Then I got out and reflected on my past experiences. While I regretted that I joined the infantry every day I was in the infantry, I don’t regret it anymore. Things always look bad from the inside. It isn’t until one leaves and spends a few years doing something else that they realize the value of where they were. I urge those of you who listen to those currently on active duty to use caution. They may (and probably will) change their position when they change their perspective.

What side is the greener side? I don’t know. Five years ago it certainly wasn’t the military.

2nd Lt. Richard Osness, Jr.
USUHS class of 2009
 
I'm not complaining about my salary now....I did when I was in the Navy.

I'm not complaining about where I live now...I did when I was in the Navy.

I'm not complaining about work now...because the more I work, the more I make.....I did when I was in the Navy.

I'm not complaining about a whole lot now except when a nurse comes into the doctor's lounge uninvited.....I did when I was in the Navy where O-6 nurses had private dining areas.
 
medicine1 said:
The military needs more doctors. If we tell more and more people not to join, it hurts us more, not less. It is good to have more and more people applying for the HPSP scholarship. It provides much needed personnel, so that the work load is balanced; that way the work load isn't such a burden.
It is simply common sense.

This post seems to offer little guidance to the progenitor of this thread and ignores his/her personal interest in the matter.

As an active duty resident at Big Willie, I can at least offer the perspective of someone who is currently in the AF and whose glutes are tattooed with Uncle Sam's name. I used to tell prospective HPSPers that the program was not to be entered lightly but was certainly the right choice for many. In the past year and particularly in light of the recent BRAC announcement, I'm no longer certain who it's right for. Realignment is a good idea on a global scale - there was too much redundancy among the three medical corps services anyway - but on a personal scale, it's a bear.

Military medicine is in such a state of tremendous flux that no one can really predict where it will be by the time someone entering med school now actually starts serving his commitment. However, if you think that you want to subspecialize or enter academic medicine, that uncertainty seems too great to risk entering the program. Additionally, morale among the faculty is very low for understandable reasons - volume is low, patients are being outsourced to Tricare, and there is no clear direction of where the ship is going. The professional sacrifices are starting to outweigh the personal rewards of service, debt minimization, and the carefree life of guaranteed salary without malpractice insurance. If things shape up in the next four years, you can always sign up for FAP to help with debt relief. Whatever your decision, kch207, hope it all works out.
 
hey chunkybeefstyle thanks for the input. i'm a third year AF hpsp'er. i've been reading this board for the last few months and am starting to feel big time regret for signing up with military. on top of all the other problems, the BRAC reccomendations came out and it looks like residency is going to suck ass if i go to big willie, which is where i wanted to go. but keesler is also on the chopping block and i've heard that wright-patterson already sucks. could you elaborate a little more on the general mood at wilford hall? are you in IM? if so, what are they saying about the future of the residency and all of the fellowships? even if things don't change for 3-5 years from now, i would think that morale and program quality will immediately begin to decline now that the whole medical center is essentially a "lame duck" waiting to be shut down.
 
USAFdoc said:
minimum 12 hrs day; max 18 hr day (mon-fri); variable hours 90% of weekends, maximum hours in a month 400 hrs, usually about 275-300..this is accurate. This has been the "hours" for the last 2 years, this is higher than it was the previous 2 years (as more and more duties, loss of other providers and increased panel sizes have dictated). This does NOT include "on-call" hours.

ya but isn't it the same as working for an HMO in the civilian world... working extreme hours is common for doctors on all fronts, atleast in the beginning as far as I know.
 
UCBShocker said:
ya but isn't it the same as working for an HMO in the civilian world... working extreme hours is common for doctors on all fronts, atleast in the beginning as far as I know.

yes,there are civilian docs that work 80-100+ hours per week. First of all, just because there may be overworked conditions at certain civilian jobs does not mean that should become the standard for the USAF. And that is not the standard...the ave primary care doc works 60 hrs/wk..secondly,as stated previously,my problem is not so much in working 80-120 hours per week (I have done that for 20 years now) it's doing that and still having a clinic that is behind and providing inadequate care. Currently we are 20% manned. Lastly; the complete lack of authority to fix broken aspects of the clinic. Its is one thing to know someone died and comletely another to stand there and watch them die......it is one thing to know the clinic is bad,it is another to live in that clinic with no power to fix what obviously needs fixing. Perhaps the key characteristic that has enabled the clinics to degrade to this point is the fact that they are non-physician controlled and the physicians have no say (in the civilian world, even a HMO one, the physican at least has the leverage that if things are unacceptable or unsafe,they can leave...that forces administration to keep a minimum standard of care and manning).
 
BOHICA-FIGMO said:
You and every doctor or medical commander I've ever met thinks we need more docs in the USAF, but apparently the Jedi Council at AFPC doesn't think so. For those who haven't read my posts on other threads, I have 11 years AD in the USAF, 3.85 GPA, 30P on the MCAT, and acceptance to a "low cost" state school. Yet, they turned me down for an HPSP scholarship, effectively ending my career. The USAF expects "Service NOT Self." The Air Force doesn't care about you, your career, or doesn't show any loyalty to you for years of high caliber service. I will be glad to get out and go Navy or Army since they are about to own 90% of military medicine anyway (see the BRAC recommendations).


Sorry to hear about the screw job that you got from the AF. I'm sure that the Army or Navy would love to have someone with your qualifications.
 
benjiboy said:
hey chunkybeefstyle thanks for the input. i'm a third year AF hpsp'er. i've been reading this board for the last few months and am starting to feel big time regret for signing up with military. on top of all the other problems, the BRAC reccomendations came out and it looks like residency is going to suck ass if i go to big willie, which is where i wanted to go. but keesler is also on the chopping block and i've heard that wright-patterson already sucks. could you elaborate a little more on the general mood at wilford hall? are you in IM? if so, what are they saying about the future of the residency and all of the fellowships? even if things don't change for 3-5 years from now, i would think that morale and program quality will immediately begin to decline now that the whole medical center is essentially a "lame duck" waiting to be shut down.

Sorry for the delay in response, Benji. Forgot to follow up my post for a few days.

First, once you're in the program at this point, you can only take a somewhat philosophical view of "taking things as they come" because worrying too much about your future will just give you an ulcer. You will want to make decisions that will most prepare you for any eventuality. So buff your CV/grades to make sure you are competitive for civilian programs. If you want to do a fellowship, keep working toward that goal but realize it may not come as quickly as you expected. Be flexible.

No, I'm not IM, but as yet, few residents really know what will happen to any of the programs, because the muckity-mucks above us haven't figured it out yet. Residencies in the Air Force are an endangered species as far as I can tell. The integrated forecast board comes out in June/July so we'll know soon how quickly slots start disappearing. I think your concerns are valid regarding the potential for a "lame duck" residency. As I understand, some AF staff will be moved to Brooke Army Medical Center (the army hospital here in San Antonio), essentially creating a multi-service hybrid, but I am not sure that there is a plan to move AF GME slots over there as well. Even if they merge residencies, I can't see the same number of resident slots in the combined program as are in the current separate programs - there's just not enough clinical volume, even after Wilford Hall closes its inpatient facilities and patients move to BAMC.

As far as I can tell, morale is at an all-time low. Not only are few of my staff physicians happy with their case-mix and patient loads, now they are working in an inpatient facility that will soon cease to exist. If you only have a four-year commitment, I would push hard to defer to a civilian residency. Military or not, as a general rule of thumb, you want to train in a residency program that is stable, moving forward, and filled with mostly happy people. If you have a longer commitment (like myself), the decision may be a little tougher. I am fortunate because (a) I am more than half-way through my residency and (b) my program is combined with a civilian program in town so that I am actually doing 80% of my training at a university or otherwise civilian setting, and my training is not suffering too much.

There are still many good aspects to training and working in the military - your colleagues are decent people with a strong sense of integrity, patients are almost universally appreciative of the work you do, and the pay is nice. Service to the country, as cliche as it may sound, is still a noble choice in my opinion, regardless of the aforementioned perks. It is just frustrating that the choice is coming with more strings than expected.

Disclaimer: I am one resident whose opinion is informed by his own professional goals, disappointment in the downward spiral of Air Force medicine, and constraints imposed by his payback time. You need to talk to other residents as much as possible, especially those in IM if that's your planned field, and get a broad opinion. I can't guarantee that my opinions reflect everyone else's, but they are fairly consistent among all of the residents in my program. If you have further questions, please feel free to contact me through my profile. Otherwise, good luck.
 
chunkybeefstyle said:
Sorry for the delay in response, Benji. Forgot to follow up my post for a few days.

First, once you're in the program at this point, you can only take a somewhat philosophical view of "taking things as they come" because worrying too much about your future will just give you an ulcer. You will want to make decisions that will most prepare you for any eventuality. So buff your CV/grades to make sure you are competitive for civilian programs. If you want to do a fellowship, keep working toward that goal but realize it may not come as quickly as you expected. Be flexible.

No, I'm not IM, but as yet, few residents really know what will happen to any of the programs, because the muckity-mucks above us haven't figured it out yet. Residencies in the Air Force are an endangered species as far as I can tell. The integrated forecast board comes out in June/July so we'll know soon how quickly slots start disappearing. I think your concerns are valid regarding the potential for a "lame duck" residency. As I understand, some AF staff will be moved to Brooke Army Medical Center (the army hospital here in San Antonio), essentially creating a multi-service hybrid, but I am not sure that there is a plan to move AF GME slots over there as well. Even if they merge residencies, I can't see the same number of resident slots in the combined program as are in the current separate programs - there's just not enough clinical volume, even after Wilford Hall closes its inpatient facilities and patients move to BAMC.

As far as I can tell, morale is at an all-time low. Not only are few of my staff physicians happy with their case-mix and patient loads, now they are working in an inpatient facility that will soon cease to exist. If you only have a four-year commitment, I would push hard to defer to a civilian residency. Military or not, as a general rule of thumb, you want to train in a residency program that is stable, moving forward, and filled with mostly happy people. If you have a longer commitment (like myself), the decision may be a little tougher. I am fortunate because (a) I am more than half-way through my residency and (b) my program is combined with a civilian program in town so that I am actually doing 80% of my training at a university or otherwise civilian setting, and my training is not suffering too much.

There are still many good aspects to training and working in the military - your colleagues are decent people with a strong sense of integrity, patients are almost universally appreciative of the work you do, and the pay is nice. Service to the country, as cliche as it may sound, is still a noble choice in my opinion, regardless of the aforementioned perks. It is just frustrating that the choice is coming with more strings than expected.

Disclaimer: I am one resident whose opinion is informed by his own professional goals, disappointment in the downward spiral of Air Force medicine, and constraints imposed by his payback time. You need to talk to other residents as much as possible, especially those in IM if that's your planned field, and get a broad opinion. I can't guarantee that my opinions reflect everyone else's, but they are fairly consistent among all of the residents in my program. If you have further questions, please feel free to contact me through my profile. Otherwise, good luck.


thanks
 
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