Any Gay, Liberal, Atheist Pre-Meds Out There?

[golftrippy]

EDIT: removed my post when I realized people were actually done talking about Christianity and I didn't want to start it up again...Phew!...carry on

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[QofQuimica]

I think Angelina Jolie is surrealistically gorgeous, but her taste in men is so bad that I can only shake my head in wonder at her lack of judgment and roll myself up in the fetal position at the thought of it. Ditto for Penelope Cruz. But not to worry, that still leaves me with Jane Seymour, Sandra Bullock, Angela Bassett, and Salma Hayek to admire. I wouldn't go gay for any of them, although I certainly appreciate them for the living works of art that they are. But I might change teams for Cindy Crawford. She's still as gorgeous as ever, and d*** smart too.

 

[squareDR]

And since I take the null position about a god's non-existence due to the lack of any evidence for it, I go about my life as an atheist quite happily, and I don't concern myself with wanting answers to questions that make no sense to ask. Now, I concede that if you could convince me that my agnosticism were incorrect, and that the existence of a god could be PROVEN one way or the other through natural means, that would be a discussion I'd find worth having. But since your belief is presumably based on faith and is not the result of natural-world proof, we're simply going round and round in circles here, to our mutual frustration and disgust.

Great post Q! I just wanted to add that to me, those atheists who are committed to fighting for human rights are not the same as the "Howard Roark" atheists- out for themselves with not a care for anyone. Our deism simply revolves around our fellow man, who in essence becomes an entity that is greater than us. After all, isn't that what God is?

 

[squareDR]

I think Angelina Jolie is surrealistically gorgeous, but her taste in men is so bad that I can only shake my head in wonder at her lack of judgment and roll myself up in the fetal position at the thought of it. Ditto for Penelope Cruz. But not to worry, that still leaves me with Jane Seymour, Sandra Bullock, Angela Bassett, and Salma Hayek to admire. I wouldn't go gay for any of them, although I certainly appreciate them for the living works of art that they are. But I might change teams for Cindy Crawford. She's still as gorgeous as ever, and d*** smart too.

Oh wait! The topic changed. Hey, I will take Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt together (as long as there are no mirrors involved so I don't cringe at the sight of me next to perfection).

 

[Schaden Freud]

I think Angelina Jolie is surrealistically gorgeous, but her taste in men is so bad that I can only shake my head in wonder at her lack of judgment and roll myself up in the fetal position at the thought of it. Ditto for Penelope Cruz. But not to worry, that still leaves me with Jane Seymour, Sandra Bullock, Angela Bassett, and Salma Hayek to admire. I wouldn't go gay for any of them, although I certainly appreciate them for the living works of art that they are. But I might change teams for Cindy Crawford. She's still as gorgeous as ever, and d*** smart too.

Not into Brad?

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Am I the only person who doesn't get the Angelina Jolie thing? Maybe Girl, Interrupted was such a horrible movie that I'm unable to see her charms. Jennifer Aniston is much more attractive, imo.

 

[noonday]

Not into Brad?

brad pitt....ewwwwww.

tom cruise...double ewwwww.

but then, my taste in men is not totally mainstream nor consistent in "type" so i'm surely not one to speak for anyone by just myself. i adore henry rollins (obviously), and joaquin phoenix (who also has a decent following), but i have an odd attraction to crispin glover, which is just plain strange.

other women...in addition to neko, have to agree with Q about angela bassett, also dig on tilda swinton, julianne moore, catherine keener... but i still think i'd only turn for neko.

 

[squareDR]

Am I the only person who doesn't get the Angelina Jolie thing? Maybe Girl, Interrupted was such a horrible movie that I'm unable to see her charms. Jennifer Aniston is much more attractive, imo.

Umm. Girl interrupted was not her most attractive look. Besides that, she is not beautiful like Halle Berry is beautiful but she oozes sex appeal and personally, I like that she stands out from every other actress in Hollywood.

 

[lilmissfickle]

Great post Q! I just wanted to add that to me, those atheists who committed to fighting for human rights are not the same as the "Howard Roark" atheists- out for themselves with not a care for anyone.

It amazes me how many religious people have trouble distinguishing sociopathy from atheism. I have actually had someone (an older gentleman, and an officer in the army) ask me, point blank, "if you don't believe in God, how do you know the difference between wrong and right and what keeps you from going around and murdering people?"

Needless to say, I was careful not to be alone with him in enclosed spaces after that! Perhaps it is naive of me, but I tend to assume that there is something more than the fear of eternal damnation that's keeping the the guy walking behind me from plunging his pocket knife into my back...

 

[Schaden Freud]

That may either be genuine stupidity or an ad hominem attack, implication being that you're hardly better than a murderer.

It amazes me how many religious people have trouble distinguishing sociopathy from atheism. I have actually had someone (an older gentleman, and an officer in the army) ask me, point blank, "if you don't believe in God, how do you know the difference between wrong and right and what keeps you from going around and murdering people?"

Needless to say, I was careful not to be alone with him in enclosed spaces after that! Perhaps it is naive of me, but I tend to assume that there is something more than the fear of eternal damnation that's keeping the the guy walking behind me from plunging his pocket knife into my back...

 

[lebam]

i have an odd attraction to crispin glover, which is just plain strange.

Hahaha, that's so rad! My boyfriend and I love him too. We saw him once in Los Angeles and it is the only time I've ever seen my boy star struck. That, and the time we saw Vincent Gallo at a guitar store...

 

[karirunner]

Any agnostic (no idea whether this "god" or "Jesus" person really exists/existed), liberals out there? I was raised Presbyterian, but my family (mom and dad are church elders) believe you have a free pass to heaven if you fulfill the requirements of 'goodness 'in your indigenous culture (despite being in North Dakota-the cultural barreness that is the Upper Midwest). Apropros the recent thread conversation, Angelina Jolie is HOTTTT!!!! and if I weren't completely, ridiculously heterosexual I woudl want to get with her.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

It amazes me how many religious people have trouble distinguishing sociopathy from atheism. I have actually had someone (an older gentleman, and an officer in the army) ask me, point blank, "if you don't believe in God, how do you know the difference between wrong and right and what keeps you from going around and murdering people?"

Needless to say, I was careful not to be alone with him in enclosed spaces after that! Perhaps it is naive of me, but I tend to assume that there is something more than the fear of eternal damnation that's keeping the the guy walking behind me from plunging his pocket knife into my back...

i guess you didn't hear about the 4 random stabbings on the NYC subway system this week??

 

[Gut Shot]

i guess you didn't hear about the 4 random stabbings on the NYC subway system this week??

Much more likely the result of "God told me to stab people" rather than "there is no God...time to stab people!"

When you get to your psych rotation you'll see what I mean.

 

[trustwomen]

Much more likely the result of "God told me to stab people" rather than "there is no God...time to stab people!"

When you get to your psych rotation you'll see what I mean.

I love the smooth creamy flavour of Havarti... but some things should not be fed.

 

[noonday]

I love the smooth creamy flavour of Havarti... but some things should not be fed.

but see, now that psycho doc posted after the declaration that "if you post after this then you're admitting to being gay" he's just outed himself!

let's welcome psycho doc into the fold...

 

[trustwomen]

BTW, I would TOTALLY do Angelina Jolie when she isn't in her anorexic phase...

Used to like Drew Barrymore, too, when she was still jailbait (15, not 6, fear not - and I was the same age so it's not as creepy as it sounds...) I loved the movie "Poison Ivy" in my teens.

Also love Michelle Rodriguez, I'm pissed that she won't be on Lost anymore.

Sigh. I miss sleeping with girls - fie this monogamy bullsh*t! But, as Doula pointed out, bi doesn't automatically mean slutty (well, in my case it did, for about 5 years... but not now).

p.s. noonday - did you get my PM re. NYC?

 

[JohnnyOU]

Am I the only person who doesn't get the Angelina Jolie thing? Maybe Girl, Interrupted was such a horrible movie that I'm unable to see her charms. Jennifer Aniston is much more attractive, imo.

Totally agreed

Jolie is WAY overrated, not to mention a selfish adulteress/homewrecker. (feel free to argue amongst yourselves about that)

 

[trustwomen]

Totally agreed

Jolie is WAY overrated, not to mention a selfish adulteress/homewrecker. (feel free to argue amongst yourselves about that)

OK, everyone has their taste, but you have to see her in Foxfire and/or Gia before discounting her. (Especially if you're a chick.)

And of all the adulterous Hollywood actors (are there any other kind? and don't say Mel Gibson 'cause that's incorrect), she does seem to actually care about something larger than herself. Props.

I don't buy the "homewrecker" thing, because if you have a good marriage, nobody can wreck it. Not even Angelina Jolie. (My BF has already given me a pass to sleep with her should the opportunity arise, so it wouldn't wreck our relationship - though I had to allow him a theoretical night with Christina Ricci in exchange).

 

[Psycho Doctor]

Much more likely the result of "God told me to stab people" rather than "there is no God...time to stab people!"

When you get to your psych rotation you'll see what I mean.

not the same but i did volunteer for a psychiatrist and crisis hot line for 4 years.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

but see, now that psycho doc posted after the declaration that "if you post after this then you're admitting to being gay" he's just outed himself!

let's welcome psycho doc into the fold...

i honestly never saw that post, or is this a joke?

 

[Psycho Doctor]

Well said, Q. I suppose I also consider myself to be a negative atheist.

Has anyone here read Sam Harris' book "The End of Faith"? I mention it because some of what has been posted here is also discussed in his book.

And to make this medically related, how do you think your atheism will affect the way you practice medicine? For instance, if your patient starts talking about the power of God in their life will you just nod and smile, or will you tell them you are an atheist? If they think God will heal them, as opposed to medicine, would you respond with your beliefs? I know there are ethical guidelines that cover some of this (such as certain groups refusing blood transfusions on the basis of religious faith), but I was curious what role your atheism might play in all of this.

along those lines, what would an atheist do if a patient either asked you to stay while he (or a family member or pastor) prays or asks you to pray for him?

 

[trustwomen]

i honestly never saw that post, or is this a joke?

No, it was there. Forget which page. (But don't worry, liberal atheists take people at their word on whether or not they are gay, they don't make assumptions nor will they try to change your natural sexual orientation - your straightitude is safe here.)

So, Psychodoc, if you had to do a male Hollywood star or get shot in the head, who would you want to do? (Jaye Davidson doesn't count, too easy).

 

[trustwomen]

along those lines, what would an atheist do if a patient either asked you to stay while he (or a family member or pastor) prays or asks you to pray for him?

I'd stay and/or pray with them. It would give them comfort and would be a compassionate thing to do, like giving a hug or bringing treats. I wouldn't lie about being atheist - if they asked, I would say that although I'm not a believer, God is important to them and they are important to me, so I'm happy to pray with them if they wish. I suppose if they asked me to pray on my own time, I might demur, because that's like somebody asking you to drop a penny in a fountain for them next time you're at the mall. Actually, scratch that, I'd probably drop the penny, meaning I'd probably say the prayer - I'm a soft touch in general. Doesn't mean I'd believe in the efficacy of either, though.

There's a common misconception that atheists have this huge chip on their shoulder about anything spiritual/religious. Not true at all.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

I'd stay and/or pray with them. It would give them comfort and would be a compassionate thing to do, like giving a hug or bringing treats. I wouldn't lie about being atheist - if they asked, I would say that although I'm not a believer, God is important to them and they are important to me, so I'm happy to pray with them if they wish. I suppose if they asked me to pray on my own time, I might demur, because that's like somebody asking you to drop a penny in a fountain for them next time you're at the mall. Actually, scratch that, I'd probably drop the penny, meaning I'd probably say the prayer - I'm a soft touch in general. Doesn't mean I'd believe in the efficacy of either, though.

There's a common misconception that atheists have this huge chip on their shoulder about anything spiritual/religious. Not true at all.

good response, thank you. I'm surprised someone who is an atheist would not find it difficult to pray out loud with the family or patient..?? Even Christians sometimes feel uncomfortable doing a public prayer.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

No, it was there. Forget which page. (But don't worry, liberal atheists take people at their word on whether or not they are gay, they don't make assumptions nor will they try to change your natural sexual orientation - your straightitude is safe here.)

So, Psychodoc, if you had to do a male Hollywood star or get shot in the head, who would you want to do? (Jaye Davidson doesn't count, too easy).

i'd get shot in the head

 

[trustwomen]

good response, thank you. I'm surprised someone who is an atheist would not find it difficult to pray out loud with the family or patient..?? Even Christians sometimes feel uncomfortable doing a public prayer.

Preacher's kid, remember? Praying out loud is not new to me.

Would you pray to Allah, or to Vishnu, if a patient asked you to? I would.

 

[trustwomen]

i'd get shot in the head

You can't be serious.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

Preacher's kid, remember? Praying out loud is not new to me.

Would you pray to Allah, or to Vishnu, if a patient asked you to? I would.

oh yea, i forgot. Actually I'd just generically pray (to God); sorry I could not pray specifically to Allah or Vishnu. As much as I love my patients, I can not violate my beliefs, especially when I feel it totally disregards everything my faith is about.

 

[OSUdoc08]

You can't be serious.

Second vote for shot in the head.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

You can't be serious.

Second vote for shot in the head.

see others feel the same, and yes I am serious.

 

[Doula-2-OB]

along those lines, what would an atheist do if a patient either asked you to stay while he (or a family member or pastor) prays or asks you to pray for him?

I have had this experience a couple of times. I had a client whose father was the town's Baptist Minister. Her husband read a prayer to her in labor, she chanted a verse during contractions, and at one point her parents came and laid hands on her (and included me, never asking my faith) and I cried when it was over because it was so beautiful.

Most recently I attended the VBAC of a LDS mom (5th baby) and on our way to the hospital for her induction she found out that her father had just suddenly died (she had just gotten off the phone with him, that is how suddenly he died - MI). When we arrived we had a LOT to process, obviously. Her doc also happened to be in her ward and once we were settled into a private room her husband and her doctor did a blessing over her. I had to leave the room, because I couldn't stop crying at the whole situation, and seeing this beautiful gift they were giving her. Man, that was freakin rough.

Anyway - I absolutely participate when invited, or when it is appropriate and I do it with my whole heart, knowing that it brings comfort to my client, to her family, and it is my job to help do that. I do get emotional because of my own spirituality (I'm not an athiest) and feeling humbled to be invited in.

Praying out loud- I have never done it in my life and I would pass the buck on that.

-- Angelina -- YUM, with or without Brad. LOL I'm working on a project right now for a Malawi maternity hospital to try to get them goods to ease the burden of the *nothing* that they're working with, and of course I think of Angelina's work all the time and try to figure out how I can get her to help me get this stuff shipped. LOL

 

[Doula-2-OB]

oh yea, i forgot. Actually I'd just generically pray (to God); sorry I could not pray specifically to Allah or Vishnu. As much as I love my patients, I can not violate my beliefs, especially when I feel it totally disregards everything my faith is about.

Yeah, I can understand that. My aunt won't even DISCUSS other religions with me because she feels it is a sin. To each their own, I guess.

Dang Christians.

 

[OSUdoc08]

see others feel the same, and yes I am serious.

You can't expect a bisexual to understand, since they don't find any type of sex disgusting.

 

[trustwomen]

Actually I'd just generically pray (to God); sorry I could not pray specifically to Allah or Vishnu. As much as I love my patients, I can not violate my beliefs, especially when I feel it totally disregards everything my faith is about.

I respect that you do not want to violate your beliefs. However, you realize that you therefore cannot take issue with some atheists who might refuse to violate their beliefs by praying at all. (It's not an issue for me personally, but even within atheists there are differences - like some Christians might pray to Allah, considering Allah's "root" deity is also Yahweh the sky-father).

 

[OSUdoc08]

I respect that you do not want to violate your beliefs. However, you realize that you therefore cannot take issue with some atheists who might refuse to violate their beliefs by praying at all. (It's not an issue for me personally, but even within atheists there are differences - like some Christians might pray to Allah, considering Allah's "root" deity is also Yahweh the sky-father).

Um, no. That's Muslims.

 

[trustwomen]

Um, no. That's Muslims.

I meant "might pray to Allah with a patient and their family if asked", in order to bring comfort to their patient, and justify to themselves that they are really, fundamentally, praying to the same god. I guess I was being overly optimistic there.

I suppose those without faith can be more flexible in their care than those with faith, from what I understand (I'm sure Christians wouldn't want their doctor praying to Allah or Vishnu or Artemis for them, so non-Christian patients would probably feel the same).

 

[noonday]

Preacher's kid, remember? Praying out loud is not new to me.

Would you pray to Allah, or to Vishnu, if a patient asked you to? I would.

see, i couldn't. not *to* god or jesus or allah or vishnu. if a patient asked me to be present during a prayer that they or their family member/minister/etc. is doing, i would gladly be supportive, and participate in respectful silence (while chanting metta in my head) with all positive and well meaning energy that i could muster. i could not, though, actually say a prayer to any form of god, because i'm agnostic and don't believe. when i left the catholic church, my parents made me go have a meeting with the priest before i was allowed to not get confirmed, and my reason for not getting confirmed is my reason for not actively participating in prayer -- i don't believe, and i feel like going through the active motions of belief when i don't have it is lying, as well as disrespectful to people who do believe. contrary to christian belief, agnostics can have very strong personal moral codes, and that's part of mine...

if asked to lead a prayer, i would speak an english translation of a buddhist metta chant: may you be free from danger. may you be contented and at peace. may you be free from physical and mental suffering. may your life unfold smoothly and with ease.

 

[trustwomen]

see, i couldn't. not *to* god or jesus or allah or vishnu. if a patient asked me to be present during a prayer that they or their family member/minister/etc. is doing, i would gladly be supportive, and participate in respectful silence (while chanting metta in my head) with all positive and well meaning energy that i could muster. i could not, though, actually say a prayer to any form of god, because i'm agnostic and don't believe. when i left the catholic church, my parents made me go have a meeting with the priest before i was allowed to not get confirmed, and my reason for not getting confirmed is my reason for not actively participating in prayer -- i don't believe, and i feel like going through the active motions of belief when i don't have it is lying, as well as disrespectful to people who do believe. contrary to christian belief, agnostics can have very strong personal moral codes, and that's part of mine...

if asked to lead a prayer, i would speak an english translation of a buddhist metta chant: may you be free from danger. may you be contented and at peace. may you be free from physical and mental suffering. may your life unfold smoothly and with ease.

I respect that perspective too (wonder if the Christians will?). I'd be happy to hear that kind of translation at my bedside... would be cooler still if it were actually chanted.

To me, praying would be like dropping a penny in a fountain - symbolic, functionally useless, but a small gesture to make them happy. I don't think it would be "lying" - it would be lying if I said "I'm sure God will make you all better" or said I was a believer, but otherwise I'd like to think that I'd get a "good samaritan" exception for the praying (ironic, no?).

 

[Doula-2-OB]

You can't expect a bisexual to understand, since they don't find any type of sex disgusting.

True.

 

[noonday]

I respect that perspective too (wonder if the Christians will?). I'd be happy to hear that kind of translation at my bedside... would be cooler still if it were actually chanted.

i could do the chant in Pali, but i'd be afraid of freaking the patient out...

To me, praying would be like dropping a penny in a fountain - symbolic, functionally useless, but a small gesture to make them happy. I don't think it would be "lying" - it would be lying if I said "I'm sure God will make you all better" or said I was a believer, but otherwise I'd like to think that I'd get a "good samaritan" exception for the praying (ironic, no?).

i can see that choice as valid, too, i just couldn't do it and feel ok personally. and on thinking more, most of why is what i posted above, but a smaller part is that i still hold so much resentment towards the church that i wouldn't want to bring that energy into it (which, 15 years after leaving the church, i still struggle with getting over...forever a recovering catholic), because it would be counter to what energy was desired...i don't think i could say a "prayer" or even "amen" without a sneer or bile building up, so better to think my own wish of wellness and maintain good energy.

btw, yes! i got the PM, and i'll reply in real email...TY.

 

[trustwomen]

You can't expect a bisexual to understand, since they don't find any type of sex disgusting.

True.

I dunno, there are some pretty disgusting fetishes out there (some that I get squicked at, just by thinking about them for half a second), but if it's do that or DIE?

I love life, and I could get over the experience; with therapy, if needed. (I'm the resilient sort.) The only thing I would not do "to save my life" is cause serious harm to another - that would change who I am and make me unworthy of life.

 

[trustwomen]

i can see that choice as valid, too, i just couldn't do it and feel ok personally. and on thinking more, most of why is what i posted above, but a smaller part is that i still hold so much resentment towards the church that i wouldn't want to bring that energy into it (which, 15 years after leaving the church, i still struggle with getting over...forever a recovering catholic), because it would be counter to what energy was desired...i don't think i could say a "prayer" or even "amen" without a sneer or bile building up, so better to think my own wish of wellness and maintain good energy.

Totally understandable and equally based in compassion. You'll be a kind doctor, noonday - and those are the best sort.

 

[trustwomen]

How about a lesbian, Christian, pro-life centrist (former republican). Did I mention I was black?

You guessed it -no one likes me either

Now I must admit I almost feel sorry for gay pro-lifers; "almost" because it is a make-yer-bed situation... the pro-life part, that is.

You shoulda seen PLAGAL at the last March for Life in D.C.! I was there counter-marching with my pro-choice group and PLAGAL, aka Pro-life Alliance of Gays and Lesbians, had: One small little rainbow flag waving bravely in the middle of all those gross fundie signs - and the hate stares they were getting from their fellow life-marchers, oh my!!! (In contrast, at the March for Women's Lives in 2005, rainbow flags were met with smiles and the occasional spontaneous kiss.)

Encore, maybe you'll meet some nice lefty christian girl who can show you the error of your ways. Some of the kindest, gay-friendliest, most open-minded and open-hearted people I know are Christians - they're just not proselytizers. (Disclosure: most of the "k, g-f, o-m and o-p" folks I know are atheist/agnostic, actually... but some are christians!)

 

[OSUdoc08]

I meant "might pray to Allah with a patient and their family if asked", in order to bring comfort to their patient, and justify to themselves that they are really, fundamentally, praying to the same god. I guess I was being overly optimistic there.

I suppose those without faith can be more flexible in their care than those with faith, from what I understand (I'm sure Christians wouldn't want their doctor praying to Allah or Vishnu or Artemis for them, so non-Christian patients would probably feel the same).

I'm not going to pray to Allah. I don't care what a patient wants.

 

[trustwomen]

I'm not going to pray to Allah. I don't care what a patient wants.

That's fine, as long as you then respect an atheist who says "I'm not going to pray. I don't care what a patient wants." (And don't expect your doctor, who may not be Christian, to pray with/for you.) Also, I would recommend not asking your patients if they want to pray with you, unless you see a cross around their neck - just to be safe.

 

[OSUdoc08]

That's fine, as long as you then respect an atheist who says "I'm not going to pray. I don't care what a patient wants." (And don't expect your doctor, who may not be Christian, to pray with/for you.) Also, I would recommend not asking your patients if they want to pray with you, unless you see a cross around their neck - just to be safe.

I would never expect a doctor to pray with me.

Physicians always have the right to refuse.

 

[noonday]

That's fine, as long as you then respect an atheist that says "I'm not going to pray. I don't care what the patient wants." (And don't expect your doctor, who may not be Christian, to pray with/for you.) Also, I would recommend not asking your patients if they want to pray with you, unless you see a cross around their neck - just to be safe.

hey! OSUdoc's out of the closet now, too!

i guess i'd mistakenly hoped that the one post would ward them off...but clearly not. i wish they'd go away. maybe i'll go find the white male christian thread and start shooting them down and raining on their parade on their thread. nah...even as someone with non-faith based morals, i know that two wrongs don't make a right.

and i'd even say don't pray with/for a patient unless they ask, even if they wear a cross or the like. i still wear a saint medal that i was given because it means something to me personally, but not in terms of actually believeing that saint barbara really watches over me...

 

[rowdyrock]

i'd get shot in the head

You're not funny, you make me sick. I have no doubts that if a heaven and hell exist, judgemental people like you will go straight to the latter for not being strong enough to have your own thoughts and jumping on the "hate" bandwagon.
Perhaps you should seek a different profession. We need more compassionate doctors, no more pompous a$$holes.

 

[Gut Shot]

i'd get shot in the head

Prude.