This post is for DO residents and physicians. I'm currently going through a situation of hesitance and bewilderment. I have received acceptance to a DO school in Southern California (COMP). I did a masters program in Florida and did fairly well and I received some interviews from MD schools but did not get accepted. I'm wondering if I should take another year off or if I should pursue a DO degree. My contemplation will be better resolved if I knew that DO physicians don't really have a hard time during practice and are presented with nearly the same opportunities as their MD counterparts who work just as hard. Advice would be nice. Thank you
Any regrets for having a DO
- Thread starter MIAfoEVA
- Start date
Go for it. MD=DO in the real world.
Not "nearly" the same opportunities but the same opportunities. What specialty are you thinking of right now? You can PM me.
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2007
- Messages
- 45
- Reaction score
- 1
I chose to go DO (in fact turned down an MD school / acceptance), and I have no regrets. There are PLENTY of opportunities with having your medical degree - no matter what type it is. I think whether one chooses DO or MD, the future is really what they make of it. There are plenty of MD's I know that didn't make derm, so the MD isn't a gaurantee by any means. If you really want to be a doctor, I would go to California. You will probably be pleasantly surprised.
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2009
- Messages
- 1,980
- Reaction score
- 2,568
The only real difference between having an MD and having a DO is that as a DO you'll spend probably an aggregate estimate of about 350 hours over the course of your life explaining what a DO is and why you chose it. If you were an MD you could use that time to watch TV, go skydiving, read a book, or some other useful activity.
There are good DOs and there are bad DOs. There are good MDs and there are bad MDs. The letters don't make that determination.
There are good DOs and there are bad DOs. There are good MDs and there are bad MDs. The letters don't make that determination.
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2008
- Messages
- 572
- Reaction score
- 4
While this may be true, it's a little misleading.
1) People's definition of "PLENTY" varies considerably. Not everyone has access to every program in every specialty, and the extent to which that feels restrictive to a student is highly person dependent.
2) Just because "plenty of MD's didn't make derm" doesn't mean that it's equally hard as a DO to make derm, it just means that it'll be hard either way, but keep in mind probably much harder as a DO. I've noticed this frequently in response to DO students querying "DO chances in <competitive specialty>?"...some guy'll respond - hey, it's hard to match even if you're an MD, as if to say gosh it's a crap shoot either way so what's the difference. In reality what it means is that yeah, it's hard even if you're an MD, do you really want to volunteer for another disadvantage by going DO? Personally I think MD=DO and there's no difference, but the numbers don't lie and for some specialties, there's a distinct difference in program preference. People considering this decision should keep that in mind, take anecdotal stories about "oh I know a guy who was DO & bottom half of his class and 220 on Step I matched Stanford rad onc" (or any permutation thereof) with a grain of salt, and make the most informed decision they can.
3) I never understood the argument that "it's hard even for an MD, so there's no guarantees either way". I think that's a dangerous oversimplification. No one's looking for guarantees, we're looking to maximize our chances at getting what we want most. I think making a decision to put yourself at a decided disadvantage for a lot of competitive programs and specialties based on an obtuse assessment that since there are no guarantees, might as well call the ol' third down pooch kick and gloss over the individual factors that go into being considered a competitive applicant is foolhardy.
- Joined
- May 15, 2008
- Messages
- 5,089
- Reaction score
- 55
I'm not sure that it's in fact harder to become a derm as a DO vs. as an allopathic medical grad. It would be MUCH harder to get into an allopathic derm program, and perhaps impossible. However, DO's have their own derm programs. I don't know what the match rate for a DO student into a DO derm residency would be...it might be less, the same or better than the match rate of an MD grad into a MD derm residency.
If the OP is asking whether it will be harder to get a given allopathic residency spot than if he/she attended an MD school, then I'd say the answer is yes. However, DO's have their own own residency programs, including in specialties of surgery, etc. I am not personally familiar with these, or how hard it is for a given DO student to get a spot in a DO program in something like radiology or urology or derm (specialties that are very competitive to get in the MD residency match). A DO trying to get an allopathic residency in something like internal medicine, family practice or pediatrics will not in general have a hard time, but some allopathic programs will not take you. On the flip side, NO osteopathic residencies will take any MD students, so you have those all to yourself.
If the OP is asking whether patients and other doctors are going to discriminate against him/her in practice by virtue of being a DO, I'd say the answer is no the great majority of the time. Only docs who are jerkoffs would be likely to care what your degree is, especially in the future (as it tends to be more the older MD docs who care/discriminate either). They will care whether you act nice, work hard, and appear to be competent. Ditto for patients, plus most patients are clueless about medical training and don't know what a "medical doctor" is either. One I talked to recently thought that "medical doctor" means that the doc is a primary care doctor (rather than a surgeon, radiologist, etc.).
If you were able to get several MD interviews, that suggests you'd have a shot as a reapplicant to MD programs, but you have to think about how strong a shot you'd have. Also, if you are a California resident, those state schools are notoriously hard to get into, so you might be taking a big risk by giving up a guaranteed admission at the DO school. I think it's important whether you liked the DO school when you interviewed, and also if you can find out if the graduates from there are able to go on and match well, and do the things you think you might be interested in, career-wise. I wouldn't give up the DO admission just because you fear some nebulous snobbishness by colleagues at a future date, b/c I don't think it's going to affect you much.
If the OP is asking whether it will be harder to get a given allopathic residency spot than if he/she attended an MD school, then I'd say the answer is yes. However, DO's have their own own residency programs, including in specialties of surgery, etc. I am not personally familiar with these, or how hard it is for a given DO student to get a spot in a DO program in something like radiology or urology or derm (specialties that are very competitive to get in the MD residency match). A DO trying to get an allopathic residency in something like internal medicine, family practice or pediatrics will not in general have a hard time, but some allopathic programs will not take you. On the flip side, NO osteopathic residencies will take any MD students, so you have those all to yourself.
If the OP is asking whether patients and other doctors are going to discriminate against him/her in practice by virtue of being a DO, I'd say the answer is no the great majority of the time. Only docs who are jerkoffs would be likely to care what your degree is, especially in the future (as it tends to be more the older MD docs who care/discriminate either). They will care whether you act nice, work hard, and appear to be competent. Ditto for patients, plus most patients are clueless about medical training and don't know what a "medical doctor" is either. One I talked to recently thought that "medical doctor" means that the doc is a primary care doctor (rather than a surgeon, radiologist, etc.).
If you were able to get several MD interviews, that suggests you'd have a shot as a reapplicant to MD programs, but you have to think about how strong a shot you'd have. Also, if you are a California resident, those state schools are notoriously hard to get into, so you might be taking a big risk by giving up a guaranteed admission at the DO school. I think it's important whether you liked the DO school when you interviewed, and also if you can find out if the graduates from there are able to go on and match well, and do the things you think you might be interested in, career-wise. I wouldn't give up the DO admission just because you fear some nebulous snobbishness by colleagues at a future date, b/c I don't think it's going to affect you much.
- Joined
- May 8, 2009
- Messages
- 5
- Reaction score
- 0
As a DO in residency, I had the same choice. I don't regret it. I'm in an allopathic anesthesia program of my choice. Getting your foot in is 90% of the battle, and you did it. The only problem you may not "like" is the program geographic location. You may not match to the "best" programs in 4 years, but your options are for as hard as your work and network abilities. If you start in the fall, good luck; I'd not hesitate.
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2000
- Messages
- 119
- Reaction score
- 0
I'm a DO Emergency Medicine Physician who has just completed a DO Emergency Medicine Residency this past July and graduated from COMP. I've been practicing in Southern CA since I graduated. I had gotten offered a job in Hawaii but turned it down to be closer to parents. So I really haven't had any regrets for getting my DO, I make the same amount of money as my counterparts and have had the same job opportunities for the most part.
The MD would make a difference if you wanted to get into more competitive specialties (ortho, derm, neurosurgery, MD surgery, specialized surgery, etc.). And of course there's a lifelong commitment to telling people what a DO is or where your medical school is. But ultimately, it's more an ego thing. If you really want to be a doctor, you're going to do whatever it takes... whether it is going US MD or DO, or going the foreign medical school route.
The MD would make a difference if you wanted to get into more competitive specialties (ortho, derm, neurosurgery, MD surgery, specialized surgery, etc.). And of course there's a lifelong commitment to telling people what a DO is or where your medical school is. But ultimately, it's more an ego thing. If you really want to be a doctor, you're going to do whatever it takes... whether it is going US MD or DO, or going the foreign medical school route.
- Joined
- May 15, 2008
- Messages
- 5,089
- Reaction score
- 55
Great post. My experience is that doctors to work in general practice, as hospitalists and in ER's are definitely in demand in a lot of places in the country...probably most places except for large cities like Chicago, New York, etc. Most graduating residents (DO or MD) in these types of fields are not going to have a hard time getting or keeping a job. I am a board certified internist, and I get mail and sometimes phone calls from recruiters several times/week...this started about 3rd year of residency.
I also find it interesting how people always talk about having to "explain the degree" if one becomes a DO. I'm not a DO, but I'm originally from the Midwest and I honestly think that most patients out there would not ask what a DO is...I think they are used to seeing DO's. I guess it is different in other parts of the country, b/c people keep saying that. A few MD's from the more snooty U. med centers might think they are better than a DO in some way, but those guys think they are better than everyone
And I don't think anyone is going to pay you less because you are a DO...not sure how that rumor got started. Pay is more of a function of the type of job, where it is/geography, and probably how much you can bill (if you are in private practice and/or being paid on some sort of production model).
Many people fail to realize that there's actually less competition to get into competitive fields/specialties if one is willing to complete an AOA/osteopathic residency. Many will say "oh, that class didn't match anyone into a competitive allopathic residency." Well, more times than not, those that want to enter a highly competitive residency simply enter the AOA match since they know their chances are better than even the top 25% of allopathic students in the ACGME match.
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2008
- Messages
- 572
- Reaction score
- 4
Well I'm not sure this is true - it may be, it may not be, it's anyone's guess (unless you've got something to back this up).
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2008
- Messages
- 33
- Reaction score
- 0
From a different perspective, I'm a weak DO student. I was in the bottom half of my class with weak board despite excellent clinical grades and letters. If I was a U.S. M.D. student with the same profile, I would still have many doors open to me but being a weak DO student, I was treated like an FMG or worse by many programs. Unless you are a strong DO student, you won't really be treated like an equal and the whole "U.S. student" goes out the door and you are treated just like any foreign grad.
I do agree with the others that if you are a strong DO student (top half of class with above average board scores and 200's on USMLEs) you are treated more or less like an equal. However, I can see the good ole boy system take effect with the allopathic students who are weak.
The other thing I noticed was research opportunities. Between my first and second year, I applied for about 15 research opportunities and was denied at each one of them. My friends who are U.S. allopathic students were easily getting those opportunities during the summer.
If you can wait and get into a U.S. Allopathic school, I would do so because there are hidden benefits. As a DO student, I was never treated differently on the wards or rotations. However, in terms of applying, the bias is there.
I do agree with the others that if you are a strong DO student (top half of class with above average board scores and 200's on USMLEs) you are treated more or less like an equal. However, I can see the good ole boy system take effect with the allopathic students who are weak.
The other thing I noticed was research opportunities. Between my first and second year, I applied for about 15 research opportunities and was denied at each one of them. My friends who are U.S. allopathic students were easily getting those opportunities during the summer.
If you can wait and get into a U.S. Allopathic school, I would do so because there are hidden benefits. As a DO student, I was never treated differently on the wards or rotations. However, in terms of applying, the bias is there.
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2008
- Messages
- 33
- Reaction score
- 0
That's true in regards to surgery subspecialties but that not true for all competitive fellowships especially for IM subspecialties like cardiology, GI, and critical care. With regard to AOA internal medicine programs with in-house fellowships, these programs usually only take 1 fellow for the upcoming year(meaning only one new fellow out of all applicants not one fellow from the medicine program). However, an ACGME IM program with in-house fellowship programs will usually take anywhere from 3-8 fellows per year with usually 1-3 reserved from in-house. That's why those AOA IM programs never fill and why DO student elect to do the allopathic route if they are interested in IM subspecialties otherwise the competition is brutal
Last edited:
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2002
- Messages
- 7,629
- Reaction score
- 381
I read in your previous posts that you failed a class, failed COMLEX II CK and PE, and took five years to graduate. Correct me if I'm wrong. The good 'ol MD network wouldn't save a comparable MD candidate regardless.
- Joined
- Sep 21, 2008
- Messages
- 125
- Reaction score
- 2
One of my friends is a PGY1 in an osteopathic surgery program. She is very unhappy about going the D.O. route because she finds her passion is plastic surgery- evidently there are very few osteopathic plastics fellowships, and allopathic ones are not DO-friendly. I would say she is the only person who has ever expressed regrets about osteopathy, however.
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2008
- Messages
- 572
- Reaction score
- 4
That you know of.
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2009
- Messages
- 1,980
- Reaction score
- 2,568
JeffLebowski said:
Yea. That's true. There are plenty of people who regret going DO.
But a lot of times the people who regret being a DO are those who didn't get into the residency they wanted. And they blame their degree for their failings. Justifiably? Not often. It's more often due to a personal shortcoming (poor grades, poor exam scores, irritating personality, offensive odor, unibrow, etc) but the DO degree is an easy thing to shift the blame to.
By the time you get the residency you want (or are content with) most people stop caring if they're a DO or MD because it really stops mattering.
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2008
- Messages
- 572
- Reaction score
- 4
Agreed. But the reality is that there is a distinct difference in how each degree is perceived (for SOME specialties and for SOME programs), irrespective of other factors, and that's what this thread is about. I think it would be helpful for DO's applying for competitive specialties or competitive programs to reflect on whether they feel it put them at a disadvantage in any way. Although I do agree that in general, the type of person to have "regrets" is the type of person to make excuses and shift blame, perhaps unduly. For example, the same student who has "regrets" about going DO because he didn't get an ortho spot may well not have gotten that spot if he were MD (and would have blamed it on some other factor). Personally, I agree with you that DO = MD and this thread is tired and has been done a million times in a million different ways.
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2005
- Messages
- 735
- Reaction score
- 6
Outstanding!- Joined
- Mar 21, 2003
- Messages
- 367
- Reaction score
- 0
Like others have mentioned, it all depends on what your goals are. Don't expect to have an easy time getting into competitive allopathic specialties. I have first hand experience in this regard. In general, while it may be easier to get DO residencies in these competitive specialties, they're in weird locations and I've heard many of them don't give you the best training...
As far as having a DO behind my name, I could care less - the letters is more of a pre-med debate, it doesn't matter in the real world. But do I wish I had gone to an MD school? Definitely, but only because I had some doors close for me given my specialty choice.
As far as having a DO behind my name, I could care less - the letters is more of a pre-med debate, it doesn't matter in the real world. But do I wish I had gone to an MD school? Definitely, but only because I had some doors close for me given my specialty choice.
