anyone else have trouble shadowing?

[surfer120]

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I called maybe twenty offices, either the doctor isnt in or the doctor is busy can i take your number and name down? sure, never got a call back from any place, only got one doctor to say yes for one day of shadowing. I called back all the places that said they would call me, still nothing getting various excuses. Does anyone else have this same trouble in finding willing optometrists?

 

[optsuker]

Go in person!

Harder to say no face to face and we want to see that you've put some effort into it as well. Your own personal doctor is always your best bet.

I personally don't like to feel like I have to entertain someone for a whole day, so I have shadowers alternate spending time with me and with my staff observing the whole office. Those in their last year of undergrad get the whole day and I take them out to lunch. Younger students that are just considering it as a possible career get 2 hours.


A lot of docs don't like shadowing for multiple reasons:

• The whole HIPAA privacy thing makes patients less willing to have someone else in the room. Volunteer to step out on request.
• They have a routine & it makes them uncomfortable to have someone hovering in the corner. Come prepared and ask a few questions.
• Lack of commitment. They don't want to waste time with someone who's considering 5 different professions. Tell them you're definitely applying & what schools you're considering.
• They feel like they're being used so you can check a box on your application. Treat them like a mentor and asking advice will get you a long way, especially if you're going to ask for a reference letter later.

 

[Jason K]

I called maybe twenty offices, either the doctor isnt in or the doctor is busy can i take your number and name down? sure, never got a call back from any place, only got one doctor to say yes for one day of shadowing. I called back all the places that said they would call me, still nothing getting various excuses. Does anyone else have this same trouble in finding willing optometrists?

surfer120, another poster had a similar post and this was the response I gave him.

If you're contacting private practice ODs, you probably won't have much luck. The market is very saturated with ODs across most of the US and the last thing most private practice optometrists want to do is bring another one into their town. Sorry, but it's true. You might have better luck going after hospitals or community health clinics. VA hospitals are actually required to allow people to observe if they request since they are taxpayer funded, although you will have to go through a volunteer hiring process. VAs are good places to observe, though. Just my thoughts.

Dr K

 

[thecgrblue]

Whatever man. I had ZERO problem shadowing private practice doctors.

 

[shannon804]

Go in person!

Harder to say no face to face and we want to see that you've put some effort into it as well. Your own personal doctor is always your best bet.

I personally don't like to feel like I have to entertain someone for a whole day, so I have shadowers alternate spending time with me and with my staff observing the whole office. Those in their last year of undergrad get the whole day and I take them out to lunch. Younger students that are just considering it as a possible career get 2 hours.



A lot of docs don't like shadowing for multiple reasons:

• The whole HIPAA privacy thing makes patients less willing to have someone else in the room. Volunteer to step out on request.
• They have a routine & it makes them uncomfortable to have someone hovering in the corner. Come prepared and ask a few questions.
• Lack of commitment. They don't want to waste time with someone who's considering 5 different professions. Tell them you're definitely applying & what schools you're considering.
• They feel like they're being used so you can check a box on your application. Treat them like a mentor and asking advice will get you a long way, especially if you're going to ask for a reference letter later.

I'm applying for admission this year, so I can't speak from the perspective of an OD, but this advice seems right on the mark from what I've experienced. I didn't have much trouble finding ODs willing to let me shadow (MUCH easier than finding MDs to shadow when I was pre-med), but I did have to call around. Have you tried calling a local Four Eyes, Visionworks, etc.? Also, if there is an opt school in your area, or a big hospital with a good opthamology department, they would probably be more used to students shadowing them. Above all, continue to be persistent! Good luck!

 

[netmag]

I agree with just going in and asking in person. A friend of mine did this and had no problems racking up several shadows over the course of 2 or 3 days. Even the two that were too busy to take on shadows gave her one on one interviews. Some people may not like being asked out of the blue but from your standpoint it is the quickest and best way to get it setup. As long as you're courteous and nice when you ask, no one will mind and it will be much more effective than just using the phone. She did call to see when the OD would be around and free first, but then she just went in there around that time and waited.

Also, while there seems to be a higher percentage of ODs on this forum that are bitter, that doesn't seem to be the case out in the real world. If you do happen to run into a bitter one (i.e. one who is trying a bit too hard to discourage you before even giving you a chance to see things and decide on your own) or if you run into one who legitimately is just too busy to talk to you, then just thank them for their time, let them know you plan to do more research, and then move on to another OD.

 

[Jason K]

Also, while there seems to be a higher percentage of ODs on this forum that are bitter, that doesn't seem to be the case out in the real world.

Have you considered that real opinions are much less likely to come out in person? In one of my former positions, I was routinely approached by potential applicants with questions about the profession. For many reasons, I was hesitant to tell them how I truly felt and what I believed to be true.

Also, I wouldn't shadow a couple of docs with a booming practice started in '82 and think that because they're cleaning up, you'll be able to do the same. It's so easy to look at established successful practices and think "Wow, this optometry thing is great!" Those days are over - sorry. Go find a newer doc who started cold in 2006 and see how he or she is doing. If they're doing well, I'd take notes - and a lot of them.

If you're going to shadow, do it in several different modes, not just private practice. Everyone seems to be focusing on private ODs for shadowing. Why? This is probably the least likely practice mode for new grads. It could be because of a lack of positions available in your area or it could be because you simply can't make it work on what they're offering as a base salary. Thirdly, it could be that no one in their right mind would even think about buying or opening cold right out of school even if they could get the financing together. In any case, understand that the vast majority of new grads right now are not setting foot in a private practice setting, at least for the 5 programs that I am in touch with and have good data about. If there are any OD programs that are channeling most of their new grads into private practice positions, I'd love to hear about them. As many others on this forum have said before, If you're not ok with practicing in commercial/retail optometry, I'd think twice before applying to an OD program.

One-track, unfounded negativity will get you nowhere in life, but dismissing what many people are warning you about because you'd prefer to focus on the positive can really bite you in the @ss too.

 

[surfer120]

Go in person!

Harder to say no face to face and we want to see that you've put some effort into it as well. Your own personal doctor is always your best bet.

I personally don't like to feel like I have to entertain someone for a whole day, so I have shadowers alternate spending time with me and with my staff observing the whole office. Those in their last year of undergrad get the whole day and I take them out to lunch. Younger students that are just considering it as a possible career get 2 hours.



A lot of docs don't like shadowing for multiple reasons:

• The whole HIPAA privacy thing makes patients less willing to have someone else in the room. Volunteer to step out on request.
• They have a routine & it makes them uncomfortable to have someone hovering in the corner. Come prepared and ask a few questions.
• Lack of commitment. They don't want to waste time with someone who's considering 5 different professions. Tell them you're definitely applying & what schools you're considering.
• They feel like they're being used so you can check a box on your application. Treat them like a mentor and asking advice will get you a long way, especially if you're going to ask for a reference letter later.

yea i think im just going to start showing up at offices and asking nicely, this phone thing isnt working out to well. For the two places i shadowed so far i always asked if he wanted me out of the room, i had lots of questions ready and i am 95% sure i am going to optometry school, i express that to them they dont really think im shopping around. My main problem is i was never ever given the doctor on the phone, they said he was busy/out/etc. so i was never able to speak to him i just spoke to receptionist and stated that i wanted to shadow they all took down my number but never called, i did follow ups and got various excuses as well. Jason, i am trying to shadow both private and commercial settings and anything inbetween.

 

[BlackHawk77]

Go in person!

Harder to say no face to face and we want to see that you've put some effort into it as well. Your own personal doctor is always your best bet.

I personally don't like to feel like I have to entertain someone for a whole day, so I have shadowers alternate spending time with me and with my staff observing the whole office. Those in their last year of undergrad get the whole day and I take them out to lunch. Younger students that are just considering it as a possible career get 2 hours.


A lot of docs don't like shadowing for multiple reasons:

• The whole HIPAA privacy thing makes patients less willing to have someone else in the room. Volunteer to step out on request.
• They have a routine & it makes them uncomfortable to have someone hovering in the corner. Come prepared and ask a few questions.
• Lack of commitment. They don't want to waste time with someone who's considering 5 different professions. Tell them you're definitely applying & what schools you're considering.
• They feel like they're being used so you can check a box on your application. Treat them like a mentor and asking advice will get you a long way, especially if you're going to ask for a reference letter later.

Yes, visit them to show your sincerity.

 

[Visualizer]

yea i think im just going to start showing up at offices and asking nicely, this phone thing isnt working out to well. For the two places i shadowed so far i always asked if he wanted me out of the room, i had lots of questions ready and i am 95% sure i am going to optometry school, i express that to them they dont really think im shopping around. My main problem is i was never ever given the doctor on the phone, they said he was busy/out/etc. so i was never able to speak to him i just spoke to receptionist and stated that i wanted to shadow they all took down my number but never called, i did follow ups and got various excuses as well. Jason, i am trying to shadow both private and commercial settings and anything inbetween.

I used to work as a tech in an office doing front desk here and there. We were never allowed to connect the patient to the doctor on the phone directly. We would take down name and number, but it's very rare that the doctor would personally call you back. There are various reasons for it, but mainly it's that it could be very time consuming.
Going in person is a lot better. Good luck!

 

[surfer120]

i got a call back actually today, i was so shocked that a doctor actually called me back, 1 for 20 , not bad... but from now on going in person, thamks everyone

 

[netmag]

Have you considered that real opinions are much less likely to come out in person? In one of my former positions, I was routinely approached by potential applicants with questions about the profession. For many reasons, I was hesitant to tell them how I truly felt and what I believed to be true.

Also, I wouldn't shadow a couple of docs with a booming practice started in '82 and think that because they're cleaning up, you'll be able to do the same. It's so easy to look at established successful practices and think "Wow, this optometry thing is great!" Those days are over - sorry. Go find a newer doc who started cold in 2006 and see how he or she is doing. If they're doing well, I'd take notes - and a lot of them.

If you're going to shadow, do it in several different modes, not just private practice. Everyone seems to be focusing on private ODs for shadowing. Why? This is probably the least likely practice mode for new grads. It could be because of a lack of positions available in your area or it could be because you simply can't make it work on what they're offering as a base salary. Thirdly, it could be that no one in their right mind would even think about buying or opening cold right out of school even if they could get the financing together. In any case, understand that the vast majority of new grads right now are not setting foot in a private practice setting, at least for the 5 programs that I am in touch with and have good data about. If there are any OD programs that are channeling most of their new grads into private practice positions, I'd love to hear about them. As many others on this forum have said before, If you're not ok with practicing in commercial/retail optometry, I'd think twice before applying to an OD program.

One-track, unfounded negativity will get you nowhere in life, but dismissing what many people are warning you about because you'd prefer to focus on the positive can really bite you in the @ss too.

The point is to "see" and "experience" as much as you can for yourself. Opinions from anonymous people on the internet are next to useless on their own without further investigation. For example, no one here really even knows if you are a real OD. Now that is not to say that you are that kind of person but on the flip side there's no reason for anyone to take what you say as absolute truth either. I don't mean that as something specifically against you. I'm just saying that I would not take anyone's "truths" from the internet as being more valuable than getting it from someone in person. Let's just say you've got a much better chance of assessing how truthful it is in person and by doing your own evaluation. I agree with you that it's better if you can get information from various people as well so you can make your own decisions on what the positives and negatives mean to you personally. That's really just statistical common sense. However, even though I agree with you on that, I think that claiming that private practice people are probably lying if they tell you mostly positive things is a bit overly negative to say the least. Not everyone is like you.

On a side note, while your personal situation may stink to you, again I would say that not everyone else is like you. Some people will still like the profession even though you only speak about the faults with it. Did you ever think that some people may not care that pharmacists make more money starting off? Not everyone is all about money. Did you ever think that almost all of these professions have very similar caveats that Optometry does? A quick check of the other forums here would show you that right away. There is no plush, guarantee to any profession. Either you want to do it or you don't.

 

[Jason K]

The point is to "see" and "experience" as much as you can for yourself. Opinions from anonymous people on the internet are next to useless on their own without further investigation. For example, no one here really even knows if you are a real OD. Now that is not to say that you are that kind of person but on the flip side there's no reason for anyone to take what you say as absolute truth either. I don't mean that as something specifically against you. I'm just saying that I would not take anyone's "truths" from the internet as being more valuable than getting it from someone in person. Let's just say you've got a much better chance of assessing how truthful it is in person and by doing your own evaluation. I agree with you that it's better if you can get information from various people as well so you can make your own decisions on what the positives and negatives mean to you personally. That's really just statistical common sense. However, even though I agree with you on that, I think that claiming that private practice people are probably lying if they tell you mostly positive things is a bit overly negative to say the least. Not everyone is like you.

On a side note, while your personal situation may stink to you, again I would say that not everyone else is like you. Some people will still like the profession even though you only speak about the faults with it. Did you ever think that some people may not care that pharmacists make more money starting off? Not everyone is all about money. Did you ever think that almost all of these professions have very similar caveats that Optometry does? A quick check of the other forums here would show you that right away. There is no plush, guarantee to any profession. Either you want to do it or you don't.

Netmag, I have a few points that I'd like to address regarding your post:

1) You're making claims about my statements which are not true. Nowhere in my post did I claim that everyone in private practice who has anything positive to say is "probably lying." I said you should consider that the information you are getting may be biased, just like it can be on these forums. Situations influence what people are willing to say and not say, along with the manner in which they say it. Example? No one I work with has any clue about how I feel regarding optometry. They think I love it and so do my patients. And yet I'm here, stating the complete opposite. Interesting, right? For all you know, I could be one of those PP docs who talks about how great the profession is right now.

2) Yes, I have considered that some people do not care that pharmacists make more money at the outset (and usually beyond, these days) what ODs make. I was once one of those blissfully clueless people who thought "Money isn't everything, I just want a career I can be happy with." It's true, money isn't everything, but when you have a hard time paying for your degree because the income potential won't allow you to live comfortably while paying for it, reality sets in. I can't think of any sane person who would go into optometry because they are "all about money." If I were looking to make big bucks, I can assure you, I would have gone into another field. I was after balance. So, when you say that it doesn't matter that some similar professions start with pay that exceeds OD pay by 20K or more, think again. I'd love to hear from you when you're two years out. If you want to go bust your butt for 4-5 years to come out and make what amounts to 55K or so after you pay your loans, be my guest. C'mon in, the optometry water is fantastic.

3) You're right. You have no way of knowing I'm a real OD. I could be a 350 lb female Samoan hairdresser sitting at my computer with a well-hidden G-string binki on while I type this. Maybe I have a strong propensity to go on professional forums which I have no knowledge of, and post comments about the various aspects of working in those fields. That being said, you're correct. You have no way of knowing if I have any business stating my comments. Hold on.....I have to go do a blowdry.....

4) ........I'm back. I just got paid $350 for doing a 2 hr color tint and hair relaxing treatment. That's more than you ODs make! All I have ever said on this forum is to do your own research, don't rely on what the AOA, the BLS, internet searches, me, or anyone else tells you. In my opinion, optometry is not a good investment for most people who go into it right now since their idea of what's coming after graduation is unrealistic in terms of pay and practice setting. However, if you look into things and you see what optometry really is and you don't care, then go for it. Spend 200K, come out, fight with your colleagues for crap commercial jobs that you'll string together to make an income. Or plan on going into private practice. If it happens and you can survive on what your paid after you pay back your loans and other expenses, awesome. Better yet, maybe you want to gamble and take out another 200K on top of what you already owe. It's possible to get 100% financing, right? Geez, I hope that practice does well, and quickly. If it doesn't, you may find there was some truth coming from those who warned you about the state of the profession.

5) There is no guarantee in any profession, you're right about that. No one can go into optometry school or any other degree program and "expect" to come out and be successful regardless of their input. But when you odds of success are that which the average optometry school grad has right now, the investment loses its appeal, in my opinion. If you think you can beat the odds and come out with what you want out of life, be my guest. The question is, why do you want to undertake something with diminishing odds of return. If you're just someone who's obsessed with eye balls and can't see yourself doing anything but optometry, maybe that's all you need. I don't believe the majority of ODs lay awake at night dreaming about eyes. People usually go into optometry because of what they believe it will offer in terms of professional return, not an undying fascination with eyeballs.

 

[Shnurek]

The question is, why do you want to undertake something with diminishing odds of return. If you're just someone who's obsessed with eye balls and can't see yourself doing anything but optometry, maybe that's all you need. I don't believe the majority of ODs lay awake at night dreaming about eyes. People usually go into optometry because of what they believe it will offer in terms of professional return, not an undying fascination with eyeballs.

Maybe with the lower compensation of optometrists and all physicians in general, more people that do have an undying fascination of science and medicine will enter the respective professions instead of a lust for money. This will create more empathetic doctors that enjoy what they do. If you love money then go into finance and/or become an entrepreneur.

 

[netmag]

Netmag, I have a few points that I'd like to address regarding your post:

1) You're making claims about my statements which are not true. Nowhere in my post did I claim that everyone in private practice who has anything positive to say is "probably lying." I said you should consider that the information you are getting may be biased, just like it can be on these forums. Situations influence what people are willing to say and not say, along with the manner in which they say it. Example? No one I work with has any clue about how I feel regarding optometry. They think I love it and so do my patients. And yet I'm here, stating the complete opposite. Interesting, right? For all you know, I could be one of those PP docs who talks about how great the profession is right now.

2) Yes, I have considered that some people do not care that pharmacists make more money at the outset (and usually beyond, these days) what ODs make. I was once one of those blissfully clueless people who thought "Money isn't everything, I just want a career I can be happy with." It's true, money isn't everything, but when you have a hard time paying for your degree because the income potential won't allow you to live comfortably while paying for it, reality sets in. I can’t think of any sane person who would go into optometry because they are “all about money.” If I were looking to make big bucks, I can assure you, I would have gone into another field. I was after balance. So, when you say that it doesn't matter that some similar professions start with pay that exceeds OD pay by 20K or more, think again. I'd love to hear from you when you're two years out. If you want to go bust your butt for 4-5 years to come out and make what amounts to 55K or so after you pay your loans, be my guest. C’mon in, the optometry water is fantastic.

You insinuate that private practice people are being disengenuous when they speak positively about the profession and you do it in most of your posts. That includes this one where you use yourself as an example of how you fool everyone by pretending to be happy at work. If you really are even struggling maybe it could be that more people see through your act than you think.

I'm not sure who you want to shed a tear for you given that most of America is neck deep in debt with no job prospects at all. Sorry that's just reality. You're not going to find a lot of sympathy just because your prospects aren't quite as green as those for a Dentist or you make less than a Pharmacist starting out. The grass is not always greener on the other side but if you personally feel it is then come up with a plan, make your move, and stop whining about it.

I'll be honest and say that I have a hard time taking any of your posts seriously because I don't think it's possible for someone to have gone through optometry school and yet still have such a deep sense of entitlement and lack of understanding of what's going on in the real world. If it's that bad for you, then take responsibility for your own poor decisions and do something about. If you want advice then go seek it. If you want to just whine about how you're trapped and it stinks then I don't think anyone is listening anymore. Everyone is probably smart enough to get the gist of those kind of posts after the first few and there just aren't enough hours in the day to bother reading much more of that.

By the way, I'm not a pre-optometry student. I'm already established in my career (which is not related to Optometry). Established enough to know that if you spend most of your free time whining about what other people have and you don't that you're not going to be happy or get very far. Fix your own problems first. If your stories are true and it's that bad for you then obviously you are carrying around too much baggage for anyone to bother taking career advice from. If your stories aren't true well then that's not good to take seriously either.

 

[Jason K]

Maybe with the lower compensation of optometrists and all physicians in general, more people that do have an undying fascination of science and medicine will enter the respective professions instead of a lust for money. This will create more empathetic doctors that enjoy what they do. If you love money then go into finance and/or become an entrepreneur.

No one who goes into optometry these days has a lust for money. If he/she does, they're delusional. They should, however, expect to benefit reasonably from their investment of time and money. If you graduate with an OD and have trouble paying back your loans because the going rate of 70 to 80K doesn't allow you to keep up, you'll be miserable, even if you don't care about money. A huge percentage of grads go right into IBR after their deferment period (if they get one from their lender). A lot of them don't even realize that they're adding 1K to 1.5K to their balance every month when they underpay or don't pay. The problems of educational expense vs financial payout that are plaguing trade/technical school right now will eventually hit optometry. Actually, they already have, but due to the number of people on IBR, they just don't show up in the numbers yet.

 

[Jason K]

You insinuate that private practice people are being disengenuous when they speak positively about the profession and you do it in most of your posts. That includes this one where you use yourself as an example of how you fool everyone by pretending to be happy at work. If you really are even struggling maybe it could be that more people see through your act than you think.

I'm not sure who you want to shed a tear for you given that most of America is neck deep in debt with no job prospects at all. Sorry that's just reality. You're not going to find a lot of sympathy just because your prospects aren't quite as green as those for a Dentist or you make less than a Pharmacist starting out. The grass is not always greener on the other side but if you personally feel it is then come up with a plan, make your move, and stop whining about it.

I'll be honest and say that I have a hard time taking any of your posts seriously because I don't think it's possible for someone to have gone through optometry school and yet still have such a deep sense of entitlement and lack of understanding of what's going on in the real world. If it's that bad for you, then take responsibility for your own poor decisions and do something about. If you want advice then go seek it. If you want to just whine about how you're trapped and it stinks then I don't think anyone is listening anymore. Everyone is probably smart enough to get the gist of those kind of posts after the first few and there just aren't enough hours in the day to bother reading much more of that.

By the way, I'm not a pre-optometry student. I'm already established in my career (which is not related to Optometry). Established enough to know that if you spend most of your free time whining about what other people have and you don't that you're not going to be happy or get very far. Fix your own problems first. If your stories are true and it's that bad for you then obviously you are carrying around too much baggage for anyone to bother taking career advice from. If your stories aren't true well then that's not good to take seriously either.

First, are you kidding me? What are you even doing on here if you're not in the industry? Talk about not taking someone seriously? Do you think anyone would take me seriously if I went onto a mechanical engineer's forum and started picking apart posts from engineers who are unhappy with their professional returns? C'mon, dude - seriously?

Second, would you mind quoting me to show me specifically where I directly insinuated that all PP docs who are positive are lying? I'd like to see it. I used myself as an example to demonstrate how things should not be taken at face value, necessarily, and that people need to be critical of where information comes from. That's just being intelligent. To do otherwise is to be an idiot.

I'm not on here trying to get sympathy from anyone. I'm here telling people that what they're heading for may be very different from what they expecting to see. Did you go to a private OD school and spend 200K on your professional credentials? Oh, wait, I forgot, you're not an optometrist and you're not even studying to be one. I don't recall ever, in any post, asking for anyone to "shed a tear" for me. And once again, I have never said, in any post, that everyone in PP who makes positive comments is being "disingenuous." I don't know how many times I need to repeat it, but I will again. People need to consider the source of the info and the environment in which it's delivered. If you don't see that, I don't care what profession you're in, you're clueless.

Also, most of my free time? It takes about 30 seconds to respond to one of these comments. If you have 30 seconds of free time in your field, whatever it may be, maybe you should consider switching paths as well.

 

[netmag]

First, are you kidding me? What are you even doing on here if you're not in the industry? Talk about not taking someone seriously? Do you think anyone would take me seriously if I went onto a mechanical engineer's forum and started picking apart posts from engineers who are unhappy with their professional returns? C'mon, dude - seriously?

Second, would you mind quoting me to show me specifically where I directly insinuated that all PP docs who are positive are lying? I'd like to see it. I used myself as an example to demonstrate how things should not be taken at face value, necessarily, and that people need to be critical of where information comes from. That's just being intelligent. To do otherwise is to be an idiot.

I'm not on here trying to get sympathy from anyone. I'm here telling people that what they're heading for may be very different from what they expecting to see. Did you go to a private OD school and spend 200K on your professional credentials? Oh, wait, I forgot, you're not an optometrist and you're not even studying to be one. I don't recall ever, in any post, asking for anyone to "shed a tear" for me. And once again, I have never said, in any post, that everyone in PP who makes positive comments is being "disingenuous." I don't know how many times I need to repeat it, but I will again. People need to consider the source of the info and the environment in which it's delivered. If you don't see that, I don't care what profession you're in, you're clueless.

Also, most of my free time? It takes about 30 seconds to respond to one of these comments. If you have 30 seconds of free time in your field, whatever it may be, maybe you should consider switching paths as well.

Huh, why should I change paths? At this moment, your comments don't even make sense.

So I'm not allowed to confront you with your own silliness unless I'm "in the profession"? Yet somehow you and you alone have the authority to talk about how much better all these other professions are? Also, I've never said anything to try to steer anyone here one way or the other in regards to their career choice. That's 100% what you do here. They have the right to make the same decisions you got to make without having to hear you constantly whine about how you got shafted and are entitled to something more than what you're currently getting out of your profession. To me, your posts portray you exactly in that way.

You're 100% correct about considering the source. However, that also applies to yourself on this forum. Why should anyone listen to anything that a person who clearly has a personal agenda associated with all of their posts has to say? Maybe you should have slipped in at least a few normal posts so it's not painfully obvious. Currently, your posts are 100% agenda based. From the time that you posted a custom made anti-optometry video (your 2nd post ever by the way) to now. 100%. And you want to be taken as a serious source of information? Telling people they shouldn't trust what ODs say in person because they might be inclined to lie to make them feel better and that's what you used to do too (lie in person)? Really? They should just assume they might be lied to by talking to anyone in person, huh? Don't trust anyone. They're all lying, right? This insinuates that there must be large numbers of ODs who are deceitful by nature and too scared to give someone a straight answer. Yet everyone should seriously consider the things that you say anonymously here, right? Because you only lie in person? Ridiculous.

Anyway, I only wanted to call you out because you're trying to actively steer people's career choices in an obvious (and somewhat childish) way. I'm pretty sure anyone worthy of getting into one of these programs would see through it anyway so perhaps I was wasting my time. Aside from that though, I don't actually have any interest in carrying on more conversation with you as I believe I've said enough already.

 

[Jason K]

So I'm not allowed to confront you with your own silliness unless I'm "in the profession"? Yet somehow you and you alone have the authority to talk about how much better all these other professions are?

One of the things that truly irks me more than anything on this site is how people put words in other's mouths. You seem to be particularly good at it. Show me where I stated that candidates considering optometry should listen to what I say and ignore what other people with opposing opinions say? Where? When did I claim to have "the sole authority" to make claims? I'd like quotes. Also, show me where I claimed that "all these other professions" are better than optometry. Quotes would be appreciated here as well. Thanks. I've said some pay new grads more, that's for sure, they just about all pay more, but when did I come out and say "you should do X because it's better than optometry." Again, quotes would be appreciated. Actually, I'll save you the time. I think on one post I agreed with someone who said that if he had to pick one health profession right now, he'd pick dentistry. So there you go, I agreed with someone who likes dental. I guess that makes me a poster boy for the ADA and dentistry in general, right?

I have never, not even once, come out and said that optometry school is a bad choice for everyone. As a matter of fact, I've said SEVERAL TIMES, that it's up to the applicant to look at the information, know what they're getting into, and make their own decision. Why don't you go back and cut out all the posts in which I've said just that? You'd be busy for a while. What I have said, repeatedly, is that what most people picture of what optometry is, is not what's actually there. Do you want to try and tell me I'm wrong on that point? Go ahead, Mr non-optometrist, tell me I'm wrong on that.

They have the right to make the same decisions you got to make without having to hear you constantly whine about how you got shafted and are entitled to something more than what you're currently getting out of your profession. To me, your posts portray you exactly in that way.

I posted this thread to pose the question "Is optometry school a good investment?" I have spent the rest of my time on this thread responding to other's posts. Some I agree with, some I don't. If you call that whining, I really don't care.

Also, I've never said anything to try to steer anyone here one way or the other in regards to their career choice. That's 100% what you do here.

I'm not trying to hide the fact that I am unhappy with optometry and that I believe it to be a poor investment of time and money. You're right, that's just about 100% of what I do here. Thank you for pointing that out, I don't think the rest of the readers had quite put that together. I suppose I should have gone and made some "optometry is awesome" posts to throw people off the scent. Brilliant.

You're 100% correct about considering the source. However, that also applies to yourself on this forum. Why should anyone listen to anything that a person who clearly has a personal agenda associated with all of their posts has to say?

Ok, again, show me where I exempted myself from consideration. Where are the posts in which I imply or state that I am right and everyone else is wrong? Quotes please. I'm arguing my point, just like everyone else on here, including you. I never once said I'm right and everyone else is wrong. Ever.

Telling people they shouldn't trust what ODs say in person because they might be inclined to lie to make them feel better and that's what you used to do too (lie in person)? Really? They should just assume they might be lied to by talking to anyone in person, huh? Don't trust anyone. They're all lying, right?

Where did I say they should never trust what ODs say in person? Where? I said that information should be taken with consideration for the situation and manner in which it's given. Are you going to contest me on that point? Show me where I said an OD who is being positive is definitely lying. Quotes please. I said "Have you considered the fact that......" That's not tantamount to "The person you spoke with is lying." Maybe I'm lying. Maybe I'm some 55 yo OD with a blazing PP making 500K net/ year in a saturated market and I'm trying to keep my competition down. I'll state it more clearly in case you missed it. MY COMMENTS SHOULD BE TAKEN WITH CONSIDERATION JUST LIKE ANYONE ELSE'S.

I don't care if you come on here and tell me I'm the biggest idiot ever for making my claims, that I'm whining, that I'm overly negative, that I'm this or that. I don't even care if you come on here, as a non-OD, and tell me that optometry is the best investment ever. That would be your opinion, in that case. But don't come on here and put words in my mouth, especially if you're an "established professional" that has nothing to do with optometry.