Anyone ever get to asist a surgeon while shadowing?

[Disinence2]

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Don't expect it, but.......as a pre-med I was first assist on numerous surgeries (behind the resident) while my faculty just kind of watched on. I got hands-on anatomy lessons, cut suture, retracted, whatever.......

Be careful about including things like this on your application. Even with consent from the patient to have a pre-med assist during surgery (unlikely) You do not have any form of insurance. Unethical at best.

 

[Food]

Don't expect it, but.......as a pre-med I was first assist on numerous surgeries (behind the resident) while my faculty just kind of watched on. I got hands-on anatomy lessons, cut suture, retracted, whatever.......

Seriously - this is absolutely ridiculous to me. How in God's name do physicians let pre-meds actually touch a patient.

Edit: In this country.

 

[dr zaius]

Seriously - this is absolutely ridiculous to me. How in God's name do physicians let pre-meds actually touch a patient.

Edit: In this country.

I suppose it depends on the surgery and the physician. They allowed me to participate on something simple. I'm sure it would be much different in a heart transplant or something much more serious than cleaning a large wound located on the foot. It might have helped that the attending knew my graduate mentor.

I've also touched patients many times in the ER. I've helped restrain convicts, and even acted as a counter balance when an ortho resident was reducing a fracture. *shrug* I guess I'm just lucky, or maybe it's because I volunteer at a severely underfunded county hospital where they need all the help they can get-even if it's from someone with no real training.

 

[Substance P]

I suppose it depends on the surgery and the physician. They allowed me to participate on something simple. I'm sure it would be much different in a heart transplant or something much more serious than cleaning a large wound located on the foot. It might have helped that the attending knew my graduate mentor.

I've also touched patients many times in the ER. I've helped restrain convicts, and even acted as a counter balance when an ortho resident was reducing a fracture. *shrug* I guess I'm just lucky, or maybe it's because I volunteer at a severely underfunded county hospital where they need all the help they can get-even if it's from someone with no real training.

I think touching patients in the ED is different than in the OR. The hospital I worked at was very similar in that regard. I remember a number of circumstances where they just needed an extra set of hands. I also think the underfunded county hospital makes a huge difference. The local hospital where I'm at is the same way. Simply too understaffed to care who is helping as long as there are a couple hands to help (but this still isn't the case in their OR).

 

[Jli]

You will most likely be observing from a gallery or scrubbed in and out of his way. I wouldn't count on actively participating in any surgery.

I don't think any surgeon, physician would actually let you come directly in contact with a patients. you have to have an lisence for that or you could get sued for that.

 

[ANF1986]

The most I've done was read the surgeons texts outloud to him, and he told me what to text back to his girlfriend while he was operating...He asked me to change the song on his Ipod radio a few times....And towards the end of one of the cases a line on the suction blew off and I re-attached it.

I've assisted with minor procedures in the ER when I was volunteering. Way beyond what I should have been able to do, like packing an abcess with gauze, irrigating an infected ear, etc. My volunteer director told me before I started that as the ER staff got to know me better, that I'd be doing things she did not want to know about or hear of. So I assume it was rather common place. But I've never experienced anything close to that in the operating room.

 

[hoot504]

I've never been able to touch an instrument or cut a stitch, but today when viewing a carotid aneurysm repair, the assisting surgeon gave me his blackberry and told me to take pictures of the patch used on the artery. He didn't want to get blood on it 🙂.

 

[MarieMarie]

... I've helped restrain convicts, ....

This doesn't sound like a big deal, but they really shouldn't have had you do that. You could have been injured in a struggle, and restraining a patient is a liability even without getting volunteers involved.

Edit:

The most I've done was read the surgeons texts outloud to him, and he told me what to text back to his girlfriend while he was operating...

Please tell me he was all like "Reply with I WANNA BONE U L8ER BABE"

 

[ANF1986]

This doesn't sound like a big deal, but they really shouldn't have had you do that. You could have been injured in a struggle, and restraining a patient is a liability even without getting volunteers involved.

Edit:


Please tell me he was all like "Reply with I WANNA BONE U L8ER BABE"

Pretty damn close....It was a while ago, but it was something to the effect of "Tell her I said 'I love you too, call you when Im done'"....awkward moment...

 

[Desaad]

In this country, never. Abroad? Absolutely. I worked 5 months in a small, rural hospital in Ecuador and by the end I had the opportunity to give injections, change catheters, deliver babies (solo), suture (solo), and assist on both appendectomies and C-sections (cutting, cleaning, handing tools to the doctors, practicing different types of sutures, etc) It's a bit scary what they allow you to do there, but their philosophy was learn by doing.

 

[TexasPhysician]

Be careful about including things like this on your application. Even with consent from the patient to have a pre-med assist during surgery (unlikely) You do not have any form of insurance. Unethical at best.

I'm WAY past pre-med applications.....

 

[TexasPhysician]

Seriously - this is absolutely ridiculous to me. How in God's name do physicians let pre-meds actually touch a patient.

Edit: In this country.

Not only was it done in this country.....but at a Top 10 medical school.

A senior surgery resident was performing the surgery and the attending watching (while scrubbed in) probably has more experience in that surgery than anyone else in the state.

Not saying I would want this, but it is an academic center.......

 

[chman]

Some of these disturb me... I just went through a class for volunteers at the hospital I am it. It was three hours long and about half of it was about how we don't touch patients unless they are awake, say it is o.k, and there is someone else present in the room.

Even if a doctor asked me to do something like test the range of motion of a leg for a knee replacement, or hold a tool, or even press something, I would not do it! Not only could that dumb doctor get in trouble, but you could be arrested and never be able to get a medical license. It does not take much to **** up your life in these situations.

 

[Kit the Kat]

Some of these disturb me...

Oh yeah, definately agree! When I was volunteering at a hospital and in their OR department, all I ever did was watch and never touched the patient. If a doctor ever had asked me, I would have reacted like this:
😱😕😕😱!?!

The only way you would be ok to assist/touch is if the patient is dead.

Simply watching a surgery was extremely cool anyway!

 

[neuromd03]

Unlicensed and untrained pre-meds assisting in surgery? Are you kidding me?

If something goes wrong, the pre-med would be charged with practicing medicine without a license and for battery.

Maybe you could get this experience outside the US but definitely not anywhere in these 50 states.

 

[neuromd03]

Not only was it done in this country.....but at a Top 10 medical school.

A senior surgery resident was performing the surgery and the attending watching (while scrubbed in) probably has more experience in that surgery than anyone else in the state.

Not saying I would want this, but it is an academic center.......

If the patient had been asked, "Would you want an unlicensed and untrained pre-med student who knows nothing about anatomy and may not even go to medical school to put his or her hands inside your body or to pull your surgical wound apart, so that I can use my scalpel in this delicate procedure?" I doubt that the patient would have consented.

If something were to go wrong, the pre-med would be charged with battery and unlawful practice of medicine. If there is a post-operative complication, such as a wound infection, and the pre-med had his or her hands anywhere near the OR table, it is a lawsuit in the making.

 

[delicatefew24]

I don't think any surgeon, physician would actually let you come directly in contact with a patients. you have to have an lisence for that or you could get sued for that.

I got to scrub in, retract, and he even let me cut a little -- it was a military doctor though... real world version of socialized medicine in the US

 

[Food]

Yeah, seriously - what about the patient's rights? I love teaching hospitals and the established heirarchy of attending, resident, and student - but premeds should not be holding stuff unless the person supposed to be holding it has a sudden heart attack and drops it. Or if it's a third world country and the patient has a 1 in 3 chance of dying anyway.

 

[laxer]

My uncle is a heart surgeon and I got to stand over the patients head and watch him do a double bypass. It was incredible, but I wasn't allowed to touch anything, or even stand near the sterilized instrument trays. On a somewhat unrelated note, I was an intern at the chief medical examiner's office and although the "patients" were already dead, I was allowed to cut, slice, and touch almost anything I wanted. I also got anatomy lessons almost everyday. It was definitely one of the most interesting things I have ever done.

 

[ziggydoc]

I got to observe a surgery standing around the OR, but def did not touch anything, and I didn't really see too much, but it was cool nontheless

 

[CardioPlus]

The only thing I ever got to do was roll the patient onto his side, to get him in place for the surgery. Very excitingggg haaa

 

[Kit the Kat]

I was an intern at the chief medical examiner's office and although the "patients" were already dead, I was allowed to cut, slice, and touch almost anything I wanted.

Yes, exactly! That's the only place that premeds would ever get to touch/cut/etc. Really cool learning experiences there! 🙂

 

[chman]

Yes, exactly! That's the only place that premeds would ever get to touch/cut/etc. Really cool learning experiences there! 🙂

But even then would the deceased need to give consent for such a thing? Are there not laws in place that are specific about medical examiners? I am just wondering because I honestly don't know, but it seems like there would be. It is not like dissecting a rat or something.

 

[Kit the Kat]

But even then would the deceased need to give consent for such a thing?

It isn't like surgery, which is always a choice for the person and family. The family of the deceased could be against even an autopsy being performed (let alone who is observing/performing it) and it would still have to be done according to the law in some circumstances (i.e. person died alone, suspicious circumstances, etc).

You are bound by the same confidentiality rules as they are when you observe/help though, so you would be in trouble if you talked about specifics of the case. Just like normal.

 

[Substance P]

But even then would the deceased need to give consent for such a thing? Are there not laws in place that are specific about medical examiners? I am just wondering because I honestly don't know, but it seems like there would be. It is not like dissecting a rat or something.

I think the difference here is that it is a learning experience and the patient no longer needs to worry about getting an infection or being harmed by the pre-med student. I would say it's fine. I see no ethical dilemma's. The patient is deceased and it's not like the pre-med student is allowed to randomly cut, they are directed by the pathologist.


Add EDIT: A somewhat unnerving aside though, I knew a girl who was in the room as the pathologist was removing the brain of a deceased patient with a bone saw and once the pathologist got a good look at the brain she realized that the patient had CJD that wasn't documented... The pathologist quickly ejected the girl from the room and left herself. The CDC spent a day or two cleaning up that lab and now that poor girl and the pathologist run a risk of presenting with CJD in the future due to all the airborne particulates she was inhaling... Someone should have lost their job for that one. That would scare the living bejesus out of me...

 

[Desaad]

I think the difference here is that it is a learning experience and the patient no longer needs to worry about getting an infection or being harmed by the pre-med student. I would say it's fine. I see no ethical dilemma's. The patient is deceased and it's not like the pre-med student is allowed to randomly cut, they are directed by the pathologist.


Add EDIT: A somewhat unnerving aside though, I knew a girl who was in the room as the pathologist was removing the brain of a deceased patient with a bone saw and once the pathologist got a good look at the brain she realized that the patient had CJD that wasn't documented... The pathologist quickly ejected the girl from the room and left herself. The CDC spent a day or two cleaning up that lab and now that poor girl and the pathologist run a risk of presenting with CJD in the future due to all the airborne particulates she was inhaling... Someone should have lost their job for that one. That would scare the living bejesus out of me...

That is pretty terrifying. I had a similar, though far less grievous, experience when a patient came into the emergency room in Ecuador with a rather nasty boil. He worked with animals on a nearby farm, and the doctor on call at the time asked me to treat it 'the standard way' (lancing, cleaning) and then give him a prescription for standard antibiotics.

I asked "Why the antibiotic if it's just a boil" and the doctor responded "Well, it's Anthrax"

Hahahaha, my face must have been priceless.

 

[Substance P]

That is pretty terrifying. I had a similar, though far less grievous, experience when a patient came into the emergency room in Ecuador with a rather nasty boil. He worked with animals on a nearby farm, and the doctor on call at the time asked me to treat it 'the standard way' (lancing, cleaning) and then give him a prescription for standard antibiotics.

I asked "Why the antibiotic if it's just a boil" and the doctor responded "Well, it's Anthrax"

Hahahaha, my face must have been priceless.

ha ha. You know it's bad when it's just another case of Anthrax...

 

[dididoc]

I was allowed to do a minor suture after having a lecture on skin anatomy and a month's practicing on pork skin...

one other time I got to scrub in during an exciting AAA surgery, but only watched for 5 min coz the resident broke a small artery, the blood spurt and got all over my face...asked to leave immediately

 

[uclaussr]

out of the 7+ surgeons i've got to shadow at this point, only one has allowed me to assist. he taught me how to scrub in properly, and sterile techniques. i got to hold the retractor, cut when he told me to, etc. he would take my finer and lead it to a place and tell me what exactly that was. it was an aboslutely amazing experience. wonderful surgeon at top institution, totally does not fit the "cold ******* surgeon" stereotype

 

[newdoc2013]

this is insane. i cant believe that any of these stories are true.

edit, ive now gone through my surgery rotation and can say that most of these are true if youre a medical student, otherwise you do not have malpractice insurance and you will not be allowed to scrub

 

[chman]

I think the difference here is that it is a learning experience and the patient no longer needs to worry about getting an infection or being harmed by the pre-med student. I would say it's fine. I see no ethical dilemma's. The patient is deceased and it's not like the pre-med student is allowed to randomly cut, they are directed by the pathologist.

Yea, but even cadavers have donated their body to research, therefor giving consent. So I am still not too convinced.

 

[Substance P]

Yea, but even cadavers have donated their body to research, therefor giving consent. So I am still not too convinced.

There is a big difference between a body donated to science and an autopsy. During the autopsy they aren't going to allow you to resect tissue,, expose muscles, veins, arteries, nerves, and bone. You do the standard autopsy removing the organs, then placing them back (often minus the brain). It's not disrespectful to have a student do this and it's not going to hurt the patient. I see zero problem with it.

 

[chman]

There is a big difference between a body donated to science and an autopsy. During the autopsy they aren't going to allow you to resect tissue,, expose muscles, veins, arteries, nerves, and bone. You do the standard autopsy removing the organs, then placing them back (often minus the brain). It's not disrespectful to have a student do this and it's not going to hurt the patient. I see zero problem with it.

I don't really have a problem with it either. But that does not mean that the deceased does not, or the family. Not to mention situations like you mentioned earlier, where the deceased could have T.B or something and get said student sick. All I am saying is I will be surprised if there are not laws in place that deal with this kind of thing.

 

[MsKrispyKreme]

There is a big difference between a body donated to science and an autopsy. During the autopsy they aren't going to allow you to resect tissue,, expose muscles, veins, arteries, nerves, and bone. You do the standard autopsy removing the organs, then placing them back (often minus the brain). It's not disrespectful to have a student do this and it's not going to hurt the patient. I see zero problem with it.

It's not disrespectful for a MED student to do that in the interest of his/her education as a physician, but it is disrespectful for pre-meds.

 

[Red Leader]

For every shadowing opportunity I basically kept my mouth shut unless spoken to (never) and afterwards we chatted about it. During surgery my rule is simple:

1. S.T.F.U
2. S.T.F.U
3. there is no 3

 

[Substance P]

I don't really have a problem with it either. But that does not mean that the deceased does not, or the family. Not to mention situations like you mentioned earlier, where the deceased could have T.B or something and get said student sick. All I am saying is I will be surprised if there are not laws in place that deal with this kind of thing.

I hear what you're saying and you are probably right, I'm just saying I don't have a problem with it.

It's not disrespectful for a MED student to do that in the interest of his/her education as a physician, but it is disrespectful for pre-meds.

I disagree. I don't think pre-meds should be doing much cutting or anything along those lines, but I don't think it's an issue if they get their hands dirty. Just my take though.

 

[Food]

For every shadowing opportunity I basically kept my mouth shut unless spoken to (never) and afterwards we chatted about it. During surgery my rule is simple:

1. S.T.F.U
2. S.T.F.U
3. there is no 3

Well I think that's a little extreme. I mean what's the point of being at a surgery if you can't even ask questions about it. My surgeon has always been extremely welcoming with questions - he encourages me to ask during surgeries. Plus he and the residents are always joking around during surgery - I think it helps to create a light atmosphere. Then again he isn't usually doing extraordinarily risky procedures - usually just nephrectomies, percs or laparascopic stuff.

 

[TexasPhysician]

Unlicensed and untrained pre-meds assisting in surgery? Are you kidding me?

If something goes wrong, the pre-med would be charged with practicing medicine without a license and for battery.

Maybe you could get this experience outside the US but definitely not anywhere in these 50 states.

How is this any different from a nursing student being asked to cut something? I've seen this NUMEROUS times in medical school when there aren't enough hands in the room. Pre-meds are just as qualified in my opinion.

How is this different from any medical student? They don't have a license to practice medicine.

The school had insurance for me like they did from the medical students.

And yes I did inform every patient that I would be scrubbing-in beforehand with such and such physicians. Only 1 had a problem with it.....and I was only allowed to watch from a distance.

Again NeuroMd, I performed all of this at a Top 10 medical institution......in the United States. They didn't blink an eye....

 

[Blesbok]

When I was a volunteer I scrubbed in on a few surgeries. However, it was more just to get a closer view and it was during surgeries at night performed by the residents at a public hospital. If you are lucky you MIGHT get to actually scrub and at most you will get to hold a retractor or something. However, most surgeons do not even want the liability of having you scrub in since they have to document everyone that was scrubbed. Most likely they will just have you watch from the head .

 

[Blesbok]

How is this any different from a nursing student being asked to cut something? I've seen this NUMEROUS times in medical school when there aren't enough hands in the room. Pre-meds are just as qualified in my opinion.

How is this different from any medical student? They don't have a license to practice medicine.

The school had insurance for me like they did from the medical students.

And yes I did inform every patient that I would be scrubbing-in beforehand with such and such physicians. Only 1 had a problem with it.....and I was only allowed to watch from a distance.

Again NeuroMd, I performed all of this at a Top 10 medical institution......in the United States. They didn't blink an eye....

Your undergrad institution had malpractice insurance on you? I find that hard to believe.

 

[Dannyw]

I've had the opportunity to see all types of surgeries, ortho, colorectal, general, urology, ENT, vascular and my favorite has been the colorectal stuff. I did get to touch a patient once. A general surgeon was draining an abscess and he wanted me to feel the mass (not exactly something to brag about). haha

With that said, there is no way in hell you are going to be assisting. You are not trained and unless the surgeon is out of his mind, you will be standing away from the patient. Most of them will let you lean over and look at cool stuff, though. It should be a good time. Most surgeons are talkative and friendly, same with the nurses. The last surgery I saw was an ACL reconstruction and the Orthopedist was playing air guitar to journey while preparing a tibial ligament graft.

 

[TexasPhysician]

Your undergrad institution had malpractice insurance on you? I find that hard to believe.

Who said the undergrad had insurance on me?

The medical institution I visited covered liability.

 

[TexasPhysician]

I worked in a hospital for three years. I spent a lot of time in the operating area of the hospital. I also spent many hours in the PACU area...including ICU, CCU, etc, etc. I handled a lot of bodily fluids, tissues, body parts and have seen it all (foot amputee, leg amputee, arm amputee, ear amputee, etc, etc, etc).

If I ever saw a pre-med student (aka some random stranger from the outside hospital world) even come close to a patient that had any serious medical needs, I would ask them to leave or go stand in the corner. Where I worked, they banned all non-hospital/clinic from the operating and pacu area.

If any per-med student asked if they could get a close view of a surgery in the OR, I would have to ask them if they know anything about how medicine is done. The mere fact that they don't realize that they shouldn't touch anything beyond a scrub and soap shows how "stupid" and "ignorant" they are about the process.

Your "status" next to your name says PRE-MED and you are ragging on pre-med opportunities?

No matter who you are......if the chair of the department tells a pre-med student to do something, I don't see how you are going to stop it.

I'm not telling pre-meds to go up to patients and give patient care without permission. I'm saying that as a pre-med I was asked to help with surgery. Granted I did nothing of any real importance besides cut suture - I was face to face with an open body on a daily basis.

 

[nlax30]

Who said the undergrad had insurance on me?

The medical institution I visited covered liability.

His point was that you were a pre-med/undergrad at that point and he was surprised that the local institution (whether it was a med school, or undergrad university) would cover someone who wasn't currently a medical student there.

 

[TexasPhysician]

His point was that you were a pre-med/undergrad at that point and he was surprised that the local institution (whether it was a med school, or undergrad university) would cover someone who wasn't currently a medical student there.

I was covered under some generic pre-med experience program that they have had for years.....

 

[Substance P]

I was covered under some generic pre-med experience program that they have had for years.....

That's probably why you got the experience that you did. I don't think anyone is coming down on your for getting some great undergrad experience, they are rather just shocked that surgeons allowed you to do what you did. Knowing that your university had insurance in place for you guys leads one to believe they expected some sort of minor patient contact, unless it was actually for you guys (meaning, if you got hurt/injured) and not for the risk you were adding to the patient's surgery.

Once again, man, definitely not ragging on you for having great experiences, more like a little jealous.

 

[ANF1986]

Not awkward at all. You need a better understanding of what these residents/attendings go through. Keeping in contact with a signifcant other is very important. That little kiss in the morning and that random text during the day goes a long ways.........it shows they are thinking about them while at work. That is very important.

Only a single pre-med student would think it would be odd......I bet every single hospital/clinic employee in the area would understand why the resident/attending would have you text a loved one for them.

Lol is that for real? Only a single pre-med student would think it would be odd, to read a text message verbatim that said "i love you baby" in a room full of people. I'm not single, and I wasn't single at the time. So I guess you would have to add post-bac students with girlfriends to the list of people who would think it was odd as well. Guess thats what happens when you ASSume things.

 

[Alwaysbehopeful]

I think it depends on the hospital and the setting. I volunteer at a county hospital in a densely populated area and they need all the help they can get. Being a volunteer we have plenty of unsupervised patient contact such as perform 12 lead ECG.

Our surgery observation program, volunteers have scrubbed in and was allowed by the surgeon to "feel cancer", and often times cut stitches and what not. It also a teaching hospital so that helps a lot.

Might seem shocking to some but being a volunteer here you get plenty of hands on because they have too many patients and too little staff. They need all the help they can get and if you are competent person then the nurses will let you help out with all sorts of stuff.