Anyone hurt while practicing OMT in medical school?

[Coltuna]

Not a troll. Actually curious. If so, was the instructor able to step in and fix it?

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[CoomassieBlue57]

Yeah, my ego when they turned down the lights and had us feel the CRI for 45 minutes.

 

[Coltuna]

Yeah, my ego when they turned down the lights and had us feel the CRI for 45 minutes.

You didn't answer my second question. Was the instructor able to step in and fix this? Or is the ego permanently damaged?

 

[HanSoloYolo]

Edit: Didn't realize it was serious, but I too am curious about it

 

[popopopop]

A few of my classmates got hurt during thoracic HVLA. I haven't heard of any instructors stepping in, but they're allowed to have a surrogate partner sub for them during practicals.

 

[goilers]

Not exactly what you were asking, but I saw this article from a little while ago, pretty crazy;

$9.858 Million Verdict Against Midwestern University's Chicago College of Osteopathic Medicine | Rapoport Law Offices, P.C. | Illinois

A CCOM student apparently pretty seriously injured another student while practicing OMM in a clinic (unsupervised), which ended in a pretty big loss for Midwestern University of over $9.8 million. There could be other info to this story, and I admit I didn't do a ton of research on it, but wild nonetheless.

 

[stickgirl390]

Following because I have the same question.

 

[le_purrde]

I wouldn't be surprised. I was shocked when a student swiftly twisted/cracked another student's neck during an OMM display at COMP. That is straight out of the chiropractor handbook and is frankly dangerous to be doing. It was super cringey as well because the student kept going on and on about how awesome it is to pop people's joints, which only further made me feel like I was attending an interview at a chiropractic school.

 

[ThrowawayDO2288]

Not a troll. Actually curious. If so, was the instructor able to step in and fix it?

99% of our OMM that were taught first semester. Like muscle energy and counter strain that doesn't really work

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I wouldn't be surprised. I was shocked when a student swiftly twisted/cracked another student's neck during an OMM display at COMP. That is straight out of the chiropractor handbook and is frankly dangerous to be doing. It was super cringey as well because the student kept going on and on about how awesome it is to pop people's joints, which only further made me feel like I was attending an interview at a chiropractic school.

Lol why were you shocked? You will have to learn that and do it to pass practicals and do (and learn) far more controversial techniques (i.e cranial).

 

[cjcarter]

Someone in my class was during thoracic HVLA as well. I think this person was treated by one of our faculty a few times to fix the issue.

 

[Cath Up]

Someone in my class was during thoracic HVLA as well. I think this person was treated by one of our faculty a few times to fix the issue.

Is there any pushback from students on the lack of evidence for any given techniques? Thinking primarily of cranial stuff.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Is there any pushback from students on the lack of evidence for any given techniques? Thinking primarily of cranial stuff.

There is no point. It’s on COMLEX so you have to know it, and causing a fuss would only make things difficult for yourself. Just learn it and then forget about it the moment you graduate. I will say that I have been pleasantly surprised with what we have learned so far, and I don’t think that all OMM is bogus. A lot of it is just simple stretching and massaging different muscles and tissues. Even HVLA is useful in context (not necessarily cervical, not a fan of that).

 

[MADD!!!]

Someone told me that a student at WVSOM actually killed another student by doing HVLA and cracking the student's vertebral artery, so they don't teach cervical/cranial HVLA there anymore? Can anyone speculate on this? I've heard this, but also seems like a lot of ppl stay stuff out of nowhere so not sure how credible it is.

And loll, Dr. Nicholas (one of the writers of the OMM textbooks) openly states in our lectures that there's a clause that says most (if not all) of OMM is theory and not a lot of it has scientific evidence yet. But like AnatomyGrey said, it's on the boards, therefore it's taught and we have to learn it for boards. Glad to say though that ppl in my school are nice and don't really crack each other's backs unless we want it, and faculty care more about our technique and verbalization of correct technique than the actual performance of it.

 

[cjcarter]

Is there any pushback from students on the lack of evidence for any given techniques? Thinking primarily of cranial stuff.

I haven’t heard much so far, but we haven’t learned cranial yet. For the most part though, our faculty is cool with us not performing the final thrust in HVLA and doing muscle energy instead. So that’s a plus.

 

[California Bear]

.

 

[deleted600623]

I have a feeling I wouldn't be comfortable performing HVLA techniques on another human being for the simple reason that they could be seriously injured.

 

[Futuredoc23 23]

There is no point. It’s on COMLEX so you have to know it, and causing a fuss would only make things difficult for yourself. Just learn it and then forget about it the moment you graduate. I will say that I have been pleasantly surprised with what we have learned so far, and I don’t think that all OMM is bogus. A lot of it is just simple stretching and massaging different muscles and tissues. Even HVLA is useful in context (not necessarily cervical, not a fan of that).

Learn and forget it. How long does it take to learn it? I'm open to applying to DO schools, but don't know much about them and don't want to attend a place that is like chiropractic school with a little medical school on the side.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

don't want to attend a place that is like chiropractic school with a little medical school on the side.

First of all, OMM is not like chiropractics at all. Second of all, you have it flipped around. It’s medical school with a little OMM on the side, like max 6 hours a week and that is at the OMM heavy schools.

 

[Futuredoc23 23]

First of all, OMM is not like chiropractics at all. Second of all, you have it flipped around. It’s medical school with a little OMM on the side, like max 6 hours a week and that is at the OMM heavy schools.

Oh ok, that sounds manageable. I'm not trying to diminish DOs, just trying to get a grasp of the difference between the schools.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Oh ok, that sounds manageable. I'm not trying to diminish DOs, just trying to get a grasp of the difference between the schools.

OMM is about 200 hours spread out over the course of the 4 years. It’s not chiro school.

 

[BluegrassBuckeye]

I can only speak for my school, but nobody is required to be the recipient of HVLA. Most students do decline which puts both the the "patient" and the "doctor" at ease and nobody has been injured that I know of (unless you count headaches from having somebody dig into your greater wing of sphenoid during cranial). Even in practicals if we're given an HVLA technique to do we just have to properly engage the barrier and then verbalize in what direction we would hypothetically do the final corrective force.

 

[DOCzilla15]

Oh ok, that sounds manageable. I'm not trying to diminish DOs, just trying to get a grasp of the difference between the schools.

I'll tell you first hand I spend the mandatory time in lab maybe 2-4 hours a week with some weeks having no labs, and then before exam I give it a total of 4 hours. The time commitment is minimal it just feels like a thorn in my side most of the time. Like a hurdle to be able to study class material haha

 

[Futuredoc23 23]

I'll tell you first hand I spend the mandatory time in lab maybe 2-4 hours a week with some weeks having no labs, and then before exam I give it a total of 4 hours. The time commitment is minimal it just feels like a thorn in my side most of the time. Like a hurdle to be able to study class material haha

So it doesn't tremendously impact your ability to focus on the other medical school classes?

 

[Ho0v-man]

So it doesn't tremendously impact your ability to focus on the other medical school classes?

During midterms and omm practicals it absolutely does. But at the same time, it’s not like everybody in school isn’t in the exact same situation when omm gets in the way.

 

[ortnakas]

I don't recall any actual injuries, just being sore occasionally.

So it doesn't tremendously impact your ability to focus on the other medical school classes?

I don't think it "tremendously impacts" anything. Depending on how much you have to study OMM to feel safe that you'll pass your quiz and not hurt your friends, it's somewhere between a non-issue and a moderate annoyance.

 

[Futuredoc23 23]

I don't recall any actual injuries, just being sore occasionally.

I don't think it "tremendously impacts" anything. Depending on how much you have to study OMM to feel safe that you'll pass your quiz and not hurt your friends, it's somewhere between a non-issue and a moderate annoyance.

seems like something that is always nagging at you, but just persevere.

 

[Lebowski9]

Nope. We perform HVLA on each other all the time outside of class (mostly thoracic and lumbar) and have yet to have an injury. I’m not really that good at cervical (still having difficulty localizing) but of the 2-3 necks I have successfully cracked, those people are still walking around. I feel it’s pretty hard to injure someone unless 1) you have no clue what you’re doing 2) have no ability to control your own strength or 3) fail to recognize that person is a poor candidate for Hvla.

Also, I despise OMT. Just a disclaimer. Chapman’s points, baby!

 

[le_purrde]

Lol why were you shocked? You will have to learn that and do it to pass practicals and do (and learn) far more controversial techniques (i.e cranial).

I suppose I just expected more from a DO school. I was majorly turned off by COMP when all of their students were lecturing us on popping knuckles and whatnot. I'm not interested in going to chiropractor school, and yet all they did was discuss cracking necks, fingers, etc. I understand OMM is part of the game, but I'd rather just discuss practical applications rather than somewhat dangerous and reckless neck popping. Save that for the chiroquackers of the world.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

but I'd rather just discuss practical applications rather than somewhat dangerous and reckless neck popping

You said they were doing this during their OMM portion so I am confused as to what you expected them to do. Again, there are a lot more annoying things that you will learn than HVLA.

Also I am not a big fan of cervical HVLA but to describe it as dangerous and reckless is a little uninformed honestly.

 

[le_purrde]

You said they were doing this during their OMM portion so I am confused as to what you expected them to do. Again, there are a lot more annoying things that you will learn than HVLA.

Also I am not a big fan of cervical HVLA but to describe it as dangerous and reckless is a little uninformed honestly.

Feel free to enlighten me on how quickly twisting someone's neck isn't dangerous or reckless.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Feel free to enlighten me on how quickly twisting someone's neck isn't dangerous or reckless.

Welcome to medicine, where everything you do could have sever repercussions if done wrong. Is a surgeon dangerous and reckless when they are dissecting next to the aorta? How about the Oncologist using toxic chemo drugs that are pumped through a cancer patients body, purposefully destroying it hoping it kills the cancer first?

I am not trying to even defend OMM, I’ve stated I am not a big fan, but it’s a little naive to respond in the way you have especially since you have no context.

 

[le_purrde]

Welcome to medicine, where everything you do could have sever repercussions if done wrong. Is a surgeon dangerous and reckless when they are dissecting next to the aorta? How about the Oncologist using toxic chemo drugs that are pumped through a cancer patients body, purposefully destroying it hoping it kills the cancer first?

I am not trying to even defend OMM, I’ve stated I am not a big fan, but it’s a little naive to respond in the way you have especially since you have no context.

That's a nice false equivalence.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

That's a nice false equivalence.

Lol. Look, my whole point in responding to you is to point out how dumb it would be to choose a school based on their OMM presentation during the interview day. Reckless and dangerous would be having you do the technique with no training, not two students or OMM fellows who have received training and with the receiver being ok with it. They likely chose cervical HVLA because it has a dramatic effect. Would you have rather had them show you cranial or Chapman’s points? I am legitimately confused as to what you were expecting.

You will have to learn this, you will be tested on it, and it will be on your boards. Some schools will even make you perform the technique fully.

I never thought in a million years I would ever actually defend OMM, let alone cervical HVLA

 

[Lebowski9]

Lol. Look, my whole point in responding to you is to point out how dumb it would be to choose a school based on their OMM presentation during the interview day. Reckless and dangerous would be having you do the technique with no training, not two students or OMM fellows who have received training and with the receiver being ok with it. They likely chose cervical HVLA because it has a dramatic effect. Would you have rather had them show you cranial or Chapman’s points? I am legitimately confused as to what you were expecting.

You will have to learn this, you will be tested on it, and it will be on your boards. Some schools will even make you perform the technique fully.

I never thought in a million years I would ever actually defend OMM, let alone cervical HVLA

QFT

 

[YoloSwaggins#JarlBallin]

I wouldn't be surprised. I was shocked when a student swiftly twisted/cracked another student's neck during an OMM display at COMP. That is straight out of the chiropractor handbook and is frankly dangerous to be doing. It was super cringey as well because the student kept going on and on about how awesome it is to pop people's joints, which only further made me feel like I was attending an interview at a chiropractic school.

I had that exact same feeling during my demonstration. I wish to minimize OMT as much as possible in my training or at least the head maneuvers.

 

[osteodoc7]

First of all, OMM is not like chiropractics at all. Second of all, you have it flipped around. It’s medical school with a little OMM on the side, like max 6 hours a week and that is at the OMM heavy schools.

Is there not a set standard of how many hours a school teaches OMM? Also wondering if you had any schools in mind that are OMM heavy. Really interested on the topic and trying to get the most exposure to OMM while in medical school

 

[samac]

If you know how to do cervical HVLA correctly it can be one of the quickest ways to deal with a sore neck. I had a classmate do it to me a few times, and I've done it to other people. Use flexion, don't use excessive force m, and don't use it on people contraindicated and it isn't a huge deal.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Is there not a set standard of how many hours a school teaches OMM? Also wondering if you had any schools in mind that are OMM heavy. Really interested on the topic and trying to get the most exposure to OMM while in medical school

Just like any other part of the curriculum, every school varies. Western and KCOM are schools that come to mind as more OMM centric. I’m sure there are others but they aren’t coming to my head right now

 

[UTsksk]

My friend gave me a headache while doing CV4 decompression. The OMM doc just told me to lie down. Went away after a few minutes.

No big deal. Was worried someone would screw up my neck or I would hurt someone else, you get used to it. Start getting requests to treat people in the library if they know you're competent.

 

[Siggy]

Feel free to enlighten me on how quickly twisting someone's neck isn't dangerous or reckless.

Well... I routinely prescribe rat poison to my patients (well... ok... as the NOACs become cheaper, less people need rat poison).