AOA IM Residencies

[aDOdoctor]

I've tried searching for a topic similar to this but there is very little discussion.

This is for those who are either in or have knowledge of some decent AOA IM residencies that have access to fellowships, mainly pulm/critical care or just critical care.

ACGME residencies tend to be more well-known so they are easier to research, but I'd like to get some information on the AOA side.

Some AOA residencies:
Largo Medical
Broward Medical
Palmetto
Larkin
Geisinger in Danville, PA
Kennedy at Rowan
Aria Health
Corpus Christi
Swedish Covenant

If there are any others I haven't listed, feel free to add, please. Also for those who are in the know: How competitive is critical care? In case I end up in a residency that does not offer this fellowship, what is the likelihood I can apply and get in somewhere that doesn't know me?

Thanks in advance!

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[deleted392989]

I can speak for several of these programs based on my experiences this year.

Largo is a great program. The residents were very laid back, friendly, and get along with each other pretty well. Fellowships prefer in-house. It's near Clearwater beach, Tampa, Orlando, Siesta Keys, etc... so lots of fun things to do nearby! Cafeteria food is actually pretty good. You need to do an audition rotation here to be considered for an interview. Residents' feedback is weighed very heavily here and they have a lot of input on which OMS IV's they liked or not when they make their rank list. Their scheduling for the year is the wonkiest schedule that I've ever seen but not in a completely bad way.

Geisinger is another beast itself. The hospital is beautiful and very up-to-date in terms of technology (i.e. T.U.G robots, youtube it!). They also prefer heavily in-house for fellowship. Geisinger has a very solid reputation in the northeast so matching into fellowships in the Philly/NY/etc areas is doable (i.e. rheum at UPENN this year). However, it is literally located in the middle of nowhere, like 2-3 hours out of Philly. There is not much to do in the immediate area unless you drive 30+ minutes for some restaurants, shopping, etc. People here are very laid back, chill, friendly. Chief residents this year are awesome guys too.

Corpus Christi is another program that I'm vaguely familiar with. Several of my friends matched here this year but the program did not fill. ** correction ** They have a cardiology fellowship and will be soon starting a pulm/crit fellowship.

Critical care by itself is a moderately competitive fellowship. Most fellowships will be pulm/crit and there are not many CC fellowships. If you are at a DO residency, you really need to find one that has an in-house CC or pulm/crit fellowship for the best chances of matching there.

Personally, I would rank the following DO programs with fellowships in these tiers for competitiveness in getting into their IM program and their reputation:
1. Advocate Lutheran General, MSU (Sparrow), Geisinger, Largo, UCONN, Pennsylvania Hospital, Botsford
2. Palmetto, Lankenau, Rowansom, Plaza Medical Center, Lehigh Valley
3. Larkin, Coney Island, Corpus Christi, Nassau, Arnot Ogden

Not really familiar with programs in the west so I can't comment on them.

 

[smile33]

I can speak for several of these programs based on my experiences this year.

Largo is a great program. The residents were very laid back, friendly, and get along with each other pretty well. Fellowships prefer in-house. It's near Clearwater beach, Tampa, Orlando, Siesta Keys, etc... so lots of fun things to do nearby! Cafeteria food is actually pretty good. You need to do an audition rotation here to be considered for an interview. Residents' feedback is weighed very heavily here and they have a lot of input on which OMS IV's they liked or not when they make their rank list. Their scheduling for the year is the wonkiest schedule that I've ever seen but not in a completely bad way.

Geisinger is another beast itself. The hospital is beautiful and very up-to-date in terms of technology (i.e. T.U.G robots, youtube it!). They also prefer heavily in-house for fellowship. Geisinger has a very solid reputation in the northeast so matching into fellowships in the Philly/NY/etc areas is doable (i.e. rheum at UPENN this year). However, it is literally located in the middle of nowhere, like 2-3 hours out of Philly. There is not much to do in the immediate area unless you drive 30+ minutes for some restaurants, shopping, etc. People here are very laid back, chill, friendly. Chief residents this year are awesome guys too.

Corpus Christi is another program that I'm vaguely familiar with. Several of my friends matched here this year but the program did not fill. I believe they are starting a cardiology fellowship, but not sure about other fellowships.

Critical care by itself is a moderately competitive fellowship. Most fellowships will be pulm/crit and there are not many CC fellowships. If you are at a DO residency, you really need to find one that has an in-house CC or pulm/crit fellowship for the best chances of matching there.

Personally, I would rank the following DO programs with fellowships in these tiers for competitiveness in getting into their IM program and their reputation:
1. Advocate Lutheran General, MSU (Sparrow), Geisinger, Largo, UCONN, Pennsylvania Hospital, Botsford
2. Palmetto, Lankenau, Rowansom, Plaza Medical Center, Lehigh Valley
3. Larkin, Coney Island, Corpus Christi, Nassau, Arnot Ogden

Not really familiar with programs in the west so I can't comment on them.

What makes a wonky schedule for Largo?

 

[deleted392989]

What makes a wonky schedule for Largo?

When I saw the schedule, residents had 1 week blocks of night float interspersed throughout the year. Normally, night float is scheduled in a month long block or 2 week blocks at least. I haven't seen any other program schedule night float the way they do... Other than that, I wouldn't say it's that different vs a traditional curriculum.

 

[Siggy]

When I saw the schedule, residents had 1 week blocks of night float interspersed throughout the year. Normally, night float is scheduled in a month long block or 2 week blocks at least. I haven't seen any other program schedule night float the way they do... Other than that, I wouldn't say it's that different vs a traditional curriculum.

Arrowhead (California) does 1 week night floats as well, but it's the individual IM teams that rotate through night float, so if you're on IM you're guaranteed 1 night float week that month.

 

[aDOdoctor]

I can speak for several of these programs based on my experiences this year.

mashimaroinc, thank you for the very thorough reply. I'm looking forward to try and rotate at a few of those spots to try and get my foot in the door. Since amount of time to do audition rotations is limited and I can't go to all of them in the short duration of time, what type of board scores are these places looking at for students who haven't rotated at their hospital?

This is just my insecurity talking at this point, but I've been wondering what is expected of students in 4th year? Admittedly I've forgotten a lot of information since COMLEX, and I'm worried that could make me look "bad." Once I look it up I remember learning about it and can retain it better, but I don't know if programs want someone who can recall facts on the fly or what, and I don't know 100% what it takes to "impress" programs.

 

[deleted392989]

mashimaroinc, thank you for the very thorough reply. I'm looking forward to try and rotate at a few of those spots to try and get my foot in the door. Since amount of time to do audition rotations is limited and I can't go to all of them in the short duration of time, what type of board scores are these places looking at for students who haven't rotated at their hospital?

This is just my insecurity talking at this point, but I've been wondering what is expected of students in 4th year? Admittedly I've forgotten a lot of information since COMLEX, and I'm worried that could make me look "bad." Once I look it up I remember learning about it and can retain it better, but I don't know if programs want someone who can recall facts on the fly or what, and I don't know 100% what it takes to "impress" programs.

If you haven't rotated there, they are usually looking for >500. Some of these programs won't interview you unless you did an audition rotation there. If you are really limited in time, scheduling 2 week auditions is better than nothing. However, you won't really get enough facetime with the residents vs. someone who did a 4 week audition that did as well as you.

As a 4th year, the minimum expectations are to come early for morning sign-out, pre-round on your patients, write up your SOAP notes, attend morning conference, present your patients to the attending, notify the resident/intern whenever essential lab/imaging results come back, prepare a presentation on a topic if asked to do so. Honestly, at these programs, the residents/interns are pretty laid back and know 4th years should be enjoying 4th year so they will let you go early sometimes. If you want to go the extra mile, you can take call overnight, offer to round on more patients, stay later in the day, answer questions correctly in morning report/noon conference without coming off as a gunner (I know, lol), get as much facetime and interaction with the PDs/aPDs without being too annoying.

You should always schedule your 1st audition rotation at a place that isn't your top choice. You are going to make mistakes and not come off as an all-star, but you will learn A LOT. That will help prepare you for your subsequent auditions and make you look even better than other students who are auditioning there.

 

[JT19]

If you haven't rotated there, they are usually looking for >500. Some of these programs won't interview you unless you did an audition rotation there. If you are really limited in time, scheduling 2 week auditions is better than nothing. However, you won't really get enough facetime with the residents vs. someone who did a 4 week audition that did as well as you.

As a 4th year, the minimum expectations are to come early for morning sign-out, pre-round on your patients, write up your SOAP notes, attend morning conference, present your patients to the attending, notify the resident/intern whenever essential lab/imaging results come back, prepare a presentation on a topic if asked to do so. Honestly, at these programs, the residents/interns are pretty laid back and know 4th years should be enjoying 4th year so they will let you go early sometimes. If you want to go the extra mile, you can take call overnight, offer to round on more patients, stay later in the day, answer questions correctly in morning report/noon conference without coming off as a gunner (I know, lol), get as much facetime and interaction with the PDs/aPDs without being too annoying.

You should always schedule your 1st audition rotation at a place that isn't your top choice. You are going to make mistakes and not come off as an all-star, but you will learn A LOT. That will help prepare you for your subsequent auditions and make you look even better than other students who are auditioning there.

Are you saying that most AOA programs are looking for >500 if you didn't audition there, or only the more competitive ones?

 

[deleted392989]

Are you saying that most AOA programs are looking for >500 if you didn't audition there, or only the more competitive ones?

The more competitive ones, which tend to be programs with competitive in house fellowships or have a great reputation in their area (i.e PCOM). Some of these programs, you can get away without doing an audition and still get an interview if your board scores are >500.

 

[Captain DO]

[QUOTE="mashimaroinc, post: 17424509, member: 392989"

Corpus Christi is another program that I'm vaguely familiar with. Several of my friends matched here this year but the program did not fill. I believe they are starting a cardiology fellowship, but not sure about other fellowships.

[/QUOTE]

They had 13 spots but only 7 matched... Seems odd for any program to barely fill half of their spots...How accurate is the match data?
If its true, what does that mean? The program is weak? Most people used it as a backup and ended up matching elsewhere? They just didn't rank/interview many people?

 

[deleted392989]

They had 13 spots but only 7 matched... Seems odd for any program to barely fill half of their spots...How accurate is the match data?
If its true, what does that mean? The program is weak? Most people used it as a backup and ended up matching elsewhere? They just didn't rank/interview many people?

As a general rule, when a program doesn't fill all of their spots, it can mean several things, including

1. Program did not interview/rank enough applicants
2. Program was not desirable enough to be ranked highly by applicants

Match data is accurate.

 

[SnowDoggy44]

Parkview Medical Center in Pueblo, CO has Pulm-CC, GI, and H&Palliative Care fellowships.
The IM program has filled all 10 positions for at least the last two years I know. It is in pre-accredited status with the ACGME and all the fellowships intend to apply as well. It is a larger hospital at 350 beds and treats much of the pathology and transfers from SE Colorado. I found it to be a very attractive program when I interviewed there.
http://www.parkviewmc.com/medical-education/internal-medicine-residency/

 

[DrDO2017]

Anyone on here have experience with Broward Health's IM program?

 

[aDOdoctor]

If you haven't rotated there, they are usually looking for >500. Some of these programs won't interview you unless you did an audition rotation there. If you are really limited in time, scheduling 2 week auditions is better than nothing. However, you won't really get enough facetime with the residents vs. someone who did a 4 week audition that did as well as you.

As a 4th year, the minimum expectations are to come early for morning sign-out, pre-round on your patients, write up your SOAP notes, attend morning conference, present your patients to the attending, notify the resident/intern whenever essential lab/imaging results come back, prepare a presentation on a topic if asked to do so. Honestly, at these programs, the residents/interns are pretty laid back and know 4th years should be enjoying 4th year so they will let you go early sometimes. If you want to go the extra mile, you can take call overnight, offer to round on more patients, stay later in the day, answer questions correctly in morning report/noon conference without coming off as a gunner (I know, lol), get as much facetime and interaction with the PDs/aPDs without being too annoying.

You should always schedule your 1st audition rotation at a place that isn't your top choice. You are going to make mistakes and not come off as an all-star, but you will learn A LOT. That will help prepare you for your subsequent auditions and make you look even better than other students who are auditioning there.

Sounds like great advice and I really appreciate it. I was considering doing a sub-I too, and with the timing of when 4th year starts, board studying, and doing a warm-up audition, I probably won't be able to do that until September. Or do you think I should just go for the sub-I right in the beginning? It's at a location I would love to be at, so I'm wary of doing it so early and flubbing up and messing up any chances of getting in.

 

[deleted392989]

Sounds like great advice and I really appreciate it. I was considering doing a sub-I too, and with the timing of when 4th year starts, board studying, and doing a warm-up audition, I probably won't be able to do that until September. Or do you think I should just go for the sub-I right in the beginning? It's at a location I would love to be at, so I'm wary of doing it so early and flubbing up and messing up any chances of getting in.

Honestly, a sub-I is just a harder version of your 3rd year IM rotation. The only main differences are taking more call, rounding on more patients (4-5 usually), putting in orders that need to be cosigned anyways, doing a case presentation at morning report/grand rounds/etc, and taking an exam at the end (not sure if all places do this). If you feel rusty, go ahead and do a warm-up IM rotation before your sub-I. I would definitely get the sub-I done by July/August so you can get a letter from that rotation and your grade on your transcript before you apply for residencies.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

I've tried searching for a topic similar to this but there is very little discussion.

This is for those who are either in or have knowledge of some decent AOA IM residencies that have access to fellowships, mainly pulm/critical care or just critical care.

ACGME residencies tend to be more well-known so they are easier to research, but I'd like to get some information on the AOA side.

Some AOA residencies:
Largo Medical
Broward Medical
Palmetto
Larkin
Geisinger in Danville, PA
Kennedy at Rowan
Aria Health
Corpus Christi
Swedish Covenant

If there are any others I haven't listed, feel free to add, please. Also for those who are in the know: How competitive is critical care? In case I end up in a residency that does not offer this fellowship, what is the likelihood I can apply and get in somewhere that doesn't know me?

Thanks in advance!

As a DO in an academic ACGME IM program, I'll make some points here:

- Go to an ACGME program. I repeat - go to an ACGME program. I graduated from Rowan (then UMDNJ), and to be blunt - their IM program was total crap compared to the place I am now, and supposedly it's 'one of the best' DO IM progs. I'd not be half the doc I am now if I'd gone there. Go ACGME...do not go DO, do not pass go, do not collect $200. Even if you only took COMLEX, go ACGME. Even if you have some bizarre fetish for OMM, go ACGME. Solid COMLEX scores can get you into several good academic ACGME IM progs. There is no good way to mitigate bad training.

- Of the programs you listed, Geisinger is decent (and dually accredited, IIRC). I know people who rotated @ Swedish Covenant, and it did not sound good at all. I've also never heard anything good about Largo outside of this thread, so you may want to take the above poster's thoughts with a grain of salt.

 

[Mattinthehat250]

As a DO in an academic ACGME IM program, I'll make some points here:

- Go to an ACGME program. I repeat - go to an ACGME program. I graduated from Rowan (then UMDNJ), and to be blunt - their IM program was total crap compared to the place I am now, and supposedly it's 'one of the best' DO IM progs. I'd not be half the doc I am now if I'd gone there. Go ACGME...do not go DO, do not pass go, do not collect $200. Even if you only took COMLEX, go ACGME. Even if you have some bizarre fetish for OMM, go ACGME. Solid COMLEX scores can get you into several good academic ACGME IM progs. There is no good way to mitigate bad training.

- Of the programs you listed, Geisinger is decent (and dually accredited, IIRC). I know people who rotated @ Swedish Covenant, and it did not sound good at all. I've also never heard anything good about Largo outside of this thread, so you may want to take the above poster's thoughts with a grain of salt.

-Can you clarify what it was exactly that made that program bad?
-What kind of COMLEX score would a DO need to feel comfortable going into the ACGME match?

 

[deleted392989]

As a DO in an academic ACGME IM program, I'll make some points here:

- Go to an ACGME program. I repeat - go to an ACGME program. I graduated from Rowan (then UMDNJ), and to be blunt - their IM program was total crap compared to the place I am now, and supposedly it's 'one of the best' DO IM progs. I'd not be half the doc I am now if I'd gone there. Go ACGME...do not go DO, do not pass go, do not collect $200. Even if you only took COMLEX, go ACGME. Even if you have some bizarre fetish for OMM, go ACGME. Solid COMLEX scores can get you into several good academic ACGME IM progs. There is no good way to mitigate bad training.

- Of the programs you listed, Geisinger is decent (and dually accredited, IIRC). I know people who rotated @ Swedish Covenant, and it did not sound good at all. I've also never heard anything good about Largo outside of this thread, so you may want to take the above poster's thoughts with a grain of salt.

Obviously ACGME programs are going to be better than AOA programs. In this cycle, having a comlex >500 can get you interviews at low tier university programs based on my own personal experience. Personally, I decided to go the md match this year. However, if youre in the position where you cant be choosy and have to go to DO programs, then dont think youre getting an overly inferior education by doing so. Try out the programs youre
most interested in and go from there!

 

[smile33]

As a DO in an academic ACGME IM program, I'll make some points here:

- Go to an ACGME program. I repeat - go to an ACGME program. I graduated from Rowan (then UMDNJ), and to be blunt - their IM program was total crap compared to the place I am now, and supposedly it's 'one of the best' DO IM progs. I'd not be half the doc I am now if I'd gone there. Go ACGME...do not go DO, do not pass go, do not collect $200. Even if you only took COMLEX, go ACGME. Even if you have some bizarre fetish for OMM, go ACGME. Solid COMLEX scores can get you into several good academic ACGME IM progs. There is no good way to mitigate bad training.

- Of the programs you listed, Geisinger is decent (and dually accredited, IIRC). I know people who rotated @ Swedish Covenant, and it did not sound good at all. I've also never heard anything good about Largo outside of this thread, so you may want to take the above poster's thoughts with a grain of salt.

What makes AOA site training so bad?

 

[ortnakas]

Obviously ACGME programs are going to be better than AOA programs. In this cycle, having a comlex >500 can get you interviews at low tier university programs based on my own personal experience. Personally, I decided to go the md match this year. However, if youre in the position where you cant be choosy and have to go to DO programs, then dont think youre getting an overly inferior education by doing so. Try out the programs youre
most interested in and go from there!

What kind of COMLEX/USMLE/etc does one need to afford to be choosy?

 

[deleted392989]

What kind of COMLEX/USMLE/etc does one need to afford to be choosy?

From my classmates' experiences this year, COMLEX <500 will rule you out of most MD university programs. You will still have a chance at MD community programs though.
COMLEX >500 is the step to getting your foot into the door for low-tier universities. >600 will get you looks at more places. But honestly, most MD universities will prefer the USMLE. USMLE >240 is a good place to be, especially for mid-tier universities.

 

[Stedari]

The same things that are important in any industry are important in residency training. Think of training like a dining experience and Michelin star ratings. A highly rated restaurant or residency program will consistently put out a phenomenal product. Sure, your no-name restaurant down the street has a dish you like but no one can speak to it. Too few people can vouch for their process or product. Furthermore, there is so much less accountability because what can you really expect from a hole-in-the-wall.

We are talking about the training that needs to prepare you as a practicing physician. Invest in a program that you know offers that. Take pride in your training and know you did everything to get the highest level possible, for yourself and your patients. As a DO I absolutely can't understand choosing an AOA residency. Go for the real deal.

 

[Hectorz]

Hey, forgive me if this is the wrong forum to post this, but I just made an account. If this belongs somewhere else, just let me know.

I'm a 3rd year DO student who probably fits just about average/below average in terms of grades and accolades. I'm looking into residencies in the Pa/Ny region, but I'm having trouble finding the programs that are more "realistic" for me to set my sights on. Are there any good forum posts or websites that rate the more average programs? It seems easy to find top programs but tough to find the weaker ones 😛

 

[gutonc]

Merged with the appropriately titled "AOA IM Residencies" thread. Carry on.

 

[shapeshifter13]

Parkview Medical Center in Pueblo, CO has Pulm-CC, GI, and H&Palliative Care fellowships.
The IM program has filled all 10 positions for at least the last two years I know. It is in pre-accredited status with the ACGME and all the fellowships intend to apply as well. It is a larger hospital at 350 beds and treats much of the pathology and transfers from SE Colorado. I found it to be a very attractive program when I interviewed there.


Hi

I am interviewing at Parkview soon. Do the residents seem pretty happy there?

 

[IM APD]

We

As a DO in an academic ACGME IM program, I'll make some points here:

- Go to an ACGME program. I repeat - go to an ACGME program. I graduated from Rowan (then UMDNJ), and to be blunt - their IM program was total crap compared to the place I am now, and supposedly it's 'one of the best' DO IM progs. I'd not be half the doc I am now if I'd gone there. Go ACGME...do not go DO, do not pass go, do not collect $200. Even if you only took COMLEX, go ACGME. Even if you have some bizarre fetish for OMM, go ACGME. Solid COMLEX scores can get you into several good academic ACGME IM progs. There is no good way to mitigate bad training.

- Of the programs you listed, Geisinger is decent (and dually accredited, IIRC). I know people who rotated @ Swedish Covenant, and it did not sound good at all. I've also never heard anything good about Largo outside of this thread, so you may want to take the above poster's thoughts with a grain of salt.

To the OP, I wouldn't take any one individuals perspective as accurate. No disrespect to dozitgetchahi, but they have had a poor experience at their home DO program and a good experience at their current allopathic program. No further generalities can or should be drawn from their very narrow window of experience. Most DO programs function in a capacity similar to an allopathic community program. A small core group of faculty that largely teach as an adjunct to their own practice. Historically, many DO programs taught 'by doing'. Patient caps were not as adhered to and right or wrong, there was a lot more autonomy for the residents as they were integral parts of whichever specific hospital they were working in. Not every DO program fits this model, but many do. I too, trained at a well established allopathic program, but they too have their downsides. Many large, academic residencies, are taught by both core as well as non-core faculty... Meaning, there were times that my team was led by faculty that was 80% research but had to maintain at least 2 clinical service months as a part of their academic appointment. An argument could be made that this is less than ideal. Programs with many fellowships tend to give the fellows first dibs on procedures. This isn't the case where only an IM residency exists. Again, pros and cons to this. I remember as an intern, I hated the days when I hit my 10 patient cap. I now work with colleagues who trained years before me at DO programs and they remember seeing upwards of 25-30pts on their own. They continue to needle me about being "soft" in that regard.

All I'm saying is, not everyone learns the same way. You may go to Harvard and be taught by a Nobel Laureate who is independently brilliant but can't teach worth a darn. Is that student better off than the student who goes to the state school and has a grad assistant that makes the material come alive and much more easily digestible? Who knows. DO programs have been "weaker" historically b/c they are less likely to have been associated with large, universities and thus have had more variation amongst themselves. There are many reasons to choose an allopathic IM program, but it is ignorant to presume that in general, an osteopathic residency experience is inferior across the board.