AOA president speaks on Rocky Vista/For Profit schools

[djnels01]

Sorry to have to admit my ignorance, but I have looked around the internet and can't find any information of what happened in the Calfornia'esque split in 1965. Can someone please educate me? Thanks

Long story short: DOs paid $ for an MD degree.

"In the 1960s in California, the American Medical Association (AMA) spent nearly $8 million to end the practice of osteopathy in the state. With considerable financial support from the AMA, the state passed a state wide referendum (Proposition 22) ending the practice of osteopathic medicine in California. California D.O.s were granted the M.D. degree in exchange for paying $65 and attending a short seminar. The College of Osteopathic Physicians and Surgeons became the University of California, Irvine, College of Medicine. However, the decision proved quite controversial. In 1974, after protest and lobbying by a group of influential and prominent D.O.s, the California Supreme Court ruled that licensing of D.O.s in that state must be resumed."

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[jp104]

Sorry to have to admit my ignorance, but I have looked around the internet and can't find any information of what happened in the Calfornia'esque split in 1965. Can someone please educate me? Thanks

I actually got the year wrong It was 1962 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osteopathic#1962.2C_California).

Basically, I am wondering how long it will be before younger DOs really break away from the AOA and the establishment. Like I said in my earlier post, just a hypothetical

 

[4Doc4]

Thank for the info.

 

[Taurus]

Long story short: DOs paid $ for an MD degree.

"In the 1960s in California, the American Medical Association (AMA) spent nearly $8 million to end the practice of osteopathy in the state. With considerable financial support from the AMA, the state passed a state wide referendum (Proposition 22) ending the practice of osteopathic medicine in California. California D.O.s were granted the M.D. degree in exchange for paying $65 and attending a short seminar. The College of Osteopathic Physicians and Surgeons became the University of California, Irvine, College of Medicine. However, the decision proved quite controversial. In 1974, after protest and lobbying by a group of influential and prominent D.O.s, the California Supreme Court ruled that licensing of D.O.s in that state must be resumed."

If the DO's were smart back then, they would have used the Cali ruling to convert DO's to MD's in all states instead of challenging it. It would have nicely unified the entire medical profession under one umbrella.

How many DO's today would prefer to have MD behind their names instead of DO? It's unfortunate that DO's today have to still explain that DO's are physicians not only to patients but to nurses and others on the healthcare team.

 

[jp104]

If the DO's were smart back then, they would have used the Cali ruling to convert DO's to MD's in all states instead of challenging it. It would have nicely unified the entire medical profession under one umbrella.

How many DO's today would prefer to have MD behind their names instead of DO? It's unfortunate that DO's today have to still explain that DO's are physicians not only to patients but to nurses and others on the healthcare team.

I actually didn't want to switch this to a degree change thread. The degree intitials don't matter to me as long as I am doing something that I love - practicing medicine.

My only reason for bringing up the Cali split was part of a hypothetical situation where the AOA policies has fed up enough of the younger generation of DOs such that they'd want to break off. Heck, they could form the AOA Extreme league and change the initials to DOX

I just see this approval of for profit education as one of those AOA mandated policies that could push people to break away.

 

[meister]

We'll only be weaker divided. The profession should unite to fight back against the expanding scope of mid-levels and others. We're fighting a losing battle and being divided doesn't do anybody any good. It should be obvious to DOs everywhere by now that the AOA isn't in it to fight the good fight, only for $$$$$$$$$$$$$. RVU is a symptom of a larger problem.

 

[Taurus]

The degree intitials don't matter to me as long as I am doing something that I love - practicing medicine.

This is a common problem with medical students. They have their heads stuck up their asses and are blissfully unaware of what's happening to medicine.

Did you see that survey that revealed 60% of primary care physicians would quit medicine if they could? I bet many of them were just as idealistic as you when they started out, but cold reality eventually set in and they hate what they do, not because of the medicine but because of the paperwork, hours, malpractice, etc -- things you can't control.

The problem with medical schools is that they hide these unpleasant details about a medical career and expect students to learn about it on their own. Unfortunately for some, they learn about it when it's too late.

Physicians need to understand that the profession is under siege and they need to develop the proper mentality to fight back and protect the profession. Otherwise, what's the point of spending minimum 7 years of grueling training and $200k in debt when you could have done it in less intensive 2 years, no MCAT or USMLE's, cheaper, and even online as with NP programs?

 

[scpod]

....Did you see that survey that revealed 60% of primary care physicians would quit medicine if they could? ....

You might want to re-read it, because it doesn't say that at all. It said, "60 percent of 12,000 general practice physicians [out of the 270,000 that they mailed it to] found they would not recommend medicine as a career."

That's nothing new because the last two generations of physicians have been saying the same thing.

As for those physicians actually getting out of medicne, the breakdown was "Eleven percent said they plan to retire and 13 percent said they plan to seek a job that removes them from active patient care. Twenty percent said they will cut back on patients seen and 10 percent plan to move to part-time work."

But, I don't see your statistic anywhere.

 

[Taurus]

You might want to re-read it, because it doesn't say that at all. It said, "60 percent of 12,000 general practice physicians [out of the 270,000 that they mailed it to] found they would not recommend medicine as a career."

That's nothing new because the last two generations of physicians have been saying the same thing.

As for those physicians actually getting out of medicne, the breakdown was "Eleven percent said they plan to retire and 13 percent said they plan to seek a job that removes them from active patient care. Twenty percent said they will cut back on patients seen and 10 percent plan to move to part-time work."

But, I don't see your statistic anywhere.

My interpretation would be that 60% would quit if they could. If you wouldn't recommend your own career choice, what does that say?

As to why 60% wouldn't outright quit medicine right now, how many of these physicians would be able to find non-medical jobs comparable in salary and benefits as their current ones? Not many. I've been out in the workforce for many years and I can tell you that it is very difficult to get $150k per year. Your clinical skills aren't that supervaluable or transferable in a pharm or management job. You would get a paycut and expose yourself to job insecurity. To me, the question that the survey is asking is, "Knowing what you know today, would you still have gone into medicine?" or "If I could pay you the same salary for a non-medical job, would you switch jobs?"

 

[scpod]

My interpretation would be that 60% would quit if they could. If you wouldn't recommend your own career choice, what does that say?

As to why 60% wouldn't outright quit medicine right now, how many of these physicians would be able to find non-medical jobs comparable in salary and benefits as their current ones? Not many. I've been out in the workforce for many years and I can tell you that it is very difficult to get $150k per year. Your clinical skills aren't that supervaluable or transferable in a pharm or management job. You would get a paycut and expose yourself to job insecurity. To me, the question that the survey is asking is, "Knowing what you know today, would you still have gone into medicine?" or "If I could pay you the same salary for a non-medical job, would you switch jobs?"

Well.... you can interpret it that way if you want to, but there's no logical basis for it. Do you think the statistic would be any different if you asked lawyers, or cabinet makers, or garbage collectors, or accountants? I'm 44 years old. I had a successful career before I turned to medicine. Most people I know wouldn't recommend their job to anyone else because Americans as a whole just aren't satisfied with anything.

Once you've surveyed the job satisfaction of everyone, get back to me and tell me that physicians are really all that different from anyone else.

 

[DrMidlife]

My interpretation would be that 60% would quit if they could. If you wouldn't recommend your own career choice, what does that say?

Most people I know wouldn't recommend their job to anyone else because Americans as a whole just aren't satisfied with anything.

I think that on average, WAY more than 60% of Americans (working to keep their health insurance and pay a mortgage and student loans and consumer debt) would quit if they could. People rarely work for the fun of it, and the fundamental problem with job satisfaction is the wacky expectations of the young. There's suckage, frequently extreme suckage, in EVERY high paying job. Doctors are not at all special in their suffering.

 

[jp104]

This is a common problem with medical students. They have their heads stuck up their asses and are blissfully unaware of what's happening to medicine.

Eaaaasy there tiger I agree 100% with you on pretty much everything. I care immensely about all of the issues in medicine wrt DNPs, for profit education, and other shenanigans.

However, what I meant by my post was that I didn't want to turn this particular thread into a whine post about why DOs should be called MDs by mentioning the cali split. That's a fight for another thread topic, and frankly I feel that there's more pressing issues to fight over such as OGME. With that said, this post is about RVU and for profit education. I just mentioned the cali split because of the BS that the AOA is pulling and the possiblity of a revolt in the rank and file. I do see your point about unifying both fields under one banner and that would certainly be an entertaining discussion.

Anyways, keep up the good fight! We need more med students who care about the future of medicine and aren't afraid to state their opinions.