AOA vs ACGME residencies

[docmayer]

Hello,

What is the difference between these two? I understand one is DO and the other MD, but really, AOA offers the same residencies as ACGME, so why would DO's want to match into an MD residency? Wouldn't it just be harder for them as DO to match into their residency choice through ACGME than it would be through AOA (ie. such as having to write both board exams, etc..)?

Any clarification is appreciated,

Thanks

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[aSagacious]

Not all residency programs were created equal. Some are based in larger hospitals, some in more preferable locations, some with more/less residents per cohort, etc. Further, it certainly can't hurt to provide oneself with better odds when applying for residency (though at a substantially increased time/effort).

 

[engin33ring]

Hello,

What is the difference between these two? I understand one is DO and the other MD, but really, AOA offers the same residencies as ACGME, so why would DO's want to match into an MD residency? Wouldn't it just be harder for them as DO to match into their residency choice through ACGME than it would be through AOA (ie. such as having to write both board exams, etc..)?

Any clarification is appreciated,

Thanks

Besides the points mentioned above, there aren't enough AOA residenciesto fill each class. applying for both increases your chances of matching.

 

[coughsyrup]

from another thread, but answers your question

It's not really about which one is 'better.' its about which will fit you as a physician in training better.

Some reasons DO's may choose ACGME spots:
1.There's more of them
2.They are more evenly distributed geographically
3.There are not nearly enough DO residency spots for all the graduates of DO schools
4.Some programs fit a doctor better regardless of it being MD/DO
5.More fellowship spots at MD residencies, if that's what you're into
6.You can diversify and train with MD's, I'm kind of attracted to the idea of reaching out of the DO bubble a bit
7.No AOA
8.There's more of them
9+ There are probably way more good reasons but I'm only a first year so I don't claim to know that much.

All of the points that have been mentioned are fairly accurate and I share the sentiment.

I'd just add that the comment regarding more opportunity for competitive specialties via the osteopathic route has its pros and cons.

Getting an ortho spot may be easy just going off the numbers, though it's still competitive, but you're limited to living in OH or MI, or a few other places. Additionally, specialties like orth essentially REQUIRE you to rotate & do audition rotations, and the spots are always sealed before match day even comes out. This kind of behind-closed-doors crap doesn't go on in the NRMP.

Specialties like rads and derm, however, are scarce, and though you may land a DO derm or rads spot with high COMLEX scores, your training won't necessarily be the equivalent of a big University based allo program, and some specialties simply NEED big volume University based experience (pathology being a perfect example).

I remember rotating at SunCoast Hospital in FL as a 3rd year. They had residency spots for gen surg, gas, IM, FP, and some others, but the place was pathetic. Just an example that you may have the opportunity to get a gen surg residency slot, but it may not offer the best training.

I like to tout the example of the guy who graduated top of my class & got a rad spot at a very good University based midwest program...first DO they ever accepted...the caveat being he was, of course, top of the class, and smoked the hell out of the USMLE (and COMLEX...like that mattered).

So I think the question comes down to what specialty you're actually going for, though you generally don't have this forsight as a pre-med applicant, and this also depends on the types of physicians that run the program you're applying to. Maybe the rads program at Ohio State is very DO friendly if you're a good enough applicant, but the program at U Wisc is anti DO. How bent are you on getting a good University based rads spot vs some community based osteopathic spot?

Allo programs are not hands down better than osteo programs, but for some specialties I think this is generally true.

You need to ask yourself, what kind of program are you looking for? If you're satisfied scraping the bottom of the barrel just to get in a specialty, at the expense of risking your education, you should rethink your plan. Not everyone can get a derm, rads, ENT, gas, etc, spot, and you shouldn't simply look at DO school as an easier way to get in a high demand specialty.

As a DO, it doesn't hurt to apply for both or just ACGME IF you're a strong candidate & are confident you'll get an ACGME spot.
Or, in cases such as psychiatry, or pathology (where there aren't any DO residencies), your decision has been made for you.

 

[docmayer]

from another thread, but answers your question

Great thank you. Do you know how 'hard' it is as a DO to get an ER residency or pediatrics, through both AOA and ACGME?

 

[costales]

Great thank you. Do you know how 'hard' it is as a DO to get an ER residency or pediatrics, through both AOA and ACGME?

There are lots of DOs in EM and peds. It's not hard if you study hard and do well in med school.

 

[willen101383]

Great thank you. Do you know how 'hard' it is as a DO to get an ER residency or pediatrics, through both AOA and ACGME?

EM is one of the quintessential DO friendly fields...although that MAY be changing as competition rises and people realize the benefits of shift work and hourly wages.

 

[NurWollen]

I've shadowed both and FP and an ENT that did AOA residencies... both are great docs. I'm sure there are some rotten egg AOA residencies out there, but only in SDNland are they all bad.

 

[GraceEuphoria]

From what I've gathered, peds is very commonly done via the ACGME route. Oppositely, most of what I hear from upperclassmen, faculty, etc involving surgery is to definitely pursue the DO route for residency. Not sure if others have heard this as well?

 

[NurWollen]

From what I've gathered, peds is very commonly done via the ACGME route. Oppositely, most of what I hear from upperclassmen, faculty, etc involving surgery is to definitely pursue the DO route for residency. Not sure if others have heard this as well?

I likewise met a general surgeon who did an AOA residency... he was able to log enough cases etc. that he is board certified by both the MD and DO boards.

 

[donkeykong1]

I likewise met a general surgeon who did an AOA residency... he was able to log enough cases etc. that he is board certified by both the MD and DO boards.

hmm..really? isn't the completion of an ACGME residency a pre-requisite for board certification by the ABS.

the only AOA accredited residency that you might want to avoid is in anesthesiology. a good number of places on the east coast and west coast require physicians to be board certified/eligible by the ABA. You wont be able to gain this status by doing AOA gas. you can check physician recruiting websites to confirm.

 

[NurWollen]

hmm..really? isn't the completion of an ACGME residency a pre-requisite for board certification by the ABS.

the only AOA accredited residency that you might want to avoid is in anesthesiology. a good number of places on the east coast and west coast require physicians to be board certified/eligible by the ABA. You wont be able to gain this status by doing AOA gas. you can check physician recruiting websites to confirm.

I thought so too... but then I met this guy. I wonder if anyone around here can shed some light...

 

[tkim]

I thought so too... but then I met this guy. I wonder if anyone around here can shed some light...

Was it ABMS - American Board of Medical Specialties, or ABPS - American Board of Physician Specialties. Big difference.

 

[coughsyrup]

hmm..really? isn't the completion of an ACGME residency a pre-requisite for board certification by the ABS.

the only AOA accredited residency that you might want to avoid is in anesthesiology. a good number of places on the east coast and west coast require physicians to be board certified/eligible by the ABA. You wont be able to gain this status by doing AOA gas. you can check physician recruiting websites to confirm.

+1. shadowed an anesthesiologist that said the exact same thing (about gas...not sure what he thinks about other specialties).

 

[Instatewaiter]

I've shadowed both and FP and an ENT that did AOA residencies... both are great docs. I'm sure there are some rotten egg AOA residencies out there, but only in SDNland are they all bad.

This is like me saying someone is a good rocket scientist.

 

[serimeri]

Sorry to drag up an old post…however, I was about to post a thread on a similar issue so I thought I would go ahead and first post my concerns here.

Given the joint accreditation system that will be coming out, do you guys anticipate training and opportunities at fellowships to increase?

As someone who has no USMLE score and a <500 COMLEX level 1 score, I was wondering, if the AOA programs will offer more spots in specialties such as Neurology and Internal Medicine?

Thanks

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

From my understanding, the spots that the AOA and ACGME have in place already exist, they are just basically going under "new management." I think any major increase in residency spots outside of the merger is dependent on government legislation, not AOA and ACGME.

 

[DocEspana]

From my understanding, the spots that the AOA and ACGME have in place already exist, they are just basically going under "new management." I think any major increase in residency spots outside of the merger is dependent on government legislation, not AOA and ACGME.

This is, basically, correct.

So to the question of which one to go into in the future?

Because they'll all be the same soon.

 

[hallowmann]

This is, basically, correct.

So to the question of which one to go into in the future?

Because they'll all be the same soon.

I believe I smelllellellellellellell what's cooking.

 

[GreyF0X]

If some AOA residencies are so bad and crappy then how do they get certified and allowed to train physicians?

 

[Jwalker]

If some AOA residencies are so bad and crappy then how do they get certified and allowed to train physicians?

They are not "bad" or "crappy". Just different. Some ACGME residencies place a large emphasis on more academic and research type things. Some AOA residencies are at community hospitals and rural places. And there's everything in between. Both produce equally competent physicians - that we as much know. Which is why the ACGME is extremely interested in how OPTI's work due to cost effectiveness.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

If some AOA residencies are so bad and crappy then how do they get certified and allowed to train physicians?

Well...thats the issue with AOA...they are very relaxed with their standards of residency curriculum in some residency areas/programs. Look at Derm and Optho for example. Then look at COCA and the expansion issues we are suffering. Our entire profession needs stronger oversight.

 

[GreyF0X]

They are not "bad" or "crappy". Just different. Some ACGME residencies place a large emphasis on more academic and research type things. Some AOA residencies are at community hospitals and rural places. And there's everything in between. Both produce equally competent physicians - that we as much know. Which is why the ACGME is extremely interested in how OPTI's work due to cost effectiveness.

Well...thats the issue with AOA...they are very relaxed with their standards of residency curriculum in some residency areas/programs. Look at Derm and Optho for example. Then look at COCA and the expansion issues we are suffering. Our entire profession needs stronger oversight.

Where do people find out how a program is "different" compared to another? Is there some sort of list where you can see which programs are available for a specific residency and judge them based on their funding and clinical exposure?

Hypothetically, lets say we have 2 D.O.s who match into an AOA and ACGME Derm residency, respectively. One completes it at a more "academic and research" oriented facility and the other at a "community and rural" setting facility, won't they be able to practice just the same after completing their boards?

 

[Dr. Zombie]

Where do people find out how a program is "different" compared to another? Is there some sort of list where you can see which programs are available for a specific residency and judge them based on their funding and clinical exposure?

Hypothetically, lets say we have 2 D.O.s who match into an AOA and ACGME Derm residency, respectively. One completes it at a more "academic and research" oriented facility and the other at a "community and rural" setting facility, won't they be able to practice just the same after completing their boards?

Academic/Research locations usually see a greater range of pathology, allowing the resident to really strengthen their knowledge base.

Community programs you'll see (in most cases) a narrower range by comparison.

For example New York Presbyterian has the Manhattan Internal Medicine program which is research/university based. It has the Queens program which is community based. There are instances where complex cases are forwarded from Queens to Manhattan (citation: an IM Queens resident).

Now, can they be able to practice the same? Legally, yes. Is there a probable chance the academic/university resident may have experience seeing more varied patients than the community? There's a probable chance, but definitely not a blanket statement.

 

[cliquesh]

Where do people find out how a program is "different" compared to another? Is there some sort of list where you can see which programs are available for a specific residency and judge them based on their funding and clinical exposure?

There is no list. The "best" residencies are, in general, at the "best" medical schools, which is basically determined by NIH funding. It's kind of stupid.

I personally used the number of in-house fellowships, where their recent graduates matched for fellowship, and, admittedly, the "prestige" of the program when constructing my match list.