PhD/PsyD APPIC internship match - internship site side

[thisisjustatest]

Just curious what the match looks like on the internship site side. For example, UCLA - Semel Institute for Neuroscience and Human Behavior interviewed 145 people for their 19 slots last year, which means they rank 7 people on each slot, roughly. For a site that is this top-notch, wouldn't they get whoever they rank first? If someone was ranked #6 or #7, there is pretty much no chance of matching, right? Does anyone have more insights?

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[WisNeuro]

Because there are many top-notch sites, and very strong applicants will generally be ranked highly at many of the ones that they apply to, and they may be looking for very specific training experiences, some of which may be better delivered at alternate sites. Also, just because someone gets interviewed, does not mean that they are ultimately ranked. IME we've generally not ranked a handful of people each year.

 

[thisisjustatest]

Because there are many top-notch sites, and very strong applicants will generally be ranked highly at many of the ones that they apply to, and they may be looking for very specific training experiences, some of which may be better delivered at alternate sites. Also, just because someone gets interviewed, does not mean that they are ultimately ranked. IME we've generally not ranked a handful of people each year.

What sites are comparable or better than UCLA?

 

[WisNeuro]

What sites are comparable or better than UCLA?

There is no definitive list, because "best" depends on what aspects of training or rotation types you are seeking.

 

[roryportman]

Wouldn't MGH be pretty top tier for any specialty? Brown too? Just the sense I gathered speaking to a bunch of people, though of course training area/speciality if you have one matters. I can see that MGH, Brown, UCLA would maybe not be ideal for less research oriented folks.

Another question for the internship DCT side - so.. how are horrible is having 1 or even 2 minor typos on internship application documents? Of course I'll try not to have any but with applying to at least 15 sites.. being human happens. Does it matter more if, say, noticeable on the cover letter and less somewhere else like middle of a CV? Maybe more competitive sites are more cutthroat while other sites are more lenient?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Typos aren't a big deal, but mentors and publications do matter more at more avg a s above sites.

 

[beantownpsych]

Wouldn't MGH be pretty top tier for any specialty? Brown too? Just the sense I gathered speaking to a bunch of people, though of course training area/speciality if you have one matters. I can see that MGH, Brown, UCLA would maybe not be ideal for less research oriented folks.

Another question for the internship DCT side - so.. how are horrible is having 1 or even 2 minor typos on internship application documents? Of course I'll try not to have any but with applying to at least 15 sites.. being human happens. Does it matter more if, say, noticeable on the cover letter and less somewhere else like middle of a CV? Maybe more competitive sites are more cutthroat while other sites are more lenient?

Depends on the year, but yes heavy research sites tend to match very, very high on their rank lists and do not rank all applicants that apply. Most individuals that interview are ranked, but there are always a few who aren't (they do something outrageous during the interview or clearly aren't prepared).

Minor typos don't matter. Seriously, haven't seen any faculty care about (or even notice?) a small typo and I've been on the admissions committee for multiple research-heavy AMCs. Just make sure to get the name of the school & training opportunities etc right. Bonus points if you spell the name of the research mentor/training director correctly (I mean really do try to get this right, but we've interviewed applicants who have flubbed this).

But for heavens sake make sure to turn off track changes (yes, this has happened and more than once) and no clipart or random artistic fonts!

 

[thisisjustatest]

UCLA internship website says " clinical experience is designated as the first priority, treatment, supervision, consultation, and assessment experiences are given priority in the assignment of the intern’s time. ". How is it a research-heavy site?

 

[AcronymAllergy]

UCLA internship website says " clinical experience is designated as the first priority, treatment, supervision, consultation, and assessment experiences are given priority in the assignment of the intern’s time. ". How is it a research-heavy site?

My take, although I have no directly experience with UCLA specifically--it just has a reputation of being research-heavy. The internship year is universally intended to be a clinical year first and foremost, so every site is going to prioritize clinical work and experience. But some sites are better at ensuring interns are also able to participate in research (and may have higher requirements for such), and I suspect UCLA is one of those sites.

 

[summerbabe]

How is it a research-heavy site?

There are plenty of internship sites where there is zero (or close to zero) possibility of engaging in research even if you are begging for it and you're willing to use 100% personal time to do that work.

So any site that has active research rotation options/protected time for research and where research is encouraged or emphasized/expected would be considered research-heavy in my book.

 

[futureapppsy2]

There are plenty of internship sites where there is zero (or close to zero) possibility of engaging in research even if you are begging for it and you're willing to use 100% personal time to do that work.

So any site that has active research rotation options/protected time for research and where research is encouraged or emphasized/expected would be considered research-heavy in my book.

+1

This article addresses this issue, using survey data from internship TDs:
Lund, E. M., Bouchard, L. M., & Thomas, K. B. (2016). Publication productivity of professional psychology internship applicants: An in-depth analysis of APPIC survey data. Training and Education in Professional Psychology, 10(1), 54–60. https://doi.org/10.1037/tep0000105

 

[loveroflinehanandresick]

+1

This article addresses this issue, using survey data from internship TDs:
Lund, E. M., Bouchard, L. M., & Thomas, K. B. (2016). Publication productivity of professional psychology internship applicants: An in-depth analysis of APPIC survey data. Training and Education in Professional Psychology, 10(1), 54–60. https://doi.org/10.1037/tep0000105

Super helpful! Thanks so much!

 

[thisisjustatest]

+1

This article addresses this issue, using survey data from internship TDs:
Lund, E. M., Bouchard, L. M., & Thomas, K. B. (2016). Publication productivity of professional psychology internship applicants: An in-depth analysis of APPIC survey data. Training and Education in Professional Psychology, 10(1), 54–60. https://doi.org/10.1037/tep0000105

If that's the case, why do so many internships insist they are scientist-practitioner model. Some S-P model internships don't even have an IRB or IRB is too hard to pass within a year.

 

[WisNeuro]

If that's the case, why do so many internships insist they are scientist-practitioner model. Some S-P model internships don't even have an IRB or IRB is too hard to pass within a year.

What specifically, are you claiming is not consistent with the Boulder Model?

 

[thisisjustatest]

What specifically, are you claiming is not consistent with the Boulder Model?

Does Boulder Model emphasize research contribution? That means producing publishable manuscripts during an internship, right?

 

[WisNeuro]

Does Boulder Model emphasize research contribution? That means producing publishable manuscripts during an internship, right?

It would probably be more accurate to say that it emphasizes integration of empirical, scientifically-based clinical research into clinical work. Among other core tenets.

 

[thisisjustatest]

It would probably be more accurate to say that it emphasizes integration of empirical, scientifically-based clinical research into clinical work. Among other core tenets.

I think this discussion will actually help with my internship interviews. I appreciate it.
What I learned about the difference between scholar-prac and scientist-prac model is that scholar prac is mainly a consumer of research and they try to integrate research into clinical work. This seems very close to what you said about the Boulder Model. So I'm confused.

 

[WisNeuro]

I think this discussion will actually help with my internship interviews. I appreciate it.
What I learned about the difference between scholar-prac and scientist-prac model is that scholar prac is mainly a consumer of research and they try to integrate research into clinical work. This seems very close to what you said about the Boulder Model. So I'm confused.

In my experience the Vail model is much more...loosely defined, aside from claiming to want more clinically oriented coursework and didactics. In today's world, reputable PsyDs are pretty much the same thing as balanced or clinically oriented PhDs who still adhere to the Boulder Model. Call me biased, but the Boulder model at the doctoral level is largely an abject failure, as schools that wanted legitimacy embraced research training anyway over the years.

 

[jdawg2017]

IDK if this is derailing the thread, but does anyone else find the scholar-prac/scientist-prac/clinical-scientist pedagogy to be both massively confusing and a waste of time? Maybe I had an awful professor in my "scientist-practitioner" course, but I feel like we as psychologists and psych trainees are weirdly obsessed with assigning labels to things like this.

Also, to contribute to the discussion a bit r.e. my understanding of sites like UCLA, Brown, MGH, U Florida, Boston VA Healthcare System, etc. is that these sites obviously understand that it is extremely difficult to do an original research study during a full-time clinical year, but research thinking is heavily embedded into didactics, case conceptualization, and sometimes even dedicated research time (e.g., Boston VA gives interns 4-8 hours, I think). If you do any new project, you are likely working with a faculty member on their work or using an archival dataset to answer some question, and not designing your own study, getting an IRB, etc. I think these "research heavy" sites often retain trainees as post-docs, wherein on post-doc they have even more research time (sometimes 20-50% of effort on post-doc is research).

 

[thisisjustatest]

Any idea how internships view their applicants from a scholar-prac model if they are a scientist-prac model?

How do I justify despite a clinically focused program, I'm actually a good fit for a scientist-Prac internship since I have extra curriculum research experience/training?

Another thing is some internships don't even specify what model they are.

 

[thisisjustatest]

IDK if this is derailing the thread, but does anyone else find the scholar-prac/scientist-prac/clinical-scientist pedagogy to be both massively confusing and a waste of time? Maybe I had an awful professor in my "scientist-practitioner" course, but I feel like we as psychologists and psych trainees are weirdly obsessed with assigning labels to things like this.

Also, to contribute to the discussion a bit r.e. my understanding of sites like UCLA, Brown, MGH, U Florida, Boston VA Healthcare System, etc. is that these sites obviously understand that it is extremely difficult to do an original research study during a full-time clinical year, but research thinking is heavily embedded into didactics, case conceptualization, and sometimes even dedicated research time (e.g., Boston VA gives interns 4-8 hours, I think). If you do any new project, you are likely working with a faculty member on their work or using an archival dataset to answer some question, and not designing your own study, getting an IRB, etc. I think these "research heavy" sites often retain trainees as post-docs, wherein on post-doc they have even more research time (sometimes 20-50% of effort on post-doc is research).

You would think they retain interns for post-doc research, but UCLA only retained one intern from last year for post-doc research and that intern is a PsyD. Funny....

 

[beantownpsych]

Also, to contribute to the discussion a bit r.e. my understanding of sites like UCLA, Brown, MGH, U Florida, Boston VA Healthcare System, etc. is that these sites obviously understand that it is extremely difficult to do an original research study during a full-time clinical year, but research thinking is heavily embedded into didactics, case conceptualization, and sometimes even dedicated research time (e.g., Boston VA gives interns 4-8 hours, I think). If you do any new project, you are likely working with a faculty member on their work or using an archival dataset to answer some question, and not designing your own study, getting an IRB, etc. I think these "research heavy" sites often retain trainees as post-docs, wherein on post-doc they have even more research time (sometimes 20-50% of effort on post-doc is research).

This is correct. "Research heavy" internship sites provide some time for research but the primary focus is clinical. One of the main reasons research in applicants is highly valued is because those sites use internship as a feeder into their postdoc and eventually faculty positions. To be clear, you can't be a trainwreck clinically, but in terms of match research is highly valued because of hopes of retaining interns for postdoc

 

[beantownpsych]

How do I justify despite a clinically focused program, I'm actually a good fit for a scientist-Prac internship since I have extra curriculum research experience/training?

If your CV demonstrates it then you don't have to worry about it. The problem is that students who come from non-scientist practitioner/clinical science programs often have a different bar when it comes to research. Sometimes applicants think they have conducted a lot of research --and relative to their peers at their school they have-- but unfortunately it's not competitive compared to applicants from sci-prac or clin science programs. Thus, an applicant might think that their 4 posters and 1 middle-author book chapter demonstrate research acumen, but don't realize that people invited to interview all have multiple peer-reviewed publications/at least 1 FA in solid journals etc.

Note: my knowledge is only of research heavy and research medium AMCs/VAs. This may not generalize to other sci-prac internship sites.

 

[str63]

Any idea how internships view their applicants from a scholar-prac model if they are a scientist-prac model?

How do I justify despite a clinically focused program, I'm actually a good fit for a scientist-Prac internship since I have extra curriculum research experience/training?

Another thing is some internships don't even specify what model they are.

This is because it's no longer required by APA/Commission on Accreditation. This was changed several years ago. I don't recall the exact phrasing of why, but something along the lines of that it wasn't really useful, given that this is supposed to be a clinical year and we should all be using evidence-based interventions. Sites will care more about your experiences rather than what your program is labeled.

 

[hhhzzzaaa]

IDK if this is derailing the thread, but does anyone else find the scholar-prac/scientist-prac/clinical-scientist pedagogy to be both massively confusing and a waste of time? Maybe I had an awful professor in my "scientist-practitioner" course, but I feel like we as psychologists and psych trainees are weirdly obsessed with assigning labels to things like this.

I've always thought the same thing! I do not see the purpose of dissecting the possible differences in these labels when they are used inconsistently and do not seem to be categorically different from each other. I think sites are looking for a lot more than alignment with these buzzwords.

 

[thisisjustatest]

For those who have insights, do internships really try to retain interns for postdoc? I heard people were encouraged to seek postdoc elsewhere to get more diverse training.

 

[WisNeuro]

For those who have insights, do internships really try to retain interns for postdoc? I heard people were encouraged to seek postdoc elsewhere to get more diverse training.

Some do, some don't. It can also depend on the individual. For example, someone who did multiple practicum and internship at one site, may be advised to get broader training.

 

[hhhzzzaaa]

For those who have insights, do internships really try to retain interns for postdoc? I heard people were encouraged to seek postdoc elsewhere to get more diverse training.

I think it's very site- and training-goal dependent. YCSC requires interns to stay on for postdoc, and some internship sites do not even have postdocs. I think it also depends if you are applying to research or clinical postdocs. If the former, then staying on wouldn't really make sense with the exception of research-oriented internship programs like Brown.

 

[cara susanna]

Yes, as someone who applied to and matched to research-y internship sites (well, the one I matched to wasn't super research-y but it had protected research time), it's not really practical to expect to get research done in the internship year unless you are working on a project that's already been established or have pre-existing data to play around with. It's really about being in a place that will help you get connected to a solid research post doc, whether it's the same site or not.

 

[clinpsychperson2016]

Another question for the internship DCT side - so.. how are horrible is having 1 or even 2 minor typos on internship application documents? Of course I'll try not to have any but with applying to at least 15 sites.. being human happens. Does it matter more if, say, noticeable on the cover letter and less somewhere else like middle of a CV? Maybe more competitive sites are more cutthroat while other sites are more lenient?

I'm not a DCT, but I am reviewing internship applications for the first time this cycle. I have only my site for reference, so I cannot make a statement about leniency at less competitive sites. We do consider typos to be something that may count against the applicant. It wouldn't be a major issue for a solid application with no other notable concerns (e.g., good fit for site, cover letter specifically tailored to site, solid clinical experience), but a typo/typos may be a factor that tips the balance away from an internship invitation for another applicant with some concerns (e.g., not well articulated interests at this site, less variety in clinical experiences). In my view, they will be more likely to be noted in the first place on a cover letter or in an essay rather than a random spot in the CV. Naturally, one typo is less of an issue than multiple typos. Hope this helps!

 

[thisisjustatest]

Questions for those who have insight. What is your opinion on the former Argosy schools? and their former students? rating scale (1-5): 1) avoid them like plagues, 2) They are low average applicants 3) they are average applicants, but I'm open to looking closer at their individual qualities 4) They are above average applicants 5) They are outstanding applicants.

 

[WisNeuro]

Questions for those who have insight. What is your opinion on the former Argosy schools? and their former students? rating scale (1-5): 1) avoid them like plagues, 2) They are low average applicants 3) they are average applicants, but I'm open to looking closer at their individual qualities 4) They are above average applicants 5) They are outstanding applicants.

It somewhat depended on which Argosy Schools, some were...passable. So, my choices would be 1-2.

 

[beantownpsych]

Questions for those who have insight. What is your opinion on the former Argosy schools? and their former students? rating scale (1-5): 1) avoid them like plagues, 2) They are low average applicants 3) they are average applicants, but I'm open to looking closer at their individual qualities 4) They are above average applicants 5) They are outstanding applicants.

1. In the decade or so of ranking applicants, no one from those schools has ever been offered to interview. I'm not saying we wouldn't and we always at least give them a review, but the applications just aren't strong enough to be considered. It's not even a low average kind of thing -- more like in the range of 1-3 on a 10 point scale (10 being best). I know some internships that don't even review Argosy et al applications.

 

[thisisjustatest]

1. In the decade or so of ranking applicants, no one from those schools has ever been offered to interview. I'm not saying we wouldn't and we always at least give them a review, but the applications just aren't strong enough to be considered. It's not even a low average kind of thing -- more like in the range of 1-3 on a 10 point scale (10 being best). I know some internships that don't even review Argosy et al applications.

Are your referring to research area is not strong enough?

 

[thisisjustatest]

list of psyd program ranking: Psy.D Programs.org - Best Accredited Psychology Doctorate Degrees Near Me
one argosy, chicago school of PP and one aliant are in the top 20 while pepperdine is #24? And sites wont event look at argosy, chicago and aliant?

 

[Dazen]

list of psyd program ranking: Psy.D Programs.org - Best Accredited Psychology Doctorate Degrees Near Me
one argosy, chicago school of PP and one aliant are in the top 20 while pepperdine is #24? And sites wont event look at argosy, chicago and aliant?

I don't think it makes sense to rank PhD/PsyD programs generally because so much of "quality" comes down to your fit with your mentor, but even if I did put stock in it, I wouldn't say psydprograms.org is particularly reputable (it's their self-created list with minimally described metrics), given that it's not associated with any sort of professional organization. They also have some incorrect or misleading information about PhD vs PsyD (i.e. not saying that clinical work is part of a PhD when PhD students get as many if not more clinical hours than PsyD students, and the majority of PhD grads become full-time clinicians) that further decreases my trust.

 

[thisisjustatest]

I don't think it makes sense to rank PhD/PsyD programs generally because so much of "quality" comes down to your fit with your mentor, but even if I did put stock in it, I wouldn't say psydprograms.org is particularly reputable (it's their self-created list with minimally described metrics), given that it's not associated with any sort of professional organization. They also have some incorrect or misleading information about PhD vs PsyD (i.e. not saying that clinical work is part of a PhD when PhD students get as many if not more clinical hours than PsyD students, and the majority of PhD grads become full-time clinicians) that further decreases my trust.

what about this site: https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-health-schools/clinical-psychology-rankings

 

[Dazen]

what about this site: https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-health-schools/clinical-psychology-rankings

What is your goal in trying to find a ranking of doctoral clinical programs?

 

[thisisjustatest]

Sorry I digress.

What is your goal in trying to find a ranking of doctoral clinical programs?

The point is I suspect the reason programs rank relatively close to mine matched to internship sites I won’t even think about applying is because they are geographically close to those sites and had practicum there.

 

[summerbabe]

list of psyd program ranking: Psy.D Programs.org - Best Accredited Psychology Doctorate Degrees Near Me
one argosy, chicago school of PP and one aliant are in the top 20 while pepperdine is #24? And sites wont event look at argosy, chicago and aliant?

This website seems to exist to shill for their ‘sponsored programs’ and have zero problems parroting inaccurate PsyD talking points so I wouldn’t put any weight in their rankings.

what about this site: https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-health-schools/clinical-psychology-rankings

Formal ranking are irrelevant. Your CV matters the most. And an impressive CV (plus personal statement that highlights the CV) from Random Central State U should hold up just fine during a review process.

In addition to potentially negative previous training experiences, students from large cohort PsyD programs may not get considered for interviews at selective sites because they often have less impressive CVs in comparison to other applicants. I’ve only been minimally involved in selection processes but sometimes it’s really glaring.

programs rank relatively close to mine matched to internship sites I won’t even think about applying is because they are geographically close to those sites and had practicum there.

Some sites definitely like selecting students from programs where they have had previous successful trainees since training standards can vary widely and it sucks to get a trainee who isn’t ready to go from day one.

TDs and selection commitees aren’t working from these types of lists, even if they may have some internal guidelines based on previous experiences (e.g., solid program and feel confident about any student coming into internship, decent program, unsure/no data, avoid). Even then, your CV, personal statement, and APPI still very much matter.

 

[beantownpsych]

Are your referring to research area is not strong enough?

Really everything. Certainly the zero research is a problem but also: clinical experiences without known quality control/irrelevant clinical experience/non evidence-based treatment, little to no experience with semi-structured assessment (or any assessment), low number of supervision hours, poorly written essays, essays with questionable or strange content, cover letters that show a lack of understanding of the site, generic LoRs, CVs with clipart or filled with non-academic things (lifeguard, babysitter, working in retail, volunteering at a animal hospital), blog posts cited as academic publications, literature review as a dissertation etc....

To be clear, we review all applications (and I am on a break from doing so right now), but the differences between Argosy etc prgms and funded PhD/PsyD programs is typically HUGE.

 

[beantownpsych]

list of psyd program ranking: Psy.D Programs.org - Best Accredited Psychology Doctorate Degrees Near Me
one argosy, chicago school of PP and one aliant are in the top 20 while pepperdine is #24? And sites wont event look at argosy, chicago and aliant?

I dont know anyone who cares about or even knows formal program ranks-- I've never seen any of these sites linked before today -- though I imagine most of us have ideas in our mind about what programs produce the strongest applicants. For PsyD's you have Rutgers, Baylor and Stanford and then reputation declines significantly. Some PhD programs have the reputation of producing great researchers but not good clinicians, others have the reputation of being more balanced, and others are know to produce great clinicians (but w/ more variability in terms of research skillset).

 

[thisisjustatest]

Really everything. Certainly the zero research is a problem but also: clinical experiences without known quality control/irrelevant clinical experience/non evidence-based treatment, little to no experience with semi-structured assessment (or any assessment), low number of supervision hours, poorly written essays, essays with questionable or strange content, cover letters that show a lack of understanding of the site, generic LoRs, CVs with clipart or filled with non-academic things (lifeguard, babysitter, working in retail, volunteering at a animal hospital), blog posts cited as academic publications, literature review as a dissertation etc....

To be clear, we review all applications (and I am on a break from doing so right now), but the differences between Argosy etc prgms and funded PhD/PsyD programs is typically HUGE.

Clip art and babysitting are good ones 😆

 

[thisisjustatest]

I dont know anyone who cares about or even knows formal program ranks-- I've never seen any of these sites linked before today -- though I imagine most of us have ideas in our mind about what programs produce the strongest applicants. For PsyD's you have Rutgers, Baylor and Stanford and then reputation declines significantly. Some PhD programs have the reputation of producing great researchers but not good clinicians, others have the reputation of being more balanced, and others are know to produce great clinicians (but w/ more variability in terms of research skillset)

Curious about what is considered good research skillset. Could you give an example?

 

[beantownpsych]

Curious about what is considered good research skillset. Could you give an example?

Peer reviewed publications, ability to conduct own research-- designing a novel study, submitting IRB/relevant preregistrations, collecting, cleaning and analyzing data (a cross-sectional survey study on qualtrics does not count unless it's an extremely compelling question that has a robust and novel statistical method), grant/grant submissions, a dissertation that involves hypothesis testing (or if not, something that is data driven like machine learning) etc. Bonus points for novel/cutting edge methodology or bridging multiple disciplines. Triple bonus points if the grant is NIH/NSF or equivalent and is actually funded.

 

[thisisjustatest]

Peer reviewed publications, ability to conduct own research-- designing a novel study, submitting IRB/relevant preregistrations, collecting, cleaning and analyzing data (a cross-sectional survey study on qualtrics does not count unless it's an extremely compelling question that has a robust and novel statistical method), grant/grant submissions, a dissertation that involves hypothesis testing (or if not, something that is data driven like machine learning) etc. Bonus points for novel/cutting edge methodology or bridging multiple disciplines. Triple bonus points if the grant is NIH/NSF or equivalent and is actually funded.

Would intraindividual variability on neuropsych test administrations (cross sectional and longitudinal) considered a novel/cutting edge methodology?

 

[Uplift]

Hi everyone, I'm not sure if this is the best place for this question but I figured you might have some insight.
I'm wondering if anyone knows the likelihood of receiving an invite to interview after a "mass email" has already been sent to others. Is it safe to assume I'm out, or might I still hear something?

 

[WisNeuro]

Would intraindividual variability on neuropsych test administrations (cross sectional and longitudinal) considered a novel/cutting edge methodology?

Depends on where it's published/presented, most likely.

 

[WisNeuro]

Hi everyone, I'm not sure if this is the best place for this question but I figured you might have some insight.
I'm wondering if anyone knows the likelihood of receiving an invite to interview after a "mass email" has already been sent to others. Is it safe to assume I'm out, or might I still hear something?

It's variable. Sites treat this differently. Some sites have the TD send out things, some have an admin assistant do it. Some send out invites all at once, some do waves. I'd say there's a better chance than not that you didn't get an invite, but there's still a chance for a variety of reasons.

 

[thisisjustatest]

Anyone know if VA sites give veteran applicants interview/match priority?