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Backstory:
Like many others here, I am a reapplicant. I was sending an update to a medical school admissions office to let them know I got a new healthcare experience that I believed was relevant and that I wanted the to be aware of. In my eagerness, I made the rookie mistake of not attaching the file to the email. When I realized it a few minutes later, I frantically started composing an apology message with my attachment. While that was happening, I started getting these emails from a staff member at the admissions office. Clearly they weren't meant for me.

Screen Shot 2020-12-23 at 1.11.49 PM.png
I was so shocked at the two messages I just received I didn't know what to do. Then I noticed that I had a two missed phone calls from that same staff member. Additionally, I started receiving these "email recall" messages (I received 2 in total):

Screen Shot 2020-12-23 at 3.29.28 PM.png


Before I even knew what to think, I get this message (this was after I had sent an email and apologized for not including the attachment).



I decided to call her. I knew that anything said over the phone would be a "he said/she said" situation, but I still wanted to give her the benefit-of-the-doubt and hear what she had to say. Immediately, she said she wanted to talk because she realized the email she sent was "confusing". She then, without me prompting or asking, went through my file and talked about my potential saying "they like upward trends" and so on, as well as some of the more negative aspects of my application. This would have been really well appreciated if it was solicited advice. Instead, I just saw this as her attempt to appease me for what was a clear breach of applicant trust. The best part of this conversation was when I bluntly asked her if those emails were intended for someone other than myself. She then very adamantly said they were intended for me, not anyone else. She reiterated this. However, her email refers to me as "she". Why would anyone use a third-person pronoun when talking to that same individual? It makes no sense.

The last thing any applicant wants is for their file to be ridiculed or mocked so callously. We work *damn* hard to get where we are. The sacrifices, mental fortitude, and precious time to be an applicant are enormous. Needless to say, I was gutted. I sent an email to a Dean and also the Director of Student Affairs, and got no response from them. A whole day passes and then this morning I get this email from the staff member.




I am not a petty person...but this did not seem genuine. It was clear the Dean/Director I sent the email to on Monday forwarded it to her, because she cc'd them in the email and used specific verbiage I used in the email.
This was my response:


I know that perhaps I was being a little too emotional, but I feel it is a reasonable response given everything that has happened this year. This application cycle has been brutal. I can't speak for everyone, but it has taken everything in me to keep pushing forward when the world surrounding me is filled with bleak uncertainty. To have someone who is supposed to be an aid to applicants reveal themselves to be rude and careless is disheartening.

For the record, yes, I have taken the MCAT 5 times. And each time I went through that grueling process of content review and practice, and then that anxiety-riddled waiting period after the exam. This is not a joke to me; so for it to be a source of snide entertainment for someone is disappointing.

Has anyone else had such interactions?
 
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Hzreio

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That lady definitely accidentally clicked the reply all button lol. Yes, it is a bit unprofessional. After all, we expect our applications to be judged behind our backs not in front! But next time, try to clear your head before sending emails like that. Generally, emotionally charged message toward people often don't accomplish much.
 
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HKSZYU

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I'm sorry that happened to you. I can see how that message would be upsetting.

I have to agree with the above poster though. Be careful with sending emotionally charged emails in professional settings. The points in your email are completely valid, but the tone is condescending. I don't say that to downplay what you're feeling; I get it. But the medical world is small, and you don't want to make enemies.
 
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shan564

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This isn't about the fact that the message was just upsetting. It's about a greater trend which raises concerns about this school altogether. For those of us who are involved in teaching medical students, we place a great deal of value on that important responsibility. My department chair routinely refers to our trainees as "precious." In this case, an administrator was caught making fun of an applicant, then neglected to apologize, then gave a fake apology ("I'm sorry you felt uncomfortable"), with zero response from a faculty member. This suggests to me that the institution has a culture of not caring about their applicants.

I'm surprised that people aren't appalled. It makes me glad I'm not a pre-med anymore... as a physician, at least you can expect some support and empathy from your colleagues, not "you shouldn't have done that." It's easy to be a Monday morning quarterback when you weren't actually in the midst of a situation... classic pre-med behavior.

Interesting that there are two responses, and both of them chose to criticize the OP's emotional response (even though the OP already acknowledged having been excessively emotional) rather than actually making an effort to answer the question. Also ironic to condescendingly tell somebody that they were being condescending.

If the same thing happened to a patient instead of an applicant, somebody would be getting fired (I've seen that happen before). Pre-meds should have rights too.

...btw I haven't posted on SDN in years, but I stumbled across this while I was doing some research for my wife, and it got me fired up.
 
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GRG0893

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So it has been a minute since I have been on SDN, but when my sister (who is currently applying) told me about this, I was fuming!

As someone who remembers the misery of taking the MCAT several times, and applying three times until I got into med school- I truly empathize with the OP.

As a sister to someone I love, who is embarking on this entire journey... I am going to highly encourage her to withdraw her application. The last post was totally correct about saying, "This suggests to me that the institution has a culture of not caring about their applicants." And I won't hesitate in assuming that this crappy etiquette effects the QOL of their students and education as well. These telling values of UNPROFESSIONALISM and complete LACK OF DECENCY is a reflection of their poor decorum. I remember hearing things about this school back in the day, and it seems pretty spot on with my assumptions. But this is besides the point...

GOOD ON YOU OP for responding to them and calling them out. Emotional or not, you have self-respect, as any person/applicant should. You are no less than anyone else, and there is no need for brown nosing anymore! I'm assuming you are over the age of 22, you are an adult!

Not to mention that applicants pay sooo much money just to have their applications breathed on. When this admin lady said she put a note in your file...UM HELLLO people..does this not raise a massive RED FLAG?

Do yall not see the repercussions of a person who is not actually immersed in the realm of healthcare, being responsible for putting things in your file?? People who can't navigate email are affecting YOUR chances of getting into medical school. Even applying is a massive accomplishment, so don't let someone take your chances away from you. Speak up!!

Ugh sorry to get so real here, but it was a long journey to get where I am today, and there is no chance I would let my own sister go through the same thing. And I share love for all you guys and your struggles. Don't criticize the victim, criticize the offender who mocks hard-working students and takes opportunities away from you for NO GOOD REASON.
 
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Moko

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Does professionalism apply to everyone but themselves?
Unfortunately, 'professionalism' is often invoked (inappropriately) to punish trainees and physicians whenever someone disagrees with us. We are held to high standards of 'professionalism' that is not always reciprocated by administrators, or our physician and non-physician colleagues. Dealing with this hypocrisy can be very frustrating.

I'm glad the OP has other options and can withdraw from this school without consequence, as what happened to them was wrong, plain and simple. And I fully understand why the email would be cathartic to send. However, I also agree with those who are cautioning against these emotional venting responses, because, you know, "professionalism". From my experience and observations, responding emotionally very rarely ends up well for the sender. It simply gives the other side ammunition to invoke "unprofessionalism". Never underestimate how petty, hypocritical, and passive aggressive others can be.

To play the devil's advocate, there are these bad apples at every institution (not necessarily with the admissions team).. And though this school's admissions office was clearly in the wrong and did a terrible job of representing their school, the culture of the admissions office may not be reflective of the culture of the teaching faculty, and/or clinical faculty in different specialties, etc. It is therefore important to talk with current students to get a better sense of what the medical school experience is like, because as a hypothetical student here, you will never have to interact with the admissions staff again.
 
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Dave1980

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Backstory:
Like many others here, I am a reapplicant. I was sending an update to a medical school admissions office to let them know I got a new healthcare experience that I believed was relevant and that I wanted the to be aware of. In my eagerness, I made the rookie mistake of not attaching the file to the email. When I realized it a few minutes later, I frantically started composing an apology message with my attachment. While that was happening, I started getting these emails from a staff member at the admissions office. Clearly they weren't meant for me.

View attachment 325677
I was so shocked at the two messages I just received I didn't know what to do. Then I noticed that I had a two missed phone calls from that same staff member. Additionally, I started receiving these "email recall" messages (I received 2 in total):

View attachment 325685


Before I even knew what to think, I get this message (this was after I had sent an email and apologized for not including the attachment).

View attachment 325686

I decided to call her. I knew that anything said over the phone would be a "he said/she said" situation, but I still wanted to give her the benefit-of-the-doubt and hear what she had to say. Immediately, she said she wanted to talk because she realized the email she sent was "confusing". She then, without me prompting or asking, went through my file and talked about my potential saying "they like upward trends" and so on, as well as some of the more negative aspects of my application. This would have been really well appreciated if it was solicited advice. Instead, I just saw this as her attempt to appease me for what was a clear breach of applicant trust. The best part of this conversation was when I bluntly asked her if those emails were intended for someone other than myself. She then very adamantly said they were intended for me, not anyone else. She reiterated this. However, her email refers to me as "she". Why would anyone use a third-person pronoun when talking to that same individual? It makes no sense.

The last thing any applicant wants is for their file to be ridiculed or mocked so callously. We work *damn* hard to get where we are. The sacrifices, mental fortitude, and precious time to be an applicant are enormous. Needless to say, I was gutted. I sent an email to a Dean and also the Director of Student Affairs, and got no response from them. A whole day passes and then this morning I get this email from the staff member.


View attachment 325687

I am not a petty person...but this did not seem genuine. It was clear the Dean/Director I sent the email to on Monday forwarded it to her, because she cc'd them in the email and used specific verbiage I used in the email.
This was my response:
View attachment 325688

I know that perhaps I was being a little too emotional, but I feel it is a reasonable response given everything that has happened this year. This application cycle has been brutal. I can't speak for everyone, but it has taken everything in me to keep pushing forward when the world surrounding me is filled with bleak uncertainty. To have someone who is supposed to be an aid to applicants reveal themselves to be rude and careless is disheartening.

For the record, yes, I have taken the MCAT 5 times. And each time I went through that grueling process of content review and practice, and then that anxiety-riddled waiting period after the exam. This is not a joke to me; so for it to be a source of snide entertainment for someone is disappointing.

Has anyone else had such interactions?

Seems like you finally found a target to project your anger and frustration onto.
 
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deleted834571

Backstory:
Like many others here, I am a reapplicant. I was sending an update to a medical school admissions office to let them know I got a new healthcare experience that I believed was relevant and that I wanted the to be aware of. In my eagerness, I made the rookie mistake of not attaching the file to the email. When I realized it a few minutes later, I frantically started composing an apology message with my attachment. While that was happening, I started getting these emails from a staff member at the admissions office. Clearly they weren't meant for me.

View attachment 325677
I was so shocked at the two messages I just received I didn't know what to do. Then I noticed that I had a two missed phone calls from that same staff member. Additionally, I started receiving these "email recall" messages (I received 2 in total):

View attachment 325685


Before I even knew what to think, I get this message (this was after I had sent an email and apologized for not including the attachment).

View attachment 325686

I decided to call her. I knew that anything said over the phone would be a "he said/she said" situation, but I still wanted to give her the benefit-of-the-doubt and hear what she had to say. Immediately, she said she wanted to talk because she realized the email she sent was "confusing". She then, without me prompting or asking, went through my file and talked about my potential saying "they like upward trends" and so on, as well as some of the more negative aspects of my application. This would have been really well appreciated if it was solicited advice. Instead, I just saw this as her attempt to appease me for what was a clear breach of applicant trust. The best part of this conversation was when I bluntly asked her if those emails were intended for someone other than myself. She then very adamantly said they were intended for me, not anyone else. She reiterated this. However, her email refers to me as "she". Why would anyone use a third-person pronoun when talking to that same individual? It makes no sense.

The last thing any applicant wants is for their file to be ridiculed or mocked so callously. We work *damn* hard to get where we are. The sacrifices, mental fortitude, and precious time to be an applicant are enormous. Needless to say, I was gutted. I sent an email to a Dean and also the Director of Student Affairs, and got no response from them. A whole day passes and then this morning I get this email from the staff member.


View attachment 325687

I am not a petty person...but this did not seem genuine. It was clear the Dean/Director I sent the email to on Monday forwarded it to her, because she cc'd them in the email and used specific verbiage I used in the email.
This was my response:
View attachment 325688

I know that perhaps I was being a little too emotional, but I feel it is a reasonable response given everything that has happened this year. This application cycle has been brutal. I can't speak for everyone, but it has taken everything in me to keep pushing forward when the world surrounding me is filled with bleak uncertainty. To have someone who is supposed to be an aid to applicants reveal themselves to be rude and careless is disheartening.

For the record, yes, I have taken the MCAT 5 times. And each time I went through that grueling process of content review and practice, and then that anxiety-riddled waiting period after the exam. This is not a joke to me; so for it to be a source of snide entertainment for someone is disappointing.

Has anyone else had such interactions?
Major props to you for handling this so professionally. That admissions member should be fired. That is completely unacceptable and unprofessional behavior on their part, and you did nothing wrong in the way that you handled this. Don't let other people convince you otherwise. Yes, you are an applicant, but you deserve basic human respect, which this institution clearly lacks, or they would have returned your email regarding this employee's conduct, and would have terminated their employment. I wish you the best of luck in your medical career, and I'm so sorry that you had to deal with this, on top of the enormous stress of medical school applications.
 
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Hmmm, this is a weird one. Because IMO what Debbie said was fairly minor, and I am sure these admissions committees mock applicants relentlessly (I mean, I would hardly call the whole thing a respectful process in general... Pay us money, pay more money to travel here, we ask you meaningless questions, make you wait forever, deny you without any explanation, etc).

BUT, this lady got caught. So the evidence of disrespect just turned from circumstantial to concrete. Big mistake on her part.
 
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Goro

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Backstory:
Like many others here, I am a reapplicant. I was sending an update to a medical school admissions office to let them know I got a new healthcare experience that I believed was relevant and that I wanted the to be aware of. In my eagerness, I made the rookie mistake of not attaching the file to the email. When I realized it a few minutes later, I frantically started composing an apology message with my attachment. While that was happening, I started getting these emails from a staff member at the admissions office. Clearly they weren't meant for me.

View attachment 325677
I was so shocked at the two messages I just received I didn't know what to do. Then I noticed that I had a two missed phone calls from that same staff member. Additionally, I started receiving these "email recall" messages (I received 2 in total):

View attachment 325685


Before I even knew what to think, I get this message (this was after I had sent an email and apologized for not including the attachment).



I decided to call her. I knew that anything said over the phone would be a "he said/she said" situation, but I still wanted to give her the benefit-of-the-doubt and hear what she had to say. Immediately, she said she wanted to talk because she realized the email she sent was "confusing". She then, without me prompting or asking, went through my file and talked about my potential saying "they like upward trends" and so on, as well as some of the more negative aspects of my application. This would have been really well appreciated if it was solicited advice. Instead, I just saw this as her attempt to appease me for what was a clear breach of applicant trust. The best part of this conversation was when I bluntly asked her if those emails were intended for someone other than myself. She then very adamantly said they were intended for me, not anyone else. She reiterated this. However, her email refers to me as "she". Why would anyone use a third-person pronoun when talking to that same individual? It makes no sense.

The last thing any applicant wants is for their file to be ridiculed or mocked so callously. We work *damn* hard to get where we are. The sacrifices, mental fortitude, and precious time to be an applicant are enormous. Needless to say, I was gutted. I sent an email to a Dean and also the Director of Student Affairs, and got no response from them. A whole day passes and then this morning I get this email from the staff member.




I am not a petty person...but this did not seem genuine. It was clear the Dean/Director I sent the email to on Monday forwarded it to her, because she cc'd them in the email and used specific verbiage I used in the email.
This was my response:


I know that perhaps I was being a little too emotional, but I feel it is a reasonable response given everything that has happened this year. This application cycle has been brutal. I can't speak for everyone, but it has taken everything in me to keep pushing forward when the world surrounding me is filled with bleak uncertainty. To have someone who is supposed to be an aid to applicants reveal themselves to be rude and careless is disheartening.

For the record, yes, I have taken the MCAT 5 times. And each time I went through that grueling process of content review and practice, and then that anxiety-riddled waiting period after the exam. This is not a joke to me; so for it to be a source of snide entertainment for someone is disappointing.

Has anyone else had such interactions?
I've seen this experience happen once or twice in my time on SDN.

Bringing this to the attention of the Admissions Dean was the best thing you could do. Med schools place a high emphasis on professionalism and the least they can do is have admissions staff behave in a professional manner, even if they have a low opinion of any applicant.

There are two ways of looking at this:

1) The admissions office is not a reflection of the medical education you will get, and so don't tar the school with the actions of some fools.

2) If this is how they treat you now, how will they treat you as a student???

If you were my own kid, I'd say skip this school.
 
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GRG0893

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I've seen this experience happen once or twice in my time on SDN.

Bringing this to the attention of the Admissions Dean was the best thing you could do. Med schools place a high emphasis on professionalism and the least they can do is have admissions staff behave in a professional manner, even if they have a low opinion of any applicant.

There are two ways of looking at this:

1) The admissions office is not a reflection of the medical education you will get, and so don't tar the school with the actions of some fools.

2) If this is how they treat you now, how will they treat you as a student???

If you were my own kid, I'd say skip this school.
The verdict is in, and GORO has spoken! I really appreciate your confirmation on this subject, I will absolutely be advising my sis withdraw.

Also, would it be strange or inappropriate to forward this thread to admissions? I feel pretty passionate about shaming anyone, especially in this circumstance. I would really like LECOM to see the effect of this sort of unprofessionalism, it's really shameful.
 
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Goro

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The verdict is in, and GORO has spoken! I really appreciate your confirmation on this subject, I will absolutely be advising my sis withdraw.

Also, would it be strange or inappropriate to forward this thread to admissions? I feel pretty passionate about shaming anyone, especially in this circumstance. I would really like LECOM to see the effect of this sort of unprofessionalism, it's really shameful.
Do not forward the thread. It's the OP's responsibility decide what to do.
 
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Damson

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The office lady not answering honestly/directly to your question and steering away from it by talking about your app is troublesome and unprofessional.

As for the 'drum roll' and mcat comment, I can imagine adcoms in the admissions meeting room criticizing applicants/their applications just as harshly or worse.
 
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Hzreio

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This isn't about the fact that the message was just upsetting. It's about a greater trend which raises concerns about this school altogether. For those of us who are involved in teaching medical students, we place a great deal of value on that important responsibility. My department chair routinely refers to our trainees as "precious." In this case, an administrator was caught making fun of an applicant, then neglected to apologize, then gave a fake apology ("I'm sorry you felt uncomfortable"), with zero response from a faculty member. This suggests to me that the institution has a culture of not caring about their applicants.

I'm surprised that people aren't appalled. It makes me glad I'm not a pre-med anymore... as a physician, at least you can expect some support and empathy from your colleagues, not "you shouldn't have done that." It's easy to be a Monday morning quarterback when you weren't actually in the midst of a situation... classic pre-med behavior.

Interesting that there are two responses, and both of them chose to criticize the OP's emotional response (even though the OP already acknowledged having been excessively emotional) rather than actually making an effort to answer the question. Also ironic to condescendingly tell somebody that they were being condescending.

If the same thing happened to a patient instead of an applicant, somebody would be getting fired (I've seen that happen before). Pre-meds should have rights too.

...btw I haven't posted on SDN in years, but I stumbled across this while I was doing some research for my wife, and it got me fired up.

Am I really that wrong for saying that you should let an emotionally charged message sit for a couple hours before sending it?

But I guess to answer OP's original question, no I have not had anything like that happen to me. However, if it did I would probably wait to clear my mind before doing something. Then, if I still felt it was appropriate to withdraw, I would and compose an email in that state of mind.

This is something I have found to be valuable in my experience and I just wanted to give my .02. Definitely did not mean to offend anyone or condescend so I apologize if I did.
 
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candbgirl

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Am I really that wrong for saying that you should let an emotionally charged message sit for a couple hours before sending it?

But I guess to answer OP's original question, no I have not had anything like that happen to me. However, if it did I would probably wait to clear my mind before doing something. Then, if I still felt it was appropriate to withdraw, I would and compose an email in that state of mind.

This is something I have found to be valuable in my experience and I just wanted to give my .02. Definitely did not mean to offend anyone or condescend so I apologize if I did.
IMO you are not wrong. In situations where I am very emotional, I usually organize my thoughts on paper and then go do something else. Frequently when I come back to my notes I wonder why I was so upset and am thankful I didn’t fire off an email or call someone up. We all make mistakes and we all know the pressure and nerve wracking feelings we have/had going through the application process but we are also adults and should be able to keep out feelings in check. I’ve never had a situation or experience like OP had but I agree firing off that letter can be counterproductive .
 
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Am I really that wrong for saying that you should let an emotionally charged message sit for a couple hours before sending it?

But I guess to answer OP's original question, no I have not had anything like that happen to me. However, if it did I would probably wait to clear my mind before doing something. Then, if I still felt it was appropriate to withdraw, I would and compose an email in that state of mind.

This is something I have found to be valuable in my experience and I just wanted to give my .02. Definitely did not mean to offend anyone or condescend so I apologize if I did.
I understand that you didn't mean to offend me, and appreciate you wanting to share your experience. For the most part, I am actually a quite composed person. I've worked in high pressure, high stress environments, and have my own set of life experiences that have hammered into me a typically level-headed disposition. I won't rehash the reasons I sent the message, because it already happened and I can't change it. Sure, I wish I could have perhaps rephrased some things, but I spoke the truth. My email was a response to silence from the figures of authority and a tepid apology that was nothing short of a formality. My intention of this post was to share my experience, and inquire if any other applicants had faced similar situations; perhaps I shouldn't have shared my email response as it seemed to detract from the intention of the post. Anyway, I do appreciate you apologizing. I think this I can put this thread/issue to rest, as I feel like I've gotten the answers to the questions I was seeking. Thank you everyone for your responses, it has helped me a immensely.
 
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TikiTorches

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Backstory:
Like many others here, I am a reapplicant. I was sending an update to a medical school admissions office to let them know I got a new healthcare experience that I believed was relevant and that I wanted the to be aware of. In my eagerness, I made the rookie mistake of not attaching the file to the email. When I realized it a few minutes later, I frantically started composing an apology message with my attachment. While that was happening, I started getting these emails from a staff member at the admissions office. Clearly they weren't meant for me.

View attachment 325677
I was so shocked at the two messages I just received I didn't know what to do. Then I noticed that I had a two missed phone calls from that same staff member. Additionally, I started receiving these "email recall" messages (I received 2 in total):

View attachment 325685


Before I even knew what to think, I get this message (this was after I had sent an email and apologized for not including the attachment).



I decided to call her. I knew that anything said over the phone would be a "he said/she said" situation, but I still wanted to give her the benefit-of-the-doubt and hear what she had to say. Immediately, she said she wanted to talk because she realized the email she sent was "confusing". She then, without me prompting or asking, went through my file and talked about my potential saying "they like upward trends" and so on, as well as some of the more negative aspects of my application. This would have been really well appreciated if it was solicited advice. Instead, I just saw this as her attempt to appease me for what was a clear breach of applicant trust. The best part of this conversation was when I bluntly asked her if those emails were intended for someone other than myself. She then very adamantly said they were intended for me, not anyone else. She reiterated this. However, her email refers to me as "she". Why would anyone use a third-person pronoun when talking to that same individual? It makes no sense.

The last thing any applicant wants is for their file to be ridiculed or mocked so callously. We work *damn* hard to get where we are. The sacrifices, mental fortitude, and precious time to be an applicant are enormous. Needless to say, I was gutted. I sent an email to a Dean and also the Director of Student Affairs, and got no response from them. A whole day passes and then this morning I get this email from the staff member.




I am not a petty person...but this did not seem genuine. It was clear the Dean/Director I sent the email to on Monday forwarded it to her, because she cc'd them in the email and used specific verbiage I used in the email.
This was my response:


I know that perhaps I was being a little too emotional, but I feel it is a reasonable response given everything that has happened this year. This application cycle has been brutal. I can't speak for everyone, but it has taken everything in me to keep pushing forward when the world surrounding me is filled with bleak uncertainty. To have someone who is supposed to be an aid to applicants reveal themselves to be rude and careless is disheartening.

For the record, yes, I have taken the MCAT 5 times. And each time I went through that grueling process of content review and practice, and then that anxiety-riddled waiting period after the exam. This is not a joke to me; so for it to be a source of snide entertainment for someone is disappointing.

Has anyone else had such interactions?
Yes this reminds me of emails that were accidentally sent by the front desk staff in medical school while I was in medical school. There are unprofessional people everywhere.
Only Physicians are held to the highest standard. Everyone else can do whatever they want
 
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This is disgraceful. You’d think someone in the admissions office would apologize , especially since they are literally choosing candidates who they think will make great physicians, a quality of whom is accountability...
 
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TikiTorches

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This is disgraceful. You’d think someone in the admissions office would apologize , especially since they are literally choosing candidates who they think will make great physicians, a quality of whom is accountability...
The staff is not held to standard. Just Physicians
 
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A bulk of every schools adcom is physicians.. youd think accountability doesn’t just apply to their clinical practice. Each adcom member is representative of the institute, just as each player on a team is supposed to be representative of the team. Someone should have apologized
 
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cincincyreds

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Backstory:
Like many others here, I am a reapplicant. I was sending an update to a medical school admissions office to let them know I got a new healthcare experience that I believed was relevant and that I wanted the to be aware of. In my eagerness, I made the rookie mistake of not attaching the file to the email. When I realized it a few minutes later, I frantically started composing an apology message with my attachment. While that was happening, I started getting these emails from a staff member at the admissions office. Clearly they weren't meant for me.

View attachment 325677
I was so shocked at the two messages I just received I didn't know what to do. Then I noticed that I had a two missed phone calls from that same staff member. Additionally, I started receiving these "email recall" messages (I received 2 in total):

View attachment 325685


Before I even knew what to think, I get this message (this was after I had sent an email and apologized for not including the attachment).



I decided to call her. I knew that anything said over the phone would be a "he said/she said" situation, but I still wanted to give her the benefit-of-the-doubt and hear what she had to say. Immediately, she said she wanted to talk because she realized the email she sent was "confusing". She then, without me prompting or asking, went through my file and talked about my potential saying "they like upward trends" and so on, as well as some of the more negative aspects of my application. This would have been really well appreciated if it was solicited advice. Instead, I just saw this as her attempt to appease me for what was a clear breach of applicant trust. The best part of this conversation was when I bluntly asked her if those emails were intended for someone other than myself. She then very adamantly said they were intended for me, not anyone else. She reiterated this. However, her email refers to me as "she". Why would anyone use a third-person pronoun when talking to that same individual? It makes no sense.

The last thing any applicant wants is for their file to be ridiculed or mocked so callously. We work *damn* hard to get where we are. The sacrifices, mental fortitude, and precious time to be an applicant are enormous. Needless to say, I was gutted. I sent an email to a Dean and also the Director of Student Affairs, and got no response from them. A whole day passes and then this morning I get this email from the staff member.




I am not a petty person...but this did not seem genuine. It was clear the Dean/Director I sent the email to on Monday forwarded it to her, because she cc'd them in the email and used specific verbiage I used in the email.
This was my response:


I know that perhaps I was being a little too emotional, but I feel it is a reasonable response given everything that has happened this year. This application cycle has been brutal. I can't speak for everyone, but it has taken everything in me to keep pushing forward when the world surrounding me is filled with bleak uncertainty. To have someone who is supposed to be an aid to applicants reveal themselves to be rude and careless is disheartening.

For the record, yes, I have taken the MCAT 5 times. And each time I went through that grueling process of content review and practice, and then that anxiety-riddled waiting period after the exam. This is not a joke to me; so for it to be a source of snide entertainment for someone is disappointing.

Has anyone else had such interactions?
First of all sorry you had to experience that. The application process is tough. I advise many premed students and I'm 100% upfront on what is needed. I'm happy to talk to anyone and I'm 100% truthful on what is looked for. In general average GPAs are 3.7 and average MCAT scores are 510. So I highly recommend to pre med students to achieve these numbers before applying. There is a lot of competition and there is good data successful medical students have these stats.
 
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beachbum75

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I had an interview at a Texas school (won’t mention the name), but we were on break before our interviews and two of the staff members accidentally didn’t mute and started taking about the applicants. Both of them started to say inappropriate comments about their attractiveness and whether they would “marry them” or “go onto them (in a obvious sexual way” and then preceded to make negative remarks about their whole application and their MCAT scores. This was an applicant who was in the same lobby as me and went into a breakout room for their interview. It was me and another applicant who was in the lobby with them. It was uncomfortable and before I was about to say that they left their mic on (cause I knew I shouldn’t let it go on that would be weird), they figured it out and muted themselves. I hesitated to see if I should tell them what I heard but I felt it would do no good cause idk what they could do? I don’t know if they would somehow think I would make a big deal out of it and do something to my app or something ...so I just didn’t say anything. They never said anything about me (thank God cause I would’ve been even more uncomfortable or scared even). Trust me, I did want to say something because talking sexually like that about applicants was disturbing and made me think, “is this how they talk about all of us, and not even in a sexual way but a inappropriate way?”. I did not end up saying anything cause I didn’t want to make an enemy out of anyone or have them somehow say I was lying, cause I obviously really want to be a doctor and I hadn’t had any acceptances at that point. It made me realize that this happens at some many places I assume. Staff members judging us behind closed doors and saying inappropriate things that are disturbing or unkind and it’s sad to realize that, but it’s the unfortunate truth.

I’m so sorry that happened to you and I’m glad you responded that way. You are in the right for your feelings and they were wrong. Actions should’ve been taken against them for speaking like that and accidentally including you in that. Those words should’ve never even been spoken like that, because that was condescending and unprofessional to the max. I’m so sorry and I wish you good fortune on your career into medicine. Hopefully the newer generation of physicians will make strides to make the workplace more professional and not have these condescending tones within their work environment. This process is already hard and we don’t need people making it harder.
IMO I find this story far, far more disturbing. OP's story is an example of extreme unprofessionalism and something that absolutely should not have happened. But, if I were in an interview and heard staff members making sexual comments about applicants I wouldn't even know what to do. That's a whole nother level of inappropriate and uncomfortable.
 
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MedicineN'Jazz

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This reminds me of a family med resident who spoke up about her attending abusing a patient and who also correctly reported her duty hours. She was subsequently fired from her residency program, and will likely never match at another residency program again.

There is absolutely NO justice for students and residents in this world. Until we form a union, the best course of action is to conform to expectations and survive. Your number one priority is becoming a doctor
 
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deleted1082375

This reminds me of a family med resident who spoke up about her attending abusing a patient and who also correctly reported her duty hours. She was subsequently fired from her residency program, and will likely never match at another residency program again.

There is absolutely NO justice for students and residents in this world. Until we form a union, the best course of action is to conform to expectations and survive. Your number one priority is becoming a doctor
Wants a union and over $200k salary 🙄🙄🙄
 
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deleted1082375

IMO I find this story far, far more disturbing. OP's story is an example of extreme unprofessionalism and something that absolutely should not have happened. But, if I were in an interview and heard staff members making sexual comments about applicants I wouldn't even know what to do. That's a whole nother level of inappropriate and uncomfortable.
Report to ama or aoa
 
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HopeP

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This isn't about the fact that the message was just upsetting. It's about a greater trend which raises concerns about this school altogether. For those of us who are involved in teaching medical students, we place a great deal of value on that important responsibility. My department chair routinely refers to our trainees as "precious." In this case, an administrator was caught making fun of an applicant, then neglected to apologize, then gave a fake apology ("I'm sorry you felt uncomfortable"), with zero response from a faculty member. This suggests to me that the institution has a culture of not caring about their applicants.

I'm surprised that people aren't appalled. It makes me glad I'm not a pre-med anymore... as a physician, at least you can expect some support and empathy from your colleagues, not "you shouldn't have done that." It's easy to be a Monday morning quarterback when you weren't actually in the midst of a situation... classic pre-med behavior.

Interesting that there are two responses, and both of them chose to criticize the OP's emotional response (even though the OP already acknowledged having been excessively emotional) rather than actually making an effort to answer the question. Also ironic to condescendingly tell somebody that they were being condescending.

If the same thing happened to a patient instead of an applicant, somebody would be getting fired (I've seen that happen before). Pre-meds should have rights too.

...btw I haven't posted on SDN in years, but I stumbled across this while I was doing some research for my wife, and it got me fired up.
Precisely where is adcom/administration staff core competencies?
 

HopeP

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Hmmm, this is a weird one. Because IMO what Debbie said was fairly minor, and I am sure these admissions committees mock applicants relentlessly (I mean, I would hardly call the whole thing a respectful process in general... Pay us money, pay more money to travel here, we ask you meaningless questions, make you wait forever, deny you without any explanation, etc).

BUT, this lady got caught. So the evidence of disrespect just turned from circumstantial to concrete. Big mistake on her part.
People didn't believe it until video era changed the perception..sounds familiar..
 
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Eye-eye

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You're not the only one. As a student getting ready to do my fin aid application for my ms2, I had sent an email asking the fin aid director a question about the timeline / when I should send certain things in. With a spouse who was working in m1 for ****ty pay and enrolling in school m2, money was extremely tight and I'd had to apply for a bit more loans at some point in m1, so I wanted to get my ducks in a row in advance. I got an email clearly meant for a coworker of his saying something to the effect of "Jesus, he just can't wait to ask for more money. Wonder if his wife will actually be going to school like he said..." Like I just love asking for more loans that I'll have to pay back at about twice what I took out. Or that it's my wife's fault her employer screwed her out of wages. Or that it's some huge offense to ask him to do his job or answer a politely asked question about when I should submit some forms in the first place. Then I got about 20 "tried to recall a message" emails and one finally answering the question with no reference whatsoever to the prior emails. I emailed back politely putting him in his place about how unprofessional it was an emailed it to the dean of the med school. The dean at least fully supported me, but the guy got nothing more than a stern talking to, I'm sure. I still have to send him my forms and will need to do my exit meeting with him on loan repayment plans at some point in here. Still, if he's caught being that unprofessional a couple more times, perhaps something real will happen. Or maybe he'll actually learn not to be a judgmental ass. Always better to report this type of bull****. And stay strong - they're just ****ers who are jealous and want to find ways to demean people doing something they never had the courage or talent to do. The ones who actually care and support students don't do this ****.
 
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MedicineN'Jazz

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Wants a union and over $200k salary 🙄🙄
Wow are you even in the medical field? Most residents get paid $30k to $60k. This has nothing to do with money and everything to do with the inhumane treatment medical students and residents hush up about. If you know nothing about it, then don’t ridicule it. Your comment was absolutely disgusting
 
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Eye-eye

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Wow are you even in the medical field? Most residents get paid $30k to $60k. This has nothing to do with money and everything to do with the inhumane treatment medical students and residents hush up about. If you know nothing about it, then don’t ridicule it. Your comment was absolutely disgusting
I think it may have been sarcasm, since residents should have the right to unionize / shouldn't be so overworked and underpaid, and since FM is vastly underpaid on average compared to many specialties (attendings, obviously, not residents). Not sure, though.
 
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Eye-eye

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I had an interview at a Texas school (won’t mention the name), but we were on break before our interviews and two of the staff members accidentally didn’t mute and started taking about the applicants. Both of them started to say inappropriate comments about their attractiveness and whether they would “marry them” or “go onto them (in a obvious sexual way” and then preceded to make negative remarks about their whole application and their MCAT scores. This was an applicant who was in the same lobby as me and went into a breakout room for their interview. It was me and another applicant who was in the lobby with them. It was uncomfortable and before I was about to say that they left their mic on (cause I knew I shouldn’t let it go on that would be weird), they figured it out and muted themselves. I hesitated to see if I should tell them what I heard but I felt it would do no good cause idk what they could do? I don’t know if they would somehow think I would make a big deal out of it and do something to my app or something ...so I just didn’t say anything. They never said anything about me (thank God cause I would’ve been even more uncomfortable or scared even). Trust me, I did want to say something because talking sexually like that about applicants was disturbing and made me think, “is this how they talk about all of us, and not even in a sexual way but a inappropriate way?”. I did not end up saying anything cause I didn’t want to make an enemy out of anyone or have them somehow say I was lying, cause I obviously really want to be a doctor and I hadn’t had any acceptances at that point. It made me realize that this happens at some many places I assume. Staff members judging us behind closed doors and saying inappropriate things that are disturbing or unkind and it’s sad to realize that, but it’s the unfortunate truth.
Jesus... just read through all the older replies on this thread and found this. That is ****ing disgusting, and those people should 100% be fired. If you haven't done anything yet, you need to (obviously if your chance to matriculate somewhere is at stake, wait until you're set before you do so). Email as many higher-ups as you can. Docs/deans of admissions or even the dean/execs of the whole med school (or hospital), not just other admin people. That is so far past any normal example of unprofessionalism; it's ****ing sexual harassment and discrimination based on sex and attractiveness. This needs to be spoken up about. Under normal circumstances I would never encourage an applicant to reach out to most of those people directly, but in this case (once you've matriculated somewhere), you need to put this on full blast. If you put enough higher ups on one email's "To" line (no bcc'ing here), they have to do something, and something needs to be done here. It doesn't matter if it's been a long time, it still needs to be done. Be as specific and objective as possible. Say what date and approximate time (AM/PM sessions), and if you know the names of those saying these things, put them in the email. I would personally not put the name of the applicant, as they've been through enough and don't need to go through this **** (and may still be in need of a med school spot, perhaps at that institution). If you can use quotes or paraphrase, do so, being exactly as explicit as they were. Be honest that you didn't bring it up earlier out of concerns for matching somewhere, and apologize for not bringing the incident up sooner (even though you did NOTHING wrong, it's a nice touch to ingratiate yourself/look professional, and gives more weight to your concerns). State that you were simply very concerned about this obvious unprofessionalism, that such behavior reflects extremely poorly on the institution and is certainly not in keeping with its mission, etc. Send it from your university or applicant email account, with your name on it (otherwise they could just dismiss it as a pissy applicant trying to screw some people over). This takes bravery to do, admittedly, but this needs to be put out in the open. You're going to need to fight for the justice of those who can't always speak for themselves (your patients) soon enough, and this applicant may not be in a position to do so (e.g., it may have been their only interview for med school, or they may be too ashamed to do so). A third party reporting it also gives it more objectivity, and if someone else has also reported it, it gives the reports extra weight. Please don't just let this go. It sucks that it's on you to say something when you did nothing wrong, but once you're in a position to do so, please do - what they did is simply unacceptable.
 
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deleted1082375

Wow are you even in the medical field? Most residents get paid $30k to $60k. This has nothing to do with money and everything to do with the inhumane treatment medical students and residents hush up about. If you know nothing about it, then don’t ridicule it. Your comment was absolutely disgusting
Premed calls me disgusting. Lol
 
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Agree with eye-eye. If no one says something, it just perpetuates a culture of silence harassment. Happy to see you are planning on saying something. Please keep us informed.
 
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FutureInternist

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This reminds me of a family med resident who spoke up about her attending abusing a patient and who also correctly reported her duty hours. She was subsequently fired from her residency program, and will likely never match at another residency program again.

There is absolutely NO justice for students and residents in this world. Until we form a union, the best course of action is to conform to expectations and survive. Your number one priority is becoming a doctor

And wait until after you have started your job, to call NRMP etc and report them
 

FutureInternist

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Jesus... just read through all the older replies on this thread and found this. That is ****ing disgusting, and those people should 100% be fired. If you haven't done anything yet, you need to (obviously if your chance to matriculate somewhere is at stake, wait until you're set before you do so). Email as many higher-ups as you can. Docs/deans of admissions or even the dean/execs of the whole med school (or hospital), not just other admin people. That is so far past any normal example of unprofessionalism; it's ****ing sexual harassment and discrimination based on sex and attractiveness. This needs to be spoken up about. Under normal circumstances I would never encourage an applicant to reach out to most of those people directly, but in this case (once you've matriculated somewhere), you need to put this on full blast. If you put enough higher ups on one email's "To" line (no bcc'ing here), they have to do something, and something needs to be done here. It doesn't matter if it's been a long time, it still needs to be done. Be as specific and objective as possible. Say what date and approximate time (AM/PM sessions), and if you know the names of those saying these things, put them in the email. I would personally not put the name of the applicant, as they've been through enough and don't need to go through this **** (and may still be in need of a med school spot, perhaps at that institution). If you can use quotes or paraphrase, do so, being exactly as explicit as they were. Be honest that you didn't bring it up earlier out of concerns for matching somewhere, and apologize for not bringing the incident up sooner (even though you did NOTHING wrong, it's a nice touch to ingratiate yourself/look professional, and gives more weight to your concerns). State that you were simply very concerned about this obvious unprofessionalism, that such behavior reflects extremely poorly on the institution and is certainly not in keeping with its mission, etc. Send it from your university or applicant email account, with your name on it (otherwise they could just dismiss it as a pissy applicant trying to screw some people over). This takes bravery to do, admittedly, but this needs to be put out in the open. You're going to need to fight for the justice of those who can't always speak for themselves (your patients) soon enough, and this applicant may not be in a position to do so (e.g., it may have been their only interview for med school, or they may be too ashamed to do so). A third party reporting it also gives it more objectivity, and if someone else has also reported it, it gives the reports extra weight. Please don't just let this go. It sucks that it's on you to say something when you did nothing wrong, but once you're in a position to do so, please do - what they did is simply unacceptable.

Paragraphs dude/dudette
 

Matthew9Thirtyfive

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Premed calls me disgusting. Lol

Pretty sure @MedicineN'Jazz is an MS4. And you’re what? An MS2? You might want to read up on what residency can be like if you think wanting to be treated fairly and not like an indentured servant is unreasonable.

The double standard of students and residents getting strung up for “professionalism” any time they speak up for their own welfare while admins can do whatever they want is widespread.
 
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Matthew9Thirtyfive

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Gonna say it one more time. If you don’t like someone or what they post, report it and/or ignore them. Don’t derail the thread.

And keep off topic political **** off the thread. It will result in moderation. Two posts with off topic political content have been deleted.
 
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deleted1082375

Pretty sure @MedicineN'Jazz is an MS4. And you’re what? An MS2? You might want to read up on what residency can be like if you think wanting to be treated fairly and not like an indentured servant is unreasonable.

The double standard of students and residents getting strung up for “professionalism” any time they speak up for their own welfare while admins can do whatever they want is widespread.
I’m well aware of the double standards as I’ve had to endure it as well as my family who have gone through residency.

faculty members who comment on female classmates panties and ask them on dates are the same ones who try to expel students for using this site at my institution.

I’ve also seen residency directors almost remove my family from residency for wanting to fire a patient who refused to be seen by anyone but a white male.

The quickest way to find out who’s in charge is to think about who you can’t criticize. The system is broken.

I personally avoid going to school if I can avoid it.
 
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Matthew9Thirtyfive

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I’m well aware of the double standards as I’ve had to endure it as well as my family who have gone through residency.

faculty members who comment on female classmates panties and ask them on dates are the same ones who try to expel students for using this site at my institution.

I’ve also seen residency directors almost remove my family from residency for wanting to fire a patient who refused to be seen by anyone but a white male.

The quickest way to find out who’s in charge is to think about who you can’t criticize. The system is broken.

I personally avoid going to school if I can avoid it.

That’s disgusting. I’m lucky in that my school hasn’t seemed to have any of this ****, but I’ve heard of that kind of stuff from friends at other schools.
 

readmypostsMD

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Backstory:
Like many others here, I am a reapplicant. I was sending an update to a medical school admissions office to let them know I got a new healthcare experience that I believed was relevant and that I wanted the to be aware of. In my eagerness, I made the rookie mistake of not attaching the file to the email. When I realized it a few minutes later, I frantically started composing an apology message with my attachment. While that was happening, I started getting these emails from a staff member at the admissions office. Clearly they weren't meant for me.

View attachment 325677
I was so shocked at the two messages I just received I didn't know what to do. Then I noticed that I had a two missed phone calls from that same staff member. Additionally, I started receiving these "email recall" messages (I received 2 in total):

View attachment 325685


Before I even knew what to think, I get this message (this was after I had sent an email and apologized for not including the attachment).



I decided to call her. I knew that anything said over the phone would be a "he said/she said" situation, but I still wanted to give her the benefit-of-the-doubt and hear what she had to say. Immediately, she said she wanted to talk because she realized the email she sent was "confusing". She then, without me prompting or asking, went through my file and talked about my potential saying "they like upward trends" and so on, as well as some of the more negative aspects of my application. This would have been really well appreciated if it was solicited advice. Instead, I just saw this as her attempt to appease me for what was a clear breach of applicant trust. The best part of this conversation was when I bluntly asked her if those emails were intended for someone other than myself. She then very adamantly said they were intended for me, not anyone else. She reiterated this. However, her email refers to me as "she". Why would anyone use a third-person pronoun when talking to that same individual? It makes no sense.

The last thing any applicant wants is for their file to be ridiculed or mocked so callously. We work *damn* hard to get where we are. The sacrifices, mental fortitude, and precious time to be an applicant are enormous. Needless to say, I was gutted. I sent an email to a Dean and also the Director of Student Affairs, and got no response from them. A whole day passes and then this morning I get this email from the staff member.




I am not a petty person...but this did not seem genuine. It was clear the Dean/Director I sent the email to on Monday forwarded it to her, because she cc'd them in the email and used specific verbiage I used in the email.
This was my response:


I know that perhaps I was being a little too emotional, but I feel it is a reasonable response given everything that has happened this year. This application cycle has been brutal. I can't speak for everyone, but it has taken everything in me to keep pushing forward when the world surrounding me is filled with bleak uncertainty. To have someone who is supposed to be an aid to applicants reveal themselves to be rude and careless is disheartening.

For the record, yes, I have taken the MCAT 5 times. And each time I went through that grueling process of content review and practice, and then that anxiety-riddled waiting period after the exam. This is not a joke to me; so for it to be a source of snide entertainment for someone is disappointing.

Has anyone else had such interactions?

Dude don’t sweat it, another perspective is that Debbie is most likely some unhappy generic greyscale office cubicle 9-5 worker bee secretary... if it makes you feel better, consider her words to hold no value
 
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GastriqueGraffin

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If you want to be successful, you need to grow thick skin. I remember the amount of whining when students who have always been straight A in undergrad get their first failure or even being average. They complain during clerkship and residency and overall those are not good doctors largely because they are too sensitive. You will have a lot of ups and downs beginning with application to med school and ending with retirement.

What they did is unprofessional but your reaction should be one that doesn’t get hurt. Also my recommendation before sending any professional emails is wait 24 hours after you write it and then reread it and really think about it.
 
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TikiTorches

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This doesn't change as an attending. Its always the physician who is held to the highest standard. And as a female doc, some nurses may be out to get you
 
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