Applied to Psy D-- how important is location in your choice

[goodfella1]

I have two major questions to post here:

(1) Should I choose a Psy D program because of its location or because of the quality of its program?

(2) Psy D, Master's Counseling, or MSW?

OK, I know these questions come up a lot because I've been reading this forum for years. This is my first post, so please bear with me if I am asking something that has already been asked a kajillion times. I applied to the Wright Institute and Wright State University Psy D programs. I got accepted to Wright Institute (Berkeley,CA) and I am on the waiting list for Wright State (Dayton, OH). (I know that doesn't seems promising, but they haven't gotten responses from their first picks, and I have a feeling I may be selected if there are enough open slots left.)

I have read a lot about the burdensome loans Psy D. programs require you to take out. I know if I go to the Wright Institute I will take out 100 k for school and around possibly another 100 for living expenses in Berkeley, CA. I also know that it is not rated too highly by some. It has about a 41% APA accredited internship rate, a 65% paid internship rate, and a 83% total internship rate. They're also rated as one of the very lowest in their EPA rates, have a very large cohort of about 70 students, and are considered primarily psychodynamic (which I don't favor) but are also implementing CBT (which I like).

I've also heard some people say good things about the school. Like the training is excellent, APA internships are not that important, the reason many don't get APA internships is because they don't leave the Bay Area, and that Wright Institute students go on to do well after they graduate.

My impression of the school was that it was a little soft and fluffy from my first impression. The school resources didn't seem too great, and I wondered if perhaps the greatest motivator for being in the school is the location (and the fact that it's a Psy D that accepts me, and that thought is exciting). I feel the location is a big draw for me. Berkeley is beautiful, San Fran is beautiful, and as a New Yorker the idea of living 5 or more years there is truly exciting to me. I'm just hoping that the program is good. A lot of people say you have to make it work for you, and you get out of it what you put into it.

As for Wright State University, if I get in, it has a smaller cohort (25 students) and I like what I see of the school's program, its faculty, and students. I actually was drawn to Wright State University very early on. Plus, it has a 91% internship rate with paid placement, and 83% APA. It's rated as one of the top 25 Psy D schools in the country (from a number of websites I checked out) and they have great sites for practicums. Plus, tuition will come out to about $80 k for the four years of study-- I don't know if they charge while interning or how much they charge for that matter(assuming I'm ready to intern by my fifth year). They also offer university privileges compared to the shoddy house the Wright Institute offers. I feel the school environment is very supportive, and I feel that the faculty makes more of an investment in you and you have better guidance there.

The problem with Wright State is as a New Yorker, the thought of living in Dayton is sort of dismal (no offense to those who are there). I was thinking of living in Columbus instead and heard that they have a few cool areas around there. I just can't live in an area where I can't walk on the streets-- I can, probably, but I don't know how happy I'll be doing it. I love driving so that's not a problem. So long as there's a place that I can drive from every day to and from Dayton, I'd be willing to live in Columbus. Can anybody vouch for Columbus? I hear some of the cool neighborhoods like Short North and Germantown are about an hour away from Dayton.

I know it seems pretty superficial to be speaking of location, but this is 5 years or more of my life. I want to be in a good program, and I want to be able to pay my loans back and make a good living through this all. I am 32 years old and I haven't got much more time to wait.

I guess I'm asking the public what matters more to you. Are you currently in a program that's great, but has a sorta dull location (in your opinion)? Or are you at a great location whose program's doesn't match you (assuming that I'd feel that way about the Wright Institute)?

Also, if there are any students from the Wright Institute in Berkeley, or students from Wright State in Dayton, I'd love to hear your feedback. I'd be happy to hear from people even if you know people from there (the cities or schools), or if you have heard about their programs.

Thanks to all!

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[eudaimonPsyD]

please Please PLEASE for the love of God DON'T make the same mistake I did and value location over quality of education. At the time I was applying to graduate school, it was very important for me to stay in California, more specifically my hometown area, so that I could cut down on my expenses and be closer to my partner. I fundamentally believe I have suffered for it and that I have set myself up for an uphill battle for the next 5 years of my career. Do yourself a favor and save yourself from a lot of unnecessary extra work trying to prove yourself credible, go to a credible school! (Not saying that The Wright Institute has a sh**ty program, but it has poor match rates = not good) As much as the locale is enticing, you would be setting yourself on a trajectory for a better, easier to obtain career by going to Wright State University. Grad school is hard enough, why struggle more than you have to? Plus, you can always make efforts to move to more desirable locations for internship and post-doc.

I'm tired and rambling, but basically I say that if they offer you a spot, go for Wright State University. Give yourself more of a fighting chance.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

I'd say there's a very clear reason why the less-desirable program is in an awesome area. I was in your place (sort of) last year--I was exactly your age and I valued location over program in my applications. I didn't get in, and it was a blessing because this year I'm going somewhere cool, cheap, and to a program that will get me where I want to be in my career, even if it is a compromise in other ways. Can you wait a year and apply to more desirable programs in good locations?? I agree that I think either of your choices are significant compromises. But I think I would choose OH over CA since CA is so tremendously saturated and expensive.

 

[docma]

Go to Ohio if you can. The money you will save in tuition and cost of living over 5 years can finance trips to the Bay Area or some other beautiful place when you need a break from Ohio. Remember that wherever you are you will be in grad school full time and the locale will really be the campus and clinic and your housing. The overall costs in terms of debt and opportunity would not seem to make it worth choosing cool over practical. If you just read what you posted as an outside observer it is hard to see how you would choose California. If it is your only choice, that is another matter, of course but if you are close to admission to a funded program, choosing one that is not is a clear long term disadvantage. And, as a Californian who did grad studies in the MidWest after living in New York State, don't underestimate the middle...

 

[PsyDLICSW]

OK, I know these questions come up a lot because I've been reading this forum for years. This is my first post, so please bear with me if I am asking something that has already been asked a kajillion times. I applied to the Wright Institute and Wright State University Psy D programs. I got accepted to Wright Institute (Berkeley,CA) and I am on the waiting list for Wright State (Dayton, OH).

I have read a lot about the burdensome loans Psy D. programs require you to take out. I know if I go to the Wright Institute I will take out 100 k for school and around possibly another 100 for living expenses in Berkeley, CA. I also know that it is not rated too highly by some. It has about a 41% APA accredited internship rate, a 65% paid internship rate, and a 83% total internship rate. They're also rated as one of the very lowest in their EPA rates, have a very large cohort of about 70 students, and are considered primarily psychodynamic (which I don't favor) but are also implementing CBT (which I like).

I've also heard some people say good things about the school. Like the training is excellent, APA internships are not that important, the reason many don't get APA internships is because they don't leave the Bay Area, and that Wright Institute students go on to do well after graduate.

My impression of the school was that it was a little soft and fluffy from my first impression. The school resources didn't seem too great, and that perhaps the greatest motivator for being in the school is the location. I feel the location is a big draw for me. Berkeley is beautiful, San Fran is beautiful, and as a New Yorker the idea of living 5 or more years there is truly exciting to me. I'm just hoping that the program is good. A lot of people say you have to make it work for you, and you get out of it what you put into it.

As for Wright State University, if I get in, it has a smaller cohort (25 students) and I like what I see of the school's program, its faculty, and students. Plus, it has a 91% internship rate with paid placement, and 83% APA. It's rated as one of the top 25 Psy D schools in the country and they have great sites for practicums. Plus, tuition will come out to about $80 k for the four years of study-- I don't know if they charge while interning or how much they charge for that matter(assuming I'm ready to intern by my fifth year). They also offer university privileges compared to the shoddy house the Wright Institute offers. I feel the school environment is very supportive, and I feel that the faculty makes more of an investment in you and you have better guidance there.

The problem with Wright State is as a New Yorker, the thought of living in Dayton is sort of dismal (no offense to those who are there). I was thinking of living in Columbus instead and heard that they have a few cool areas around there. I just can't live in an area where I can't walk on the streets-- I can, probably, but I don't know how happy I'll be doing it. I love driving so that's not a problem. So long as there's a place that I can drive from every day to and from Dayton, I'd be willing to live in Columbus. Can anybody vouch for Columbus? I hear some of the cool neighborhoods like Short North and Germantown are about an hour away from Dayton.

I know it seems pretty superficial to be speaking of location, but this is 5 years or more of my life. I want to be in a good program, and I want to be able to pay my loans back and make a good living through this all. I am 32 years old and I haven't got much more time to wait.

I'd be happy to hear from students who are from Wright Institute or Wright State, or those who know about it. Also, I'd love to hear from people who can speak of their experiences of really enjoying a city, but not so much a program or really enjoying a program, but not so much a city.

Location was somewhat a factor for me, but it was to be closer to my spouse. I am fortunate that my program is APA accredited and is within 3 hours drive of my spouse. It is in a rural area, though and not close to a bigger city. I would not recommend going to a school with low APA match rates and a cohort of above 20. Wait it out for Wright State. I got off the wait list there, so there is hope. Do not go to a professional school. It is not a wise decision.

 

[spafticus]

I can speak a bit about Wright State and in general living in Ohio as I was born and raised in Dayton (currently live in New England) and obtained my BS from Wright State.

As for the location, it is not California. They call it grey-sky Ohio for a reason. Growing up there I didn't mind it at all, but now living within 15 minutes of the beach and eating fresh fish on a regular occasion it's going to be hard to leave the coast (which I'm doing in 3 months to move to Nebraska). That said, I much prefer Midwesterners to New Englanders. I think we are easy-going, friendly people and imo as long as you surround yourself with good people, you can live anywhere. Dayton itself isn't so bad. The downtown has a wonderful Single A baseball team that is a blast to do on a nice summer day and there is also a really nice theater that consistently brings in wonderful productions. Wright State is actually on the border of Dayton and Beavercreek. I wouldn't recommend anyone to actually live in Downtown Dayton, but Beavercreek is a nice upcoming city. You are less than 5 minutes from a large mall, tons of restaurants and regular suburbia entertainment. Also, the nice part is you are centrally located between Cincinnati and Columbus (both about an hour away and have much more of big city entertainment).

As for Columbus, I only lived there one year, but I love Columbus.The areas you mentioned are both great places to live though will probably take you more than an hour to commute to and from everyday. The German District has amazing food (you have to check out my friend's gourmet pizza place - simply wonderful). If a big city living is a must for you, then Columbus is a great option, but a better (and cheaper) option is to live in Beavercreek and commute to Cincy or Columbus for the weekend if you need big city entertainment.

I can't speak about the PsyD program at Wright State as that program and the department of Psychology are separate. My only interaction with a PsyD student was when one of them served as lecturer for my drugs and behavior class. I've heard good things about the overall program though, but I'm sure other people can talk more about the details of the program.

Let me know if you have any specific questions and best of luck!

 

[Sanman]

While each person makes their own decisions with regard to how important quality of life is, I would suggest Ohio. Having gone to a good program in a smaller city that I did not enjoy and then moved back to NYC, I can tell you a few things. You will be very busy in grad school and while a bit of culture is important, you may not have time to partake in big city culture while in grad school. The other factor is that you are not going be living in a nice part of a big city on a student budget. However, you can (and I did) live near the nicer/downtown neighborhoods in a smaller city. I had bars, restaurants, etc a block away from my place in the small city. So, you will have likely have a better location within a smaller city than you would in a place like Berkeley. Do you want to look at a variety of awesome places you can't afford/easily get to or fewer places right by you in a smaller city?

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I agree with essentially everything that's been said, and so offer another vote for Ohio. As has been mentioned, grad school will keep you pretty busy. When it's not, I'm a proponent of the mindset that essentially anywhere can be made to be at least somewhat entertaining if you try. And even if it's not, as docma mentioned, the money you say by living in OH rather than CA could fund several trips over the course of your grad school career.

Ultimately, in my mind, attending a program that seems to produce lower overall outcomes isn't at all worth the trade-off of living in a more desirable location. Remember, grad school generally only lasts 5-6 years; your career will go on a lot longer than that, and where/how you trained could become a factor at any point along the way. Besides, I'd rather be happier with my program in a "worse" locale than ecstatic about where I'm living but utterly distraught with my program.

 

[eudaimonPsyD]

Besides, I'd rather be happier with my program in a "worse" locale than ecstatic about where I'm living but utterly distraught with my program.

My point exactly.

 

[clinpsych]

I know it seems pretty superficial to be speaking of location, but this is 5 years or more of my life. I want to be in a good program, and I want to be able to pay my loans back and make a good living through this all. I am 32 years old and I haven't got much more time to wait.

This is my .02 as someone who is about to graduate. Even with tuition remission, a stipend, and a reasonable cost of living, I have accumulated a daunting amount of debt. If I were you, and were paying full tuition to attend a Psy.D. program, I would NEVER choose a city with such a high cost of living. It is likely that you will either 1) dig yourself into a huge financial hole that would take decades to escape from, or 2) be dirt poor throughout graduate school. How fun would it be to live in San Francisco if you can't afford to take advantage of the opportunities it offers?

Also, psychology salaries are simply not high enough to justify accumulating that kind of debt, particularly from an institution that is considered questionable to some and is completely unknown to others.

I've also heard some people say good things about the school. Like the training is excellent, APA internships are not that important, the reason many don't get APA internships is because they don't leave the Bay Area, and that Wright Institute students go on to do well after they graduate.

The fact that many Wright Institute students stay local is a reason not to go there. Future employers will be unlikely to hire someone from unfamiliar programs whose graduates are also unknown to them.

Also, I think it is complete B.S. to say that an APA internship is not that important. Does absolutely everyone need one? No, of course not. But do you really want to rack up 200,000+ worth of debt for a career that will be limited from the start? This field becomes more competitive with every passing minute. You will be competing for jobs against people from APA-accredited programs and internships. Do yourself a favor and position yourself to be one of them.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

It's only the majority of training for your chosen career, which isn't nearly as important as being able to walk the streets and not be bored... Given the information you know about each program, what do you expect to hear?

 

[funkyrat]

I have a similar dilemma in terms of location vs reputation. I am debating between a pretty good Psy.D program in a great location that's offering me basically full tuition remission vs one of the best programs that is in a so-so location and an unclear amount of financial aid (but probably will be manageable). How much does reputation really impact APA internship match rates/careers? I know the reputation of the degree I get will follow me for the rest of my life but where I go to school ultimately impact where I end up living/practicing as well? I think I would rather end up living in the pretty good program's location.

 

[goodfella1]

I really should have posted here a long time ago. You guys are awesomely supportive!!! I think you're right about choosing Wright State (if I do get accepted). Again, I have a feeling that I will (I am foolishly optimisitic . I've called them and they told me they are not willing to tell me where I am on the list, but they haven't heard back from a lot of their first picks. I'm guessing by calling them I am showing my interest in the program; I left them a message and then a week later called the office and spoke to a student who gave me the update.

I think I should go with my first impression of the Wright Institute as not being for me. And who knows, it may be for other people, but it just didn't speak to me.

As for another pestering question that's been on my mind: What if I don't get accepted to Wright State; should I choose an MSW and work toward an LCSW or LMHC/LPC? I am not as interested in the course work that MSW's do, and I want to do counseling first and foremost. I've already experienced being in a program that doesn't interest me-- I am in a general master's program that I am transferring out of because I don't like research.

I don't think I care for social issues as much as I do psychological/individual issues. I don't want to help people apply for Medicare or Medicaid, don't want to work in social programs of the sort. I want to do clinical work, and I see the MSW program has many courses outside of that even if you are doing a clinical track.

The only thing is that I've heard MHCs are not really getting accepted by insurance companies and make significantly less money than MSW/LCSW. Can anybody speak for the prospects of mental health counselors or social workers? (I'm guessing you aren't in those programs, but maybe you know people who are or maybe you feel that it is a better choice than even a Psy D considering the smaller loan investment and more immediate emergence into the workforce.)

Basically, I'm asking what do you think of MSWs and LPCs? Which is better for jobs and money?

Thanks again, guys!!! Your support has been wonderful!

 

[clinpsych]

Basically, I'm asking what do you think of MSWs and LPCs? Which is better for jobs and money?

I would go for a MSW over a LPC and over most Psy.D. programs. The debt/income ratio is much more favorable than a Psy.D. program and you'd be less likely to have to incur the expense and disruption of uprooting your life for graduate school, internship, postdoc, etc. In my experience, there are far more job opportunities for MSWs than for LPCs.

 

[goodfella1]

Thanks clinpsych, I appreciate your feedback. But I am turned on to the Wright State program and I think if I get a shot to study there I will. I'm also excited about experiencing a new place with cheap rent. The debt shouldn't be as great there either and they have great APA internship rates so I think I'll have a fighting chance to make a good income and work where I'd like.

I am still considering MSWs and LPCs though, so thanks again for your input. Can anybody else comment?

 

[Psychadelic2012]

As for another pestering question that's been on my mind: What if I don't get accepted to Wright State; should I choose an MSW and work toward an LCSW or LMHC/LPC? I am not as interested in the course work that MSW's do, and I want to do counseling first and foremost. I've already experienced being in a program that doesn't interest me-- I am in a general master's program that I am transferring out of because I don't like research.

I don't think I care for social issues as much as I do psychological/individual issues. I don't want to help people apply for Medicare or Medicaid, don't want to work in social programs of the sort. I want to do clinical work, and I see the MSW program has many courses outside of that even if you are doing a clinical track.

The only thing is that I've heard MHCs are not really getting accepted by insurance companies and make significantly less money than MSW/LCSW. Can anybody speak for the prospects of mental health counselors or social workers? (I'm guessing you aren't in those programs, but maybe you know people who are or maybe you feel that it is a better choice than even a Psy D considering the smaller loan investment and more immediate emergence into the workforce.)

Basically, I'm asking what do you think of MSWs and LPCs? Which is better for jobs and money?

It seems to me like you are more counseling-oriented. A PsyD is totally overkill if you want to be a therapist exclusively--you will spend so much of your time focusing on research and psychological assessment, rather than doing what you really want to do. I'm just about to finish a licensable master's degree, but I'm going to a doctoral program because I don't want to do therapy primarily (I want to teach and do research, with a very small private consulting/testing practice on the side). If you're not like me, a master's degree will be just fine. You won't make much less than your doctoral-level colleagues, but you'll have much less debt to pay off. Insurance reimbursement varies depending on the state, but where I live it's almost identical to social work (with the exception of the low-paying Medicare!).

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I am in a general master's program that I am transferring out of because I don't like research.

If this is the case, then doctoral training is not for you. Considering a MHC or similar degree would be more appropriate for your goals.

 

[goodfella1]

Thanks again for your input. I think I am turned on to clinical research, though. I was in a general master's program that didn't focus on clinical issues; it focused on cognitive issues.

But your comments and suggestions are very helpful. Thanks so much!!!