Applying D.O. Anyway?

[Katatonic]

I apologize if this is a repeat thread!

I think I've come to the decision that come application time next summer, I'll apply to both M.D. and D.O. schools. However, I'm not sure whether this is a good idea simply because I have no interest in the osteopathic side of medicine. I don't mean that in a bad way, just a true way. I see both paths as equal and equivalent ways to becoming a knowledgeable physician. However, assuming that I might actually get an interview with a D.O. school, would I just get screened out as soon as they realized I'm not very passionate about the OMM principles and how they apply to medicine?

On the same note, are applicants like myself looked down on by other D.O. applicants as taking the seat of a student who actually loved the D.O. approach to medicine? Just curious, thanks for any opinions.

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[DrMattOglesby]

ya know...
if you get invited to interview, id really emphasize how passionate you are about being a doctor more than anything.
BUT you dont wanna get caught with your pants down, in which case i advise you to AT LEAST be knowledgeable about the profession's history and principles.

 

[nascardoc]

I apologize if this is a repeat thread!

I think I've come to the decision that come application time next summer, I'll apply to both M.D. and D.O. schools. However, I'm not sure whether this is a good idea simply because I have no interest in the osteopathic side of medicine. I don't mean that in a bad way, just a true way. I see both paths as equal and equivalent ways to becoming a knowledgeable physician. However, assuming that I might actually get an interview with a D.O. school, would I just get screened out as soon as they realized I'm not very passionate about the OMM principles and how they apply to medicine?

On the same note, are applicants like myself looked down on by other D.O. applicants as taking the seat of a student who actually loved the D.O. approach to medicine? Just curious, thanks for any opinions.

Well, the first thing that could be said is don't apply to DO schools if you don't want to be there. But others will say that it is just another way to become a doctor. Both of these mindsets are true, but you have to remember that you will learn OMM thruout your first 2 years, have to know it to pass boards and graduate, and use it during rotations (although to what extent I am not sure). Before I would tell you to not waste your money applying, I would like to know how much you have researched or know about OMM. Perhaps you need to or have shadowed a DO who uses it? Many people have a preconceived notion about OMM before they step foot in school or know how to use it. I would have to ask you answer these questions before giving further advice.

 

[Katatonic]

Well, the first thing that could be said is don't apply to DO schools if you don't want to be there. But others will say that it is just another way to become a doctor. Both of these mindsets are true, but you have to remember that you will learn OMM thruout your first 2 years, have to know it to pass boards and graduate, and use it during rotations (although to what extent I am not sure). Before I would tell you to not waste your money applying, I would like to know how much you have researched or know about OMM. Perhaps you need to or have shadowed a DO who uses it? Many people have a preconceived notion about OMM before they step foot in school or know how to use it. I would have to ask you answer these questions before giving further advice.

I completely agree with you that I have zero first-hand experience with OMM, nor have I shadowed a D.O. to see the applications of it. It's very possible that in the future I could be intrigued with the techniques. At the moment, I just view both types of schools as two nearly-identical pathways to becoming a doctor, which I AM passionate about. I was hoping to try and shadow a D.O. and an M.D. by the time I apply to get a better sense of how both operate day to day.

 

[BCLumas]

I apologize if this is a repeat thread!

I think I've come to the decision that come application time next summer, I'll apply to both M.D. and D.O. schools. However, I'm not sure whether this is a good idea simply because I have no interest in the osteopathic side of medicine.

Wow... umm, why would you even apply to a DO school if you don't believe in the philosophy? Let me guess, your stats aren't that good and you want a "fall back school" in case your MD schools don't let you in. You know what: that's pathetic. You have no interest, so don't apply. I have no problem with people applying to both pathways, but stating that you don't want to apply, but you're going to anyway is a simply asinine thought process. Do us all a favor and spend your money applying to more MD schools than DO.

I don't mean that in a bad way, just a true way. I see both paths as equal and equivalent ways to becoming a knowledgeable physician.

I don't care, we don't care, so nobody cares. The only people that start to back-track with the "equality" argument are those who don't really think the profession is equal. If you really saw it as equal then you really wouldn't see any problem with the DO philosophy and thus would not make the comment that you have "no interest."

However, assuming that I might actually get an interview with a D.O. school, would I just get screened out as soon as they realized I'm not very passionate about the OMM principles and how they apply to medicine?

Unfortunately for us and fortunately for you, no. What's hilarious is that you think that the only difference between allopathic and osteopathic medicine is OMM. If I were you I wouldn't waste my time applying because if you do get an interview, you'll fail. When they ask you what osteopathy is or why it is for you, simply mentioning OMM will make them look at you and say "Oh.. it's just another MD app using us as a back up that doesn't know what the real differences are." There are differences, especially in the philosophy and the way that Osetopathic physicians approach their patients. I recommend doing some research about the philosophy before you write off the DO route to medicine based upon a tool in OMM.

On the same note, are applicants like myself looked down on by other D.O. applicants as taking the seat of a student who actually loved the D.O. approach to medicine? Just curious, thanks for any opinions.

Yes. Absolutely. In fact, if I were to go to school with someone who hated the DO approach to medicine but just went there because they couldn't get in anywhere else, I'd be upset. I'd be upset because they're taking up a spot for someone who actually believes in the philosophy and cares about what they're learning.

All in all, my advice to you is don't apply DO. You don't know what you're getting into. We all can only hope that you get an MD acceptance so that you can discuss the "equality" between the two philosophies, even though you have absolutely zero idea what the heck you're talking about.

Good luck.

 

[TehDoc]

I'd go ahead and say don't apply because apparently you aren't interested and will have a bad experience learning even more principles on subjects you aren't interested in.

 

[Katatonic]

Wow... umm, why would you even apply to a DO school if you don't believe in the philosophy? Let me guess, your stats aren't that good and you want a "fall back school" in case your MD schools don't let you in. You know what: that's pathetic. You have no interest, so don't apply. I have no problem with people applying to both pathways, but stating that you don't want to apply, but you're going to anyway is a simply asinine thought process. Do us all a favor and spend your money applying to more MD schools than DO.



I don't care, we don't care, so nobody cares. The only people that start to back-track with the "equality" argument are those who don't really think the profession is equal. If you really saw it as equal then you really wouldn't see any problem with the DO philosophy and thus would not make the comment that you have "no interest."



Unfortunately for us and fortunately for you, no. What's hilarious is that you think that the only difference between allopathic and osteopathic medicine is OMM. If I were you I wouldn't waste my time applying because if you do get an interview, you'll fail. When they ask you what osteopathy is or why it is for you, simply mentioning OMM will make them look at you and say "Oh.. it's just another MD app using us as a back up that doesn't know what the real differences are." There are differences, especially in the philosophy and the way that Osetopathic physicians approach their patients. I recommend doing some research about the philosophy before you write off the DO route to medicine based upon a tool in OMM.



Yes. Absolutely. In fact, if I were to go to school with someone who hated the DO approach to medicine but just went there because they couldn't get in anywhere else, I'd be upset. I'd be upset because they're taking up a spot for someone who actually believes in the philosophy and cares about what they're learning.

All in all, my advice to you is don't apply DO. You don't know what you're getting into. We all can only hope that you get an MD acceptance so that you can discuss the "equality" between the two philosophies, even though you have absolutely zero idea what the heck you're talking about.

Good luck.

I think you took my post much differently than I intended. I do not "hate the DO approach to medicine". I do not think OMM is "the only difference between osteopathic and allopathic" medicine. I don't have terrible stats, I don't view DO schools as a backup, I don't think one is better than the other, and I don't have no interest in DO schools.

Please try to understand that I view both as equal paths to being a physician, which is my goal. The fact is that I don't view one way as superior to the other. That was my point. If I don't ONLY want to attend a DO school should I still apply to both. I would be elated to be accepted to a DO school. My main question is whether not being fascinated with the "philosophy" of it would be a big problem. I hope that was clearer, as I'm not trying to be offensive.

 

[Katatonic]

Also, to clarify, I AM trying to learn more about the philosophy of DO schools. I'm not adverse to it, since I am largely ignorant of it at the moment, but with how strong of a response I got I just wanted it clear that although I am not excited about it right now, I'm still trying to learn about it as well. So, I'm not just a bull-headed pre-med trying to get ahead, I'm trying to learn as much as I can about both before ACTUALLY applying so that I can make an informed decision.

 

[ShyRem]

I have a different question. Have you ever been to an acupuncturist? chiropractor? other "alternative medicine" type of care? And what did you think of it?

I had ZERO exposure to OMM when I applied. ZERO. Had no clue what it really entailed, just that it was manipulation of joints/muscles. No kidding. BUT: I had been to a chiropractor who discovered I had a slightly short leg (1/4") that was causing me hip pain. I had been to an acupuncturist (and admittedly was VERY skeptical and quite shocked when it actually worked).

When I applied to med school I was asked about my experience with DOs. I honestly stated that I had been in the medical field for 15 years and had known both DOs and MDs, and good and bad examples of both. I had worked alongside both. I was looking for a school that was a good fit for me and my family. The next question was whether I had ever been a patient of any "alternative" treatments and what I thought of them. And I then explained that my PCP, an MD, had done acupuncture on my back for myositis and I had found it worked faster than the muscle relaxers and lasted longer, without the doping side effects.

So here I am in an osteopathic med school. And I am quite happy here overall. Now, am I about to go and do an NMM residency? Probably not. Am I happy I learned OMM? Yup. Does it work for everything? Nope. Does it work well in the right situation for the right condition done by a skilled operator? Yup. (ok, except for cranial IMO). My husband, who at first said "You are NOT popping ANYTHING on me!" is now a total convert. He's not into HVLA, but he loves loves loves pretty much everything else, and has been very impressed with the results of treatment. Even counterstrain (which at first he said "what the *!&$ is this crap you're doing 'cuz there is NO way it's going to work").

I guess my point here is that you don't have to be "Mr./Ms. OMM" to apply to DO schools. You do have to have an open mind. And you have to decide if you want to be a physician, or an MD physician.

 

[endocardium]

My main question is whether not being fascinated with the "philosophy" of it would be a big problem.

Well, you are right on track, in my opinion. There is no "osteopathic philosophy," actually, although others may try to convince you that there is (mainly the AOA, some traditionalists, and overzealous premeds who choose to drink the Kool-aid). Well, it's pretty much all propaganda in this day and age. You are correct that both allopathic and osteopathic pathways are equivalent, with equivalent education and results, and the so-called differences between the two are almost negligible. The farther along you go, the more you will see that this is indeed the case. The "separate, distinct, but equal" mentality that the AOA creates around osteopathic medicine has been outmoded by modern medicine. From a historical perspective, they were once different and separate, but now both practice medicine to the same standard of care. A minority of DO's still use OMM regularly and it is way over-emphasized as a distinction between the two traditions. However, it does remain one of the more tangible differences between the two.

All that being said, you have to learn to play the game. You shouldn't dissemble by any means, but you need to feel out the appropriate ways to frame your responses. Some osteopathic medical schools aren't all that gungho about the so-called "osteopathic philosophy," but others are more firm about it. However, all of them are going to want you to know what you are getting yourself into. They want you to have a demonstrable knowledge of modern osteopathic medicine, it's history and tradition, and it's "philosophy." You would do well to learn about it, including even shadowing a DO, one that practices OMM, if you can, but it isn't necessary. These things would go a long way toward demonstrating your appreciation of osteopathic medicine. There's no need for you to be a die hard fan, but you have to appreciate it and be informed.

 

[Anton Chigurh]

Have you shadowed a DO yet? I used this experience to talk about the positive and negative aspects of OMM when I was asked the "why DO" question. If you still feel as if you disagree with some or all principles of OMM after shadowing, then by all means bring them up during the interview. I felt that my interviewers appreciated my honesty and my attempt to justify my opinions regarding OMM.

 

[TexasTriathlete]

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that most people who go to DO schools only because they didn't get into an MD school, and didn't really have an interest in being a DO, will quickly change their perspective on the matter once classes start and they realize how ****ing hard it all is.
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[endocardium]

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that most people who go to DO schools only because they didn't get into an MD school, and didn't really have an interest in being a DO, will quickly change their perspective on the matter once classes start and they realize how ****ing hard it all is.
Posted via Mobile Device

That reminds me: medical school is freaking hard, any way you slice it, osteopathic or allopathic (naturally, since they are equivalent programs). However, if you don't like OMM, then you will have more to endure for two years, as you go through medical school hell. It's more stuff you don't have to deal with, if you already think that OMM is not something you care to learn, or at least appreciate. Personally, if I fell into that group (I don't), I'd regroup and try again, applying to exclusively allopathic institutions. Otherwise, you are setting yourself up for additional, unnecessary stress. If you think it's acceptable, in order to make your dream of becoming a physician come true, then by all means, go forward, applying to both types of programs. However, don't come back all bitter and disenchanted. You were warned.

 

[nascardoc]

I completely agree with you that I have zero first-hand experience with OMM, nor have I shadowed a D.O. to see the applications of it. It's very possible that in the future I could be intrigued with the techniques. At the moment, I just view both types of schools as two nearly-identical pathways to becoming a doctor, which I AM passionate about. I was hoping to try and shadow a D.O. and an M.D. by the time I apply to get a better sense of how both operate day to day.

Also, to clarify, I AM trying to learn more about the philosophy of DO schools. I'm not adverse to it, since I am largely ignorant of it at the moment, but with how strong of a response I got I just wanted it clear that although I am not excited about it right now, I'm still trying to learn about it as well. So, I'm not just a bull-headed pre-med trying to get ahead, I'm trying to learn as much as I can about both before ACTUALLY applying so that I can make an informed decision.

Your posts were a little confusing b/c at first you said you have no interest in osteopathic philosophy and then you go on saying you are learning it, so that is probably why you got a stronger response back. You need to look in to the philosophy b/c whether or not a difference really exists is not as relevant as you are going to be asked about it.

I have a different question. Have you ever been to an acupuncturist? chiropractor? other "alternative medicine" type of care? And what did you think of it?

I had ZERO exposure to OMM when I applied. ZERO. Had no clue what it really entailed, just that it was manipulation of joints/muscles. No kidding. BUT: I had been to a chiropractor who discovered I had a slightly short leg (1/4") that was causing me hip pain. I had been to an acupuncturist (and admittedly was VERY skeptical and quite shocked when it actually worked).

When I applied to med school I was asked about my experience with DOs. I honestly stated that I had been in the medical field for 15 years and had known both DOs and MDs, and good and bad examples of both. I had worked alongside both. I was looking for a school that was a good fit for me and my family. The next question was whether I had ever been a patient of any "alternative" treatments and what I thought of them. And I then explained that my PCP, an MD, had done acupuncture on my back for myositis and I had found it worked faster than the muscle relaxers and lasted longer, without the doping side effects.

So here I am in an osteopathic med school. And I am quite happy here overall. Now, am I about to go and do an NMM residency? Probably not. Am I happy I learned OMM? Yup. Does it work for everything? Nope. Does it work well in the right situation for the right condition done by a skilled operator? Yup. (ok, except for cranial IMO). My husband, who at first said "You are NOT popping ANYTHING on me!" is now a total convert. He's not into HVLA, but he loves loves loves pretty much everything else, and has been very impressed with the results of treatment. Even counterstrain (which at first he said "what the *!&$ is this crap you're doing 'cuz there is NO way it's going to work").

I guess my point here is that you don't have to be "Mr./Ms. OMM" to apply to DO schools. You do have to have an open mind. And you have to decide if you want to be a physician, or an MD physician.

One of the best posts I've seen in awhile. I agree 100%. I was in the same boat myself. I didn't know a lot about OMM before school started and never had any "alternative treatments" before, but I was interested in seeing what it had to offer and I was very open to the possibilities.

Well, you are right on track, in my opinion. There is no "osteopathic philosophy," actually, although others may try to convince you that there is (mainly the AOA, some traditionalists, and overzealous premeds who choose to drink the Kool-aid). Well, it's pretty much all propaganda in this day and age. You are correct that both allopathic and osteopathic pathways are equivalent, with equivalent education and results, and the so-called differences between the two are almost negligible. The farther along you go, the more you will see that this is indeed the case. The "separate, distinct, but equal" mentality that the AOA creates around osteopathic medicine has been outmoded by modern medicine. From a historical perspective, they were once different and separate, but now both practice medicine to the same standard of care. A minority of DO's still use OMM regularly and it is way over-emphasized as a distinction between the two traditions. However, it does remain one of the more tangible differences between the two.

All that being said, you have to learn to play the game. You shouldn't dissemble by any means, but you need to feel out the appropriate ways to frame your responses. Some osteopathic medical schools aren't all that gungho about the so-called "osteopathic philosophy," but others are more firm about it. However, all of them are going to want you to know what you are getting yourself into. They want you to have a demonstrable knowledge of modern osteopathic medicine, it's history and tradition, and it's "philosophy." You would do well to learn about it, including even shadowing a DO, one that practices OMM, if you can, but it isn't necessary. These things would go a long way toward demonstrating your appreciation of osteopathic medicine. There's no need for you to be a die hard fan, but you have to appreciate it and be informed.

That reminds me: medical school is freaking hard, any way you slice it, osteopathic or allopathic (naturally, since they are equivalent programs). However, if you don't like OMM, then you will have more to endure for two years, as you go through medical school hell. It's more stuff you don't have to deal with, if you already think that OMM is not something you care to learn, or at least appreciate. Personally, if I fell into that group (I don't), I'd regroup and try again, applying to exclusively allopathic institutions. Otherwise, you are setting yourself up for additional, unnecessary stress. If you think it's acceptable, in order to make your dream of becoming a physician come true, then by all means, go forward, applying to both types of programs. However, don't come back all bitter and disenchanted. You were warned.

Great posts as well!

 

[Katatonic]

Sorry about the confusion nascardoc, I could have put my way of thinking more clearly. I agree though, these are some great, helpful posts, thank you all so much.

 

[rddoms]

I am in an unusual situation. I first learned of osteopathic medicine as a sophomore in undergrad. I met a resident who graduated from my current school, and she sold me on DO. It wasn't really for anything more than her personality. She was doing a residency in a great allopathic program, yet she treated me like an equal. She had nothing but wonderful things to say about her med school experience, and she was as smart as anyone else. At the end of undergrad, I had some reservations about osteopathic medicine because I didn't know any better! I decided to apply for a spot in the MS degree program at KCOM, and haven't looked back. I took biochem I, Phys. I and II, and neurosci I with the medical students, and was the guinea pig for my DO classmates when they were practicing for OMM. This experience made me desire a spot in the DO class of 2012 at KCOM! By the way, I start school in August, and couldn't be happier!

If I were you, I would shadow a DO who does OMM, as well as a DO who does some other specialty. You may or may not really be interested in OMM, but you never know until you see it in action/ have it done to you.

Either way, good luck and start applying soon.

 

[Bond8204]

I think some parts of the thread have come across as a little too defensive (BCLumas, there was no reason to come off snippy like that).

I liked ShyRem's post a lot, and I think it applies most to the situation.

As the OP has reiterated, he(?) doesn't HATE OMM--he just has no exposure to it or is neutral to it. I would have been happy doing either MD or DO. To me, OMM isn't something I think I'll use a whole lot, but who knows--I haven't taken my first class yet! I'm just going to try to excel at it like I will every other course and maybe I'll learn a few cool things along the way (I fully plan on coming back to my friends and being like "Check this out!"....unless that's discouraged ).

Look, OP, here's what it comes down to: There's absolutely nothing wrong with you wanting to become a doctor and considering the DO route even though you're not inspired by the DO "philosophy" (put in quotes on purpose) or OMM.

Point 1) I wouldn't talk like that during DO interviews. I would talk about why you want to go into medicine and if they ask 'Why DO?' I would talk about a good personal experience with one (if you don't have that yet, get it).

Point 2) I think maybe the reason people got snippy around here is because inevitably in October through February, there will be posts on both the allo and osteo board along the lines of "Take DO acceptance or reapply?" If you think you will become one of these people, then the snippiness is well-founded. There are plenty of people who would kill to be in a position like that--so threads like that are a real eye-roller. Obviously if you feel you might become one of them, the above is right--don't apply in the first place.

If you feel you'd be perfectly happy attending a DO school if you don't get into higher choice MD schools (my situation) I don't see anything wrong with that. Either way, I think you should try to get some DO experience--shadow 2 hours a week every other week or something.

Edit: Nascardoc did a great job above of organizing the good posts on here. I didn't read that before I posted.

 

[gasapple]

Well, I hate to bump this thread (granted, there are some very decent responses from the "crew") however, based on the title and the OPs opening remarks, it came across as an "eye-roller" thread to me - at least initially. I think people should take more care in how they phrase things, especially as it relates to our chosen and awesome profession, osteopathic medicine; osteopathic physicians are second to none. That's all I've got and I *do* realize these are apprehensive pre-meds (of which I'm still technically classified). I see no reason to reprimand BCLumas, the tone of this thread is going to come across differently to all of us.

To address the OPs concern more directly, I agree that he should shadow a few DOs in various settings. All I know is I shadowed DOs in private practice as well as outstanding DO Attendings (some were Special Forces docs, but that's a story for another time) at major trauma centers. I was/am hooked as a result of those experiences, too.

 

[Bond8204]

I guess this thread comes down to the classic "Do I have to love osteopathy in order to go to DO school?" The general answer to those threads, from what I've gathered is "Not per se, but you'll be spending a whole lot of time doing it so you sure as heck shouldn't hate it or disrespect it."

I mean, Gas, when you shadowed those DO's, was it their "holistic way of approaching the patient as an integrated whole?" etc etc? Or was it more that they were damn good, well-respected doctors? I mean, personally that's what turned the light green for me--seeing some very good DO's in action and going "oh. so it is legitimate. prejudice broken." It had nothing to do with philosophy or OMM.

I dunno...there's always purists on the subject so there will always be those who disagree. I think as long as you enter osteopathic med school without a disrespect for its principles, you'll probably get along just fine.

 

[gasapple]

For me, it was definitely the latter - they were damn good, well-respected doctors.

I was also able to watch them teach/question (on occasion, OWN ) med students - and this trauma center was a teaching hospital attached to an allo institution.

We're on the same page. Nice post Bond.

 

[Katatonic]

Point 2) I think maybe the reason people got snippy around here is because inevitably in October through February, there will be posts on both the allo and osteo board along the lines of "Take DO acceptance or reapply?" If you think you will become one of these people, then the snippiness is well-founded. There are plenty of people who would kill to be in a position like that--so threads like that are a real eye-roller. Obviously if you feel you might become one of them, the above is right--don't apply in the first place.

If you feel you'd be perfectly happy attending a DO school if you don't get into higher choice MD schools (my situation) I don't see anything wrong with that. Either way, I think you should try to get some DO experience--shadow 2 hours a week every other week or something.

I can see how that would be really frustrating to hear all the time. I don't see myself doing that, as I would gladly take a DO acceptance in a heart-beat. And no worries about BCLumas' response, I can see now that I worded my initial post wrong in certain places and probably came across as not appreciating osteopathic medicine at all, which is not true.

 

[nascardoc]

I guess this thread comes down to the classic "Do I have to love osteopathy in order to go to DO school?" The general answer to those threads, from what I've gathered is "Not per se, but you'll be spending a whole lot of time doing it so you sure as heck shouldn't hate it or disrespect it."

I mean, Gas, when you shadowed those DO's, was it their "holistic way of approaching the patient as an integrated whole?" etc etc? Or was it more that they were damn good, well-respected doctors? I mean, personally that's what turned the light green for me--seeing some very good DO's in action and going "oh. so it is legitimate. prejudice broken." It had nothing to do with philosophy or OMM.

I dunno...there's always purists on the subject so there will always be those who disagree. I think as long as you enter osteopathic med school without a disrespect for its principles, you'll probably get along just fine.

This is very interesting. I will say this. When I applied to med schools the first time, someone mentioned applying to osteopathic schools. I had no idea what they were b/c I had never heard of them. Because of that, I thought they were lower on the totem pole than MD's. When I started shadowing docs, I wasn't specifically looking for a DO, just ER docs to follow. As I shadowed more, I began to really click with the one doc and it wasn't until the 3rd day of working with him that I happened to find out he was a DO. I was like, "Oh, cool. I guess they are equal to MD's." That is all I needed and had absolutely no apprehension in applying to osteopathic schools...in fact, I was looking forward to it.

 

[spazzz]

i am so happy i don't have to deal with this kind of stuff anymore