Applying for PP jobs

[bluecolourskies]

I am exploring jobs and seeing some PP positions in group practices that don't list a salary. Is it rude to email asking for salary before I apply? Seems like this shouldn't be a surprise at the interview and I should know this up front.

Do people typically negotiate salaries? HOW DOES THIS ALL WORK??

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[summerbabe]

Is it rude to email asking for salary before I apply?

Nope. If a place decides not to interview you based on this, it’s probably not the most ideal place to work.

Seems like this shouldn't be a surprise at the interview and I should know this up front.

Some places definitely do this on purpose to try to gain the upper hand.

Do people typically negotiate salaries?

Always, unless it’s like a federal job tied to a set payscale. But even then, you should still negotiate for things like specific hours you’d like to work, hiring incentives, etc.

HOW DOES THIS ALL WORK??

This is capitalism in action. Your labor is valuable and if you undersell your labor (e.g., take lower than what your specific market could offer, don’t negotiate, are not willing to turn down a bad offer, etc), you will likely be underpaid.

Some people willingly take lesser paying jobs for all kinds of rationale reasons (like doing a postdoc) but it’s one thing to do it willingly versus unintentionally because you don’t know better.

I’ve never been in PP so I can’t speak any specifics but I’ve seen a ton of old threads on what’s fair/unfair, common/uncommon and the general business side of PP. Good luck!

 

[bluecolourskies]

Nope. If a place decides not to interview you based on this, it’s probably not the most ideal place to work.

Some places definitely do this on purpose to try to gain the upper hand.

Always, unless it’s like a federal job tied to a set payscale. But even then, you should still negotiate for things like specific hours you’d like to work, hiring incentives, etc.

This is capitalism in action. Your labor is valuable and if you undersell your labor (e.g., take lower than what your specific market could offer, don’t negotiate, are not willing to turn down a bad offer, etc), you will likely be underpaid.

Some people willingly take lesser paying jobs for all kinds of rationale reasons (like doing a postdoc) but it’s one thing to do it willingly versus unintentionally because you don’t know better.

I’ve never been in PP so I can’t speak any specifics but I’ve seen a ton of old threads on what’s fair/unfair, common/uncommon and the general business side of PP. Good luck!

Wow, I appreciate the detailed response! Thank you

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Agreed with the above: always negotiate and always read your contract, especially with a private practice, where you may be less well-protected than in a large hospital or university setting (e.g., somewhere that has an HR department, a union, etc.).

That's not to say all PPs are dangerous, of course. There's just more potential for variability in their policies, your job requirements, etc. On the flip side, there may also be more flexibility in negotiations because they aren't necessarily tied to all the same hiring policies as larger organizations.

At the very least, look through salary surveys relevant to your area (e.g., APA and AACN both have them available, although I think APA's may be a bit dated at this point). If you have friends/colleagues in the area, you can reach out to them to see if they're willing to share their pay. You can also run the numbers for yourself based on whatever the PP's requirements are in terms of numbers of patients you see and how much you would then be bringing in vs. what you suspect costs may be for your benefits and any supports the practice is offering.

 

[Sanman]

To add to this, PP will not always offer you a salary. Often it will be a percentage split based on how many patients you want to see. Be prepared for that.

 

[WisNeuro]

To add to this, PP will not always offer you a salary. Often it will be a percentage split based on how many patients you want to see. Be prepared for that.

Yeah, I was going to say, not listing a salary for PP isn't necessarily a red flag. It will vary wildly based on what clinical care you plan on delivering (e.g., individual therapy, group, assessment, mix of all) and what kind of set up there is at the clinic. For example I know of some clinics that offer either a salary or a split.

Personally, I'd apply regardless. It'll give you some experience in the process and possibly in negotiation. So, even if you ultimately pass on the offer, the time you spent could still be very worthwhile.

 

[foreverbull]

I am exploring jobs and seeing some PP positions in group practices that don't list a salary. Is it rude to email asking for salary before I apply? Seems like this shouldn't be a surprise at the interview and I should know this up front.

Do people typically negotiate salaries? HOW DOES THIS ALL WORK??

I agree with others—it’s not rude at all because you want to know if the time you spend will be worth it. One company that I reached out to advertised a certain rate for evaluations per hour, but upon further questioning via email, I found out that they didn’t reimburse for writing time at all, so the hourly pay was just for eval interview time, making the pay extremely low for the total hours required. These are things you need to know before going as far as writing a cover letter, interviewing, etc.

As @Sanman said, you may not get a set amount offer but a split/percentage. I’ve seen group practices offer 50/50 for early career folks with no benefits but an office and helping with insurance paneling—that’s very low and borderline exploitative. Make sure you take the time to calculate what the actual income will be (and estimate that with the average insurance rate in your area if you plan to take it) and don’t just trust their numbers. They will estimate based on a very high caseload to make the numbers look overly-rosy (“you can make $100k!”—yeah, if you see 40 clients per week and never take a day off….). Seeing about 20-25 clients per week is considered “full-time” in private practice given the admin time unaccounted for, so make sure your estimates reflect that.

You can always check back in here with more questions that arise.

 

[psych.meout]

Isn't not listing salary just a regular job thing? Employers will purposefully not disclose the real salary range if they don't have to (e.g., if they are a public entity that legally has to do it) so that they have the upper hand over you with the hopes that you'll inadvertently lowball yourself at the low end of what they would actually pay?

 

[WisNeuro]

Isn't not listing salary just a regular job thing? Employers will purposefully not disclose the real salary range if they don't have to (e.g., if they are a public entity that legally has to do it) so that they have the upper hand over you with the hopes that you'll inadvertently lowball yourself at the low end of what they would actually pay?

It's common, yes, but considering clinical psych jobs vary quite a bit, I wouldn't list anything specific if I were hiring either, unless I had a very specific set of criteria of what I was hiring for (e.g., individual therapy at 28-32 contact hours/week).

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Anecdotally, I've started seeing more jobs coming across listservs that are providing salary ranges, although they also seem to be geared more toward folks with at least a few years' experience (could be selection bias on my part). So it may be gaining some momentum.

And yes, for PP, it could be tough for them to provide a specific number. But once you're negotiating, I would hope they could at least give you a range or, at the absolute least, what your split would be and from which potential revenue sources.