Applying to competitive ACGME IM programs

[Stedari]

OMS4 hoping to get the best IM match possible with the goal of pursuing heme/onc afterwards. I was wondering if any competitive applicants (present or past) would share their experience in applying to top 30 IM programs in the country.

I really like the idea of breaking into programs that haven't taken D.O.'s before. Everyone always says to look at current residents, but I figure someone has to be the first, right? Even if I don't get in, it might be worth putting a good application on the table. Maybe these programs can slowly be desensitized/lured into considering a D.O?

I would be especially grateful if anyone could share their experience with the following programs:
Mayo-Rochester
Yale- Primary Care
U Colorado
Georgetown
OSU
U South Carolina
Wash U StL
Baylor
UVA
Maryland
Johns Hopkins Bayview

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[Dharma]

Looks like that Yale program has
PGY1 D.O. NYCOM. I believe Mayo has had D.O.s. Maybe Baylor too? Regardless, if you have USMLE that will outdo your M.D. colleagues and solid LORs some of those places may give you a sniff. I say apply and see what happens.

 

[Dharma]

Georgetown has a bunch.

 

[Stedari]

Step 1 250, Step 2 >265, but I have no research. Definitely applying. I just wanted any input/program suggestion that you guys had.

 

[laconfidential]

Your list is odd...not really sure what you're getting at (meaning it's not a list of top 30 programs ).

Mayo, Gtown, OSU, USC all have DOs.
Maryland and UVA think their s*** don't stink so nope. Pretty sure UVA won't even take DO students for audition rotations.
Not sure about the others, but most ACGME programs list their residents and schools. Do some research.

And as for breaking into those places that don't have DOs: you better kill Step 1, have connections, or do an audition that blows them away. You have to be absolutely better than their applicant pool in every possible way, and even then you're not matching at MGH.

 

[Stedari]

Your list is odd...not really sure what you're getting at (meaning it's not a list of top 30 programs ).

Mayo, Gtown, OSU, USC all have DOs.
Maryland and UVA think their s*** don't stink so nope. Pretty sure UVA won't even take DO students for audition rotations.
Not sure about the others, but most ACGME programs list their residents and schools. Do some research.

And as for breaking into those places that don't have DOs: you better kill Step 1, have connections, or do an audition that blows them away. You have to be absolutely better than their applicant pool in every possible way, and even then you're not matching at MGH.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to list a ranking of programs. These are just ones I am interested in and that are competitive. Hearing that places "think their s*** don't stink" meaning they are above DOs is sort of what I was looking for. Sharing first-hand accounts instead of propagating perceived discrimination would be more ideal.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

Sorry, I wasn't trying to list a ranking of programs. These are just ones I am interested in and that are competitive. Hearing that places "think their s*** don't stink" meaning they are above DOs is sort of what I was looking for. Sharing first-hand accounts instead of propagating perceived discrimination would be more ideal.

I am on your side. The more frequently we push stellar apps their way, the greater the chance that one day we can make the record.

 

[rjgennarelli]

Have a look at UCSF: http://medicine.ucsf.edu/education/residency/current/

Good luck trailblazer!

 

[235009]

OMS4 hoping to get the best IM match possible with the goal of pursuing heme/onc afterwards. I was wondering if any competitive applicants (present or past) would share their experience in applying to top 30 IM programs in the country.

I really like the idea of breaking into programs that haven't taken D.O.'s before. Everyone always says to look at current residents, but I figure someone has to be the first, right? Even if I don't get in, it might be worth putting a good application on the table. Maybe these programs can slowly be desensitized/lured into considering a D.O?

I would be especially grateful if anyone could share their experience with the following programs:
Mayo-Rochester
Yale- Primary Care
U Colorado
Georgetown
OSU
U South Carolina
Wash U StL
Baylor
UVA
Maryland
Johns Hopkins Bayview

I'm very confused by this post. First you ask about top 30 programs then you don't list any. Many of the programs you listed are not that competitive. Mayo, a solid program, is in the middle of nowhere so has trouble attracting good applicants. Georgetown has IMGs and is not highly regarded. Almost all the others are open to DOs and not that competitive (except Yale PC, UVA, UMD). With regards to actual top 30 or even top 50 programs you'll be hard pressed to find any that will even look at your app (sorry). There is a running list of DO friendly (or was it unfriendly) IM programs somewhere

 

[rjgennarelli]

I'm very confused by this post. First you ask about top 30 programs then you don't list any. Many of the programs you listed are not that competitive. Mayo, a solid program, is in the middle of nowhere so has trouble attracting good applicants. Georgetown has IMGs and is not highly regarded. Almost all the others are open to DOs and not that competitive (except Yale PC, UVA, UMD). With regards to actual top 30 or even top 50 programs you'll be hard pressed to find any that will even look at your app (sorry). There is a running list of DO friendly (or was it unfriendly) IM programs somewhere

I completely disagree. PDs are changing out at nearly a yearly basis. It would be naive to say that none of these programs, which have ignored DO applicants in the past might be interested in admitting an excellent DO applicant. After all, the programs that do admit DOs had to start somewhere, right?

 

[Petypet]

FWIW I contacted a few "competitive programs (n = 2)" in regards to general surgery, and was pleasantly surprised when they said "we do accept osteopaths with good score, however we just haven't matched many. I asked their PD why and they both commented on the grounds that it was likely the few students they ranked probably went through the AOA match or they matched at another acgme. I was even encouraged to apply to one of the gen surg programs with my scores and publications with them saying I was more than competitive.

Some competitive programs are likely open to DO's just none have risked it because of the lack of DOs in previous years.

Stay thirsty and aim high.

 

[235009]

I completely disagree. PDs are changing out at nearly a yearly basis. It would be naive to say that none of these programs, which have ignored DO applicants in the past might be interested in admitting an excellent DO applicant. After all, the programs that do admit DOs had to start somewhere, right?

Those competitive IM programs have their pick of the litter when it comes to US MD applicants. IM is becoming more popular every year and those programs are able to fill their rosters with superstar US MD grads (and FMGs in some cases) several times over that they don't need to explore what else is out there. In fact a particular mid tier historically DO friendly program in the northeast no longer takes DOs and another has been matching fewer every year. These programs know that perception matters. There's another community program in the northeast that matches exclusively US MDs when it can easily fill it's class with higher performing DO applicants.

Not saying don't apply or trying to discourage anyone just making sure you have real information to make an informed and realistic decision. Note that few PDs would flat out tell you they won't look at or rank/match DO applicants. Actions speak louder than words.

 

[Dharma]

The discrimination exists and it's not going anywhere anytime soon. This is how it is and a similar sentiment is also extended to grads from lower tier MD schools as well for the most part. Apply away though. Fortunately, the ivory towers of academic medicine are not the only places to find solid training to practice solid medicine.

 

[235009]

The discrimination exists and it's not going anywhere anytime soon. This is how it is and a similar sentiment is also extended to grads from lower tier MD schools as well for the most part. Apply away though. Fortunately, the ivory towers of academic medicine are not the only places to find solid training to practice solid medicine.

We need not go any further than the link to the UCSF house staff list posted earlier in this thread to disprove your claim about "low tier" US MD schools. One of their interns is from meharry and there are several from schools ranked < 60 or unranked. Not saying those people didn't have to be stellar applicants but it's certainly not impossible like it is for DO grads.

 

[Dharma]

We need not go any further than the link to the UCSF house staff list posted earlier in this thread to disprove your claim about "low tier" US MD schools. One of their interns is from meharry and there are several from schools ranked < 60 or unranked. Not saying those people didn't have to be stellar applicants but it's certainly not impossible like it is for DO grads.

Hence "for the most part" in my comment. But yeah, I agree that DO grads in a much tougher position, no doubt.

 

[user3]

The discrimination exists and it's not going anywhere anytime soon. This is how it is and a similar sentiment is also extended to grads from lower tier MD schools as well for the most part. Apply away though. Fortunately, the ivory towers of academic medicine are not the only places to find solid training to practice solid medicine.

Do you think the competitive AOA programs will be as "discriminatory" to MD's once they can apply?

 

[DrEnderW]

Do you think the competitive AOA programs will be as "discriminatory" to MD's once they can apply?

DO students should sure hope they are.

I think there will be some inherent preference by DO PDs for DOs in the competitive specialties. All these PDs were essentially denied access to ACGME training in their speciality and many may have been denied ACGME fellowships. That's really an emotional reaction and a desire to keep DOs in their specialties (self-preservation), so who knows. It's all speculation.

The one thing I would like to point out is that there likely won't be many competitive MD students highly ranking former AOA programs. For example, an ortho program with 2 spots/yr in a 230 bed hospital an hour from a major city with limited research isn't going to attract highly academic, top MD applicants that would additionally have to complete a lengthy OMM requirement. Also, keep in mind that many programs will be on the ACGME accreditation pathway before there is a combined match, which does not have even a planned date yet.

I don't want to derail this thread tho - back to ACGME IM programs.

 

[JimmyB123]

Your list is odd...not really sure what you're getting at (meaning it's not a list of top 30 programs ).

Mayo, Gtown, OSU, USC all have DOs.
Maryland and UVA think their s*** don't stink so nope. Pretty sure UVA won't even take DO students for audition rotations.
Not sure about the others, but most ACGME programs list their residents and schools. Do some research.

And as for breaking into those places that don't have DOs: you better kill Step 1, have connections, or do an audition that blows them away. You have to be absolutely better than their applicant pool in every possible way, and even then you're not matching at MGH.

Mayo and USC don't have DOs in IM.

 

[laconfidential]

Mayo and USC don't have DOs in IM.

South Carolina (not the other one) does.

I've got firsthand knowledge that there is at least one DO at Mayo.

 

[AMEHigh]

Do you think the competitive AOA programs will be as "discriminatory" to MD's once they can apply?

Yes

 

[DrWBD]

OMS4 hoping to get the best IM match possible with the goal of pursuing heme/onc afterwards. I was wondering if any competitive applicants (present or past) would share their experience in applying to top 30 IM programs in the country.

I really like the idea of breaking into programs that haven't taken D.O.'s before. Everyone always says to look at current residents, but I figure someone has to be the first, right? Even if I don't get in, it might be worth putting a good application on the table. Maybe these programs can slowly be desensitized/lured into considering a D.O?

DOs get into 'competitive' ACGME IM residencies either because:
1. They know someone
2. The program doesn't get enough American MD applicants for the program director to comfortably fill all the slots, and the PD doesn't want to take a chance in the scramble.

 

[JimmyB123]

DOs get into 'competitive' ACGME IM residencies either because:
1. They know someone
2. The program doesn't get enough American MD applicants for the program director to comfortably fill all the slots, and the PD doesn't want to take a chance in the scramble.

So basically you're saying if you're a DO, you're not matching competitive ACGME IM.

 

[DrEnderW]

So basically you're saying if you're a DO, you're not matching competitive ACGME IM.

"Competitive" warrants some explanation for IM. It's completely reasonable to match a mid-tier university program if you're a solid applicant. Those are solid programs with opportunity for fellowships and research .

There are some places, such as NYU, that blatantly do not take DOs. There are many top-tier places that haven't in the past either.

 

[235009]

"Competitive" warrants some explanation for IM. It's completely reasonable to match a mid-tier university program if you're a solid applicant. Those are solid programs with opportunity for fellowships and research .

There are some places, such as NYU, that blatantly do not take DOs. There are many top-tier places that haven't in the past either.

"Solid applicant" is downplaying it quite a bit! To match into a mid-tier university program you would need to be one of the top DOs in the country barring any special connections.

In another thread (post below) I pointed out that only 10% of PCOM graduates who matched IM did so at a university program. Of those only one was at a program many would characterize as mid-tier.

Are those match lists supposed to prove your point or disprove the previous poster's point? Because they do neither.

Looking at the PCOM list....at the philly campus only 3/60 IM matches are at university hospitals (2 at Penn State and 1 at Wright State), that's 5% ....if you throw in the med-peds matches the number goes up to 5/65 (LA state and Stony Brook) which is still < 10%. The Georgia campus needed a little more digging because they use the disingenuous tactic of not explicitly saying that the match is actually at a university affiliated community program (if you look at the resident rosters of U Pitt and U Chicago you'll see that there are no DOs, let alone PCOM graduates, at either program) so the total number of IM university program matches at that program is 3/17 (Georgetown, OK state, Wayne State) which is ~18%. Putting it all together you get 8/82 which is just under 10%! Mind you this is the match list of one of best, if not the best, DO school so if you actually "do a little homework" you see that @medaman1 was actually right! As you said the match lists are out there and google is your friend.

EDIT: for the sake of comparison at my alma mater which is a state school ranked outside the top 50 80% of the IM matches were at university programs with a few at "elite" programs (UCSF, columbia, cornell, etc).

 

[Dharma]

"Solid applicant" is downplaying it quite a bit! To match into a mid-tier university program you would need to be one of the top DOs in the country barring any special connections.

I think that's a stretch. The quotes you mentioned above (from a previous thread) oversimplify the matter and fail to take self-selection into account. I don't think anyone will disagree that the D.O. applicant is at a disadvantage in terms of the match compared to an M.D. counterpart, but to say that you need to be one of the top D.O.'s in the country to match mid-tier IM seems a bit asinine. Quote all the stats you want, it doesn't prove your point, nor does it take into consideration the vast amounts of self-selection that occurs.

Point being kids (other readers), bust your rump and let it rip… Don't believe the hype (and that's both ends of the spectrum).

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

"Solid applicant" is downplaying it quite a bit! To match into a mid-tier university program you would need to be one of the top DOs in the country barring any special connections.

In another thread (post below) I pointed out that only 10% of PCOM graduates who matched IM did so at a university program. Of those only one was at a program many would characterize as mid-tier.

A few minutes in the IM forum says otherwise. Not sure why people get such pleasure spreading ignorant statements.

 

[235009]

I think that's a stretch. The quotes you mentioned above (from a previous thread) oversimplify the matter and fail to take self-selection into account. I don't think anyone will disagree that the D.O. applicant is at a disadvantage in terms of the match compared to an M.D. counterpart, but to say that you need to be one of the top D.O.'s in the country to match mid-tier IM seems a bit asinine. Quote all the stats you want, it doesn't prove your point, nor does it take into consideration the vast amounts of self-selection that occurs.

Point being kids (other readers), bust your rump and let it rip… Don't believe the hype (and that's both ends of the spectrum).

so what you're saying is 90% of the students at that school applying medicine wouldn't have taken a spot at a university program in the same geographic location if they were offered it? All those people going to community programs in and around philly would have turned down drexel, jefferson, temple? Ok then.

A few minutes in the IM forum says otherwise. Not sure why people get such pleasure spreading ignorant statements.

Since you're so familiar with the IM forum you should've seen me there.... a lot. Feel free to post a link that argues against what I just said instead of blowing smoke. I tried looking through the 2014 match outcomes thread and couldn't find any DOs who matched at mid tier programs posting there. In fact there are only 3 who posted. The two who actually said where they matched did so at low-tier/less competitive university programs (UT Houston and Wake Forest). http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/official-2014-im-match-results.1061396/

 

[sylvanthus]

Ehhh its N=1, but I matched at what would likely be seen as a mid-tier program.

 

[Dharma]

so what you're saying is 90% of the students at that school applying medicine wouldn't have taken a spot at a university program in the same geographic location if they were offered it? All those people going to community programs in and around philly would have turned down drexel, jefferson, temple? Ok then.

I don't know man. I'm just saying your comment was a bit over the top. But you do seem to care a lot about D.O.s. Why is that?

 

[Dharma]

Ehhh its N=1, but I matched at what would likely be seen as a mid-tier program.

Well, you must've been "one of the top D.O.s in the country." Congrats

 

[235009]

Ehhh its N=1, but I matched at what would likely be seen as a mid-tier program.

Well, you must've been "one of the top D.O.s in the country." Congrats

yea, this guy was a schmuck .....oh wait just kidding he was one of the top DOs in the country....

I was at the top of my DO school class, had a 250 step 1 258 step 2, excellent ECs (national leadership positions, ED tech for 7 years, etc), a 732 comlex 1 688 comlex 2, and I can tell you that I was flat out rejected by residency programs purely because I was a DO. Also, I applied to roughly twice as many places as MDs with lower stats to end up with the same number of interviews. So, yes, going MD, is generally a better idea. I did well, and ended up one of a handful of DOs in my specialty, but don't fool yourselves that going DO will not resort in discrimination against you for residency.

 

[Dharma]

Man you sure do have a lot of time on your hands. Do you get some kind of commission fee on here or something?

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

Ehhh its N=1, but I matched at what would likely be seen as a mid-tier program.

Do you feel you could have matched at a higher tier IM program if you weren't aiming for a dual program?

 

[sylvanthus]

Probably not much higher, granted I also had absolutely zero research experience.

 

[MedicineMike]

Georgetown has a bunch.

My good friend matched Georgetown with very similar stats to OP

 

[hallowmann]

I kind of agree that self selection plays a big part in it. SDN is one thing, but just looking at the facebook page for my school's 3rd and 4th years, most people are applying to programs that they did their clinicals at, and big surprise there, they're almost exclusively community programs or exclusively osteopathic programs (many also apply dual-accredited but that's because they don't want to forgo the AOA match or need to fulfill the PA AOA TRI requirement).

Don't get me wrong, some people are aiming for academic ACGME IM, but a lot aren't or aren't even applying to many academic ACGME programs because they figure its not worth it. This is in contrast to the people at my school that aim high (for whatever reason) and usually end up in a solid program. The latter group is definitely the minority though.

Residency apps is the time to aim high and apply broad. Have a backup regardless, but if the worst that happens is that you lose $$$ or even $$$$ applying to places that pitched your app, at least you know you tried.

 

[235009]

Residency apps is the time to aim high and apply broad. Have a backup regardless, but if the worst that happens is that you lose $$$ or even $$$$ applying to places that pitched your app, at least you know you tried.

definitely agree with this

my goal is certainly not to discourage current med students from applying. applications are cheap and you should apply broadly including reaches. however, it is unfair to misinform pre-meds and downplay the potential disadvantages of certain decisions. too often on SDN someone holds up an example of "that one guy who matched X" as if it's not a 1-in-a-thousand type occurrence.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Man you sure do have a lot of time on your hands. Do you get some kind of commission fee on here or something?

(a) It's an incredibly lame argument to try and call out an internet message board poster as a nerd for posting too much when you yourself are also posting on an internet message board.

(b) Meat Tornado = 2547 posts over 2117 days = 1.2 posts per day...Dharma = 1766 posts over 1498 days = 1.2 posts per day...hmmmmm

 

[demayette]

"Solid applicant" is downplaying it quite a bit! To match into a mid-tier university program you would need to be one of the top DOs in the country barring any special connections.

In another thread (post below) I pointed out that only 10% of PCOM graduates who matched IM did so at a university program. Of those only one was at a program many would characterize as mid-tier.

So in other word, an MD applicant from Howard or Meharry with 230 step 1 might not have a hard time matching into an mid tier IM program, but a DO applicant might need 240+ to even have a chance... This is madness!

 

[Mad Jack]

Man you sure do have a lot of time on your hands. Do you get some kind of commission fee on here or something?

The only person who makes commission around here is me.

And maybe @DermViser

 

[Dharma]

(a) It's an incredibly lame argument to try and call out an internet message board poster as a nerd for posting too much when you yourself are also posting on an internet message board.

(b) Meat Tornado = 2547 posts over 2117 days = 1.2 posts per day...Dharma = 1766 posts over 1498 days = 1.2 posts per day...hmmmmm

What's with you kids going the extra mile to do postings research and arithmetics? Chill.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

What's with you kids going the extra mile to do postings research and arithmetics? Chill.

It took all of about 2 minutes. Math ain't hard.

 

[Mad Jack]

Those competitive IM programs have their pick of the litter when it comes to US MD applicants. IM is becoming more popular every year and those programs are able to fill their rosters with superstar US MD grads (and FMGs in some cases) several times over that they don't need to explore what else is out there. In fact a particular mid tier historically DO friendly program in the northeast no longer takes DOs and another has been matching fewer every year. These programs know that perception matters. There's another community program in the northeast that matches exclusively US MDs when it can easily fill it's class with higher performing DO applicants.

Not saying don't apply or trying to discourage anyone just making sure you have real information to make an informed and realistic decision. Note that few PDs would flat out tell you they won't look at or rank/match DO applicants. Actions speak louder than words.

What I don't get is why MeatTornado has all this time to hate on DOs. Pretty much every thread I've ever seen him in was either a thread regarding prestige or DO competitiveness.

With less than 8% of the given people participating in the match every year being DOs, it isn't all that surprising that there aren't DOs all over the place in the ACGME match.

 

[Dharma]

It took all of about 2 minutes. Math ain't hard.

Congrats

 

[Dharma]

What I don't get is why MeatTornado has all this time to hate on DOs. Pretty much every thread I've ever seen him in was either a thread regarding prestige or DO .

This was my point that PhD in math over there didn't pick up on.

 

[user3]

What I don't get is why MeatTornado has all this time to hate on DOs. Pretty much every thread I've ever seen him in was either a thread regarding prestige or DO competitiveness.

With less than 8% of the given people participating in the match every year being DOs, it isn't all that surprising that there aren't DOs all over the place in the ACGME match.

There is a "family" of anti-DO trolls I have noticed that enjoys spamming our forums. meat tornado is one of them.

 

[group_theory]

This thread has devolved. Closing.