frank51

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I’m really excited about attending D.O school next year, but I’m concerned with one thing. I can deal with the discrimination that exists within the medical community and the residency programs when it comes to getting accepted into more competitive specialties, I’m also fine with taking USMLE in addition to COMLEX; but is it true that because of OMT D.O schools are harder than MD schools? If this is true, it really concerns me that D.O student have to work harder and acquire higher grades to compete against MD students (even though the curriculum is more difficult), only to be discriminated against at the end. Please share your thoughts.
 

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Since I am starting next DO school in Fall, I gotta say its easier in many senses. For example, the ppl in the program are not gonna be rocket scientists who constantly got 4.0 and 37 on MCATS. They will be smart ppl, or in other words, smart enough to make it as a doctor. An extra thing like OMT wont be so bad. Its actually quite fun. U get to feel up on hot girls or guys in class without getting in trouble. I call it extra curricular activities. :thumbup: ;) Besides, imo, the key to having a great medical education is being with ppl you can consider as cool as yourself or on ure same level. DO schools seems to have that. With regards to competitiveness, who cares. Every DO will get residency. Fellowship is another story, depending on who u know (very important) and how well u do on the boards (USMLE as opposed to COMLEX in some cases). Either way, we are docs . BOTTOM LINE. And if an MD student says anything, tell him to go memorize todays newspaper. LOSERS.
 

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frank51 said:
I’m really excited about attending D.O school next year, but I’m concerned with one thing. I can deal with the discrimination that exists within the medical community and the residency programs when it comes to getting accepted into more competitive specialties, I’m also fine with taking USMLE in addition to COMLEX; but is it true that because of OMT D.O schools are harder than MD schools? If this is true, it really concerns me that D.O student have to work harder and acquire higher grades to compete against MD students (even though the curriculum is more difficult), only to be discriminated against at the end. Please share your thoughts.
No. They are about equal.

Now there are a few M.D. schools that are easier than my school, but this is not true, on average.
 

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djquick83 said:
Since I am starting next DO school in Fall, I gotta say its easier in many senses. For example, the ppl in the program are not gonna be rocket scientists who constantly got 4.0 and 37 on MCATS. They will be smart ppl, or in other words, smart enough to make it as a doctor.
One of the things you'll also learn at an Osteopathic school is telling the future. I can see in yours a rude awakening.
 

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Green912 said:
One of the things you'll also learn at an Osteopathic school is telling the future. I can see in yours a rude awakening.
HAHA, do you also foresee a flame war, because the title of this thread is just asking for one.

Actually though, correct me if I'm wrong, but I've heard that a lot of the same proffesors that teach at Robert Wood (an MD school) also teach at UMDNJ-SOM. So in some respects, we will receive a similar, if not identical, education to that MD school.
 
C

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Same thing here. We share some of our professors with the two local MD schools.
 

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djquick83 said:
Since I am starting next DO school in Fall...Its actually quite fun. U get to feel up on hot girls or guys in class without getting in trouble. I call it extra curricular activities. :thumbup: ;) Besides, imo, the key to having a great medical education is being with ppl you can consider as cool as yourself
and i can assure you that right now, your future classmates are cringing at the thought of you being in their class...

please for the love of all that is holy, don't ever make a statement again about getting to "feel up on hot girls or guys in class without getting in trouble." apparently the first thing you need to learn when you get to medical school is respect, closely followed by tact and professionalism with a very long discussion of maturity.

the key to a good medical education has nothing to do with being around "cool" people. it isn't a frat party. the key to a good medical education is realizing that everything you're being taught might someday save someone's life. you're entering an incredibly rewarding career and your opinion of it makes me wish i knew someone who could revoke your acceptance.

and what makes you an expert on how easy or hard it's going to be?? perhaps you should hold off judgement until you get into the situation

maybe i've taken your post too seriously, but it scares me that you might not have been joking.
 

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I don't know if DO school is harder (esp. since I have no basis of comparison), but I will say that learning 120 tenderpoints when you've got 8 other exams during blocks is a total pain in the ass. You can't completely discount the amount of work you have to put into OMM for the written and the practicals. You can't just totally blow it off and expect to pass. Plus, since you have faculty checking what you're doing and making sure your dx are correct, you can't just fake it, either. Also, the whole idea of "feeling up other people" gets old, oh, I'd say about 1.4 seconds after you start doing OMM. Wait until you have the fat, hairy dude who sweats constantly in lab. Now, that's good times.
 
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frank51

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Elysium said:
I don't know if DO school is harder (esp. since I have no basis of comparison), but I will say that learning 120 tenderpoints when you've got 8 other exams during blocks is a total pain in the ass. You can't completely discount the amount of work you have to put into OMM for the written and the practicals. You can't just totally blow it off and expect to pass. Plus, since you have faculty checking what you're doing and making sure your dx are correct, you can't just fake it, either. Also, the whole idea of "feeling up other people" gets old, oh, I'd say about 1.4 seconds after you start doing OMM. Wait until you have the fat, hairy dude who sweats constantly in lab. Now, that's good times.
Well, since OMM is part of the curriculum, will it not effect your GPA if you do poorly? BTW, do allopathic residency programs care if you do well in your course work, but just barely pass OMM?
 

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frank51 said:
Well, since OMM is part of the curriculum, will it not effect your GPA if you do poorly? BTW, do allopathic residency programs care if you do well in your course work, but just barely pass OMM?
Everyone does well in OMM. You can't fail the practicals--they just have you keep retaking them until you practice.

Keep in mind that most residencies, especially for primary care only look at your clinical grades and board scores. This is because many schools only have Pass/Fail grades anyway.
 

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It is hard for me to know for sure given I have not been to medical school (either MD or DO) but since I applied, I pursued this question a great deal in my search for "the perfect school." Oh, and by the way, no school is perfect. I learned that early on. :)

For me, the answer is simple, D.O. schools have "more knowledge" to cover. They have to cover all the baseline medical knowledge that allopathic schools cover plus the OMM and OP&P or whatever your school calls it. But, in reality, there are only so many hours in a day and humans have limits as to what they can learn and absorb. Given the "amount" of information you receive at both M.D. and D.O. schools, you could never hope (unless you are a freak genius, which I'm sure some of you are) to learn all of it. So, the question for me then became this. "If I go to an M.D. school, what will I do with that time that I would have spent learning OMM?" In other words, since I wouldn't be learning OMM, would I be able to spend that time studying anatomy, histology, etc...? Knowing myself, I will be studying extra during that time. Many would probably rather spend that time watching TV or relaxing. So, I can only speak for myself. I then had to ask, "what would I rather learn, OMM or a better knowledge of the sciences?" To be honest, I wanted OMM but money drove my decision. D.O. schools just didn't have the right combination of state assistance/sholarship/nearness to family that I found at Quillen. Are D.O. schools more difficult? Yes and No. Yes, they can be. In reality, they aren't any more difficult. They are pretty much the same. And, each school varies. Some D.O. schools may be easier and some D.O. schools may be harder. Some M.D. schools may be easier and some may be harder. You shouldn't make a decision on what school to go to based on "how hard it is." The difficulty of the school does not equal the quality of education offered there. The quality of your medical education depends on the effort you put in to it. Medical schools are just a source for you to draw from.
 
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frank51

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I just hope that DO schools understand that students need to spend the majority of their time studying for their science classes, after all many of the more competitive allopathic programs almost require students to take the USMLE, which tests the student’s knowledge with regards to the science courses, not OMM. BTW, at schools where the grading system is A,B, etc. do students receive a grade for OMT? or is it pass/fail?
 

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I'm a 4th yr med student working primarily in allopathic hospitals. I have to agree with Geronimo. His take is very accurate. In THEORY, the DO program is harder, but, as many of you will soon learn, what is theoretical is never reality. You do sacrifice some time to study OMM or in OMM lab, whether this is free time, or time you would spend in your other courses.

For most people, it's not a big deal. But for some, this will be more than just a pain in the a$$. It might actually mean some of your basic science courses will suffer.

So the question is... if your basic science courses suffer, what are the consequences? Answers: Slightly lower GPA, slightly lower USMLE score (note that I contend your COMLEX score will NOT suffer much), and, what's more important, slightly less basic science knowledge. Allopathic programs do not care what score you got in Histo, but they do care if you barely passed your entire first year.

I will say this. I believe that this analysis applies only to students who are unable to manage their time very efficiently. IMHO, managing your time is the single most important skill required to survive 1st and even 2nd year. If you can manage your time (and I don't mean studying for Histo during OMM lab), this will not be an issue.

Finally, if you are not going to ever use OMM, you will probably feel it is a great waste of time.
 

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AviatorDoc said:
I'm a 4th yr med student working primarily in allopathic hospitals. I have to agree with Geronimo. His take is very accurate. In THEORY, the DO program is harder, but, as many of you will soon learn, what is theoretical is never reality. You do sacrifice some time to study OMM or in OMM lab, whether this is free time, or time you would spend in your other courses.

For most people, it's not a big deal. But for some, this will be more than just a pain in the a$$. It might actually mean some of your basic science courses will suffer.

So the question is... if your basic science courses suffer, what are the consequences? Answers: Slightly lower GPA, slightly lower USMLE score (note that I contend your COMLEX score will NOT suffer much), and, what's more important, slightly less basic science knowledge. Allopathic programs do not care what score you got in Histo, but they do care if you barely passed your entire first year.

I will say this. I believe that this analysis applies only to students who are unable to manage their time very efficiently. IMHO, managing your time is the single most important skill required to survive 1st and even 2nd year. If you can manage your time (and I don't mean studying for Histo during OMM lab), this will not be an issue.

Finally, if you are not going to ever use OMM, you will probably feel it is a great waste of time.

as a side note that has nothing to do with this discussion... i love dr goldman!! he's so awesome!! great signature.
 

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frank51 said:
I’m really excited about attending D.O school next year, but I’m concerned with one thing. I can deal with the discrimination that exists within the medical community and the residency programs when it comes to getting accepted into more competitive specialties, I’m also fine with taking USMLE in addition to COMLEX; but is it true that because of OMT D.O schools are harder than MD schools? If this is true, it really concerns me that D.O student have to work harder and acquire higher grades to compete against MD students (even though the curriculum is more difficult), only to be discriminated against at the end. Please share your thoughts.
no
 

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OSUdoc08 said:
No. They are about equal.

Now there are a few M.D. schools that are easier than my school, but this is not true, on average.
It's so stupid when people say stuff like this.........how do you or anyone else have any basis to compare schools?? and have you developed a measure with a "difficulty" scale to prove anything?........no, you haven't. The only people I would listen to related to this subject are people that have transferred schools. who the hell knows, maybe a few top 25 MD schools are easier than some DO schools. who will ever know and who cares??
 

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HoodyHoo said:
It's so stupid when people say stuff like this.........how do you or anyone else have any basis to compare schools?? and have you developed a measure with a "difficulty" scale to prove anything?........no, you haven't. The only people I would listen to related to this subject are people that have transferred schools. who the hell knows, maybe a few top 25 MD schools are easier than some DO schools. who will ever know and who cares??
Perhaps before insulting me, you could consult my sources, which include students of such schools, and specific educational formats.
 

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Kevbot said:
HAHA, do you also foresee a flame war, because the title of this thread is just asking for one.

Actually though, correct me if I'm wrong, but I've heard that a lot of the same proffesors that teach at Robert Wood (an MD school) also teach at UMDNJ-SOM. So in some respects, we will receive a similar, if not identical, education to that MD school.
At UMDNJ-SOM we have profs who teach at the other UMDNJs. Our Neuroscience Prof teaches at SOM, one of the other UMDNJs (I think RWJ), and UPenn (yup UPenn Med). He also wrote the roadmap for USMLE for Neuroscience.

That's just one example. The material is identical. No one should fool themselves into thinking DO school will be any easier. OMM is not hard, but it's an extra couple of hours a week that are required that you could spend on memorizing the intricate details of biochemistry, but who would want to do that anyway.

-J
 
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frank51

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DOctorJay said:
At UMDNJ-SOM we have profs who teach at the other UMDNJs. Our Neuroscience Prof teaches at SOM, one of the other UMDNJs (I think RWJ), and UPenn (yup UPenn Med). He also wrote the roadmap for USMLE for Neuroscience.

That's just one example. The material is identical. No one should fool themselves into thinking DO school will be any easier. OMM is not hard, but it's an extra couple of hours a week that are required that you could spend on memorizing the intricate details of biochemistry, but who would want to do that anyway.

-J
The fact that your professor wrote the roadmap for USMLE for Neuroscience is awesome, these professors tend better prepare students for the boards. Good post. :thumbup:
 

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I attend MSUCOM where there is also an allopathic school. We have all of our first year basic science classes together, take the same exams, etc. I really don't think you could say that allopathic schools or osteopathic schools in general have a significant difference in the level of difficulty. They are both medical schools preparing students to be physicians. We all need to know the same knowledge in order to be competent doctors. OMM is usually two hours of extra time a week, but it is a great review of anatomy.
 

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docslytherin said:
and i can assure you that right now, your future classmates are cringing at the thought of you being in their class...

please for the love of all that is holy, don't ever make a statement again about getting to "feel up on hot girls or guys in class without getting in trouble." apparently the first thing you need to learn when you get to medical school is respect, closely followed by tact and professionalism with a very long discussion of maturity.

the key to a good medical education has nothing to do with being around "cool" people. it isn't a frat party. the key to a good medical education is realizing that everything you're being taught might someday save someone's life. you're entering an incredibly rewarding career and your opinion of it makes me wish i knew someone who could revoke your acceptance.

and what makes you an expert on how easy or hard it's going to be?? perhaps you should hold off judgement until you get into the situation

maybe i've taken your post too seriously, but it scares me that you might not have been joking.
Dude. Relax. Dont get ure panties in a bunch. :rolleyes: I guarantee if u cant have some fun in medical school, that **** will bore u to death and u will hate it. Yea, not everyweek is about drinking and going out to clubs, but staying home 24/7 and eating ure biochem textbook isnt going to make u any better of a doctor than someone who knows how to life there life up. Just my 2 cents.
 
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frank51

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djquick83 said:
Dude. Relax. Dont get ure panties in a bunch. :rolleyes: I guarantee if u cant have some fun in medical school, that **** will bore u to death and u will hate it. Yea, not everyweek is about drinking and going out to clubs, but staying home 24/7 and eating ure biochem textbook isnt going to make u any better of a doctor than someone who knows how to life there life up. Just my 2 cents.
One of my friends just got accepted into a very competitive specialty, when I asked him about studying in medical school, he told me that exact same thing.
 

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IMO, a persons best attributes and talents comes out when they are in a setting which makes them feel most comfortable, or as biologists would say, the particular niche they live in. If u like the school and liek the ppl there, there is no doubt in my mind that regardless of how hard it may be, u will still do well because all of ure thoughts will be on the exams and not on why u hate the school or why u wouldnt want to be there. I hated doing 4 years of undergrad, something I never imagined happening since I always figured college was supposed to be a great experience. I could have had a higher GPA at another school and possibly better MCATS scores. Who really knows ? Hopefully, med school will be better and Im sure it will turn out that way.
 

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I tend to supplement many of my class notes with notes from other schools. While I'm not sure how anyone could make an easy comparison of any individual schools, I suspect that one has to work a bit harder in some DO schools simply because the curriculum isn't as standardized. Small schools generally mean fewer full-time faculty, higher turnover, fewer resources, which all contribute to a pedagogy that's less than ideal.

The best notes of all my courses are written by the PhD who wrote a board prep book and the DOs who are active in residency training. the worst are written by the PhD's who are new professors with little background in medical education and the DOs who teach the basic sciences a few hours on the side. I suspect that on average, MD programs have a higher ratio of the former to latter than many DO schools, which probably makes for easier study, though certainly not easier content.

Of course, so much stuff is online now, and so many courses are more or less standardized across the nation (nearly everyone's going to take their Path notes from Robbins, however they're presented) a motivated student in any school, be it MD, DO, or diploma-mill Eastern European, can get good instructional material. Loyola LUMEN histology, University of Wisconsin dissection videos, Utah WebPath are all great examples of resources that wouldn't be possible in the average private DO school, but that are available to all comers thanks to the internet and the generous content-sharing culture of big universities. I imagine that in the next few years the amount of content like this that's available will explode, making one's choice of school in the first two years nearly irrelevant--students will be able to choose whatever style and method of teaching works best for them, wherever it's located.
 

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OSUdoc08 said:
Perhaps before insulting me, you could consult my sources, which include students of such schools, and specific educational formats.
First of all I wasn't insulting you, and if you thought I was then ok. but until you go and attend all of those schools, you really have no basis. just my opinion
 

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futuredo32 said:
I attend MSUCOM where there is also an allopathic school. We have all of our first year basic science classes together, take the same exams, etc. I really don't think you could say that allopathic schools or osteopathic schools in general have a significant difference in the level of difficulty. They are both medical schools preparing students to be physicians. We all need to know the same knowledge in order to be competent doctors. OMM is usually two hours of extra time a week, but it is a great review of anatomy.
Just curious, do they tell you the difference in your scores? osteo vs. allo?? that would be awesome if you guys did better than they did.
 

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djquick83 said:
Dude. Relax. Dont get ure panties in a bunch. :rolleyes: I guarantee if u cant have some fun in medical school, that **** will bore u to death and u will hate it. Yea, not everyweek is about drinking and going out to clubs, but staying home 24/7 and eating ure biochem textbook isnt going to make u any better of a doctor than someone who knows how to life there life up. Just my 2 cents.
you're not in medical school yet, so don't attempt to lecture me about what it's like. the thing that really aggravates me about your previous post isn't that you think med school is a party, it's that you make comments that characterize you as a juvenile (feeling up hot girls and guys in your class for example).
 

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HoodyHoo said:
First of all I wasn't insulting you, and if you thought I was then ok. but until you go and attend all of those schools, you really have no basis. just my opinion
I believe that a comparison of curriculum style and a survey of students at such a school would suffice for at minimum a "basis." It may not be a definitive conclusion, but a basis nonetheless.
 

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djquick83 said:
It was a joke moron. Get a sense of humor. :rolleyes:
nice. an appropriate level of maturity... good luck next year. as another poster has already pointed out, it's going to be an eye-opener for you. perhaps your crystal ball and your deck of tarot cards can predict treatment plans for patients as precisely as they've allowed you to understand the due diligence necessary in a medical school environment you've never been a part of. here's to hoping.




ps- if i had to choose between a doctor who "ate" his/her biochem book and "someone who knows how to life there life up" i'm going with the biochem nerd everytime... and the person who tells you differently is lying. a choice between pleasant interaction and survival always goes to survival.
 

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OSUdoc08 said:
I believe that a comparison of curriculum style and a survey of students at such a school would suffice for at minimum a "basis." It may not be a definitive conclusion, but a basis nonetheless.
That's cool, i wish there were a way to truly compare schools. you always wonder what it would be like at other schools that you declined in the application process. I sure do anyway.

I do get frustrated though when MD students automatically assume their classes are more difficult or their schedule is more demanding. But I guess regardless of where you are it is difficult nonetheless, and right now I wish I didn't have an Immuno test tomorrow........do you really have to know the exact sequence of complement cascades? c'mon. i'm going crazy..............
 

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HoodyHoo said:
That's cool, i wish there were a way to truly compare schools. you always wonder what it would be like at other schools that you declined in the application process. I sure do anyway.

I do get frustrated though when MD students automatically assume their classes are more difficult or their schedule is more demanding. But I guess regardless of where you are it is difficult nonetheless, and right now I wish I didn't have an Immuno test tomorrow........do you really have to know the exact sequence of complement cascades? c'mon. i'm going crazy..............
Kinda makes me wish I took immuno this semester in undergrad. I heard it was a difficult course. : \

At my school, everyone is very tactful about the DO thing. However, when I say I'm going to UMDNJ, everyone automatically assumes that I'm going to NJMS in Newark. Then the rest of the conversation involves me explaining that UMDNJ-SOM is a seperate campus and explaining where Stratford is. That's a bit frustrating.

Good luck on your exam.
 

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HoodyHoo said:
do you really have to know the exact sequence of complement cascades? c'mon. i'm going crazy..............
remember the cascades. it comes back in other classes (the allergy section of my principles of med class for example) and immuno is great fodder for boards apparantly. i wish that i'd retained more last year as i sit and try to learn it now for the second time...

good luck with your test tomorrow!
 

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djquick83 said:
Since I am starting next DO school in Fall, I gotta say its easier in many senses. For example, the ppl in the program are not gonna be rocket scientists who constantly got 4.0 and 37 on MCATS. They will be smart ppl, or in other words, smart enough to make it as a doctor. An extra thing like OMT wont be so bad. Its actually quite fun. U get to feel up on hot girls or guys in class without getting in trouble. I call it extra curricular activities. :thumbup: ;) Besides, imo, the key to having a great medical education is being with ppl you can consider as cool as yourself or on ure same level. DO schools seems to have that. With regards to competitiveness, who cares. Every DO will get residency. Fellowship is another story, depending on who u know (very important) and how well u do on the boards (USMLE as opposed to COMLEX in some cases). Either way, we are docs . BOTTOM LINE. And if an MD student says anything, tell him to go memorize todays newspaper. LOSERS.
Whoa dude! It's called professionalism. Whether MD or DO you need to learn it.. QUICK!