Are there enough RESIDENCY slots this year?

[singingfootdoc]

Advertisement - Members don't see this ad

at Scholl it is mandatory to take the MCAT and only the MCAT to get into school, it is mandatory to pass part I in order to take part II, it is mandatory to pass part I and II to graduate, admissions are nuts at my school (in a good way), they weed out tons of students....our 2013 class is full of bright students with major ambition

I know some schools do not follow suit, I feel they should. It's important, if we want to make changes to better our profession, to start at the bottom up instead of the top down.

As far as residency spots go, the APMA has done a terrific job in opening up new spots. In my last meeting, the deficit was 89 positins, now it's 31, and by July 1 who knows! Every program I interviewed at mentinoed they were going to take another position next year (2011). We should be proud of our profession and stick behind those who are working for us 24/7.

 

[215353]

singingfootdoc do you have a link or an article that talks about these new residency spots? I'd like to read about it! Thanks!!!

 

[podpal]

Hi....I was the 1st to start this thread if you care to read the 1st post.

I mentioned there were not enough residency slots for students back then. I was right. But the situation does not look any different. Instead, I think there are more students left without a spot. Next year I guess is worse, more students, less postions.

I just glanced at these posts & did not read all of the.

My understanding...there were about 60+ slots that did not match. There were 100+ students who still needed a postion. That does not include DPM's like myself who thought of looking for a program. And ther were 10+ DPM's & other grads like myself looking.

This stinks. The AACPM needs to do something. Why are these schools taking students, when there are not enough slots.

Why did we need 2 more schools...Arizona & Califorina ...from what I know.

This is a a sad sad professsion, A bad mistake on my part & I admit it. I am stuck. Can not get a program, so can not open a practice.

Good Luck
the footpodguy

It's going to get worse. CPME is changing the residency structure to make ALL programs 36 months or longer. What happens to the 24 month programs? If CPME instead made the average residency 12 or 24 months then we could all get residency training. This would open up substantially more slots, giving every DPM the opportunity for MINIMAL training required by the states to practice. Think of it, if the required residency case loads were less, then there could be more slots opened.

In medicine the phrase goes something like this, "see 1, do 1, teach 1.", refering to procedures. In podiatry it goes more like "see hundreds, do 100, teach none."

I have to ask, shouldn't all podiatrists have the ability to offer our patients hammertoe surgery? Why is this a privilage? In actuality it's an annoyance for my patients to have to be sent out for this very simple, basic surgical procedure.

This better than God attitude of those who are fortunate and get residency programs has to end. The people who are so well trained should be starting up residency programs as soon as they graduate.

If even 1/2 of the people graduating from residency's this year started a new residency program the problem would end. If the CPME structured the residency's as 2 year programs the residency crisis would end.

The profession generates it's own problems. We have a serious lack of leadership in this profession, as mentioned above. Leaders should SOLVE problems, not CREATE them. Any thoughts? 😕

 

[podpal]

What I posted was simply that most good programs aren't going to go out of their way to add spots (and lower the caseload for their currently selected residents) in order to add what are likely to be lower quality applicants who are still scrambling.

How about you? What are you going to do to solve the residency crisis? Will you be starting a residency program to help solve this mess? Since you're getting training, and there's no longer a rule that one must be board certified to start a program, can we expect to see you as a residency director in a few years?

Residents who TAKE slots, in today's climate, are taking them from another practitioner. These residents should, in turn, DEVELOP a slot.

 

[air bud]

This better than God attitude of those who are fortunate and get residency programs has to end.

I don't have the knowledge or experience to answer anything else in your post except for this exerpt above. I think there are two conflicting attitudes/belief sets here. I believe "fortunate" is not the correct word to use here. "fortunate" implies that Feli and others got to where they are by luck and circumstances, and denies/belittles all of the hard work (above and beyond others) that they have done. They have grabbed the bull by the horns (metaphorically speaking). While podpal and others may be exceptions, there is a "victim" mindset at work here.
I study. I study a lot, and I believe that my hard work will pay off in the end. Right now my efforts have put me ahead of a large percentage of my classmates, at least in terms of grades. I would be personally offended if someone said I was "fortunate" to have the grades that I do. They are directly related to the choices that I have made. I try to dictate my circumstances, not let them dictate me.
Once again, there may be exceptions, but line Feli up to some who are still scrambling. To deny there are differences between the two is to deny how the real world works.
I am not trying to take away from others here, rather I am trying to give credit where credit is due. I am not speaking for PADPM, but I think I can guess what his response would be if you asked him if he was "fortunate" for his accomplishments.

EDIT: I do realize that the situation was very different for Podpal's generation, where it was much more common to not get a residency. There were different factors at play.

 

[singingfootdoc]

We have a serious lack of leadership in this profession, as mentioned above. Leaders should SOLVE problems, not CREATE them. Any thoughts? 😕

Wow, you are seriously ignorant in what your profession does for you. You are employed and able to do your awesome hammer toe surgery because of these leaders that have done an amazing job opening up new spots for students, raising money for APMAPAC to fund our reps and senators who favor podiatry and keep us as a specialty. Check Eadvocacy site to see what these leaders have done for us. Also, check the CPME website to see WHY these changes are being made. THEY ARE PROPOSED CHANGES TO GET FEEDBACK FROM THE PROFESSION, not create problems...it's to solve them. You want your voice heard? Go to the bottom and submit your productive comments.

Remember students, if you have any question about numbers, please ask your APMSA delegate who will receive updates from the COTH liaison...these numbers change daily and won't be final until July 1, 2010.

LAST APMSA HOD MEETING MINUTES:

TIMETABLE: I've since spoken with the current chair and the director and they both have said that the changes, even if adopted at this next meeting, may not be implemented for a while: "It's entirely possible that implementation of the new documents may be delayed until July 2011 based on the large number of comments that we have received."
We definitely want to add our student input to this process, so I encourage all the members of the Education Committee and anyone else in the HOD who is interested to coordinate with me and read through the documents 320 and 330.
Again, the proposals I mentioned are to be considered at the April 2010 mtg - the implementation may not be for a year or so more.

(below are the changes for the new PR 36 residencies. Strikethrough indicates a deletion)

Changes in Volume and Diversity Requirements (appendix A)
Case activities:
Inpatient cases:
Podiatric clinic/office encounters:
Podiatric surgery cases: 300
Trauma cases: 50
Podopediatric cases: 25
Biomechanical cases: 50
Comprehensive H&P: 25

Procedure activities:
B and C level --> First and Second Assistant procedures (total): 525
C level --> First assistant procedures including:
Digital procedures: 100
First Ray procedures: 80
Other Soft Tissue Foot Surgery procedures: 65
Other Osseous Foot Surgery procedures: 60
Reconstructive Rearfoot and Ankle procedures (added credential*): 50

• Note that there will no longer be A, B, or C cases. They will be referred to as First Assist and Second Assist.
  Also, the documents adopt the terminology "...of foot, ankle, and their governing and related structures"
  No foreign training will count toward the minimum activity volume - you can log the patients, but they don't count toward your totals.
  Infectious disease will be added as a required rotation during residency.
  Residents will be required to have at least 1 in-training exam, and the program must pay for it.

Finally, how the RRA credential is done is open to debate. Obviously, these changes are the results of long efforts to unify the residency training across the profession which will also help those outside of podiatry (i.e. hospital administrators granting privileges, other medical professionals, etc) to quickly appreciate the uniform level of post-grad training without being bogged down in alphabet soup and varying lengths of previous residency definitions.

Call for comments:
www.apma.org/Members/Education/CPMEAccre...-Comment-Notice.aspx

320 Revision (final):
www.apma.org/Members/Education/CPMEAccre.../2009-revisions.aspx

320 Revisions with changes indicated:
www.apma.org/Members/Education/CPMEAccre...to%20CPME%20320.aspx

330 Revisions with changes indicated:
www.apma.org/Members/Education/CPMEAccre...to%20CPME%20330.aspx

These links and information can be found by accessing the CPME website at cpme.org, then click on the orange link on the left side of the page called "residencies."

 

[Podfather]

Podpal is our new Whiskers. Check his posts they are all inflammatory or negatively biased against the profession.

 

[g squared 23]

Wow, you are seriously ignorant in what your profession does for you. You are employed and able to do your awesome hammer toe surgery because of these leaders that have done an amazing job...

Um, actually I think podpal was saying that he CAN'T do those hammer toe surgeries because he didn't get a residency and he has to refer them out even though they are such a simple procedure....so way to rub it in.

As for podpal...you can't be bitter and contentious towards everyone who graduates from a residency program and then doesn't turn around and start their own. Not everyone is a good educator nor do they have the desire to teach. Why would a recent graduate want to focus on such a nonrewarding venture when they haven't even established themselves professionally. New podiatrists are concerned about paying off their loans and building a referral network and practice. They have to get a consistent number of CASES first that they can then use to teach residents. So yes, a brand new podiatrist could be an attending at a current residency program and provide some of their cases as a learning opportunity. Starting up a brand new residency program when they have no patient base or professional credibility, isn't only near impossible, it's downright silly.

 

[Feli]

How about you? What are you going to do to solve the residency crisis? Will you be starting a residency program to help solve this mess? Since you're getting training, and there's no longer a rule that one must be board certified to start a program, can we expect to see you as a residency director in a few years?...

Hard to say. I don't feel obligated to start or participate in resident training, and I don't think anyone is simply due to the fact that they are well trained... if that's what you're asking. I would do it by my own choosing, and I hope others do what makes sense to them based on their personal wants/needs.

Being involved with a residency would definitely appeal to me personally. I enjoy reading, I try to teach, and I'm pretty decent at lecturing. I'd like to eventually be involved in education at some level; whether that means teaching students, residents, or other attendings? I do not know right now. I am very early. I might end up sucking at surgery 🙂

If all goes well, I plan to teach residents if I am in an urban area where there are existing pod residency programs or hospitals with enough DPM cases and support staff to create one. A residency needs a lot of support to run well; many new directors - especially young DPMs with good intentions - get very bogged down with paperwork and hospital politics if they don't have the help they need. With limited amount of billing know how and few patients/cases in the early going, it would probably be more appealing and logical for most young DPM surgeons to just bring cases to a residency hospital and possibly attend the residency's organized academics or function as a residency committee member or asst director as they build up their own clinical reputation and referral bases. JMO

 

[podpal]

Podpal is our new Whiskers. Check his posts they are all inflammatory or negatively biased against the profession.

Very eogtistical of you. Your posts tend to be rather egotistical though, in general.

Would YOU rather see the division in the profession as it currently is, with some DPMs capable of offering surgical options and others forced to send their patients out for surgery? Do you honestly believe that having a SHORTAGE of 36 month programs is better than having a SURPLUS of 24 month programs?

And for the rest...how would any of you feel if you worked hard, got the grades, did the clinicals, and didn't get a shot at residency? I'm not approaching this negatively, it's truthfully. Does anyone else have any suggestion for SOLVING the residency problems we now have? Bashing our current students doesn't make matters better. There's no great divide between the candidates who matched and those who didn't. We are all DPMs. The only division is that some of us will be trained immediately, given great opportunities, while the rest will struggle. Building a practice without surgical training leaves any DPM at a distinct disadvantage over those LUCKY enough to have training. Period!

 

[podpal]

Wow, you are seriously ignorant in what your profession does for you. "

Unfortunately, I'm not ignorant. Can my profession provide surgical training for me, such that I may offer it to my patients? 😎
Taking survey's from students? Seriously? How about the patients who have to be sent from office to office because not all DPMs can get surgical training? Does the patients opinion count?
Of course we all want the training, but it isn't available to all DPMs. The current model isn't a viable solution to this problem.

 

[air bud]

There's no great divide between the candidates who matched and those who didn't.

I find this hard to believe. Maybe in cupcake/gumdrop/candycane land. If this were happening at Harvard, this may be the case. But there is no denying the reality of applicants/graduates of podiatry schools.

Once again, you are taking away from people's personal accomplishments and successes.

Are you for "leveling the playing field" aka redistribution of wealth?

 

[Podfather]

Very eogtistical of you. Your posts tend to be rather egotistical though, in general.

How funny. I tend to just offer advice, be honest, and tell both the good with the bad.

Would YOU rather see the division in the profession as it currently is, with some DPMs capable of offering surgical options and others forced to send their patients out for surgery? Do you honestly believe that having a SHORTAGE of 36 month programs is better than having a SURPLUS of 24 month programs?

Number of years has not changed number of programs. In fact prior to this year, there were a surplus of positions and many went unmatched. If you are interested, I believe that all DPMs should be granted a one year residency that is rotational in nature. After that some enter practice or do residencies in surgery, biomechanics/wound care, or a combination type program. I do not believe everyone wants to be or should have to be a surgeon. Some simply want to do non-operative care (which is equally important). There is nothing wrong with some having different post-graduate training, because we are all DPMs. Hence my support for the dental model. My comment about you being our new whiskers was more about all of your posts have been more negative leaning without ever a good thing said.
And for the rest...how would any of you feel if you worked hard, got the grades, did the clinicals, and didn't get a shot at residency? I'm not approaching this negatively, it's truthfully. Does anyone else have any suggestion for SOLVING the residency problems we now have? Bashing our current students doesn't make matters better. There's no great divide between the candidates who matched and those who didn't. We are all DPMs. The only division is that some of us will be trained immediately, given great opportunities, while the rest will struggle. Building a practice without surgical training leaves any DPM at a distinct disadvantage over those LUCKY enough to have training. Period!

I would disagree. My non-surgical colleagues are busy make as much and in many cases more than I do. And getting a good residency has nothing to do with luck. If you were to be specific about your situation perhaps we could analyze what happen (this year?) and why you may be one of the 40 who do not match. Sincerely just trying to help.

 

[singingfootdoc]

Taking survey's from students? Seriously? How about the patients who have to be sent from office to office because not all DPMs can get surgical training?

YES TAKING SURVEY'S FROM STUDENTS. AS CLICHE AS IT IS, WE ARE THE FUTURE OF PODIATRY BOTTOM LINE. WE HAVE LEARNED MORE, HAVE BETTER TRAINING, AND PARTICIPATE IN MORE THAN MOST DPM'S IN PAST GENERATIONS. Every DPM I have spoken to would love to go back to school and learn things that we are so fortunate to learn....medically, clinically, and business wise including medical jurisprudence.

People send out patients all the time for surgical options including orthopods....some DPM's, even with a 36 month residency dont' feel comfortable doing rearfoot and will send it out to others. As of now, all residencies are surgical training programs. If you don't get proper training, go do a surgical fellowship, there are tons out there. And honestly, why can't you do surgery? Because you didn't do a residency? Hospital privileges? Please explain. Podfather and I are just trying to figure out why you feel so limited in this profession.

 

[PADPM]

There are several issues at play here;

1) I see/saw no need for additional schools, it simply diluted the already "weak" applicant pool.

2) The admissions process must be tightened up and the bar must be raised for our profession to gain the respect it deserves. Our top students can compete with anyone, but unfortunately our bottom students often don't belong in professional school.

3) My above comments are supported by students failing parts I/II of the boards. Simply unacceptable

4) Tighten up the admissions process, accept only the quality students and the residency situation will correct itself.

5) As per podfather's post, when there WAS an abundance of programs, we often had a lack of quality applicants due to the candidates we were interviewing. Luckily our program filled, but I would have rather have not filled spots than offered the spots to some of the graduates we interviewed.

The APMA is working on adding spots, but the problem begins in the schools and with the admissions process. We've GOT to raise the bar and accept better students, stop opening new schools that aren't needed and guarantee that the quality of graduates is top notch. This way ALL students should pass the boards and I believe the problem will eventually correct itself. Until that time, the problem will continue to perpetuate.

 

[singingfootdoc]

well said PADPM!! exactly! start from the bottom up! every school should follow suit...now all you have to do is have the Deans listen...oy

 

[dtrack22]

1) Podpal is a she not a he. What grown man calls posters "honey" and "child"?

2) Just last year, and it is my understanding that this was true in years prior, there were about 20 residency slots that went unfilled. There is a reason podpal didn't get into one of those programs and since she never explains why she can't land a spot I don't see the point in responding to her.

3) I think Ohio and Temple are a large part of the problem, but on the other hand, a handful of supposedly intelligent young students are doing their research and learning about the academic process involved with becoming a DPM and STILL deciding to matriculate knowing that their sub 20 MCAT may be a solid indication of their future failures...PT Barnum was a smart man.

 

[Shireiqiang]

3) I think Ohio and Temple are a large part of the problem, but on the other hand, a handful of supposedly intelligent young students are doing their research and learning about the academic process involved with becoming a DPM and STILL deciding to matriculate knowing that their sub 20 MCAT may be a solid indication of their future failures...PT Barnum was a smart man.

Those schools are a HUGE part of the problem. I personally never even applied to half of the schools for the simple fact that I know of students who are at those schools who were lazy and got poor grades in undergrad, and bombed the MCAT. These students alone almost swayed me completely from podiatry. I am even more shocked that these students are still in school, and I will not be surprised if I hear them on here whining about their "bad luck" because the apma screwed them and they are just as qualified as the top students in their class. I refuse to believe that a more qualified graduate will lose their residency spot to a less qualified applicant. It makes no sense whatsoever. Become well rounded to the best of your ability, and if you don't succeed, don't blame someone else.

 

[mildoc2016]

Those schools are a HUGE part of the problem. I personally never even applied to half of the schools for the simple fact that I know of students who are at those schools who were lazy and got poor grades in undergrad, and bombed the MCAT. These students alone almost swayed me completely from podiatry. I am even more shocked that these students are still in school, and I will not be surprised if I hear them on here whining about their "bad luck" because the apma screwed them and they are just as qualified as the top students in their class. I refuse to believe that a more qualified graduate will lose their residency spot to a less qualified applicant. It makes no sense whatsoever. Become well rounded to the best of your ability, and if you don't succeed, don't blame someone else.

ocpm/temple may be one cog in the problem clock that the residency situation is today, but other schoolS shelter the burden as well. One needs to look at how many are in the graduating classes per year per school VS the amount of residency positions available. OCPM has increased and made more strict its standards for graduation- just as it should. It has also altered its curriculum in the past two years.

Yes the cap is high, and ocpm takes more than its cap ... and depending on the attrition rate to weed out the poorly prepared students. Other schools are guilty of this as well.

The applicant standards should be raised as everyone believes, but perhaps this should be set by a NATIONAL organization, lest be left to the schools.

 

[BuckeyeDoctor]

I think Ohio and Temple are a large part of the problem

Those schools are a HUGE part of the problem. I personally never even applied to half of the schools

Not sure where this is coming from. Has Temple accepted a few too many students in the most recent years? Probably. But they aren't alone.

At least one of you stated you didn't even apply to the school yet you seem to know about how bad it is. I would remind you to look at the match lists when they start to trickle out on here and compare it to your schools and see where Temple stacks up.


Temple alum are some of the most influential members players in the game. Chang, Banks, Downy, Malay, Schoenhaus, Crawford, and the list goes on.

Every school contributes to the problem and none are immune from their own issues which bring it down in the eyes of others.

 

[dtrack22]

...

 

[Felt Racing]

...

 

[podpal]

I would disagree. My non-surgical colleagues are busy make as much and in many cases more than I do. And getting a good residency has nothing to do with luck. If you were to be specific about your situation perhaps we could analyze what happen (this year?) and why you may be one of the 40 who do not match. Sincerely just trying to help.

I agree with you that podiatry would be greatly served with a dental model. The new goal to make every residency into a 3 year model doesn't make practical sense.
My situation? This year and most recently too, opportunities for expansion presented themselves and I opted for this. I'd still like to have hospital privilages though. I've been asked to take over another practitioners hospital consults but can't set foot in this facility. I'm being blocked out due to not having a residency. All of our area hospitals give their podiatry consults to their staff with privilages. To obtain these privilages each podiatrist has to have documented surgical cases and surgical residency training. This is true even if the consult is for fungal nails.
The biggest concern I have with this expansion is still the loss of patients to surgical DPMs when they are sent out for procedures and don't return for routine care. Our surgical DPMs in this area want every patient for themselves; except house calls. Perhaps if our group grows big enough we can hire a surgical DPM and not lose patients. I'd be extremely happy if a surgical DPM comes on board with us in the future so we can get hospital consults and retain surgical patients.
Regarding residency, there isn't much to analyze. It's a matching process and I didn't match with any program years ago. I defiinitely want this training at some point, but it's not likely to be this year.

 

[heeltoe]

The number of students a school is permitted to take is set by some central board is it not? The same board that would approve new schools and more seats? I am seriously asking.

I dont have a problem with unqualified students not getting residencies. Fail boards/classes/etc = dont get a residency = ok.

What I do have a problem with is students who passed boards, classes, rotations graduating and not getting a residency regardless of what school they came from (the schools are regulated to some sort of standard arent they?). How anyone can justify this as being ok I just dont understand. Its obviously not just posters on here as the powers that be think its ok as well (current residency shortage). Its not one of the "pro's" of podiatry imo as a future grad.

 

[BuckeyeDoctor]

Would Temple like a cookie?

Sure.

Western enrolled 38 students and has almost opened up enough new residencies for each one of them.

AZPOD only lets in a little over 30 new students and until this last year had 100% first time pass rates

Western isn't even fully accrediated yet so they are forcibly limited on how many students they can take and even students that would want to go there.

AZPOD is the newest accrediated school so their admissions reflect that.

Temple (until they follow NYCPM's lead) is still very much part of the problem

Well over 100 kids total scrambled during match this year. Temple had 10 students scramble and only 3 are still looking for a program. Do the math and its not Temple's bottom feeders complaining about not getting residencies because we get them. The problem stems from other schools.

It's not the number of students admitted thats the problem, its the number that graduates. Look at the attrition rates for the schools and you will see the barry's and others have much higher rates would shows they take more students that shouldnt be taken. Temple certainly takes it fair share but you can't say Temple is the worst or one of the worst.

It's great you are interested in the field but you will be much more informed on things when you actually step foot on campus and are a student. You can't rely on SDN and the admissions staff who spin everything for your info

 

[dtrack22]

The fact that Temple students always feel the need to defend their program shows (at some level) a feeling of insecurity about their program/education. You don't see the Barry folk on here posting about how awesome their school actually is when someone like you rags on em. The nice thing about going to a school with reasonable enrollment numbers is that I will most likely never have to come on SDN and try and change the perception of my school. As far as attrition goes, Ohio is on top of the list, and then you have a group that includes Temple. They may not be as high as an NYCPM but at least NY has taken measures in the last year or two cut their enrollment. Temple seems perfectly content with losing a handful of kids every class. That is the problem. How can an admissions committee, full of supposedly responsible adults, X number of kids year after year knowing that only X-Y number of kids seem to be graduating every year?

Congrats though on taking care of the successful students and setting up a handful of others for failure. Although, like I posted earlier, a lot of the blame needs to be put squarely on the shoulders of the students who are dreaming to think their 18M MCAT is a predictor of success in podiatry school.

 

[PodunkUDPM]

I think Barry, NYCPM and Western are the biggest problems but that is just me. NYCPM would take more students if they could but the school is so bad they aren't allowed. Everybody knows about Barry and Western opens up when there is no demand. None of this really matters though. The real fact of the matter is there needs to be adequate residency slots for whatever amount of seats are available as designated by the CPME...

 

[mildoc2016]

Would Temple like a cookie? The previous posts have nothing to do with the TOP students coming out of Temple, rather it's the 10-20 on the bottom that don't always "deserve" a residency spot because they don't always "pass" their boards.



In order from largest class size to smallest
Ohio
Temple
Scholl
NY
...

NY has recently cut a few seats from their freshman class and scholl has some of the highest entrance standards amongst all programs. Ohio and Temple let in the most students each year and subsequently have higher attrition rates than any of the other programs. But here's the "other programs" that you speak of:

Western enrolled 38 students and has almost opened up enough new residencies for each one of them.

AZPOD only lets in a little over 30 new students and until this last year had 100% first time pass rates

DMU admits around 58 students and has near perfect first time pass rates as well.

Barry also enrolls just under 60 students per year

Sam Merritt has approximately the same numbers as the two previous programs

Ohio has to be the worst, but Temple (until they follow NYCPM's lead) is still very much part of the problem. No matter how many amazing DPMs they produce, it doesn't change the fact that they accept too many unqualified students who are ultimately being set up for failure...and of course to post on SDN about how they can't get a residency (ie podpal)

Im graudating from OCPM this year, have passed boards I, and matched. The last numbers I heard were about 20-25 did not initially match, now down to 8. Some of those 8 have not passed boards 1. Just pointing out that not all the ocpmers on this board are complaining.

 

[Sig Savant]

Hahaha, oh podunk. Your words of wisdom are so wise.

NYCPM would take more students if they could but the school is so bad they aren't allowed.

I don't know how you concocted this sentence. NYCPM lessened their enrollment by increasing their standards.

"Bad" is such a vague word that I don't even know if you are alluding to the building, professors, who knows.

And who is not allowing them?? Exactly who tells each institution how many students they can take? I thought that was the point here, that no one caps the enrollment. NYCPM's administrators decide how many students to accept, and they decided to take only the best applicants.

I think western is great because they will develop a strong program and hopefully produce great clinicians.

 

[PodunkUDPM]

Hahaha, oh podunk. Your words of wisdom are so wise.


I don't know how you concocted this sentence. NYCPM lessened their enrollment by increasing their standards.

"Bad" is such a vague word that I don't even know if you are alluding to the building, professors, who knows.

And who is not allowing them?? Exactly who tells each institution how many students they can take? I thought that was the point here, that no one caps the enrollment. NYCPM's administrators decide how many students to accept, and they decided to take only the best applicants.

I think western is great because they will develop a strong program and hopefully produce great clinicians.

There is a national accrediting group that limits enrollment at each school. NYCPM wasn't up to snuff so they were forced to decrease their enrollment.

 

[KaTrInAtF4]

I think Barry, NYCPM and Western are the biggest problems but that is just me. NYCPM would take more students if they could but the school is so bad they aren't allowed. Everybody knows about Barry and Western opens up when there is no demand. None of this really matters though. The real fact of the matter is there needs to be adequate residency slots for whatever amount of seats are available as designated by the CPME...

Not sure how Western can be part of the residency shortage problem when they won't even graduate their first class until 2013??? And as a previous poster pointed out, they are opening up new residency positions -hopefully enough for their graduating class.

 

[Feli]

...NY has recently cut a few seats from their freshman class...

Or maybe, in the face of a residency shortage, CPME reviewed the stats on enrollment and NBPME passage, lowered NYCPM's max allowed enrollment cap, and has put actual enforcement penalties into effect?

Would an independent pod school that has a history of accepting at/over its cap almost regardless of applicant quality and depends entirely on student tuition and clinic inflow voluntarily lower its tution income inflow out of newfound concern for quality of its students/grads and their residency hopes? You do the math.

The integrated pod schools have a lot more financial security since they are just one degree program and one form of cash flow at the large university. That lets them leave pod seats unfilled if the quality apps aren't there in a given cycle. The stand alone pod schools have basically one income and one income only, though: student tuition and clinic revenue (aka student labor).

 

[PADPM]

Not sure where this is coming from. Has Temple accepted a few too many students in the most recent years? Probably. But they aren't alone.

At least one of you stated you didn't even apply to the school yet you seem to know about how bad it is. I would remind you to look at the match lists when they start to trickle out on here and compare it to your schools and see where Temple stacks up.


Temple alum are some of the most influential members players in the game. Chang, Banks, Downy, Malay, Schoenhaus, Crawford, and the list goes on.

Every school contributes to the problem and none are immune from their own issues which bring it down in the eyes of others.

First of all, the doctors you mentioned are all excellent and I actually know most of them personally.

And as much as I may want to defend Temple, this particular point (naming these alumni) really has no validity to the matter at hand. We are speaking of the PRESENT situation, not the past situation.

As I've already stated, the doctors you've mentioned are all excellent, but are not applicable to the present situation. For example, Harold Schoenhaus is about 63 years of age or greater, and at the time of his graduation, residency positions were probably available for only 40-50% of grads. Scott Malay and Michael Downey were classmates with one another and both were residency mates in Atlanta with Dr. McGlammary and both Michael and Scott are 52 or 53 years of age. Again, the residency rate was about 40-50% at that time.

The quality of those doctors has nothing to do with the present situation and acceptance rates in the schools during the present time. Additionally, when the doctors mentioned above were in school, I believe that there were only the five schools, (PCPM (Temple), OCPM, CCPM (California), NYCPM and ICPM/Illinois/"Scholl.

Once again, I highly respect all of the doctors mentioned, but those times have nothing to do with the present crisis/situation. Standards were certainly different back then, and the almighty dollar didn't speak so loudly in that era.

Podfather knows exactly what I mean, because he's "old school" like I am regarding that issue. That's exactly why his program, similar to ours, turned away candidates and would continue to turn away candidates even if it meant not filling slots if it meant compromising our programs with low quality/caliber graduates.

 

[air bud]

Temple alum are some of the most influential members players in the game. Chang, Banks, Downy, Malay, Schoenhaus, Crawford, and the list goes on.

Yeah, I love this argument. Its like sports talk radio/blog nerds that talk about how Notre Dame football is still a top program and if they just get the right coach they will be winning national championships again. They cant face reality. The game has changed. Kids don't care about Knute Rockne and other the other great Notre Dame football players from years ago. They want a program that has has the best facilities, nice weather, hot girls and will give them the best chance to succeed in the future. Guess what kids, that is Florida or USC, not Notre Dame. Quit living in the past. It's about the is and now, not the was and when.
But I guess I should be talking about podiatry here...

 

[dtrack22]

...

 

[PADPM]

dtrack,

Thanks for what I "think" is a compliment, although I'm not sure my accomplishments have been as grand as Joe Montana's, nor is planned retirement in my near future. It's also nice to know I'm still "relevant", but I can assure you that I'm probably not as "old" as you think, although it's obvious that term is relative.

I've got QUITE a few years before I can qualify for "early bird dinners", discounts at the movies or entry into an "adult" community!

Believe it or not, I don't even take Centrum Silver vitamins and I'm still out on the soccer field running circles around most of the young studs.

My experience and the experience of podfather doesn't make us "old", it simply makes us a little wiser.

 

[jonwill]

I've got QUITE a few years before I can qualify for "early bird dinners", discounts at the movies or entry into an "adult" community!

I was in Orlando this past week for AO. I saw some nice retirement communities. Let me know if you're interested 🙂

 

[PADPM]

Jon,

You'll be a seasoned "attending" and hopefull board certified and interviewing your new associate when I'm ready qualify for one of those communities.

I've got to go now, because I've got to bring my abacus to the repair shop.

 

[cool_vkb]

So what exactly can the people who didnt got residnecy do?
What are the states they can get license or work? What will be their life like?

 

[Greattoe]

I'm a 4th year student and I'm still scrambling I have a couple of interviews lined up, but I'm not holding my breath. There are still a lot of us out there and only a few spots left. I didn't do great in school, I'm in the upper 70's grade wise, I passed part 1 boards on the first try and am awaiting boards part 2 scores to come out and hopefully it will be another successful attempt. If I successfully pass both sets of boards yet my gpa is not as high as someone who hasn't even passed boards part 1 and they are placed in a residency, how is that fair? My school does not allow us to do clinical rotations without passing boards part 1, yet other schools do. I'll assume those schools have a higher gpa average than my school as well. Any suggestions as what to do without a residency for a year?

 

[janV88]

If I successfully pass both sets of boards yet my gpa is not as high as someone who hasn't even passed boards part 1 and they are placed in a residency, how is that fair? My school does not allow us to do clinical rotations without passing boards part 1, yet other schools do.

I thought passing part 1 and part 2 were required??

 

[165007]

I'm a 4th year student and I'm still scrambling I have a couple of interviews lined up, but I'm not holding my breath. There are still a lot of us out there and only a few spots left. I didn't do great in school, I'm in the upper 70's grade wise, I passed part 1 boards on the first try and am awaiting boards part 2 scores to come out and hopefully it will be another successful attempt. If I successfully pass both sets of boards yet my gpa is not as high as someone who hasn't even passed boards part 1 and they are placed in a residency, how is that fair? My school does not allow us to do clinical rotations without passing boards part 1, yet other schools do. I'll assume those schools have a higher gpa average than my school as well. Any suggestions as what to do without a residency for a year?

sounds like you're from DMU?

 

[215353]

sounds like you're from DMU?

Let's make a possible scenario out of this and say this person is from DMU. An avg of high 70's is relatively good since the podiatry students at DMU take all of their classes with the osteopathic medical school students.

The mentality in allopathic and osteopathic medical schools is that any grade over 70% is satisfactory and warrants competency in that discipline. If a MD or DO student is successful in passing all three steps of the USMLE or COMLEX then students with avgs in the high 70's usually earn residency spots in internal medicine, family medicine...basically residency programs that are less competitive (UNLESS they destroy their boards)

But in podiatry this could mean no residency??? It's debatable to say that all curriculums btw all podiatric medical schools are equal. Being that I am pre-pod I am not going to point fingers at certain schools...because I don't know. But after reading enough posts in the podiatry forum I have come to the conclusion that most people here don't think all podiatry schools are equal.

Why should the podiatry student from DMU be punished when actually they are handling the demanding curriculum rather well? Why should his/her DO counterparts, who might be getting the same grades or lower, be able to land a residency and have a future?

It's a scenario like this that makes me feel uneasy. I was speaking with another future Scholl student about this and on a positive note it was stated that a lot can happen in 4 years while we are in school. Who knows maybe this residency shortage will be corrected by then.

 

[165007]

.

 

[g squared 23]

If a MD or DO student is successful in passing all three steps of the USMLE or COMLEX then students with avgs in the high 70's usually earn residency spots in internal medicine, family medicine...basically residency programs that are less competitive (UNLESS they destroy their boards)

But in podiatry this could mean no residency???

I am going to have to respectfully disagree with the statements above. First of all for medical students, pre-clinical grades mean very little compared to clinical scores during 3rd and 4th year as well as the boards which are HEAVILY weighted. Some medical schools even have the Honors/Pass/Fail grading scale in place the first 2 years taking GPA out of the equation entirely.

Regarding podiatry school and the opportunity for postgraduate training, preclinical grades are similarly weighted. Yes, some programs do have a minimum GPA requirement to even extern. But at the end of the day (and end of your clerkship and subsequent interview), you are going to be judged on your clinical knowledge, skill, and problem solving abilities. It isn't going to matter if you had a 70% all the way through pod school; if you are a stud in the clinic, very few programs would choose a poorer clinical student over you (of course assuming all politics are taken out of the equation).

As far as schools are concerned, I don't think all are of the same quality. Everyone thinks that theirs is best. But I firmly believe that the top podiatry students would still be "on top" at any school in the country (including MD/DO schools). What might distinguish the top tier pod schools from the poorer ones is how their students at the bottom of the class fare. Everyone's top students are going to do well and match at the best programs. But the really good schools are the ones producing as many compentent students from each class as possible and making them "residency ready" when they go out on clerkships.

 

[Sig Savant]

All of the schools are definitely not equal.

Didn't someone post on here about a month ago, that around 30 first years at OCPM had 4.0 GPAs?

 

[Podfather]

Here are the common sense answers:

A good student will do well at any of the schools and a bad one may do better at one vs. another. But they are still a bad student. This may be exposed during externship and or residency interviews.

For most residencies arrogance, social ineptness( is that a word?LOL), and uncontrollable anxiety during questioning will nullify great scores. After all like it or not, podiatry is under the microscope and no one wants to bring someone into their hospital that will bring drama. In addition our patients are undergoing (most of the time) elective procedures and we want them to feel comfortable with the residents. Granted a trauma patient or very sick patient may not care (they just want to get better) but a pleasant, caring, hard working resident is a tremendous asset. I see some who have not matched spew poison, arrogance, and negativity that may be the reason they are in their situation.

Having said the above, we as a profession do owe everyone who graduates and passes national boards the right to practice which means some type of residency. Those who fail boards well you may be on your own. If you fail the bar exam even after graduating law school you can not practice law. The schools who have high failure rates of boards are either selecting poor students or not educating and should pay some penalty.

If you will graduate and pass the boards I believe you are truly a victim if you didn't match. However if you have issues that make you a risk then a program should not have to grant you a position. Perhaps an honest look as to why you are one of 30 is a starting point. Once the part 2 results are released, there will be another scramble since some who matched may have failed. I would get a letter out (if you passed) to all programs the day those results are released. They will be in panic mode if someone they selected failed ( a huge snafu for a residency and should be addressed).

 

[mildoc2016]

.

 

[cool_vkb]

Since majority of us take loans which are guaranteed by the US govt. I think the govt should intervene or set up a regulating body which strictly enforces number of seats vs number of positions. This is not just students issue now. The US taxpayers also have a stake in this.

If these 35 individuals dont get residnecy. a good chance is that they will forefeit the $150K-200K loan they took. Who gets punished in the end? We the US taxpayers. So as a taxpayer i believe i have a right to ensure my tax money is being used for stuff which makes sense.

Just as we set up bodies to monitor whats happening to the bank bailouts or other bailouts. we need a govt body that oversees how this student loan is being used and is it turning into profitable venture or not.

Godforbid if these 35 individuals default then thats 7 million USD we are talking here. next year its going to be more. And why will they not default? How the heck are they gonna pay the installment when their Podiatry degree is worthless without an additional residency! Ha ha in great wisdom we moved forward and many states changed the licensure requirement. Atleast back in 80s we could clip and chip if we didnt got residnecy.

Once again, iam not saying everyone who graduates should get a residency. All iam saying is the game should be fair. Let programs deny these individuals residency based on their gpa, performance,etc.But right now, even before the game starts you are at disadvantage because we are running short of positions.

What if by some miracle in class of 2011 everyone passes their boards, get an awesome GPA. then even in that batch certain number of individuals will not get match just because we dont have positions. thats not fair!

 

[cool_vkb]

...