Are y’all sure you want to do this?

[amateurbater]

I’ve been thinking a lot recently, and medical school feels like it did last year when I withdrew from waitlists: like staring down the long barrel of a shotgun. You are studying for four years while your friends are out there living life and getting married. Residency can be anywhere between 3-8 years and it’s likely going to be hospital in the morning until hospital in the dark. You likely can’t settle down because there’s no garuntee you’ll match in the city you’re in or do a fellowship in the city you’re in. It’s social death, because how the heck are you going to build a community and have friends if you have to pack your bags and go somewhere? It’s emotional death, because you’re going to strain all of your relationships for years until I’m like, what, thirty-five? Thirty-seven? How many marriages have fallen apart due to training? How many missed birthdays, holidays, events? The money isn’t even that worth it either. After paying off your debt, you’ll be forty before you can spend it all. By then, you’re looking in the rear view mirror. Congrats on the Porsche. It’ll look real nice in the nursing home parking lot. If you have my health, you might not even make it there. You might drop after the 25th hour of your residency shift. All for the sacrifice of medicine. Most doctors I’ve spoken to hate with the ever-increasing red-tape and the fact that the healthcare system is increasingly a business-driven industry. And the people going into medical school are often bright-eyed young kids who don’t know what they’re getting into, because they’ve been pressured into it, or because they’re terrified of the thought of the “real world” so at least the medical school track, as harrowing as it is, is an assured future. Everyday, I wake up and check my email for II’s or A’s but I think the moment I get one I’ll feel happy for a bit, like a good ten seconds, and then the overwhelming dread will overcome me. Like watching, through the glass of my coffin, myself being slowly lowered six feet into the dirt. Gods, I WANT to be a doctor, I can’t imagine myself doing anything else, but I’m signing up for nine years of hell. Ask a resident. The healthcare industry doesn’t give a damn about you, just what you can do to increase its bottom line.

Anyone else feel like that?

How do I know this is right for me, before I’ve signed the death certificate of 400k debt?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[premadbaddie]

I think everyone has these thoughts, and if you don't then you're naive to the realities of healthcare in America You probably won't know it's right for you until you're in it, but yolo

Also, I wouldn't say it's social death

 

[maindoctor42]

"And the people going into medical school are often bright-eyed young kids who don’t know what they’re getting into..."

I think at this point, there are fewer of us on this forum who don't know what we're getting into - I would wager that the majority have heard this trope, and have chosen this path anyways. There may be different levels of understanding about what is to come, but I dislike the perpetual generalization that we do not know what we are getting into. (I do not speak for everyone on this.) Of course, this will be our first time down this path, but that is how every career starts, so we are as prepared as we can be.

While I understand your fears, and I see them reflected in a lot of other premed/medical students, I do not believe that it is beneficial to be so jaded about this life. We see these challenges and have to weigh them against our goals and priorities, and ultimately make our own decision to become a physician. In your description of the life of a physician, I think that your purpose/motivation has been lost.

This may just be a wave of nerves coming over you (which is normal), but if you truly view this path as a coffin, then this should not be your path. Trust the process and remember to enjoy the journey in any way you can, just like the rest of us! Reclaim your reason to pursue medicine and ground yourself in what makes you YOU. (Easier said than done? Likely. But we can only try.)

 

[amateurbater]

I think everyone has these thoughts, and if you don't then you're naive to the realities of healthcare in America You probably won't know it's right for you until you're in it, but yolo

Also, I wouldn't say it's social death

65% of doctor marriages end in divorce according to some random statistics I found online.

 

[premadbaddie]

65% of doctor marriages end in divorce according to some random statistics I found online.

Well who's to say why that is, doesn't mean it's ~because~ they pursued this career path. Plus, that's only 15% above national average and who knows what the margin of error is. My point is, everything is what you make of it - if you're concerned about a bad social life, don't let it be a self fulfilling prophecy.
I'm pretty jaded about the American healthcare system and the role physicians can play but decided to apply this once anyway. Here if you want to talk about it!

 

[pablo213]

Hey man I've seen you posting around here a few times. I understand where many of the fears in your post come from and I think it's important that you're thinking about them. However it does come off a bit as a "grass is greener on the other side" type of post. It seems like you're comparing what a career in medicine will most likely look like to what an idealized career outside of it may be. With respect to job security, the issue isn't trivial. I know a few people (sure small sample size) pursuing careers in engineering industry (in BME and computer engineering) and they're having very difficult times finding jobs. I know everyone and their cousin is making 300k working 5 hours a week on reddit and IRL but that is not at all the reality for most people. They're also having to move to more rural places to find employment. As far as social life goes, you're right that your current relationships may likely suffer. You will miss important events like birthdays, like marriages. That's unfortunately a sacrifice you will have to make, though prioritizing these things at least during medical school could perhaps diminish this. However, you will almost certainly develop beautiful new friendships through med school, residency, and beyond that will allow you to maybe catch up on some of those social milestones you've missed out on. As far as not having money till you're 40, it is a valid point for some specialties. If you care more about money then you could pursue a shorter residency and grind afterwards. You'll be able to catch up to your peers after a few years. The ones in investment banking, quant, big law, and FAANG will probably be grinding even more than you initially.Burn out is another important consideration you mentioned and i think a big reason behind some physicians going part time once they hit attendinghood. If you don't care about money and want to prioritize that side of things, you could consider that avenue as well.

All this to say that you should consider your realistic prospects outside of medicine besides questioning your decision to go to med school. With your current undergrad or grad degrees, will you be able to get a good job (salary, benefits, TC, etc) if you forgo medicine? How long will you be working every week and where? Most importantly, is that something you think you'd enjoy more than medicine long term?

 

[maindoctor42]

65% of doctor marriages end in divorce according to some random statistics I found online.

Correlation does not imply causation. Find the right person, be successful in your career, and join the 35% if this is important to you.

 

[pablo213]

65% of doctor marriages end in divorce according to some random statistics I found online.

Not sure where you found that statistic, but this study from 2015 has physician divorce at rates lower than many healthcare and non-healthcare professions.

Divorce among physicians and other healthcare professionals in the United States: analysis of census survey data

Objectives To estimate the prevalence and incidence of divorce among US physicians compared with other healthcare professionals, lawyers, and non-healthcare professionals, and to analyze factors associated with divorce among physicians. Design Retrospective analysis of nationally representative...

www.bmj.com

 

[j_diggity]

I’ve been thinking a lot recently, and medical school feels like it did last year when I withdrew from waitlists: like staring down the long barrel of a shotgun. You are studying for four years while your friends are out there living life and getting married. Residency can be anywhere between 3-8 years and it’s likely going to be hospital in the morning until hospital in the dark. You likely can’t settle down because there’s no garuntee you’ll match in the city you’re in or do a fellowship in the city you’re in. It’s social death, because how the heck are you going to build a community and have friends if you have to pack your bags and go somewhere? It’s emotional death, because you’re going to strain all of your relationships for years until I’m like, what, thirty-five? Thirty-seven? How many marriages have fallen apart due to training? How many missed birthdays, holidays, events? The money isn’t even that worth it either. After paying off your debt, you’ll be forty before you can spend it all. By then, you’re looking in the rear view mirror. Congrats on the Porsche. It’ll look real nice in the nursing home parking lot. If you have my health, you might not even make it there. You might drop after the 25th hour of your residency shift. All for the sacrifice of medicine. Most doctors I’ve spoken to hate with the ever-increasing red-tape and the fact that the healthcare system is increasingly a business-driven industry. And the people going into medical school are often bright-eyed young kids who don’t know what they’re getting into, because they’ve been pressured into it, or because they’re terrified of the thought of the “real world” so at least the medical school track, as harrowing as it is, is an assured future. Everyday, I wake up and check my email for II’s or A’s but I think the moment I get one I’ll feel happy for a bit, like a good ten seconds, and then the overwhelming dread will overcome me. Like watching, through the glass of my coffin, myself being slowly lowered six feet into the dirt. Gods, I WANT to be a doctor, I can’t imagine myself doing anything else, but I’m signing up for nine years of hell. Ask a resident. The healthcare industry doesn’t give a damn about you, just what you can do to increase its bottom line.

Anyone else feel like that?

How do I know this is right for me, before I’ve signed the death certificate of 400k debt?

I'm a little bit of an elder premed so perhaps I can offer a unique perspective.

First of all, my friends who've gone to med school said it was the best time of their lives. Now that they're in residency, they still love their jobs despite residency being the hardest thing they've ever done. Even so, being an attending is almost universally regarded as awesome and worth it. Eyes on the prize.

But be realistic. Medicine sucks. Residency is especially awful, and I'll probably have some dark thoughts after my 3rd overnight call shift in a week where I just failed to save a 15-year-old from dying a horrifying death while running on 1.5 hours of sleep while my wife/kids (if I'm lucky enough to have them by then) resent me for not being present enough. The core problem is that patients don't stop being sick just because you want to sleep or go home.

Other careers suck for different reasons. Every career has a "**** sandwich" that you have to eat, and YOU have to decide which one you're willing to eat. For me, I was not willing to deal with corporate life, sitting at a desk 40 hours a week, doing meaningless work, even though the money was GREAT. Maybe you should go and do that. I'm not gonna say what you should or shouldn't do since I don't know you.

But I'm a big fan of dropping the rose-colored glasses. Read House of God, Intern, Hot Lights Cold Steel. Listen to stories of residency. Med school will probably be fun/fine but residency is going to suck worse than anything we've ever done. Plus, compensation is decreasing and burnout is increasing, and who knows how AI will impact the field, so just be aware of the risks we're taking.

Then, go out there and do clinical work with patients. Is the feeling of reward worth it? Do you love the sciences? Does this fill a spot in your soul that you didn't know existed? Ultimately, it's the sense of reward from caring for patients that has driven me toward this path. I've never felt anything like it.

My attitude is "This will suck but I've validated that I want to do medicine and nothing else" because I pursued a variety of other interests before getting to this point. I suggest everyone do the same. Get to a point where, when you get old and die, you can look back and say "I'm proud of the choices I made."

Hope this helps. If not you OP then someone else who comes along and reads.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Most doctors I’ve spoken to hate with the ever-increasing red-tape and the fact that the healthcare system is increasingly a business-driven industry. And the people going into medical school are often bright-eyed young kids who don’t know what they’re getting into, because they’ve been pressured into it, or because they’re terrified of the thought of the “real world” so at least the medical school track, as harrowing as it is, is an assured future.

There's a mix of truth and hyperbole here. There have been a ton of changes over the last decade or so in health care, and there will be more changes on the horizon for the next 10 years. We only know what we observe at the time, and very few will know what the future holds for them. (Some topics in Becoming a Student Doctor do focus on this.) Same thing for research, biotech/pharma, and interprofessional scope turf wars.

 

[Hollow Knight]

80% of my med school class (as reported by my administration) has anxiety or depressive symptoms for a reason. Medical training is hard, and depending on where you go, it can be harder or easier.

But doctors still get paid an absurd amount of money to do a job that matters. And how many people can go to work and say they saved a life today? Or contributed to someone living longer? Or feeling physically and emotionally better? And, arguably, you have the best job security in any career. No, midlevels or AI aren't replacing physicians.

It's a you decision. Reading your post I'd recommend not doing it; it sounds like you don't want to make the sacrifices.

Yes, medical training is hard on relationships. You have to be absolutely sure your SO is cool with you working 80 hour weeks most of the time. If not, either that relationship or medical training probably won't work out. My wife told me repeatedly and emphatically that she would absolutely support me working that many hours, and we've still had trouble.

For the record I absolutely think it's worth it.

Edit: hey where are you going that costs 400k?

 

[osprey099]

1. Your concerns are valid, but over-exaggerated in my opinion.
2. Making friends, meeting significant other while doing medical school/residency/fellowship are not mutually exclusive events. It's hard to do both, but definitely doable.
3. Your peers who go into other fields also have to go through some years of extra school or training, albeit much fewer years compared to us. The ones who graduate college and immediate work on Wall Street or Silicon Valley are the minority, and quite honestly, are either more hard working than doctors or smarter than us or both.
4. Most doctors do very well financially in the long run.
5. At least in my field, patients will really respect and value you. Friends and family will come to you for advice. You can't say the same for other jobs.
6. If you are one of the unfortunate ones who graduate with a mountain of debt, pursue PSLF. Downside is you'll have to work for a hospital system rather than private practice for at least the first 10 years. But residency/fellowship counts towards those 10 years.

I'm a PGY6 heme onc fellow. Signed with a private practice starting next summer. Time will fly by. It honestly feels like yesterday when I was at the library studying for my MCATs. You have to enjoy the process, and make the most of it.

 

[CitrusPeel]

Just want to say I hear you and you're not alone. It's really frustrating that it doesn't have to be this way. I have friends who are physicians in other countries and they did not undergo the level of stress that US medical students do, nor did they have to make the same sacrifices in free time, boundaries, and relationships to prove that they want to go into medicine.

What weighs on me is thinking about having a family. I really want kids soon, but it feels like a choice between having them soon but not being present for them, or putting off having kids for 7-8 years, facing decreased fertility, and maybe still not being the parent I want to be because of my job. I firmly want to be a doctor despite all the changes in medicine lately; I know it's how I was meant to serve others and I really look forward to clinical work; I don't mind working hard... but why do we accept so much suffering?

All of this to say, let's get into medicine and unionize the heck out of it ✊

 

[mistafab]

Bruh medicine is great if you get a specialty you love. Totally worth it.

If you dont think you’ll love it dont do it. Not worth it.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Honestly, based on this post I wouldn’t go if I were you. If you’re already having these thoughts, they are only going to get worse once you’re actually in school/residency

 

[tmacreborn28]

It kind of saddens me to see the original poster having such negative thoughts about a career in medicine before even starting. I have quite a few friends who work outside of medicine and trust me, the grass is not always greener on the other side. You have to deal with corporate culture and rounds of layoffs in corporate America, which is no small feat if you are just starting out your career. I think the original poster is probably influenced to some degree by physicians who are burnt out or nearing burning out. I never got into medicine for money, I am a specialist in a high paying specialty making good money and I am driving a 10 year old Nissan and I am very happy about just having a car. The people I see burning are those who equate their success by what they own, to me, having a good financial foundation so my family and I do not have to worry about money after a 30 year career in a field I love is more important. Do I love every decision that administrators at my hospital make? Not at all. But, it is very easy for physicians to find a new job. Sure, there are a lot of physicians who do not get any job satisfaction, and that may be due to a variety of reasons. For me, I love what I do, the relationships I form with my patients and being able to help them is something that is not offered in any other profession.

One thing that does not talked about enough in forums is how physicians can avoid burnout by achieving financial independence. We are in a high paying field comparatively to other professions, thus, as long as you stay financially responsible after becoming an attending, you can certainly step back from full time to focus on family and other things. Trust me, residency is very manageable, more and more residencies are becoming lifestyle-focused to recruit candidates. By the time you are applying to residencies, I suspect, the amount of time you have to spend at the hospital is going to be much less than what you are hearing now.

Lastly, do you not think that working in any other profession makes you a cog in the machine and just there to increase the bottom line as you stated? This is capitalism, and hospitals/practices have to keep the light on to take care of patients, so having perspective is important. I encourage to really search for a mentor who is not burnt out and can actually provide you with some real perspective on what it’s like to be a physician.

 

[Nontrad_FL_LGBT]

I have quite a few friends who work outside of medicine and trust me, the grass is not always greener on the other side. You have to deal with corporate culture and rounds of layoffs in corporate America, which is no small feat if you are just starting out your career.

Fully agreed. I've worked in three tech based roles and either the company has failed or I've been laid off from every single role over the 8ish years I've been at it. I've also gotten top block ratings at every job, been promoted at every job, and gotten big merit raises at every job.

Working in general sucks for various reasons. Just find a job you like doing.

 

[ron_johnson]

idk i have friends in tech who do bankers hours and make like 110k straight out of college, pretty good deal lol.

 

[Nontrad_FL_LGBT]

idk i have friends in tech who do bankers hours and make like 110k straight out of college, pretty good deal lol.

Been there done that, you're also out the door with a month or less of severance the second the company takes a dip. I have been in tech for the better part of a decade and have probably ten close work colleagues I keep up with. Every single one of us has been laid off at least once and most of us several times.

Going from $110k+ to $0 in a 15 minute HR Zoom meeting is a stress you can't understand, esp when you're first starting out and don't have much savings living in a VHCOL tech hub or have a family to support. I was once laid off a month after moving to a HCOL and signing a lease that made sense on a $120k salary. I then had to work 80-90 hours a week between 3 restaurant/retail/manual labor **** stopgap jobs til I found something new a few months later.

The main idea of this thread is that all jobs have pros and cons and you should heavily weigh the things that matter most to you when choosing a profession.

 

[psyspy]

Pgy1 in a cush psych program with good patient exposure in a nice city. I’m happy enough now but would not recommend medicine at all to most people. Most people will simply not benefit from it enough for the work they have to do for it. I got a merit scholarship in med school, but lo and behold, I didn’t do well in med school and was lucky that I liked psych and that I matched where I did. I matched 2nd to last on my list of 9 programs.

I did great in math and quantitative science like chemistry and physics. I was always mid at bio type sciences…and that screwed me over tremendously in med school where I was close to failing multiple modules.

So yea if you feel like your skillset can be applied elsewhere don’t throw your life away in medicine. Even if you do have the skillset, there’s a ton of standing around and doing nothing during hospital rotations in m3/4 and even during residency in certain services (mainly IM). I’d estimate you spend 1 calendar year standing around doing absolutely nothing useful in the hospital by the time you’re done with m3/4 and 1 full pgy1 year of IM if you choose to do IM.

But of course, most of you will see the people (most of whom in denial) saying “I’m doing great and loving life in med school” and think that’ll be you. If you’re someone that loathes external locus of control, get ready, you have 7+ years of that from the start of m1. Don’t even get me started on the ruminating about college/premed years where you realize all the unpaid work you had to do ever since you were 18 or so. Oh and nowadays the 2+ gap years, and the MCAT studying, and the full year it takes to apply

Honestly thinking about it has me admiring the tenacity of NP students, who realize that a $ in their 20s (and *maybe possibly* 30s) is worth far more than one in their 40s

 

[psyspy]

idk i have friends in tech who do bankers hours and make like 110k straight out of college, pretty good deal lol.

lol. If they’re from t10 school, it’s a whole lot more than that first year out of undergrad

 

[psyspy]

Been there done that, you're also out the door with a month or less of severance the second the company takes a dip. I have been in tech for the better part of a decade and have probably ten close work colleagues I keep up with. Every single one of us has been laid off at least once and most of us several times.

Going from $110k+ to $0 in a 15 minute HR Zoom meeting is a stress you can't understand, esp when you're first starting out and don't have much savings living in a VHCOL tech hub or have a family to support. I was once laid off a month after moving to a HCOL and signing a lease that made sense on a $120k salary. I then had to work 80-90 hours a week between 3 restaurant/retail/manual labor **** stopgap jobs til I found something new a few months later.

The main idea of this thread is that all jobs have pros and cons and you should heavily weigh the things that matter most to you when choosing a profession.

But you realize you could be working for 7 years in med school and residency for little to no pay (and likely being straight up poor in residency) for a specialty that you cannot increase your sub 300k salary in, that you must pay off loans with, and that will continue to decline in reimbursements every year? Judging by your handle and you saying you lived in a VHCOL city, I think I know which one.

In 5y, New York will probably be cheaper than it. Inflation there is literally near 10% from what I see online. Idk if you still plan on living there but 300k won’t be enough for a decent house to support a family in there

 

[ron_johnson]

lol. If they’re from t10 school, it’s a whole lot more than that first year out of undergrad

Yeah I know few people like that who work for FAANG but even the people in garden variety corporate tech jobs are pushing 120k

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Yeah I know few people like that who work for FAANG but even the people in garden variety corporate tech jobs are pushing 120k

Not even just tech anymore. Financial analysts at companies (which is not a hard job to get, just major in finance and don’t fail) make like 110k after bonuses. That’s not investment banking, just corporate finance.

Doctors haven’t seen the pay increases other fields have since 2020

 

[jamaica jan sun princess]

Staring at a computer for 40-60 hours a week as a consultant is pretty boring and sedentary, trust me. I recently realized no amount of money would make this job truly interesting. Medicine involves delayed gratification but at least it’s (presumably) interesting. If you only care about a high paying career, skip medicine.

 

[CitrusPeel]

But you realize you could be working for 7 years in med school and residency for little to no pay (and likely being straight up poor in residency) for a specialty that you cannot increase your sub 300k salary in, that you must pay off loans with, and that will continue to decline in reimbursements every year? Judging by your handle and you saying you lived in a VHCOL city, I think I know which one.

In 5y, New York will probably be cheaper than it. Inflation there is literally near 10% from what I see online. Idk if you still plan on living there but 300k won’t be enough for a decent house to support a family in there

Sorry but I think this is a little silly. Virtually no one in New York has a decent house. 300K is definitely enough to support a family here. Most people get by on much, much less. I definitely get the fear about paying back loans — I have it too — but imo the idea that you’re actually going to struggle to support a family and live in abundance on 300K is unfounded. When I hear premeds complaining that doctor salaries aren’t high enough, what I hear is, “this salary isn’t high enough to live the lifestyle of the absolute richest people in the US.” Those people are destroying the planet and perpetuating inequality. Why would we aspire to that?

 

[Nontrad_FL_LGBT]

Sorry but I think this is a little silly. Virtually no one in New York has a decent house. 300K is definitely enough to support a family here. Most people get by on much, much less. I definitely get the fear about paying back loans — I have it too — but imo the idea that you’re actually going to struggle to support a family and live in abundance on 300K is unfounded. When I hear premeds complaining that doctor salaries aren’t high enough, what I hear is, “this salary isn’t high enough to live the lifestyle of the absolute richest people in the US.” Those people are destroying the planet and perpetuating inequality. Why would we aspire to that?

It's not worth trying to debate with people who think this way tbh. Totally different perspective than what I care about in life.

 

[pablo213]

It's not worth trying to debate with people who think this way tbh. Totally different perspective than what I care about in life.

Seriously. I don't know how so many people seem to know someone making 200k in MAANG working 5 hours a week. High paying jobs like Quant and IB are extremely competitive and the turnover is tremendously high. I was talking to some of my high school friends who went to T10s. They mentioned they started making 200-300k right off the bat. Guess how long they lasted? They were all laid off multiple times or quit within the first year to get a much lower paying job with better quality of life lol. And most of them are lucky because they've actually managed to secure jobs again. One of those guys is still unemployed and a lot of the people I'm graduating with (engineering) cannot find jobs (or the jobs have meh salaries). Grass isn't really that greener on the other side.

 

[Nontrad_FL_LGBT]

Seriously. I don't know how so many people seem to know someone making 200k in MAANG working 5 hours a week. High paying jobs like Quant and IB are extremely competitive and the turnover is tremendously high. I was talking to some of my high school friends who went to T10s. They mentioned they started making 200-300k right off the bat. Guess how long they lasted? They were all laid off multiple times or quit within the first year to get a much lower paying job with better quality of life lol. And most of them are lucky because they've actually managed to secure jobs again. One of those guys is still unemployed and a lot of the people I'm graduating with (engineering) cannot find jobs (or the jobs have meh salaries). Grass isn't really that greener on the other side.

I literally just got laid off on Friday for the third time in 5 years. Top performer in the entire company, 98/100 on my main metric. VC doesn't give a damn how good you are, you're a salary and ID number on a spreadsheet. 🤷‍♂️

Also, most people do not come from a top 10 school so it's a totally moot point to talk about how you "can make $200k easy." People who think they'd be amazing engineers or quants or even regular financial analysis just because they're premeds or med students kinda grind my gears. Totally different skills and mind set.

It is what it is, but if you can't live happily on $200k anywhere on the planet it's a you problem.

 

[j_diggity]

Y’all, just don’t expect a career to fulfill your dreams. If you’re lucky and work extremely hard, you’ll end up with a career that feels somewhat rewarding and pays pretty well. But if you’re even luckier, you’ll have a family and friends around you that bring you joy and teach you that your family and relationships are what life is really all about at the end of the day.

 

[amateurbater]

This devolved into a conversation about money when my inquiry was about the value of experimenting in youth before committing to the path of medicine. I just recently got a job in a city I love surrounded by my best friends who have all moved here and have the most vibrant social and dating life I could have asked for. Literally picture a dream early 20s and I’m living it. It’s what I thought I wanted. And, at the end of the day, if a medical school came calling I’d drop everything and go. Because while this is all fun and good, and I’m happy, the truth is that life is short and all we are is the impression we leave behind. There is no greater joy than dedicating yourself to a worthwhile cause. Right now I’m working a meaningless 9-5 job. The pay is good. The work is easy. But it’s not the same as taking care of a life. Even if I get paid boatloads of money in tech, or, god forbid, finance, that still pales in comparison to the joy of medicine. Working as an Operations Associate at Name & Name or some Patrick Bateman-esque suit in some corporate office sounds awful to me because that’s hours of your life you’re giving up in service of…what? Money? Medicine is about sacrifice, and that’s one of the greatest joys/burdens about the field. Sure I may be worked dogged as a resident, but that patient is alive because of me, that child can walk because of me. You can’t say that in any other field. I’ve discovered I’m someone who would rather live to work than work to live. Time has passed since my initial post, and I’ve given it a lot of thought - A LOT — and I’m convinced that this path is one worth traveling. Nothing in life is promised except death, ultimately, and if I’m on my deathbed I’d prefer to look back at the lives I’ve saved rather than the spreadsheets I’ve compiled.

 

[anon2]

This devolved into a conversation about money when my inquiry was about the value of experimenting in youth before committing to the path of medicine. [...] Time has passed since my initial post, and I’ve given it a lot of thought - A LOT — and I’m convinced that this path is one worth traveling. Nothing in life is promised except death, ultimately, and if I’m on my deathbed I’d prefer to look back at the lives I’ve saved rather than the spreadsheets I’ve compiled.

Good that you found the answer to your question.

I literally just got laid off on Friday for the third time in 5 years. Top performer in the entire company, 98/100 on my main metric. VC doesn't give a damn how good you are, you're a salary and ID number on a spreadsheet. 🤷‍♂️

Also, most people do not come from a top 10 school so it's a totally moot point to talk about how you "can make $200k easy." People who think they'd be amazing engineers or quants or even regular financial analysis just because they're premeds or med students kinda grind my gears. Totally different skills and mind set.

It is what it is, but if you can't live happily on $200k anywhere on the planet it's a you problem.

Exactly. Did not go to T10, worked in Wall Street and FAANG. Nobody's really working 5 hours a week, more like psych/rads lifestyle, a clean 40 instead of 80+.

I retired after 10 years in industry. By living on the median income while making an order of magnitude more (read: orthopod money). Yes, in NYC and SFO. Let's just say the psychological benefits of freedom from capitalism is what I bought, instead of idk Teslas and white picket fences that chain me to a job.

 

[maindoctor42]

This devolved into a conversation about money when my inquiry was about the value of experimenting in youth before committing to the path of medicine. I just recently got a job in a city I love surrounded by my best friends who have all moved here and have the most vibrant social and dating life I could have asked for. Literally picture a dream early 20s and I’m living it. It’s what I thought I wanted. And, at the end of the day, if a medical school came calling I’d drop everything and go. Because while this is all fun and good, and I’m happy, the truth is that life is short and all we are is the impression we leave behind. There is no greater joy than dedicating yourself to a worthwhile cause. Right now I’m working a meaningless 9-5 job. The pay is good. The work is easy. But it’s not the same as taking care of a life. Even if I get paid boatloads of money in tech, or, god forbid, finance, that still pales in comparison to the joy of medicine. Working as an Operations Associate at Name & Name or some Patrick Bateman-esque suit in some corporate office sounds awful to me because that’s hours of your life you’re giving up in service of…what? Money? Medicine is about sacrifice, and that’s one of the greatest joys/burdens about the field. Sure I may be worked dogged as a resident, but that patient is alive because of me, that child can walk because of me. You can’t say that in any other field. I’ve discovered I’m someone who would rather live to work than work to live. Time has passed since my initial post, and I’ve given it a lot of thought - A LOT — and I’m convinced that this path is one worth traveling. Nothing in life is promised except death, ultimately, and if I’m on my deathbed I’d prefer to look back at the lives I’ve saved rather than the spreadsheets I’ve compiled.

I appreciate the time and thought that you put into this question, and that you made this decision for yourself. As you can see, the answer is different for every person! I agree with your sentiment, and I wish you fulfillment, joy, and happiness in your journey. Rooting for you!

 

[psyspy]

Sorry but I think this is a little silly. Virtually no one in New York has a decent house. 300K is definitely enough to support a family here. Most people get by on much, much less. I definitely get the fear about paying back loans — I have it too — but imo the idea that you’re actually going to struggle to support a family and live in abundance on 300K is unfounded. When I hear premeds complaining that doctor salaries aren’t high enough, what I hear is, “this salary isn’t high enough to live the lifestyle of the absolute richest people in the US.” Those people are destroying the planet and perpetuating inequality. Why would we aspire to that?

“Blah blah income inequality blah blah”

The world isn’t equal, nor will it ever be. The general public certainly isn’t equal to someone with a medical degree, so I don’t know why you’re giving them as an example.

 

[psyspy]

Y’all, just don’t expect a career to fulfill your dreams. If you’re lucky and work extremely hard, you’ll end up with a career that feels somewhat rewarding and pays pretty well. But if you’re even luckier, you’ll have a family and friends around you that bring you joy and teach you that your family and relationships are what life is really all about at the end of the day.

Yea but then what’s the point of emotionally, financially, and spiritually slogging through medical school and residency if it’s going to be “just another job”

 

[psyspy]

This devolved into a conversation about money when my inquiry was about the value of experimenting in youth before committing to the path of medicine. I just recently got a job in a city I love surrounded by my best friends who have all moved here and have the most vibrant social and dating life I could have asked for. Literally picture a dream early 20s and I’m living it. It’s what I thought I wanted. And, at the end of the day, if a medical school came calling I’d drop everything and go. Because while this is all fun and good, and I’m happy, the truth is that life is short and all we are is the impression we leave behind. There is no greater joy than dedicating yourself to a worthwhile cause. Right now I’m working a meaningless 9-5 job. The pay is good. The work is easy. But it’s not the same as taking care of a life. Even if I get paid boatloads of money in tech, or, god forbid, finance, that still pales in comparison to the joy of medicine. Working as an Operations Associate at Name & Name or some Patrick Bateman-esque suit in some corporate office sounds awful to me because that’s hours of your life you’re giving up in service of…what? Money? Medicine is about sacrifice, and that’s one of the greatest joys/burdens about the field. Sure I may be worked dogged as a resident, but that patient is alive because of me, that child can walk because of me. You can’t say that in any other field. I’ve discovered I’m someone who would rather live to work than work to live. Time has passed since my initial post, and I’ve given it a lot of thought - A LOT — and I’m convinced that this path is one worth traveling. Nothing in life is promised except death, ultimately, and if I’m on my deathbed I’d prefer to look back at the lives I’ve saved rather than the spreadsheets I’ve compiled.

Sure but much of medicine now has a strong corporate element. You’ll see how many hours you’re spending typing away on the computer for ever increasing documentation requirements.

How do you know medicine is necessarily a worthwhile cause? Will you think that when you have to appease hospital admin, private equity, and insurance companies who all will likely have a large say in how you practice, and who will very often deviate from standards of care?

I didn’t even mention the patient-specific aspect. “Saving a life”. Yes it is gratifying in some cases. In many cases however you’ll be succumbing to external pressures to “keep a life living that has long since expired”. You’ll also be pleading with patients to “save their own lives” who won’t even lift a finger to do so. I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but the general America in the last 10y has incurred a serious cultural rot that shows in the populace

 

[jhmmd]

I can't believe that there are people who need psychiatric help for their careers. Sheesh.
Internet.

 

[chssoccer7]

I can't believe that there are people who need psychiatric help for their careers. Sheesh.
Internet.

what does this even mean?

 

[jhmmd]

It means that you are a waste of money and time

 

[chssoccer7]

It means that you are a waste of money and time

I am a waste of money and time for asking what your comment meant? Let's get back to the point of the OP without taking out our angst on the internet, please.

 

[jhmmd]

I am a waste of money and time for asking what your comment meant? Let's get back to the point of the OP without taking out our angst on the internet, please.

You sure seem to spend a lot of time on the internet for someone without any "angst." For someone without a crayon or a publication.

 

[jhmmd]

You're welcome

 

[chssoccer7]

You sure seem to spend a lot of time on the internet for someone without any "angst." For someone without a crayon or a publication.

I have 184 (well, 185 now) posts in the 9 years i've been on this site. I'm not sure that qualifies as "a lot of time on the internet", nor do you know quite literally anything about me (nor I you, for that matter).

Further, none of our rambling has anything to do with the thread nor is it helping anyone involved in it. Let's move on.

 

[jhmmd]

 

[amateurbater]

The above interactions are dumb enough that I realize it’s time to lock the thread.

 

[amateurbater]

An update on this thread:

I am so glad I didn’t get into medical school this year, holy s***. Medical schools probably saw what I did: that I did not want to do this. I formed a startup and I’m seeing some amazing traction right now and realizing this is what I was meant to do, NOT medicine. Maybe it’s cope. But I wake up every morning excited to be alive, excited to work, excited to flex my creative muscles to strategize our next moves. This sh** felt like staring down the barrel of a shotgun and I realize now, to the bottom of my core, I did not want to be a ratty little physician. Studying for 7 hours a day and getting stepped on by work-obsessed physicians to ultimately be in your mid thirties paying off insane student loans and working crazy hours felt like a death sentence. It feels so freeing not having to worry about a reapplication.

Everything happens for a reason y’all.

Good luck!

 

[Mr.Smile12]

An update on this thread:

I am so glad I didn’t get into medical school this year, holy s***. Medical schools probably saw what I did: that I did not want to do this. I formed a startup and I’m seeing some amazing traction right now and realizing this is what I was meant to do, NOT medicine. Maybe it’s cope. But I wake up every morning excited to be alive, excited to work, excited to flex my creative muscles to strategize our next moves. This sh** felt like staring down the barrel of a shotgun and I realize now, to the bottom of my core, I did not want to be a ratty little physician. Studying for 7 hours a day and getting stepped on by work-obsessed physicians to ultimately be in your mid thirties paying off insane student loans and working crazy hours felt like a death sentence. It feels so freeing not having to worry about a reapplication.

Everything happens for a reason y’all.

Good luck!

Wow! Congratulations to you. Feel free to contribute to our Finance forums too. It's a lot less busy, and perhaps you'll find more like-minded people!

Finance and Investment

Discussion of everything other than financial aid. Includes investment, mortgage, retirement, banking, etc. Co-hosted with The White Coat Investor

forums.studentdoctor.net

 

[Mad Jack]

I’ve been thinking a lot recently, and medical school feels like it did last year when I withdrew from waitlists: like staring down the long barrel of a shotgun. You are studying for four years while your friends are out there living life and getting married. Residency can be anywhere between 3-8 years and it’s likely going to be hospital in the morning until hospital in the dark. You likely can’t settle down because there’s no garuntee you’ll match in the city you’re in or do a fellowship in the city you’re in. It’s social death, because how the heck are you going to build a community and have friends if you have to pack your bags and go somewhere? It’s emotional death, because you’re going to strain all of your relationships for years until I’m like, what, thirty-five? Thirty-seven? How many marriages have fallen apart due to training? How many missed birthdays, holidays, events? The money isn’t even that worth it either. After paying off your debt, you’ll be forty before you can spend it all. By then, you’re looking in the rear view mirror. Congrats on the Porsche. It’ll look real nice in the nursing home parking lot. If you have my health, you might not even make it there. You might drop after the 25th hour of your residency shift. All for the sacrifice of medicine. Most doctors I’ve spoken to hate with the ever-increasing red-tape and the fact that the healthcare system is increasingly a business-driven industry. And the people going into medical school are often bright-eyed young kids who don’t know what they’re getting into, because they’ve been pressured into it, or because they’re terrified of the thought of the “real world” so at least the medical school track, as harrowing as it is, is an assured future. Everyday, I wake up and check my email for II’s or A’s but I think the moment I get one I’ll feel happy for a bit, like a good ten seconds, and then the overwhelming dread will overcome me. Like watching, through the glass of my coffin, myself being slowly lowered six feet into the dirt. Gods, I WANT to be a doctor, I can’t imagine myself doing anything else, but I’m signing up for nine years of hell. Ask a resident. The healthcare industry doesn’t give a damn about you, just what you can do to increase its bottom line.

Anyone else feel like that?

How do I know this is right for me, before I’ve signed the death certificate of 400k debt?

1- The time isn't lost unless you let it be. I've had some great years and met some wonderful people throughout med school, residency, fellowship, and beyond. Most of those other people you know, they're going to college then struggling to find a job. The ones that are well- compensated put in resident hours, and the ones that aren't still tend to grind away at the 9-5. I had more memorable, fun, and interesting times than most of my non-physician friends overall.

2- As to the debt- do PSLF. If you put in 4 years of residency, you've got 6 years in practice before it's all forgiven. The loans will take a paltry 10% of your salary for 10 years, and then they go away forever.

3- You're going to be 40 someday. The question is, do you want to be 40 and doing whatever else you'd do with your life, or do you want to be 40 and a doctor? Age happens whether you want it to or not, the important thing is making sure you live along the way instead of putting everything into some far-off idea of a future.

4- Healthcare may be a business, but you know what else is? Basically everything. My friends stress about numbers and spreadsheets and deadlines constantly, but at least I'm helping keep people happy and alive. Worst case, I'm in psychiatry and can always start my own practice

 

[Mad Jack]

An update on this thread:

I am so glad I didn’t get into medical school this year, holy s***. Medical schools probably saw what I did: that I did not want to do this. I formed a startup and I’m seeing some amazing traction right now and realizing this is what I was meant to do, NOT medicine. Maybe it’s cope. But I wake up every morning excited to be alive, excited to work, excited to flex my creative muscles to strategize our next moves. This sh** felt like staring down the barrel of a shotgun and I realize now, to the bottom of my core, I did not want to be a ratty little physician. Studying for 7 hours a day and getting stepped on by work-obsessed physicians to ultimately be in your mid thirties paying off insane student loans and working crazy hours felt like a death sentence. It feels so freeing not having to worry about a reapplication.

Everything happens for a reason y’all.

Good luck!

Glad you found a path that makes you happy, and I hope it all works out for the best

 

[Fluidity of Movement]

A big problem a lot have is they look at medical school and residency as a pill to swallow to get where they want to be. but the truth is being in medical school should make you happy. being a resident should make you happy. One should *want* to do both. Of course folks are going to choke and burn out if they think of the journey as nothing but a crucible they have to get through to do what they actually want.

Obviously they are hard and there are sacrificies, but that is the true of the entire career

I'm glad you got out and found something