Are you ethically obligated to work for free if asked to do so during these times?

Healthcare jobs with pay you can see.
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dabears505 said:
say you are part of a small group. They say we are out of money, we can't pay you right now. But your skills are needed. Do you feel as a doctor you need to show up and work for free?
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WTF is being “part” of a group?
 
Theoretically, I'd work for free temporarily in an abrupt crisis to save human lives. This is a slow burn though. Seems unlikely that there is no money available to pay for work.
 
anonperson said:
I'll take my chances.

Until the CEO and CFO start working for free, then come talk to me about volunteering my time.
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I'm just telling you how crony capitalism works. Nobody cares that the CEO/CFO are getting millions out of those trillions from the federal government; it was intended so. You're the bad doctor who's letting patients die, not those who don't pay you or don't give you PPE.

Just look up de Blasio's idea about a medical draft.
 
dabears505 said:
say you are part of a small group. They say we are out of money, we can't pay you right now. But your skills are needed. Do you feel as a doctor you need to show up and work for free?
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Just say, "I am willing to serve my community and volunteer to work without pay for the duration of the emergency....At the competing health care system down the road. Can you waive my non-compete?" See how that goes.
 
I would only do it if I was commissioned in the Public Health Service Corps which will entitle me to basic pay and hazard pay. Otherwise, I’m chilling at home.
 
dabears505 said:
say you are part of a small group. They say we are out of money, we can't pay you right now. But your skills are needed. Do you feel as a doctor you need to show up and work for free?
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Is "they" the anesthesia group or the hospital the anesthesia group is contracted with?
 
FFP said:
I'm just telling you how crony capitalism works. Nobody cares that the CEO/CFO are getting millions out of those trillions from the federal government; it was intended so. You're the bad doctor who's letting patients die, not those who don't pay you or don't give you PPE.

Just look up de Blasio's idea about a medical draft.
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But I thought you preferred capitalism to socialism?
 
FFP said:
I'm just telling you how crony capitalism works. Nobody cares that the CEO/CFO are getting millions out of those trillions from the federal government; it was intended so. You're the bad doctor who's letting patients die, not those who don't pay you or don't give you PPE.

Just look up de Blasio's idea about a medical draft.
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True. But that's because they expect doctors to blink first. Most of the time they are right.

De Blasio is a weak a$$ mayor of a city under siege. He's bungled every part of this situation (not closing schools early enough etc). This is his last ditch effort to be relevant after Cuomo has repeatedly crapped on him.

I may be wrong but I have not heard of any other major/governor discuss a draft for physicians.
 
My group is staffing for free because hospital said no pay and our leadership said if we don't show goodwill, then when an AMC comes knocking with bags of money then hospital can show us the door. This is despite being on committees and all. I guess PP you do what you can to preserve your contract
 
anonperson said:
True. But that's because they expect doctors to blink first. Most of the time they are right.

De Blasio is a weak a$$ mayor of a city under siege. He's bungled every part of this situation (not closing schools early enough etc). This is his last ditch effort to be relevant after Cuomo has repeatedly crapped on him.

I may be wrong but I have not heard of any other major/governor discuss a draft for physicians.
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Return to the Draft : Selective Service System

www.sss.gov www.sss.gov

Scroll to the bottom of the page. I'm pretty sure this isn't a new thing though.
 
2Fast2Des said:
My group is staffing for free because hospital said no pay and our leadership said if we don't show goodwill, then when an AMC comes knocking with bags of money then hospital can show us the door. This is despite being on committees and all. I guess PP you do what you can to preserve your contract
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the problem is they will enjoy your free labor now and then STILL replace you with the AMC.

They either value your services or they don’t. Don’t risk your lives for free.
 
caligas said:
the problem is they will enjoy your free labor now and then STILL replace you with the AMC.

They either value your services or they don’t. Don’t risk your lives for free.
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Since they amended our contract, I should ask them if the non compete clause can be adjusted because with the nature of our productivity, we can end up owing the group money if we don't generate well. Especially if volume doesn't ramp up as hoped, then I can't apply for jobs nearby and end up being in a worse financial situation owing money
 
FFP said:
I'm just telling you how crony capitalism works. Nobody cares that the CEO/CFO are getting millions out of those trillions from the federal government; it was intended so. You're the bad doctor who's letting patients die, not those who don't pay you or don't give you PPE.

Just look up de Blasio's idea about a medical draft.
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Are you advocating that or predicting it?
 
sb247 said:
Are you advocating that or predicting it?
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Predicting.

There will be a point where healthcare workers will get fed up with not having PPE, getting sick and dying left and right, possibly for even lower salaries than before (instead of an increase for dangerous workplace). Some people will quit their jobs, others will decide not to risk working even with minimal symptoms.
 
FFP said:
Predicting.

There will be a point where healthcare workers will get fed up with not having PPE, getting sick and dying left and right, possibly for even lower salaries than before.
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Assuming that PPE production ramps up and meets demand, I disagree.

Human beings can be convinced to charge machine gun nests, Throw themselves on grenades, Blow themselves and their fellow man to bits.
We can be convinced to put ourselves at risk caring for members of our communities right in front of us, even if the salaries drop or disappear.
 
dr doze said:
Assuming that PPE production ramps up and meets demand, I disagree.

Human beings can be convinced to charge machine gun nests, Throw themselves on grenades, Blow themselves and their fellow man to bits.
We can be convinced to put ourselves at risk caring for members of our communities right in front of us, even if the salaries drop or disappear.
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All those human beings you mentioned are usually military, not civilian. The reason we don't speak about the Spanish flu is, apparently, that Americans were AWFUL to each other. It was nothing like after 9/11, for example.

When one has to take care of 30-40 Covid patients 12 hours/day, every day, humanity disappears and the selfish monster comes out. We ain't seen nothing yet, because we still have weeks to go till peak, and we still don't have many healthcare workers infected.
 
FFP said:
All those human beings you mentioned are usually military, not civilian. The reason we don't speak about the Spanish flu is, apparently, that Americans were AWFUL to each other.

When one has to take care of 30-40 Covid patients 12 hours/day, every day, humanity disappears and the selfish monster comes out. We ain't seen nothing yet, because we still have weeks to go till peak, and we still don't have many healthcare workers infected.
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Some will walk away. Many will step up, because they know that walking away will haunt them.
 
dr doze said:
Assuming that PPE production ramps up and meets demand, I disagree.

Human beings can be convinced to charge machine gun nests, Throw themselves on grenades, Blow themselves and their fellow man to bits.
We can be convinced to put ourselves at risk caring for members of our communities right in front of us, even if the salaries drop or disappear.
Click to expand...
Human willingness to sacrifice themselves for others is entirely dependent on the bond created amongst those involved. If I was in a war, would I charge with my battalion in unity? Yes. Would I throw myself on a grenade in order to save 50 others who fought and died side by side with me? Yes.
If I was in an epicenter and I saw my friends and colleagues working to death in the ED, would I go to help them? Yes. If one of my friends fell ill during his/her shift, would I pick up extra work? Yes.
Because at that point, it's not about the work, pay, or even the virus itself. It's about responsibility and duty to the people whom you work with, under the belief that they would do the same for you if needed.

With that said, would I ever travel to a distant part of the country if I didn't already live and work in the epicenter? No. Because, for that to occur, the driving mentality would need to be the idea of a united country. This is why empires are so hell bent on pushing the abstract idea of its own grandeur - ie. Rome, US, etc.
However, as these empires decline, and political division deepens while selfishness increases, such an idea falls apart.
 
Planktonmd said:
All I have to say is that now is the wrong time for anyone to stick their neck out... it will be chopped.
The crisis will end sooner or later and all of us will have to live with the consequences of our decisions.
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Would you argue against those consequences (resisitng being forced to work against their will) or support them?
 
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i think at a certain point you will have to choose a side. things will change after covid i believe.

and there is no reason why you should be working for free especially if admin is still taking a paycheck. the front line professionals should be the LAST people to work for free. they can argue for it if everyone else already took a paycut to zero, and then ask you for help, fine, different situation and is more debateable. but if admin is sitting on their 100% paycheck, zero reason why you should work for free.

2Fast2Des said:
My group is staffing for free because hospital said no pay and our leadership said if we don't show goodwill, then when an AMC comes knocking with bags of money then hospital can show us the door. This is despite being on committees and all. I guess PP you do what you can to preserve your contract
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that is clearly a threat... and shows how little they give a crap about your group. time for all of you to walk. see how they like it when a crappy amc shows up
 
2Fast2Des said:
My group is staffing for free because hospital said no pay and our leadership said if we don't show goodwill, then when an AMC comes knocking with bags of money then hospital can show us the door. This is despite being on committees and all. I guess PP you do what you can to preserve your contract
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Can you elaborate a bit? If you are private practice, why is the hospital saying “no pay”?

Is your group being asked to staff a makeshift ICU or some other duties outside of your normal contractual obligations?
 
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mheat3 said:
PP Onc here... hospital that has antagonized, refused privileges for new partners, and purposefully trashed us and deferred patients away has sent requests for "volunteer" doctors to assist if demand is expected from COVID.... needless to say our response 🤔
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You reap what you sow.
 
I haven’t read all of the responses, so forgive me of this has been mentioned, but this is hitting my fellow year pretty hard. We’re being asked to either function as main OR attendings or ICU docs. When we asked if there was a plan in place to compensate us for our work as board certified docs, the institutional GME office said “nope, we reserve the right to reassign you, and there will be no additional compensation”. Of course, guess where the residents and fellows are being reassigned? Covid positive floors, while the staff making full salary are “available” for OR emergencies. We have zero leverage. It hasn’t felt great.
 
Nivens said:
I haven’t read all of the responses, so forgive me of this has been mentioned, but this is hitting my fellow year pretty hard. We’re being asked to either function as main OR attendings or ICU docs. When we asked if there was a plan in place to compensate us for our work as board certified docs, the institutional GME office said “nope, we reserve the right to reassign you, and there will be no additional compensation”. Of course, guess where the residents and fellows are being reassigned? Covid positive floors, while the staff making full salary are “available” for OR emergencies. We have zero leverage. It hasn’t felt great.
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That’s the nature of medical training. As a fellow you can always say fu(k it and leave and go do locums in NY. Of course since it is April and your fellowship is done in June it’s probably not worth it. Definitely call in sick though 😉
 
Nivens said:
I haven’t read all of the responses, so forgive me of this has been mentioned, but this is hitting my fellow year pretty hard. We’re being asked to either function as main OR attendings or ICU docs. When we asked if there was a plan in place to compensate us for our work as board certified docs, the institutional GME office said “nope, we reserve the right to reassign you, and there will be no additional compensation”. Of course, guess where the residents and fellows are being reassigned? Covid positive floors, while the staff making full salary are “available” for OR emergencies. We have zero leverage. It hasn’t felt great.
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I am so sorry that they put you in such a precarious position. GME has refuted any notion of any trainee/fellow being involved in patient care of any COVID+ patient. Most likely scared of lawsuits. However, placing trainees as sacrificial lamb with no adequate PPE or expected to work >80 hrs a week while attendings can alternate weeks is something that I am noticing around the country and miffed about.
 
dabears505 said:
say you are part of a small group. They say we are out of money, we can't pay you right now. But your skills are needed. Do you feel as a doctor you need to show up and work for free?
Click to expand...
no problem, I will work for free only if hospital CEO goes with me for every intubation or code blue. Let's share the honor right?
 
2Fast2Des said:
My group is staffing for free because hospital said no pay and our leadership said if we don't show goodwill, then when an AMC comes knocking with bags of money then hospital can show us the door. This is despite being on committees and all. I guess PP you do what you can to preserve your contract
Click to expand...

In such an exceptional circumstance I can understand if they perhaps can't continue to pay your full contracted salary without ORs running, but for f uck sake they should at least pay you for whatever improvised hours and roll you are filling for them... if y'all are voluntarily working for free they are taking you for a fool. What makes you think that when the AMC comes knocking with bags of money that you won't still be shown the door just as quickly? Since when have hospitals valued a show of good will over their bottom line and bonus checks?
 
sidefx said:
In such an exceptional circumstance I can understand if they perhaps can't continue to pay your full contracted salary without ORs running, but for f uck sake they should at least pay you for whatever improvised hours and roll you are filling for them... if y'all are voluntarily working for free they are taking you for a fool. What makes you think that when the AMC comes knocking with bags of money that you won't still be shown the door just as quickly? Since when have hospitals valued a show of good will over their bottom line and bonus checks?
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Oh you want a few weeks for free right now? Let’s go ahead and sign this 20yr extension on our group’s exclusive contract
 
2Fast2Des said:
My group is staffing for free because hospital said no pay and our leadership said if we don't show goodwill, then when an AMC comes knocking with bags of money then hospital can show us the door. This is despite being on committees and all. I guess PP you do what you can to preserve your contract
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I believe that's a form of kickback. You are providing a service for below FMV in exchange for exclusive rights to bill.

So either you or the hospital are at risk
 
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