Argosy S.F. & Other Bay Area Programs

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You made me go down the rabbit hole and search out the FSPS person that epitomized all this for me when I first used these forums. Cue memory montage music.

HELP! MSPP, FIT, Argosy, Uni of Hartford, Nova

HELP! MSPP, FIT, Argosy, Uni of Hartford, Nova

HELP! MSPP, FIT, Argosy, Uni of Hartford, Nova

Ph.D./Psy.D. comparison

APA-accredited programs under probation

Occupy the imbalance!
Ahhh, the memories! 4410, shooter, etc.

Regardless of the reasons or justification for these “debates,” (e.g., Ph.D. vs. PsyD; FSPS vs. uni-based; APA accreditation or not), the mere fact that these debates exist and have existed for more than a decade, as well as the nature of the debates, should give pause to anyone considering the FSPS PsyD, non-accredited routes. The bias against these programs is real. The financial hurdles are real. The poor modal outcomes are real. FSPSs closing and leaving their students to fend for themselves is real. While snobbery and condescension on the other side are also real, these represent irrelevant characteristics of individuals as opposed to highly relevant characteristics of a system.

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Ahhh, the memories! 4410, shooter, etc.

Regardless of the reasons or justification for these “debates,” (e.g., Ph.D. vs. PsyD; FSPS vs. uni-based; APA accreditation or not), the mere fact that these debates exist and have existed for more than a decade, as well as the nature of the debates, should give pause to anyone considering the FSPS PsyD, non-accredited routes. The bias against these programs is real. The financial hurdles are real. The poor modal outcomes are real. FSPSs closing and leaving their students to fend for themselves is real. While snobbery and condescension on the other side are also real, these represent irrelevant characteristics of individuals as opposed to highly relevant characteristics of a system.
Wow. That thread was amazing. Excellent read for my Saturday morning coffee time.
 
Several people here talked about applying to same 3-4 Bay Area schools, but no one mentioned CIIS (Cal. Institute of Integral Studies) and JFK University, both APA-accredited PsyD programs. Can I take it that it is not worth applying to those two? Could it be that their reputations are worse than Argosy's? (based on what's been said about this school) :)

I go to school in the Bay Area, so I feel like I can provide a more personal opinion on the general reputations of the programs in this region. PGSP/Stanford tends to have the best reputation overall, and the students from this program are usually considered first for practicum positions throughout that Bay Area over the other programs. They also have some exclusive contracts with certain sites (E.g. Palo Alto VA) where only the students from that program are considered for the open positions. They also are typically viewed to have better case conceptualization skills than students from other programs, and often complete supplemental research and/or clinical practicums at Stanford or PAVA labs, which can help give a leg up on networking and a credible name to add to CVs. However, the class sizes are huge (I.e. around 70-80 students for each entering class in the PhD program and 30-40 for the PsyD program), which likely has a negative impact on the overall training as compared to R1 programs or those with <10 students per year.

Alliant is probably next in line, and there are many practicums that end up with a mix of PGSP and Alliant students who work together. However, I would say the variance of the students from Alliant is much broader in the sense that some students out of that program are excellent, while others are quite poor. I've heard numerous supervisors allude to the fact that when they take a student from Alliant, they feel like they are taking a big risk because they just aren't sure what they are going to get. Alliant also appears to have less support than PGSP/Stanford related to professional development or research pursuits.

There are varying opinions on the Wright Institute, just because they have such a psychodynamic lean, and the West Coast tends to favor more CBT-based approaches. I haven't heard many people say the training at the Wright Institute is subpar, just that you are ending up with very specialized training that is psychodynamically-oriented so often times students from this program aren't even being considered for the same types of practicum/internship positions as students from the other programs. The class sizes also seem to be much smaller than those say of PGSP, therefore they just have a much lesser presence in general throughout the Bay Area.

Argosy probably has the worst reputation of all the professional schools. It seems as though it would be difficult to be in this program due to lack of training opportunities, as many of the practicums available are going to be going for students from virtually all other programs before this one. Furthermore, I have never heard of any Argosy students ending up at any of the top-notch training facilities (E.g. UCSF, PAVA, SF VA etc.), whereas students from PGSP/Stanford and Alliant do end up in those programs. So while I can't speak to the specific level of training, the lack of opportunities alone would make obtaining an internship/postdoc/job seemingly much more difficult.

The only people that I have ever met or heard about from JFK opted for the Master's degree track and are intent on only doing general therapy at community mental health centers or private facilities. I've not heard anything particularly bad about their program, but they just don't seem to have much of a reputation at all.

Over the course of 5 years, I have never once heard of CIIS, so I guess that is telling...

Mind you, these are all just my personal interpretations after living/working/studying in this area for the past few years and hearing what various people have to say about these programs. It is quite possible (and probable) that other individuals would have some different insights. Also, to echo the sentiments of some of the previous posters in this thread, ALL of these programs are professional schools, which obviously come with certain broad-stroke assumptions from those in the field. Basically, every student coming from any of these schools is going to have an uphill battle when it comes to competing for internships/postdocs/jobs against students coming from traditional psychology programs.
 
USF recently started a new PsyD program that I would assume will have decent training at an astronomical cost. Argosy SF obviously does not exist anymore. JFK and CIIS have awful reputations and should be avoided by anyone who wants to have flexibility in their career to do anything other than have a private practice in the most new age corners of the Bay Area, which may or may not be profitable - likely not profitable at all unless you have very rich parents paying for the schooling. CIIS lost accreditation some years back.
 
They also have some exclusive contracts with certain sites (E.g. Palo Alto VA) where only the students from that program are considered for the open positions.

I don't believe that it's an exclusive contract, based on what I know from a couple of colleagues. Students from other programs are also considered for the practicum program. There are practicum students from programs outside of the Bay Area as well.
 
I don't believe that it's an exclusive contract, based on what I know from a couple of colleagues. Students from other programs are also considered for the practicum program. There are practicum students from programs outside of the Bay Area as well.
I don't know that it would be legal for there to be an "exclusive contract" at a federal facility. They would have had to go through some kind of open and transparent process, if not out-and-out open bidding like other government contracts. Maybe it's more of an unspoken agreement between the supervisors and the program's DCT to give students from the program greater preference than competing programs.
 
I don't believe that it's an exclusive contract, based on what I know from a couple of colleagues. Students from other programs are also considered for the practicum program. There are practicum students from programs outside of the Bay Area as well.

I don't know that it would be legal for there to be an "exclusive contract" at a federal facility. They would have had to go through some kind of open and transparent process, if not out-and-out open bidding like other government contracts. Maybe it's more of an unspoken agreement between the supervisors and the program's DCT to give students from the program greater preference than competing programs.

Those are good points. It might just be a more casual agreement, and there may be some units/tracks that are open to others, but there are at least a dozen practicum placements within PAVA that are only filled with PGSP students.
 
Those are good points. It might just be a more casual agreement, and there may be some units/tracks that are open to others, but there are at least a dozen practicum placements within PAVA that are only filled with PGSP students.

I believe that all practicum placement are open to all programs. Certainly PGSP is the largest program in the area, and is also the closest geographically, so it makes sense that they represent a large percentage of practicum students.

For the sake of others who may be reading, I just wanted to clarify that there is no agreement, formal or otherwise, that limits students from other programs from participating in practicum placements there. There is no exclusive arrangement for any one program.
 
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I believe that all practicum placement are open to all programs. Certainly PGSP is the largest program in the area, and is also the closest geographically, so it makes sense that they represent a large percentage of practicum students.

For the sake of others who may be reading, I just wanted to clarify that there is no agreement, formal or otherwise, that limits students from other programs from participating in practicum placements there. There is no exclusive arrangement for any one program.
This is what I thought was happening. It's just natural for practicum sites to take students from the closest quality program(s) in the area. It's just easier on everyone that way.
 
I go to school in the Bay Area, so I feel like I can provide a more personal opinion on the general reputations of the programs in this region. PGSP/Stanford tends to have the best reputation overall, and the students from this program are usually considered first for practicum positions throughout that Bay Area over the other programs. They also have some exclusive contracts with certain sites (E.g. Palo Alto VA) where only the students from that program are considered for the open positions. They also are typically viewed to have better case conceptualization skills than students from other programs, and often complete supplemental research and/or clinical practicums at Stanford or PAVA labs, which can help give a leg up on networking and a credible name to add to CVs. However, the class sizes are huge (I.e. around 70-80 students for each entering class in the PhD program and 30-40 for the PsyD program), which likely has a negative impact on the overall training as compared to R1 programs or those with <10 students per year.

Alliant is probably next in line, and there are many practicums that end up with a mix of PGSP and Alliant students who work together. However, I would say the variance of the students from Alliant is much broader in the sense that some students out of that program are excellent, while others are quite poor. I've heard numerous supervisors allude to the fact that when they take a student from Alliant, they feel like they are taking a big risk because they just aren't sure what they are going to get. Alliant also appears to have less support than PGSP/Stanford related to professional development or research pursuits.

There are varying opinions on the Wright Institute, just because they have such a psychodynamic lean, and the West Coast tends to favor more CBT-based approaches. I haven't heard many people say the training at the Wright Institute is subpar, just that you are ending up with very specialized training that is psychodynamically-oriented so often times students from this program aren't even being considered for the same types of practicum/internship positions as students from the other programs. The class sizes also seem to be much smaller than those say of PGSP, therefore they just have a much lesser presence in general throughout the Bay Area.

Argosy probably has the worst reputation of all the professional schools. It seems as though it would be difficult to be in this program due to lack of training opportunities, as many of the practicums available are going to be going for students from virtually all other programs before this one. Furthermore, I have never heard of any Argosy students ending up at any of the top-notch training facilities (E.g. UCSF, PAVA, SF VA etc.), whereas students from PGSP/Stanford and Alliant do end up in those programs. So while I can't speak to the specific level of training, the lack of opportunities alone would make obtaining an internship/postdoc/job seemingly much more difficult.

The only people that I have ever met or heard about from JFK opted for the Master's degree track and are intent on only doing general therapy at community mental health centers or private facilities. I've not heard anything particularly bad about their program, but they just don't seem to have much of a reputation at all.

Over the course of 5 years, I have never once heard of CIIS, so I guess that is telling...

Mind you, these are all just my personal interpretations after living/working/studying in this area for the past few years and hearing what various people have to say about these programs. It is quite possible (and probable) that other individuals would have some different insights. Also, to echo the sentiments of some of the previous posters in this thread, ALL of these programs are professional schools, which obviously come with certain broad-stroke assumptions from those in the field. Basically, every student coming from any of these schools is going to have an uphill battle when it comes to competing for internships/postdocs/jobs against students coming from traditional psychology programs.

Curious why you'd say west coast favors cbt. Isn't that a national skew? Not saying psych dynamic opportunities outweigh cbt options, and I'd definitely agree the EC has higher gross concentration (not sure about per capita), but compared to the heartland and the south, there are lots of opportunities to be had here. Also the Wright has a pretty balanced program. You have to make it clear what kind of training you want, and even then they encourage breadth.
 
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I believe that all practicum placement are open to all programs. Certainly PGSP is the largest program in the area, and is also the closest geographically, so it makes sense that they represent a large percentage of practicum students.

For the sake of others who may be reading, I just wanted to clarify that there is no agreement, formal or otherwise, that limits students from other programs from participating in practicum placements there. There is no exclusive arrangement for any one program.

PAU/PGSP does have an exclusive contract with PAVA for certain training programs within that VA that participate in BAPIC (Bay Area Practicum Information Collaborative) but not all.
 
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Curious why you'd say west coast favors cbt. Isn't that a national skew? Not saying psych dynamic opportunities outweigh cbt options, and I'd definitely agree the EC has higher gross concentration (not sure about per capita), but compared to the heartland and the south, there are lots of opportunities to be had here. Also the Wright has a pretty balanced program. You have to make it clear what kind of training you want, and even then they encourage breadth.

That's good to hear about the Wright Institute being well-balanced. And I think you are right that there certainly are opportunities for just about any orientation within the Bay Area just because there is such a high saturation of psychologists. My perspective that the West Coast favors CBT comes from a few different places: (1) the strong emphasis of CBT in my own program (2) conversations I have had with research advisors/faculty/supervisors (3) the training experiences of myself and my peers that have been predominantly CBT-oriented (4) looking at the differences in requirement for internships on the West Coast versus the East Coast (For example, many East Coast sites require prior training with the Rorschach, which is an opportunity not widely available in the Bay Area). I actually just thought it was common knowledge that West Coast is more CBT-oriented, while the East Coast is more psychodynamic, but it's always helpful to hear that others, such as yourself, have different perspectives.
 
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I'm not sure its really that the east coast is more psychodynamic so much as NYC (and the surrounding area) being the last remaining stronghold for psychodynamic therapy (to some extent) and psychoanalysis (to a large extent). Which isn't to say that there aren't other places its used or training institutions in other locations, but my perspective is that it exists mostly in isolated pockets elsewhere and NYC is the only area with a "concentration" of practitioners. If you found a bunch of east coast sites that require the Rorschach, you likely were either focusing on NYC or just had bad luck. I don't think I saw a single site outside NYC that even mentioned it.

Outside of NYC, I am not sure I see any clear regional differences anymore. I do think there was slightly faster uptake of 3rd wave therapies in California (likely cultural), that has seemingly balanced out by now. Midwest has always had a slightly heavier slant towards behaviorism for whatever reason. These are incredibly subtle distinctions though.
 
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I'm not sure its really that the east coast is more psychodynamic so much as NYC (and the surrounding area) being the last remaining stronghold for psychodynamic therapy (to some extent) and psychoanalysis (to a large extent). Which isn't to say that there aren't other places its used or training institutions in other locations, but my perspective is that it exists mostly in isolated pockets elsewhere and NYC is the only area with a "concentration" of practitioners. If you found a bunch of east coast sites that require the Rorschach, you likely were either focusing on NYC or just had bad luck. I don't think I saw a single site outside NYC that even mentioned it.

Outside of NYC, I am not sure I see any clear regional differences anymore. I do think there was slightly faster uptake of 3rd wave therapies in California (likely cultural), that has seemingly balanced out by now. Midwest has always had a slightly heavier slant towards behaviorism for whatever reason. These are incredibly subtle distinctions though.

I strongly disagree, and having lived in the NE my entire adult life I feel this is broadly incorrect. Philly has a very strong dynamic/analytic scene, Baltimore has some of the hubs of dynamic and analytic work, I think the NE is general is commonly more dynamic both within and outside of NYC. I wanted to do my postdoc at Sheppard Pratt in their dynamic PTSD program but I let myself be convinced that an overt dynamic training would end my career. But anyway lots of dynamic programs in the NE/mid atlantic
 
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I strongly disagree, and having lived in the NE my entire adult life I feel this is broadly incorrect. Philly has a very strong dynamic/analytic scene, Baltimore has some of the hubs of dynamic and analytic work, I think the NE is general is commonly more dynamic both within and outside of NYC. I wanted to do my postdoc at Sheppard Pratt in their dynamic PTSD program but I let myself be convinced that an overt dynamic training would end my career. But anyway lots of dynamic programs in the NE/mid atlantic
Don't forget Chicago. Big Midwest strong hold both dynaimc and analytic.
Here is a list of all the APsaA approved training sites
Approved Training Institutes | APsaA

You can see that NY is over-represented but decent coverage in much of the country.
 
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Don't forget Chicago. Big Midwest strong hold both dynaimc and analytic.
Here is a list of all the APsaA approved training sites
Approved Training Institutes | APsaA

You can see that NY is over-represented but decent coverage in much of the country.
I am familiar with Chicago's strong dynamic/analytic history but felt it didn't really support or detract from whether or not the NE outside of NYC has a dynamic presence so I left it out. Chicago is good as well for sure for that. There are some isolated dynamic pockets in Tx as well.
 
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I strongly disagree, and having lived in the NE my entire adult life I feel this is broadly incorrect. Philly has a very strong dynamic/analytic scene, Baltimore has some of the hubs of dynamic and analytic work, I think the NE is general is commonly more dynamic both within and outside of NYC. I wanted to do my postdoc at Sheppard Pratt in their dynamic PTSD program but I let myself be convinced that an overt dynamic training would end my career. But anyway lots of dynamic programs in the NE/mid atlantic

Can't say I have lived in Philly, but the folks I know who have come through there would beg to disagree. I certainly wasn't intending to argue there isn't any dynamic work there (most major cities have it), just that it isn't normative the way it is in NYC. One can certainly exist in Philly with very limited exposure to it, which I'm not certain is true in NYC. I've always thought of Philadelphia asstrong for psychotherapy training <in general>, so its likely counterbalanced by the presence of other strongholds there (e.g. Beck Institute). Philly, Boston, Chicago, etc. were all the "pockets" I had in mind.

Either way, my point is that I don't think the regional differences are terribly robust at a coastal level.
 
PAU/PGSP does have an exclusive contract with PAVA for certain training programs within that VA that participate in BAPIC (Bay Area Practicum Information Collaborative) but not all.

Do you have a source for that info? That runs counter to what I know from colleagues at that VA, which is that no aspect of psychology training is exclusively available to any one program.

I would be surprised if a hospital funded by federal government could enter into an exclusive training contract with any university, let alone a private university.
 
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Do you have a source for that info? That runs counter to what I know from colleagues at that VA, which is that no aspect of psychology training is exclusively available to any one program.

I would be surprised if a hospital funded by federal government could enter into an exclusive training contract with any university, let alone a private university.

I would also be curious to see any documentation or be pointed to a source for this. I have not heard of such a thing.
 
Do you have a source for that info? That runs counter to what I know from colleagues at that VA, which is that no aspect of psychology training is exclusively available to any one program.

I would be surprised if a hospital funded by federal government could enter into an exclusive training contract with any university, let alone a private university.

It may not be a contract, but an MOU with specific training programs. If certain paperwork is not on the books, we could not accept prac students from certain places. It wasn't hard to get the paperwork in, just time consuming.
 
Do you have a source for that info? That runs counter to what I know from colleagues at that VA, which is that no aspect of psychology training is exclusively available to any one program.

I would be surprised if a hospital funded by federal government could enter into an exclusive training contract with any university, let alone a private university.

I would also be curious to see any documentation or be pointed to a source for this. I have not heard of such a thing.

These are screenshots from the Bay Area Practicum Information Collaborative (BAPIC) Directory with the listing for one of the PAVA practicum rotations (It says the same thing for all the other PAVA rotations as well).

You can see that the only associated agency practicums are PGSP/Stanford. And then further down in the listing under "Required Materials" they state specifically that they only take students from PAU or the Stanford Consortium.

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I've always thought of Philadelphia asstrong for psychotherapy training <in general>, so its likely counterbalanced by the presence of other strongholds there (e.g. Beck Institute). Philly, Boston, Chicago, etc. were all the "pockets" I had in mind.

Just to speak up for Boston, the non-PsyD programs here seem to largely lean CBT/behavioral.
 
The field of psychology is changing. It's neither good or bad, it just is. More prevalent is the Psy.D. degree and, more than ever, we're called upon to apply principles of behavioral science to folks least in a position to want to hear them. Read up on the great clinicians of the 20th century, especially folks like Beck, Barlow, Jacob Cohen, Paul Meehl or Richard McNally. Read those books at night and try earnestly to apply those principles to help your clients during the day. And ask for feedback. Is this helping? Is this working? What are your goals? How can I help you reach them? Do that and I think you'll do fine. I forgot Marsha Linehan...she is a genius. And who could forget Stephen C. Hayes and the new book, Process Based Cognitive Therapy?
 
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Fundamentally, I think that a career in psychology means living your contract out with goodness as best you can.
 
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