Arguments with spouse about residency locale?

[oldbearprofessor]

The overwhelming majority of spouses (including non-married ones regardless of orientation) want their partners career to be successful because they love them and want them to be happy. They are even willing to give up a lot for that career success. In exchange they ask for consideration, communication and a shared vision of the long-term future. Those unwilling to do that are correct in that getting married (or any form of permanent committed relationship) is not optimal. Some people who make great partners are also those who are somewhat "homebodies" who would be lonely/sad far from home. This is part of the equation and everyone has to assess this for themselves.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[LostinLift]

I don't have a 1950's view of marriage. I have a realistic one that's backed by data which says that 50% of marriage ends in divorce and up to 60% of married men cheat. But go ahead and pretend that you're in a Disney movie and pretend that you're gonna live happily ever after. Odds are more likely you're going to end up divorced or cheated on. Or both.

So would you say that you wouldn't apply again to medical school today because less than 50% of students get accepted?

 

[DarknightX]

I'm shocked women aren't throwing themselves at you.

That's because you haven't met me in person, sweetheart.

 

[DarknightX]

So would you say that you wouldn't apply again to medical school today because less than 50% of students get accepted?

Nice try. Except I don't have to pay anything besides app fees if I don't get in.

I definitely wouldn't apply if I had to give up half my income for 18+ years if it didn't work out.

 

[DermViser]

That's because you haven't met me in person, sweetheart.

I'm a guy, but thanks. Hopefully you're not this insufferable when you're looking for some *****. Your female medical school classmates must have loved you.

 

[PL198]

Nice try. Except I don't have to pay anything besides app fees if I don't get in.

I definitely wouldn't apply if I had to give up half my income for 18+ years if it didn't work out.

more than that after you're paying for a kid you're not even allowed to see because you work a lot of hours.

 

[deleted480308]

more than that after you're paying for a kid you're not even allowed to see because you work a lot of hours.

except that no custody agreement denies child access over work hours...

 

[eefen]

No dog in this fight. Just wanted to pop in and say that since divorce statistics are being tossed around, it would probably behoove all parties to be sure they are being used correctly.

Here is a decent summary of current research. To briefly sum it up, the overall divorce rate peaked at around 40% in the 1980s, but has been declining since then. The 50/50 stat isn't necessarily blatantly false, but fails to take into account the distribution of the data. It's currently probaby closer to 30% for first-time marriages. For college-educated women with an independent income who marry after 25, the rate is more like 20%. Unfortunately, those who married younger, are poorer, and/or are black/Hispanic tend to have worse outcomes.

Anyway, just wanted to point out that the likelihood of divorce is not quite equal to the flip of a coin. Instead, it seems that about 70% of first time marriages make it, and that number probably increases when you factor in educational and income demographics pertinant to our population (e.g. medical students/residents/attendings, etc.).

Carry on.

 

[jw3600]

When you talk about being reasonable, does that mean with regards to assets obtained after the marriage, in the event of a divorce? Just checking as not sure we're on same page.

Yes. JJ Watt (Houston Texans player) just signed his $100M deal. If he gets married tomorrow I don't think its reasonable that she is entitled to half of that haul if they get divorced when the contract is over. I'm sure many feel similar. They could draft a document making sure her (and possible children) are taken care of without being handed $30M. So yes, even with regards to assets being obtained after marriage, I believe you can have reasonable prenuptial conditions.

 

[BobbyB]

No dog in this fight. Just wanted to pop in and say that since divorce statistics are being tossed around, it would probably behoove all parties to be sure they are being used correctly.

Here is a decent summary of current research. To briefly sum it up, the overall divorce rate peaked at around 40% in the 1980s, but has been declining since then. The 50/50 stat isn't necessarily blatantly false, but fails to take into account the distribution of the data. It's currently probaby closer to 30% for first-time marriages. For college-educated women with an independent income who marry after 25, the rate is more like 20%. Unfortunately, those who married younger, are poorer, and/or are black/Hispanic tend to have worse outcomes.

Anyway, just wanted to point out that the likelihood of divorce is not quite equal to the flip of a coin. Instead, it seems that about 70% of first time marriages make it, and that number probably increases when you factor in educational and income demographics pertinant to our population (e.g. medical students/residents/attendings, etc.).

Carry on.

the sad part is that just being together is considered success

it doesn't take into account all the unhappy marriages out there

 

[mimelim]

Disagree, bro.

When it comes to one's training, they should do whatever they wish and whatever is best for their career. A spouse who has no idea what they're talking about and is simply looking for their own convenience is flat out selfish. It's not like OP wants to go drink with the guys or plan a trip to Vegas. He wants to get the best training possible in order to have a good career and provide for his family. If he can't make his wife understand that, then he is beta and whipped, and I put the blame on him, not her.

Get into medical school first, and then lecture me on spousal opinions about choosing a residency program.

Pretty much, not unlike most surgical residents.

You're very qualified, sir/ma'am (Unless you're an ER attending, then I take it back).

I respectfully disagree. When it comes to career decisions like residency, you have to take the best training available, especially when it comes to surgical training. This is not something that cannot be compromised. OP needs to make his rank list based on where he believes he'll get the best training. Doesn't mean it's the highest ranked academic institution. It means where he'll learn the best and fit in the best. I understand that there's a spectrum, but I just fail to see why he needs to make any sacrifice here. Especially when his wife will be the one cashing the checks once he's done with residency).

I used to think this way. Then I met my wife. 10 years later, I can say without a doubt the best decision I ever made was marrying her. My wife and I aren't having kids and if we were to, we will likely adopt way down the road. She is about as far from a homemaker as you can get (ADA, works about my intern's hours right now). My rank list was heavily influenced by her opinions on different cities. Her job prospects were the biggest thing, but there is no question that warmer weather and a larger city were preferred, 'just because'. From a purely 'objective' training perspective, an argument could be made that I should have ranked the Hopkins/MGH/B&W higher than where I ended up (where I ranked first), but it would have been absolutely ridiculous to do so. This entirely depends on the individual and the relationship and to consider someone weaker or 'beta' because they have different priorities is just silly. I am not in any way shape or form arguing that you should be sacrificing all of your training on a whim for someone else. But to say, "zero sacrifice" is just ludicrous.

Some people were raised differently than you. They value different things than you. People do better, especially in surgery, when they have a good support structure. I've seen probably half a dozen meltdowns/mini-meltdowns in our various surgery programs in large part because of out of hospital stress (I swear we aren't that malignant).

 

[jdh71]

What the hell did you animals do in here?!

This is why we cannot have nice things.

 

[PL198]

the sad part is that just being together is considered success

it doesn't take into account all the unhappy marriages out there

that's what hilarious. It's funny how I only know a single married couple that is having the time of their lives. hm wonder why

 

[mimelim]

that's what hilarious. It's funny how I don't know a single married couple that is having the time of their lives. hm wonder why?

I am. So from now on please state, "I only know one married couple that is having the time of their lives."

 

[PL198]

I am. So from now on please state, "I only know one married couple that is having the time of their lives."

duly noted and reparations were made

 

[DarknightX]

What the hell did you animals do in here?!

This is why we cannot have nice things.

Just having some fun

 

[loris]

If I got married and then divorced, would my divorced wife be responsible for half my student loans?

I actually know someone who had this happen. She had worked incredibly hard to ensure that she didn’t have any personal student loan debt that needed to be paid off, but then she married someone who she had met during grad school and ended up with half of her husband’s student loan debt when they got divorced.

 

[Cytarabine]

What a waste of time catching up on this thread was

 

[eefen]

the sad part is that just being together is considered success

it doesn't take into account all the unhappy marriages out there

That's a fair point, and an important consideration. And a lot goes into that, to be sure.

One of our "physician wellness" lectures last year touched on this. Interestingly - and somewhat pertinent to this discussion - one of the stats presented (I believe it was from Wedding's "Behavior and Medicine") said that 40% of residents reported a problem with their spouse, and 72% of those residents blamed the residency. Obviously that doesn't tell us anything about the severity of the problems or even necessarily whether those marriages trended towards divorce in the end, but it's interesting nonetheless.

Also, psychiatrists, at least in 1997, had a divorce rate of 50%. Surgeons were at 33%. Go figure. If you were in peds, IM, or path, the rate was 23%. Physician couples had divorce rate of about 11%.

 

[Lawgiver]

Jesus what's with all this "whipped" and "beta" talk? OP is asking a totally reasonable question. I am honestly flummoxed that he's getting blowback here.

You better believe I'm going to consider my wife and kid's wants/needs heavily when making my rank list. Probably at the expense of going to the most ideal place for me, career-wise. That doesn't make me whipped it makes me a grown up.

Because it seems there's a minority of vocal wife's-place-is-more-or-less-less-in-the-kitchen type of folks here. If you look at all the topics with a social angle it's the same 5 or so saying the same thing without fail.

 

[PL198]

Because it seems there's a minority of vocal wife's-place-is-more-or-less-less-in-the-kitchen type of folks here. If you look at all the topics with a social angle it's the same 5 or so saying the same thing without fail.

yeah if she does anything besides make sandwiches in the kitchen, I scream and make sure she never thinks about such a monstrosity ever again

 

[BobbyB]

That's a fair point, and an important consideration. And a lot goes into that, to be sure.

One of our "physician wellness" lectures last year touched on this. Interestingly - and somewhat pertinent to this discussion - one of the stats presented (I believe it was from Wedding's "Behavior and Medicine") said that 40% of residents reported a problem with their spouse, and 72% of those residents blamed the residency. Obviously that doesn't tell us anything about the severity of the problems or even necessarily whether those marriages trended towards divorce in the end, but it's interesting nonetheless.

Also, psychiatrists, at least in 1997, had a divorce rate of 50%. Surgeons were at 33%. Go figure. If you were in peds, IM, or path, the rate was 23%. Physician couples had divorce rate of about 11%.

how do they compare to present day divorce stats?

 

[eefen]

how do they compare to present day divorce stats?

The divorce rates of the various specialties from 1997? I don't know - a quick Google search didn't really turn up any more current data, although here's a summary of the original research that produced those 1997 numbers. There's probably a medscape report out there somewhere with more current data. Sermo (a physician-only forum) did recently poll >2600 members last month and found an overall divorce rate of 22%. Some of the top specialties were as follows:

• 32% for Emergency Medicine/Critical Care,
• 29% for Psychiatrists and OBGYNs
• 27% for Family Practice
• 26% for Surgeons

Source is here. Obviously only an informal survey, but still informative. Psychiatrists seem to have figured out a thing or two in the past decade and a half, at least among Sermo members.

 

[Lawgiver]

Darn ignore button is not working or I could have never used it completely.

 

[operaman]

I am. So from now on please state, "I only know one married couple that is having the time of their lives."

Make that two.

I had a pretty awesome single life for a loooong time, but nothing compares to how great life is now.

 

[Geekchick921]

The overwhelming majority of spouses (including non-married ones regardless of orientation) want their partners career to be successful because they love them and want them to be happy. They are even willing to give up a lot for that career success. In exchange they ask for consideration, communication and a shared vision of the long-term future. Those unwilling to do that are correct in that getting married (or any form of permanent committed relationship) is not optimal. Some people who make great partners are also those who are somewhat "homebodies" who would be lonely/sad far from home. This is part of the equation and everyone has to assess this for themselves.

Listen, OBP, logic and reason and experience is not welcome here. The last few pages have made that quite clear.

Seriously, thank God someone else with experience is chiming in. I have no idea what the hell I read in the last couple pages.

OP said on the first page or two that the appeal of staying close to her family is that they want to have children during his residency and they would be able to help his wife. That is FAR from unreasonable. If you think it is, you must not be a parent, especially one that's produced a kid or two during your medical education. I would be much less willing to leave the area if my mom was retired or otherwlse able to help my husband with our kids on a daily basis.

 

[Kahreek]

because they have different priorities is just silly. I am not in any way shape or form arguing that you should be sacrificing all of your training on a whim for someone else. But to say, "zero sacrifice" is just ludicrous.

Some people were raised differently than you. They value different things than you. People do better, especially in surgery, when they have a good support structure. I've seen probably half a dozen meltdowns/mini-meltdowns in our various surgery programs in large part because of out of hospital stress (I swear we aren't that malignant).

you monster have some pity

 

[Kahreek]

I would throw some advice on these grounds, but I will not for secret is the soul of success.

 

[tiedyeddog]

That's the thing though, you're just sitting here painting false flags to attack. The world isn't a) I want to get married and love her for the rest of my life and reproduce like bunnies or b) I just want to get with every piece that walks by me.
(Not going to call it strawman b/c thats how every douche on the internet just refutes each others points)
All you can see is nails, because you only have a hammer.

FINALLY, can respond to this guy who has been on my ass this entire thread. Just got off a 36 hour call at my sub-I and now I am on my laptop.

Listen guy, someone higher above this thread said "Why on earth would someone ever get married? It is not smart, there are women to bang out there". I said "I want to get married because I believe that is the best way to raise children". You then accused me of making a strawman argument with children, even though you then went on to say you're not calling it a strawman.

I am making a valid point about why I believe marriage has its place. You are just riding my ass and making up some nonsense about me being sexually frustrated because you have yet to grasp reading comprehension. We are obviously are at different stations in life. Are you an MS1? You mature a lot in the 4 years between MS1 and 4. Don't worry, it will happen to you as well.

 

[tiedyeddog]

I think what he is saying is that finding someone (male or female) who would be willing to sign a financially motivated, legally binding contract (which might require notarization, by the way, since I'm dubious on the legal standing of any such contract) before moving in with another person is extraordinarily unlikely. The very act of proffering such a contract as a condition for cohabitation is an enormous red flag to most who would be romantically interested in you.

EXACTLY my point! I don't understand how this is so hard to understand? I guess if you've never been in a serious relationship and had to think about someone other than yourself it might be.

 

[tiedyeddog]

1) It's not misogynist to infer that. Statistically, he'd be correct.
2) I've asked OP multiple times about the wife's employment and he's never mentioned it, thus I'm assuming it's stay at home because of his apprehension at mentioning it, because it would weaken the say she has in the matter.

Bro, she is a teacher. She makes more than the negative cash flow I currently make as a medical student.

Her say in what we do is not dependent on how much money she brings home. She gets a say because we're in a relationship and I owe that to her. She isn't my puppet, even if I was ****ing bill gates she would have a say. Seriously, have you ever been in a committed relationship? If the answer is no then maybe you should bite your tongue and go comment in a thread you know something about.

 

[operaman]

FINALLY, can respond to this guy who has been on my ass this entire thread. Just got off a 36 hour call at my sub-I and now I am on my laptop.

Listen guy, someone higher above this thread said "Why on earth would someone ever get married? It is not smart, there are women to bang out there". I said "I want to get married because I believe that is the best way to raise children". You then accused me of making a strawman argument with children, even though you then went on to say you're not calling it a strawman.

I am making a valid point about why I believe marriage has its place. You are just riding my ass and making up some nonsense about me being sexually frustrated because you have yet to grasp reading comprehension. We are obviously are at different stations in life. Are you an MS1? You mature a lot in the 4 years between MS1 and 4. Don't worry, it will happen to you as well.

1) Pretty sure PL198 is in an accelerated BS/MD program and that he's ~20 +/- 1 years old, or about the age of your typical college sophomore. I think that speaks for itself.

2) Every time he or one of the other young'uns pontificates about relationships, all I can hear is my grandfather's voice in my head saying (edited for vulgarity), "Son, I've forgotten more tail than you'll ever get." It's crass, but it says a lot about how perspective and priority evolves throughout life.

 

[graviton]

FINALLY, can respond to this guy who has been on my ass this entire thread. Just got off a 36 hour call at my sub-I and now I am on my laptop.

Been up for 36 hours - time to argue on the internet.

 

[tiedyeddog]

Been up for 36 hours - time to argue on the internet.

something has to motivate you to stay awake

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Been up for 36 hours - time to argue on the internet.

 

[DermViser]

that's what hilarious. It's funny how I only know a single married couple that is having the time of their lives. hm wonder why

Dude, YOU ARE 21!!!!! of course you only know like 1 single married couple - you're a college junior.

 

[DermViser]

I actually know someone who had this happen. She had worked incredibly hard to ensure that she didn’t have any personal student loan debt that needed to be paid off, but then she married someone who she had met during grad school and ended up with half of her husband’s student loan debt when they got divorced.

How is that possible?

 

[DermViser]

FINALLY, can respond to this guy who has been on my ass this entire thread. Just got off a 36 hour call at my sub-I and now I am on my laptop.

Listen guy, someone higher above this thread said "Why on earth would someone ever get married? It is not smart, there are women to bang out there". I said "I want to get married because I believe that is the best way to raise children". You then accused me of making a strawman argument with children, even though you then went on to say you're not calling it a strawman.

I am making a valid point about why I believe marriage has its place. You are just riding my ass and making up some nonsense about me being sexually frustrated because you have yet to grasp reading comprehension. We are obviously are at different stations in life. Are you an MS1? You mature a lot in the 4 years between MS1 and 4. Don't worry, it will happen to you as well.

No he's not an MS-1. He's a 21 year old MS-2.

 

[Dylasa]

Yes, that's the answer, if the question were "how to sign, seal, and deliver your divorce..."

Well, I've been married for 20 years, so I'm not exactly sucking at this whole "staying married" thing. And while I agree that it's not the idea solution, neither is telling your spouse that they can't train where they want to because you want to be closer to your parents (lolwtf). I mean, yes, probably the reason I'm still married is because my husband is awesome, adventurous and a genuine partner to me. If he said something like that to me (or vice versa), we'd just do what we wanted to, and if the other person doesn't come along, then they should go their own way. When we're at odds, we negotiate.

And yes, we have kids.

 

[PL198]

Yes, that's the answer, if the question were "how to sign, seal, and deliver your divorce..."



Get back to us when you're 55, driving your sports car with the top up so you don't lose your toupee, and still trolling bars with the opening line "I'm a doctor!" hoping someone will give you her number.



Automatic full custody to the mom no longer exists. As for everything else, I find it hilarious that the two anti-marriage guys are so vehemently anti-marriage for fear of getting screwed in a divorce. Because we all know that the only women worth marrying are the gold diggers who bring nothing to the marriage except an attorney during the divorce. Perhaps you want to set your sights a bit higher and maybe even, shocker, marry someone equally as successful in her career as you hope to be in yours. Of course, you better pray she'll give you the time of day and won't be as worried about you being the narcissistic gold digger hoping to bleed her dry when she's sick of you.



It's shocking that you're not married.



Oh please. The entitlement is sickening. What exactly has he given up? Nights at the club? Partying? Big freaking deal.

It doesn't matter if she makes more than me or less than me, in any legal proceeding, she is favored immensely. Men don't have the oppourtunity to be male gold diggers comparable to women. Have you seen what the settlements are like when women are the primary earners in a divorce? It's nothing similar to the typical set up with the male being the higher earner.

 

[DermViser]

It doesn't matter if she makes more than me or less than me, in any legal proceeding, she is favored immensely. Men don't have the oppourtunity to be male gold diggers comparable to women. Have you seen what the settlements are like when women are the primary earners in a divorce? It's nothing similar to the typical set up with the male being the higher earner.

Men also usually do not put aside their career aspirations and stay at home 100% to take care of the kids. Women do it MUCH more often, even now.

 

[PL198]

Men also usually do not put aside their career aspirations and stay at home 100% to take care of the kids. Women do it MUCH more often, even now.

I agree but I don't see how that relates to this discussion. Apples to apples, when the male is the primary provider, the settlement for the other spouse is extremely different on average in terms of relative compensation than when the female is the primary provider. If there's no inequality, this difference shouldn't exist.

 

[DermViser]

I agree but I don't see how that relates to this discussion. Apples to apples, when the male is the primary provider, the settlement for the other spouse is extremely different on average in terms of relative compensation than when the female is the primary provider. If there's no inequality, this difference shouldn't exist.

There's also an "inequality" with respect to custody. Mother always wins out over Fathers, unless she's a murderer, drug abuser, etc. where child's life would be in danger. What's your point?

 

[Freddie Mercury]

She isn't my puppet, even if I was ******* bill gates she would have a say.

It's fun to read the censorship in this sentence both as an adjective (which is what I'm assuming you intended) and also as a verb.

 

[PL198]

There's also an "inequality" with respect to custody. Mother always wins out over Fathers, unless she's a murderer, drug abuser, etc. where child's life would be in danger. What's your point?

I mean you're admitting there's inequality.

 

[tiedyeddog]

It's fun to read the censorship in this sentence both as an adjective (which is what I'm assuming you intended) and also as a verb.

Either way illustrates my point, I guess.

 

[DermViser]

I mean you're admitting there's inequality.

Yes, mothers spend 9 months carrying their child and finally deliver them after hours upon hours from their bajingo. You're darn right there is inequality when it comes to custody.

 

[Cytarabine]

21 years old, posts like a 17 year old

 

[DermViser]

That's a fair point, and an important consideration. And a lot goes into that, to be sure.

One of our "physician wellness" lectures last year touched on this. Interestingly - and somewhat pertinent to this discussion - one of the stats presented (I believe it was from Wedding's "Behavior and Medicine") said that 40% of residents reported a problem with their spouse, and 72% of those residents blamed the residency. Obviously that doesn't tell us anything about the severity of the problems or even necessarily whether those marriages trended towards divorce in the end, but it's interesting nonetheless.

Also, psychiatrists, at least in 1997, had a divorce rate of 50%. Surgeons were at 33%. Go figure. If you were in peds, IM, or path, the rate was 23%. Physician couples had divorce rate of about 11%.

1997, LOL.

 

[loris]

How is that possible?

I honestly don’t know the specific details (we discussed it once during a road trip a few years ago). The marriage was between a US citizen and a foreign national, so the divorce may have been filed abroad.