[Article] “AMA officially recognizes COMLEX equality with USMLE”.

[jw3600]

I personally like OMM, will I make it a major part of my practice in the future? No, but I'd like to incorporate it some. I like the anatomy and physiology behind it. If you don't believe it or like it, why did you lie on your personal statements to DO schools? Lol, just go to an MD school. Badda bing badda boom. Oh, couldn't get in? Learn OMM or go the Carribean, Canada, or Europe. Badda bing badda boom.

That's great. It's also meaningless. You can feel the same way about essential oils and naturopathy. That doesn't change the fact they are all bull****. And yeah I couldn't get into an MD school. So I went to a DO school. Same as 99.9% of the other DOs. The rest of them are lying or incredibly ignorant.

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[jw3600]

That would be good but that also means AOA/COCA loses a lot of money and power.

And that's why for decades after acknowledging that osteopathic medicine is nonsense, DO schools still exists. Money.

 

[Goro]

And that's why for decades after acknowledging that osteopathic medicine is nonsense, DO schools still exists. Money.

Them training you to be a doctor is pointless, right?

 

[alprazoslam]

Glad I went to an omm light school. But now they have pretty omm heavy faculty so one of the few benefits of my school is gone glad it happed after second year

 

[DrStephenStrange]

I get that a lot of you despise OMM, and I get that a lot of it don't actually have any basis or proof, but I think a lot of it actually work though. And it has actually helped many people before. Unless all those people just keep experiencing huge placebo effects which I doubt. Even MDs are learning OMM nowadays, physical therapists use many of these techniques and MDs refer their patients to physical therapy all the time. Why do we DOs just keep trashing it all the time instead of trying to do some research to prove or disprove some of those techniques. It would actually help the field more because we could probably discard some of it and probably implement new better techniques. Instead we just keep complaining all the time, saying how we have no interest in it, and how we wish it didn't exist. The reality is without osteopathic medicine a lot us wouldn't have had the chance to be DOctors, and what do we do to improve it or make it better, NOTHING. That's just sad really.

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[Espressso]

I get that a lot of you despise OMM, and I get that a lot of it don't actually have any basis or proof, but I think a lot of it actually work though. And it has actually helped many people before. Unless all those people just keep experiencing huge placebo effects which I doubt. Even MDs are learning OMM nowadays, physical therapists use many of these techniques and MDs refer their patients to physical therapy all the time. Why do we DOs just keep trashing it all the time instead of trying to do some research to prove or disprove some of those techniques. It would actually help the field more because we could probably discard some of it and probably implement new better techniques. Instead we just keep complaining all the time, saying how we have no interest in it, and how we wish it didn't exist. The reality is without osteopathic medicine a lot us wouldn't have had the chance to be DOctors, and what do we do to improve it or make it better, NOTHING. That's just sad really.

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I've actually thought of trying to do OMM research simply to disprove some of it. But I was stuck on how to approach an OMM professor about backing the research proposal...
I do think some of the techniques work and are legit (muscle energy is one of them, along with some hvla). I think it loses a lot of credibility when you add in cranial techniques and Chapman points.

 

[libertyyne]

I get that a lot of you despise OMM, and I get that a lot of it don't actually have any basis or proof, but I think a lot of it actually work though. And it has actually helped many people before. Unless all those people just keep experiencing huge placebo effects which I doubt. Even MDs are learning OMM nowadays, physical therapists use many of these techniques and MDs refer their patients to physical therapy all the time. Why do we DOs just keep trashing it all the time instead of trying to do some research to prove or disprove some of those techniques. It would actually help the field more because we could probably discard some of it and probably implement new better techniques. Instead we just keep complaining all the time, saying how we have no interest in it, and how we wish it didn't exist. The reality is without osteopathic medicine a lot us wouldn't have had the chance to be DOctors, and what do we do to improve it or make it better, NOTHING. That's just sad really.

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the argument for efficacy you are making is literally the argument homeopaths, naturopaths , and reiki masters make.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

the argument for efficacy you are making is literally the argument homeopaths, naturopaths , and reiki masters make.

Most of anything we do in medicine today were also once considered pseudoscience. Why can't we better OMM with research as well?

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[libertyyne]

Most of anything we do in medicine today were also once considered pseudoscience. Why can't we better OMM with research as well?

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umm, no most of everything we do today was not also considered pseudoscience. Penicillin was not dreamed up whole cloth. You can research omm all you would like if it prooves to be efficacious it is efficacious, if not, its not like the AOA will stop teaching it.

 

[jw3600]

Jesus Christ. A first year DO student just said OMM actually works and most other actual medicine is psuedoscience. I’m done with this thread.

 

[jw3600]

Them training you to be a doctor is pointless, right?

Ehh me studying on my own, not going to class, taking the boards they recommended I don’t take, then learning from physicians on rotations not associated with my school? How much credit do they really want for that? Whatever it’s worth certainly wasn’t 250k lol.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

I get that a lot of you despise OMM, and I get that a lot of it don't actually have any basis or proof, but I think a lot of it actually work though. And it has actually helped many people before. Unless all those people just keep experiencing huge placebo effects which I doubt. Even MDs are learning OMM nowadays, physical therapists use many of these techniques and MDs refer their patients to physical therapy all the time. Why do we DOs just keep trashing it all the time instead of trying to do some research to prove or disprove some of those techniques. It would actually help the field more because we could probably discard some of it and probably implement new better techniques. Instead we just keep complaining all the time, saying how we have no interest in it, and how we wish it didn't exist. The reality is without osteopathic medicine a lot us wouldn't have had the chance to be DOctors, and what do we do to improve it or make it better, NOTHING. That's just sad really.

Sent from my SM-G950U using SDN mobile

Thats not the stuff we hate. You haven't been sufficiently exposed yet. No technique is ever discarded after being made-up ... err 'discovered!' Find me an example outside of Larry Nassar in which any technique was ever abandoned.

 

[Ho0v-man]

I get that a lot of you despise OMM, and I get that a lot of it don't actually have any basis or proof, but I think a lot of it actually work though. And it has actually helped many people before. Unless all those people just keep experiencing huge placebo effects which I doubt. Even MDs are learning OMM nowadays, physical therapists use many of these techniques and MDs refer their patients to physical therapy all the time. Why do we DOs just keep trashing it all the time instead of trying to do some research to prove or disprove some of those techniques. It would actually help the field more because we could probably discard some of it and probably implement new better techniques. Instead we just keep complaining all the time, saying how we have no interest in it, and how we wish it didn't exist. The reality is without osteopathic medicine a lot us wouldn't have had the chance to be DOctors, and what do we do to improve it or make it better, NOTHING. That's just sad really.

Sent from my SM-G950U using SDN mobile

Ah, I remember first semester. When the OMM you learned was kind of in line with some stuff from physical therapy and you could immediately see/feel results, even if they were just minor. Good times.

It gradually devolves. Honestly, the OMM that has real merit could just be taught all at once over one semester alongside a regular medschool curriculum. But its not. It’s dragged out and eventually you realize its been a whole semester and you’ve learned like 5 stretches that work and spent the rest of the time memorizing patterns of motion that just don’t exist in any reality. Do you really think we all came in super close-minded? I really tried at it but theres so much nonsense to sift through just to get to that little bit that’s actually worth anything that I just wrote off the whole practice of OMM.

The people who do devote themselves to doing this stuff, like the NMM folks, really are beasts at biomechanics and can do the stuff that does work really well. But getting good at it takes a tremendous amount of time and the benefits are marginal at best.

 

[Neopolymath]

In a similar vein, why do people say aren't you greatful because it allowed you to become a doctor?

If OMM didn't exist suddenly, we would still have and need (some) of the DO schools we have now but they would just be bad MD schools that don't teach OMM. So to answer the question in actuality, putting up with OMM has not logically been something that "allowed" me to become a doctor because these schools would exist in some fashion regardless.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Jesus Christ. A first year DO student just said OMM actually works and most other actual medicine is psuedoscience. I’m done with this thread.

Read what I said again. How was that CARS score? I said most of medicine used to be (not present tense) pseudoscience until they were proven to be effective as well. And yes some parts of OMM actually works. And some of it is BS and I admit that.

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[DrStephenStrange]

Ah, I remember first semester. When the OMM you learned was kind of in line with some stuff from physical therapy and you could immediately see/feel results, even if they were just minor. Good times.

It gradually devolves. Honestly, the OMM that has real merit could just be taught all at once over one semester alongside a regular medschool curriculum. But its not. It’s dragged out and eventually you realize its been a whole semester and you’ve learned like 5 stretches that work and spent the rest of the time memorizing patterns of motion that just don’t exist in any reality. Do you really think we all came in super close-minded? I really tried at it but theres so much nonsense to sift through just to get to that little bit that’s actually worth anything that I just wrote off the whole practice of OMM.

The people who do devote themselves to doing this stuff, like the NMM folks, really are beasts at biomechanics and can do the stuff that does work really well. But getting good at it takes a tremendous amount of time and the benefits are marginal at best.

Maybe some day, a couple more semesters down the line, I'll come back here and realize how completely naive I was. But until then, I think we could be doing much more to make OMM look better instead of always complaining and trashing it.

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[jw3600]

Read what I said again. How was that CARS score? I said most of medicine used to be (not present tense) pseudoscience until they were proven to be effective as well. And yes some parts of OMM actually works. And some of it is BS and I admit that.

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First of all I took the MCAT years ago before the changes so I didn’t take the “CARS” section. Secondly what a stupid insult. And I got a 13 on verbal reasoning. Which was 99th percentile but thanks for checking friendo.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Maybe some day, a couple more semesters down the line, I'll come back here and realize how completely naive I was. But until then, I think we could be doing much more to make OMM look better instead of always complaining and trashing it.

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You should do a OMM fellowship year, you know, for the good of DOs

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

But until then, I think we could be doing much more to make OMM look better instead of always complaining and trashing it.

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Well that's easy, produce quality research showing its benefits.

 

[ButterButter]

Well that's easy, produce quality research showing its benefits.

It's not like these techniques have been around for 100 years or anything

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I think we could be doing much more to make OMM look better instead of always complaining and trashing it.

The way to make it better is to get rid of the 80%+ of it that is complete garbage and has zero scientific basis.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Ah, I remember first semester. When the OMM you learned was kind of in line with some stuff from physical therapy and you could immediately see/feel results, even if they were just minor. Good times.

It gradually devolves. Honestly, the OMM that has real merit could just be taught all at once over one semester alongside a regular medschool curriculum. But its not. It’s dragged out and eventually you realize its been a whole semester and you’ve learned like 5 stretches that work and spent the rest of the time memorizing patterns of motion that just don’t exist in any reality. Do you really think we all came in super close-minded? I really tried at it but theres so much nonsense to sift through just to get to that little bit that’s actually worth anything that I just wrote off the whole practice of OMM.

The people who do devote themselves to doing this stuff, like the NMM folks, really are beasts at biomechanics and can do the stuff that does work really well. But getting good at it takes a tremendous amount of time and the benefits are marginal at best.

Seriously though. During muscle energy and soft tissue it's like, "oh this isn't so bad, I wonder what all the fuss was about. I can see why this could help someone."

That drastically changes when you get to cranial and chapman's points... every class inevitably turns into this now:

 

[Espressso]

Seriously though. During muscle energy and soft tissue it's like, "oh this isn't so bad, I wonder what all the fuss was about. I can see why this could help someone."

That drastically changes when you get to cranial and chapman's points... every class inevitably turns into this now:

View attachment 243755

lollll. Agreed but I will say, there are quite a few students at my school that have drank the kool-aid and are all about it, Pylorus chapman point and all...

 

[alprazoslam]

Feels like a lot of the people who grasp onto omm are the not great performers. They really want to be the BEST at something so they dig way deep in OMM and ignore other classes

Of course they are then the best at omm since lol ain’t nobody got time for that

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

It's not like these techniques have been around for 100 years or anything

Homeopathic medicine has been around even longer, that must mean it's extra better.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Homeopathic medicine has been around even longer, that must mean it's extra better.

Seriously man, grow up and actually prove that it works. Stop appealing to authority.

I think he was implying that many of our methods have been around a long time and for most, no one has proved their efficacy despite this (i.e. because it can't be proven). He was agreeing with you, not appealing to authority.

 

[QueenJames]

Cranial is bull****.

Chapmans is bull****.

OA release, Muscle energy, HVLA, soft tissue stuff, kneading and stretching, etc. is aight.

Stop trying to cover up y'all insecurities.

We went to DO school to become physicians and most of us finna do primary care.

So stfuuuuu and enjoy the ride and hop on that train bruh.

CHOO CHOOOOOO!

 

[Garurumon]

Apologies for detracting attention and discussion from everyone roasting OMM...but back to regarding the exams: I came across this from the FAQ of a new DO school addressing if students should take both:

"With the unification of accreditation of residency (graduate medical education) programs, it is expected that an increasing number of residency program directors will become familiar with COMLEX scores, thus reducing the need for DO students to take USMLE in addition to COMLEX. Some OMSs elect to take some or all parts of the USMLE because they believe that this may improve their chances of getting in to a competitive residency program. We will advise students regarding the USMLE on an individual basis depending on their goals. Students who elect to take an USMLE examination must commit the time required for preparing and taking this additional examination."

The general consensus on here seems that USMLE will be more important following the merger, plus it seems that this school doesn't feel too hot about preparing its students for USMLE, so reading the bold made me uneasy. But I'm not a med student yet, so what do you guys think of schools who take stances like this?

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I think he was implying that many of our methods have been around a long time and for most, no one has proved their efficacy despite this (i.e. because it can't be proven). He was agreeing with you, not appealing to authority.

Ah, if that's the case I will moderate my reply.

 

[Espressso]

Apologies for detracting attention and discussion from everyone roasting OMM...but back to regarding the exams: I came across this from the FAQ of a new DO school addressing if students should take both:

"With the unification of accreditation of residency (graduate medical education) programs, it is expected that an increasing number of residency program directors will become fkamiliar with COMLEX scores, thus reducing the need for DO students to take USMLE in addition to COMLEX. Some OMSs elect to take some or all parts of the USMLE because they believe that this may improve their chances of getting in to a competitive residency program. We will advise students regarding the USMLE on an individual basis depending on their goals. Students who elect to take an USMLE examination must commit the time required for preparing and taking this additional examination."

The general consensus on here seems that USMLE will be more important following the merger, plus it seems that this school doesn't feel too hot about preparing its students for USMLE, so reading the bold made me uneasy. But I'm not a med student yet, so what do you guys think of schools who take stances like this?

I think the bold is the cozy way for a DO school to look at it. But how can they ensure that? I don't think they can. I think the more probable outcome is that the previous ACGME programs will continue to favor USMLE over COMLEX. And previous AOA residencies will be able to look at both independently.

 

[alprazoslam]

Worst part is comlex cost more than USMLE.

 

[libertyyne]

Apologies for detracting attention and discussion from everyone roasting OMM...but back to regarding the exams: I came across this from the FAQ of a new DO school addressing if students should take both:

"With the unification of accreditation of residency (graduate medical education) programs, it is expected that an increasing number of residency program directors will become familiar with COMLEX scores, thus reducing the need for DO students to take USMLE in addition to COMLEX. Some OMSs elect to take some or all parts of the USMLE because they believe that this may improve their chances of getting in to a competitive residency program. We will advise students regarding the USMLE on an individual basis depending on their goals. Students who elect to take an USMLE examination must commit the time required for preparing and taking this additional examination."

The general consensus on here seems that USMLE will be more important following the merger, plus it seems that this school doesn't feel too hot about preparing its students for USMLE, so reading the bold made me uneasy. But I'm not a med student yet, so what do you guys think of schools who take stances like this?

ACGME and previous AOA programs that currently take Comlex only DO's will continue to do so. New programs may think about it especially family practice. Anything more competitive than primary care will in all liklihood require USMLE . The tests are different, the populations taking the tests are different and an apples to apples comparison can not be made easily. PDs are not dumb and becoming familiar with comlex has not been a real hurdle for their ability to interpret the test results.

 

[deleted645092]

Apologies for detracting attention and discussion from everyone roasting OMM...but back to regarding the exams: I came across this from the FAQ of a new DO school addressing if students should take both:

"With the unification of accreditation of residency (graduate medical education) programs, it is expected that an increasing number of residency program directors will become familiar with COMLEX scores, thus reducing the need for DO students to take USMLE in addition to COMLEX. Some OMSs elect to take some or all parts of the USMLE because they believe that this may improve their chances of getting in to a competitive residency program. We will advise students regarding the USMLE on an individual basis depending on their goals. Students who elect to take an USMLE examination must commit the time required for preparing and taking this additional examination."

The general consensus on here seems that USMLE will be more important following the merger, plus it seems that this school doesn't feel too hot about preparing its students for USMLE, so reading the bold made me uneasy. But I'm not a med student yet, so what do you guys think of schools who take stances like this?

To be honest that seems like a more reasonable stance than most schools seem to be taking. Mine has taken the stance that “you all should just focus on COMLEX because any residency that doesn’t take you because you didn’t take USMLE isn’t a residency you want to be at anyways”. The bold is pretty much the party line, but they’re doing a good thing in acknowledging that some students will choose to take it, and will advise students accordingly. In reality most DO students will go into primary care, and it isn’t unreasonable to say that you probably don’t need USMLE for MOST primary care residencies.

My school recently came out and acknowledged that most of the students here who take both tests tend to fall into two camps; Those who are at the top of the class already and crush USMLE, and those who probably shouldn’t have taken it because they end up barely passing or failing. I hope that they’ll utilize the data they have now and advise students on a case-by-case basis to assess student goals and weigh the risks of benefits of whether a student should take both.

 

[Neopolymath]

The bottom line is that you should listen to approximately 0% of what your DO school says or the AOA says if you aren't going for FM. But you are on SDN so you already know DO schools and the AOA have some of the worst advising around.

 

[shadowlightfox]

Or the microanatomy!

Tensegrity!

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Tensegrity!

mercy, did you get the pic of the stupid cable tower in DC also?

 

[shadowlightfox]

mercy, did you get the pic of the stupid cable tower in DC also?

Lol I don't remember exactly what I got, but I'm getting an extreme deja vu at you mentioning cable so most likely!

 

[ProfAnon]

Tensegrity!

I don't think it's fair to say tensegrity belongs in the realm of pseudoscience like cranial et al., nor does it come from the world of osteopathy. It's a valid scientific model for biological systems developed from engineering principles, mainly by a Yale-trained scientist/physician from Harvard Medical School. Some osteopaths have grasped on to it for its obvious connection to the musculoskeletal system, but it is also being used as a model in molecular biology.

 

[ProfAnon]

Saw the same dog and pony show. Gawd, I despise that sonuvabitch.

I agree. Have you ever tried to ask him a question? Did you ever get a straight answer?

 

[Goro]

I agree. Have you ever tried to ask him a question? Did you ever get a straight answer?

Yes, and the only answers are laced with contempt for student aspirations.

For him the clock is stopped at 1965

 

[12jas]

Lol I don't remember exactly what I got, but I'm getting an extreme deja vu at you mentioning cable so most likely!

mercy, did you get the pic of the stupid cable tower in DC also?

We literally played with a children's toy for an hour talking about tensegrity. AN ENTIRE F****** hour passing around this toy.

 

[FourniersGreenGang]

Yes, and the only answers are laced with contempt for student aspirations.

For him the clock is stopped at 1965

Were the answers along the lines of, "we view every DO that doesn't go into primary care as a failure."? Because that's how I usually think they feel about things.

 

[ritts]

Cranial is bull****.

Chapmans is bull****.

OA release, Muscle energy, HVLA, soft tissue stuff, kneading and stretching, etc. is aight.

Stop trying to cover up y'all insecurities.

We went to DO school to become physicians and most of us finna do primary care.

So stfuuuuu and enjoy the ride and hop on that train bruh.

CHOO CHOOOOOO!

you're crazy... I like you

 

[DPTinthemaking15]

This is why I love SDN. There are a few DO students (that are trying to get insta famous) sharing this, and telling other students they don’t need to take the USMLE. I get my feathers ruffled every now and then on this site, but at least I’ll be an informed student.

 

[Goro]

Were the answers along the lines of, "we view every DO that doesn't go into primary care as a failure."? Because that's how I usually think they feel about things.

No, more like "we don't give a damn if you want to do something other than Primary Care". Really dismissive, and I still have the tooth marks in my tongue where I had to bite down in order to not slice the guy into little pieces.

 

[shadowlightfox]

I don't think it's fair to say tensegrity belongs in the realm of pseudoscience like cranial et al., nor does it come from the world of osteopathy. It's a valid scientific model for biological systems developed from engineering principles, mainly by a Yale-trained scientist/physician from Harvard Medical School. Some osteopaths have grasped on to it for its obvious connection to the musculoskeletal system, but it is also being used as a model in molecular biology.

I only said it to make myself sound legit!

 

[BorntobeDO?]

I don't think it's fair to say tensegrity belongs in the realm of pseudoscience like cranial et al., nor does it come from the world of osteopathy. It's a valid scientific model for biological systems developed from engineering principles, mainly by a Yale-trained scientist/physician from Harvard Medical School. Some osteopaths have grasped on to it for its obvious connection to the musculoskeletal system, but it is also being used as a model in molecular biology.

OMM latches onto literally anything. I mean I had a lab dedicated to cupping, lectures on acupuncture. I wouldn't even be surprised if there wasn't homeopathy stuck in those PowerPoint somewhere.

 

[alprazoslam]

OMM latches onto literally anything. I mean I had a lab dedicated to cupping, lectures on acupuncture. I wouldn't even be surprised if there wasn't homeopathy stuck in those PowerPoint somewhere.

Yes I’ve never seen such a practice that lives by the ideal of “if it sounds good it must be legit”

Some omm is good but the philosophy as a whole is for quacks and all the hardcore omm people I’ve met have an iq of like 80 and are annoying AF which makes it worse and more stupid.

And why the heck do we take this omm comat it’s so stupid and comlex doesn’t equal usmle because it’s got *****s who write the questions and no quality control

 

[alprazoslam]

Just to add in I’m pretty sure the people who write nbome questions are people who barely passed boards and are fm docs that love omm

Not bashing fm but the fm docs that teach at my school are barely more intelligent than the average midlevel which is saying a lot so if these people write our questions then mother of God take USMLE and not just comlex

They say if you can’t do, then teach and if you can’t teach then brag about how awesome you think you weee in residency and how (insert X specialty that you probably didn’t match into) thanked you so much for you saving their patient on a daily basis instead of actually teaching us. And then continue to brag that fm is hardest specialty and that you literally do everything every other doc does and only refer out for insurance reasons (lol my @SS)

That’s how it was at my school anyway

 

[Spectreman]

Cranial is bull****.

Chapmans is bull****.

OA release, Muscle energy, HVLA, soft tissue stuff, kneading and stretching, etc. is aight.

Stop trying to cover up y'all insecurities.

We went to DO school to become physicians and most of us finna do primary care.

So stfuuuuu and enjoy the ride and hop on that train bruh.

CHOO CHOOOOOO!

Right!!??
I’m in my 30’s with a BUNCH of kids, we lived 10 years on 20k/yr... so every time I hear people mitchin’ and bone’n about PC being “low income” I wanna slap them in the face with their 6 figure salary and cush life.

People need to own their life decisions and be grateful they’re on the road to being physicians.