Ask LizzyM (Almost) Anything 2012 edition

[plumazul]

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oh, of course. That'd be stupid - the sacrificed years of attending salary would most likely outweigh the funding, and each program has very few spots - I'm just wondering on a back-up level.


Thanks.

I would hope that MD/PhD applicants want to be scientist. So wouldn't the canonical choice of "back-up" plan be PhD only? I will soon be applying to MSTPs and a few other MD/PhD programs, because I believe I want to spend the rest of my life in research, while never losing contact with the real world/human aspect of my work. Should I not be accepted anywhere, LizzyM is correct, I have no interest in any MD only program. I want to be a physician, because it will make me a better scientist.

 

[noncon]

China? You sure about that?

You just named a few countries associated with academics and flew with it...... china does not have med school competition. Their med school is a consolation prize for not getting accepted into COLLEGE (with grad school understood to be a part of that)

Sent from my DROID RAZR using SDN Mobile

I meant schools like the IITs in India. I wasn't talking about medical schools.

 

[premedquestion]

Hello LizzyM!

I hope I'm not too late for a quick question -

Is a high MCAT (say, a 40) able to make up for a lousy GPA (say, a 3.4), given an upward trend? Or would the low GPA keep you out regardless of the MCAT?

 

[SpecterGT260]

I meant schools like the IITs in India. I wasn't talking about medical schools.

😕
Ok.....

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[aspiring20]

Hello LizzyM!

I hope I'm not too late for a quick question -

Is a high MCAT (say, a 40) able to make up for a lousy GPA (say, a 3.4), given an upward trend? Or would the low GPA keep you out regardless of the MCAT?

i dont think a 3.4 is a lousy GPA at many schools outside of lizzym's tier. and a 40 is stellar no matter where. using the lizzym formula, that's a 74, which is very competitive at MOST med schools, including upper middle and lower upper tiers. heck, if i had that combination, i would be dancing my victory dance already. i think a 74 lizzym matched by solid ECs without serious red flags should be more than enough to get into a semi-top tier.

but that's just me. question is, do you REALLY have a 40? or are you AIMING for a 40? if it's the former, congrats! if it's the latter, then best of luck!

 

[SpecterGT260]

Hello LizzyM!

I hope I'm not too late for a quick question -

Is a high MCAT (say, a 40) able to make up for a lousy GPA (say, a 3.4), given an upward trend? Or would the low GPA keep you out regardless of the MCAT?

Look at amcas stats. The acceptance rates are published for all score ranges

Sent from my DROID RAZR using SDN Mobile

 

[DoctorSeuss2000]

Hi LizzyM,

I am recently brainstorming ideas for my personal statement and wanted to get your advice on these questions.

1. I was told by my pre-health advisor that when it comes to writing about activities/experiences in the personal statement, try to pick the two or three most important ones to describe that won't be repeated in other sections of the app (i.e. experiences and activities sections on AMCAS). However, I was reading successful personal statements from a couple of books that I borrowed and found that most of these samples seemed to be a recap of their resume, included at least 5 or 6 activities/experiences that defined their interest in medicine, and some even sounded like a sales pitch of why they should be accepted. Do you think this is the correct way to tackle the personal statement or should one just focus on one or two meaningful activities that piqued their interest and write about them in detail?

2. One of the activities that I would like to mention in my personal statement to answer the question of why medicine was a clinical volunteer experience at a level 1 trauma center that I had back when I just finished freshman year of high school. It seems like a general consensus that what happened in high school is almost irrelevant unless the activity was continued throughout college. However, that experience was my first real exposure at what medicine is really like. Seeing people in comas on life support after gun shot wounds and traffic accidents left a really deep impression, especially at such an early age, and has since then affected my decision to go into medicine. Do you think that it is a good idea to include it in the personal statement or will adcoms just chuckle and think "what does a 15/16 year old know about medicine?"

Your advice is much appreciated. Thank you and Happy New Year!

 

[GLaDOS]

Just registered yesterday and found this gem of a thread today! Hope my questions aren't too amateur as I'm still figuring out this whole non-trad pre-med odyssey.

I got my CNA recently and found work as the director of volunteer services (time split between volunteer manager duties and infant aide duties) at an adoption agency. 0 - 18 month olds are placed here while the mother decides whether she wants to parent and if not, then until the baby is placed with a family. While not all the children are medically at-need, we do take them all to see our physician for basic care and many of them require ongoing medical care from conditions related to being drug-exposed, traumatic delivery or poor prenatal care. Would this be considered clinical employment? My goal is to become a pediatrician and I do have a strong nonprofit preference.

Also, would this carry any weight on a medical school application? I helped found a very successful foster-based dog rescue and am on the board of directors as their medical director (was a licensed veterinary technician for many years).

Lastly, given I am not aiming for a top tier school like yours and will go literally anywhere I get an acceptance, how important is research? Any suggestions I could pursue, given my service-oriented inclination?

Cute story about your daughter! My husband was the only 1 of his friends with no visible tattoos when we met and it was strangely appealing to me. We both have tattoos on our wedding fingers now (just a small lotus flower on me), so I'll have to wear a large band to cover it up eventually.

Thanks again for sharing your wealth of knowledge. Hope you have a happy, happy New Year!

 

[argama]

I meant schools like the IITs in India. I wasn't talking about medical schools.

that's weird, because you were talking about md schools, osteopathic, and carribean schools too. Now you're talking about IIT in India and not medical schools? And yes, to IIT's credit, I know it's a very competitive and very hard school to get into if you want to study there. But you were talkin about med schools, soo....

At US MD schools, about 50% of students who apply are accepted. Then you have osteopathic medical schools which probably accept even more. More students get accepted the next time they apply. And many choose the Caribbean path. The result appears to be that almost everyone who seeks medicine eventually gets accepted.

 

[Neuronette]

LizzyM,
1. If a student has a GREAT undergrad GPA but perhaps, they took a couple of courses at a local college while in high school and did very poorly, how would that reflect in admissions?
2. Also, as a student who studying public policy/health, I feel that I would get a better understanding of health disparities and problems by volunteering in other countries. I can see how volunteering abroad has become pretty commonplace for volunteers and there are reasons against it (voluntourism, fostering local dependency, etc); however, would it necessarily be looked as a bad/negative thing if one did go on a trip?
3. My MCAT will be the last of its version (2014). I may take a gap year and so by the time I apply, many schools may want the new version... Should I take the 2014 version anyway, or wait and just do the 2015 version before I apply?
Thank you!!

 

[GrabSlamBoot]

Do schools ever take into consideration and applicant's family member attending the undergraduate institution but not the medical school?

 

[Sephiroth]

I would hope that MD/PhD applicants want to be scientist. So wouldn't the canonical choice of "back-up" plan be PhD only? I will soon be applying to MSTPs and a few other MD/PhD programs, because I believe I want to spend the rest of my life in research, while never losing contact with the real world/human aspect of my work. Should I not be accepted anywhere, LizzyM is correct, I have no interest in any MD only program. I want to be a physician, because it will make me a better scientist.

Not given the state of PhD's in the US. And more importantly, I still want to have clinical involvement and while the research I want to do is more basic than straight clinical trials, I don't want to be too far removed from medical application. An MD can still conduct research, and even have a research-heavy time allotment if they are good at getting the grants, and have academic positions (what I want), especially after a research position. A PhD however cannot have that clinical side. So while the MD-PhD is preferable, I would opt to go to an MD school and be engaged in research as much as I could during that time and do a research fellowship later on over going to to a PhD program, all things considered, with a few possible exceptions.

 

[ohsowhat]

How do you see working as a TA for a non-science class? Is it still a plus even though it's not for a science class?

How much of a plus is a senior thesis in neuroscience? Would it be worth the extra time spent on it?

Thank you!

 

[LizzyM]

I just spent quite a bit reading over this thread to make sure that my questions were not asked and answered before I post, and it looks like I might be late??? Might have missed the post mentioning the deadline but if not here are my questions

1. My school has just put together a pre-health committee, and people applying this coming cycle ( as me) will be the first for which they write the letters. For that reason and the fact that they are still organizing the committee ( that is trying to define the roles and how to help the students, we as students often do suggestions in that regard), I feel like a letter by them will not be the best evaluation of who I am. However, I have some science professors, several, that I feel will write a better description of who I am , what makes me a good candidate etc.... Could I try to obtain letters from 2 of them in addition to that of the committee? Or should it be one or the other? I have been told that if your school has a pre-Heath committee, they should be the one to write a letter, not professors. Is that accurate?

Many schools have a prehealth committee that collects LORs on behalf of an applicant and quote liberally from those letters in the committee letter and then (usually) append the letters to the committee letter. I would strongly recommend that your school do the same. If not, you can collect letters yourself and submit them in addition to the committee letter. This would be optional if you have a committee letter but I think that it would be a good idea.

2. I am registered for only 8 credit hours this semester, because I want to take time to further my volunteering activities, start shadowing as well as prepare for the MCAT. Since I decided to go back to school and apply for medical school, I have taken about 30 to 32 credit hours per year( last semester was 17) while holding a job ( seven years as CNA/ Patient Care Tech/ Certified Medication Technician, working mostly in hospital settings), and with a family to take care of. Will it be looked down upon, the fact that I am taking only 8 credit hours this semester? I may also be involved in a Biostats research lab of a medical school during the semester for about 16 hours a week and will sill be working

If that helps I am a Nontrad student

Thank you for your answers if you have time

As a non-trad, some adcoms will cut you some slack. Good luck with your journey.

 

[LizzyM]

A University of California pre-med advisor wrote to one of our students and told her a few medical schools have recently started insisting on Calculus-based Physics instead of Algebra-based Physics. Apparently this is new. Do you (LizzyM) or anyone else know anything about this development?

Check the MSAR. I don't know anything about it.

 

[LizzyM]

Hello LizzyM! Thanks for answering questions, it has been very helpful. I have a couple of my own:

1. You indicated that LOR's from doctors shadowed and volunteer coordinators are not helpful, but what about religious leaders or pastors that organized missions trips?

I don't see these often. I wouldn't expect them to be anything but flattering and therefore they aren't very helpful. I really wouldn't expect a pastor who has organized a mission trip to be able to address the academic rigors of medical school which is generally the purpose of those letters (the reason the 2 science /1 non-science professors who have taught you is the norm).

2. If I have more than 4 years of school/credits, what are the extra years considered? Is there room on the AMCAS to put additional years that are not post-bacc?

Thanks,

Xenops

Everything beyond ~90 hours is considered yr 4.

 

[LizzyM]

Hey LizzyM, thanks for taking the time to do this Q&A, much appreciated 🙂

LizzyM,

Do the top schools expect all of their medical students to be significantly involved in research in their future careers? If so, then why wouldn't they expect their medical students to get MD-PhDs if they want them all to do major research? For me, I feel like getting an MD means that I can be involved in significant patient care and then do research if time permits...

And if these schools are looking for "future leaders in medicine", can't I become a doctor who leads by providing quality patient care instead of only doing research most of the time?

If these schools want academic physicians, I feel like I can become one through patient care and teaching students through association with a medical school.

What drives US News rankings for research institutions? In part, it is NIH funding. How does one get NIH funding? By doing good research, submitting grant proposals and being funded to do more research, rinse and repeat. If a school wants to rise in the rankings or remain at the top, it wants faculty who do research. Schools may also like to have the "bragging rights" of being the alma mater of many department chairs and deans of medical schools. How does one become the Department Chair or Dean? Research funding!

So research is the coin of the realm. Furthermore, students who want to do research populate the research facilities of faculty who are doing research and make the research enterprise more productive.

Get the idea?

 

[LizzyM]

I've been lurking these forums for a few months and the discovery of this great thread prompted me to finally create an account and post.

Reading through all of your informative,prompt and accurate (not to mention witty) responses to the questions posed in this thread has been so much more helpful than spending time with the somewhat lackluster pre-med advisor at my institution. I'd like to thank you for taking your time to assist us!

Now for my questions:

1. I feel much closer to the post-doc that I work under in my research lab than my PI, and that as a result my post-doc could potentially write a better LOR. Is it still recommended to ask my PI for the letter, and if so, how would I go about getting to know my PI better in order to instill a sense of familiarity that would otherwise be incommunicable through the LOR?

A post-doc in a big lab is fine.

2. How do adcoms feel about LOR's from professors NOT in the natural sciences, i.e. math or physics professors?

😕 The natural sciences are BCPM: biology, chemistry, physics, math. Do you mean non-science such as history or philosophy? Most schools want one non-science letter, and two science letters.

3. To the adcoms, is there any perceived difference in shadowing a practitioner in a general hospital (e.g. a University-affiliated one) compared to a private practice (not sure if this counts as a hypothetical or not)?

No difference. Some physicians never set foot in the hospital but leave that work to hospitalists. Some practice in an office suite and perform procedures in an outpatient setting not located within a hospital. Still doctoring.

 

[LizzyM]

In countries like China, India and elsewhere, there are programs where MILLIONS of students apply for a few hundred seats. At US MD schools, about 50% of students who apply are accepted.

The number is <50% and has been <50% for at least the last 12 years.
https://www.aamc.org/download/161690/data/table17.pdf

Then you have osteopathic medical schools which probably accept even more.

There are about ~2,800 osteopathic matriculants per year compared with ~19,000 allopathic matriculants so it isn't that big a dent in the >24,000 who didn't get admitted to allopathic medical school.

More students get accepted the next time they apply.

Some are more successful on the 2nd or 3rd try but the best odds of getting admitted are on the first try. Most who are unsuccessful after one or more tries decide to pursue a different carreer.

And many choose the Caribbean path.

And good luck to them... they are going to need it. The probability of becoming a licensed physician in the US through that route is exceedingly low.

The result appears to be that almost everyone who seeks medicine eventually gets accepted.

Not true and very sad if you believe it.

Now medical school admission is big business with consultants, test prep companies, etc. It is in the interest of these companies to exaggerate the difficulty of admissions and make them more complicated than they are. It is also in the interest of students to exaggerate the difficulty of the admission process in order to dissuade other students from applying so there is less competition. My question to you is - is the medical school admission process really that complicated? Is complicating something simple making us all neurotic?

Yes it is complicated. Look at those numbers in table 17 and tell me that no one needs to be among the top 40% of their peer group to get into medical school.

 

[LizzyM]

Hello LizzyM!

I hope I'm not too late for a quick question -

Is a high MCAT (say, a 40) able to make up for a lousy GPA (say, a 3.4), given an upward trend? Or would the low GPA keep you out regardless of the MCAT?

Is this a hypothetical or do you have a MCAT of 40? PM me if you have a PM of 40 and a lousy gpa.

 

[notbobtrustme]

In countries like China, India and elsewhere, there are programs where MILLIONS of students apply for a few hundred seats. At US MD schools, about 50% of students who apply are accepted. Then you have osteopathic medical schools which probably accept even more. More students get accepted the next time they apply. And many choose the Caribbean path. The result appears to be that almost everyone who seeks medicine eventually gets accepted. Now medical school admission is big business with consultants, test prep companies, etc. It is in the interest of these companies to exaggerate the difficulty of admissions and make them more complicated than they are. It is also in the interest of students to exaggerate the difficulty of the admission process in order to dissuade other students from applying so there is less competition. My question to you is - is the medical school admission process really that complicated? Is complicating something simple making us all neurotic?

It's 50% of a group that's already self-selecting. If you have a 2.8 GPA, you probably won't be wasting your money on applications. If you scored a 24 on the MCAT, you probably won't be wasting your money on applications. The students who do apply tend to have high GPAs already, good MCAT scores, good ECs, etc etc. This is your cohort, not the entire college student pool. It's like looking at an NFL team and lamenting that 50% of the roster are starters.

Other countries have a simple "pass and you attend" policy. Score high enough on the entrance exam, congrats, you're going to be a doctor. You also pretty much have to decide at 18 and those countries' are extremely non-trad unfriendly.

 

[LizzyM]

Hi LizzyM,

I am recently brainstorming ideas for my personal statement and wanted to get your advice on these questions.

1. I was told by my pre-health advisor that when it comes to writing about activities/experiences in the personal statement, try to pick the two or three most important ones to describe that won't be repeated in other sections of the app (i.e. experiences and activities sections on AMCAS). However, I was reading successful personal statements from a couple of books that I borrowed and found that most of these samples seemed to be a recap of their resume, included at least 5 or 6 activities/experiences that defined their interest in medicine, and some even sounded like a sales pitch of why they should be accepted. Do you think this is the correct way to tackle the personal statement or should one just focus on one or two meaningful activities that piqued their interest and write about them in detail?

There is a good sticky here: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=536199
about writing a personal statement (PS).

Sometime later this year there will be a sticky here
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=897817
with info on people willilng to read your PS for the 2013-2014 cycle.

I like a theme with about three examples. I always think back on one I read a million years ago that I've changed slightly out of respect for the original writer but it was something like my journey to medicine can be defined by fire: fire working the grill at a snack shack and providing first aid to fellow workers, fire used in the lab with some description of the the research and finally the fire of a cigarette lighter representing his work with a smoking cessation program on campus. So he highlighted work, research and health related volunteering. Of course, these were also included in the experience section and that's fine.

2. One of the activities that I would like to mention in my personal statement to answer the question of why medicine was a clinical volunteer experience at a level 1 trauma center that I had back when I just finished freshman year of high school. It seems like a general consensus that what happened in high school is almost irrelevant unless the activity was continued throughout college. However, that experience was my first real exposure at what medicine is really like. Seeing people in comas on life support after gun shot wounds and traffic accidents left a really deep impression, especially at such an early age, and has since then affected my decision to go into medicine. Do you think that it is a good idea to include it in the personal statement or will adcoms just chuckle and think "what does a 15/16 year old know about medicine?"

Your advice is much appreciated. Thank you and Happy New Year!

No, not the stuff you saw as a kid. What experiences have you had as an adult that have confirmed that this is the right decision for you. If you want to say that what you saw as a young teen planted a seed in you, then tell us how you have watered that seed, nourished it, pruned it, and watched it grow. But don't make the essay about the seed that you've cherished but done nothing with.

 

[noncon]

It's like looking at an NFL team and lamenting that 50% of the roster are starters.

What LizzyM is saying is very valuable to me because I am shooting for schools like Harvard. However, elsewhere the reality is different.

If you look at the book AACOMAS Matriculant Profile: 2011 Entering Class, which is a free download, the mean Science GPA of accepted students is a low 3.36. If you subtract 0.86 where 0.86 is twice the standard deviation, you see that even those with GPA's of 2.5 have been accepted. Now you will say these are all URMs. Then look at the whites-only figures: mean GPA 3.38, two sigma is again 0.86 for whites. This means whites with 2.52 GPA are being accepted by osteopathic medical schools. These are not NFL players - people who should not be studying medicine are walking into medical schools. Getting into medical school appears to be a piece of cake, at least from the data. Real life too seems to bear that out - I recently met Rita Osborne, the med school director at SUU, which is a very low-ranked school and she said 100% of her students have consistently been getting into medical schools over the last several years. And they have MCATs like 20 or 21. A senior person at AACOM, Tom Levitan or someone like that, told me the same thing when I met him. Many allo medical schools also take people with equally low statistics but AMCAS is not as forthcoming with data as is AACOM.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...fZ--f1rrO7O5LOgqOTRSA&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.dmQ

 

[LizzyM]

Just registered yesterday and found this gem of a thread today! Hope my questions aren't too amateur as I'm still figuring out this whole non-trad pre-med odyssey.

I got my CNA recently and found work as the director of volunteer services (time split between volunteer manager duties and infant aide duties) at an adoption agency. 0 - 18 month olds are placed here while the mother decides whether she wants to parent and if not, then until the baby is placed with a family. While not all the children are medically at-need, we do take them all to see our physician for basic care and many of them require ongoing medical care from conditions related to being drug-exposed, traumatic delivery or poor prenatal care. Would this be considered clinical employment? My goal is to become a pediatrician and I do have a strong nonprofit preference.

On the AMCAS application, employment is specified as "military" or "non-military". This would be "employment, non-military". Just list it that way and describe what you do. The adcoms will take it into consideration. In all likelihood, you should have some experience shadowing physicians or working or volunteering along side physicians.

Also, would this carry any weight on a medical school application? I helped found a very successful foster-based dog rescue and am on the board of directors as their medical director (was a licensed veterinary technician for many years).

That sounds like the category "volunter, non-clinical". It is related to community service and shows that you work well in a team for a common goal.

Lastly, given I am not aiming for a top tier school like yours and will go literally anywhere I get an acceptance, how important is research? Any suggestions I could pursue, given my service-oriented inclination?

Buy the MSAR.https://www.aamc.org/students/applying/requirements/msar/ In it you'll see that the majority of successful applicants at every school have research experience. If you don't, you'll be in the minority but if you have other interesting and unusual activities (and it seems that you do), it may not be a dealbreaker.

 

[LizzyM]

LizzyM,
1. If a student has a GREAT undergrad GPA but perhaps, they took a couple of courses at a local college while in high school and did very poorly, how would that reflect in admissions?
2. Also, as a student who studying public policy/health, I feel that I would get a better understanding of health disparities and problems by volunteering in other countries. I can see how volunteering abroad has become pretty commonplace for volunteers and there are reasons against it (voluntourism, fostering local dependency, etc); however, would it necessarily be looked as a bad/negative thing if one did go on a trip?
3. My MCAT will be the last of its version (2014). I may take a gap year and so by the time I apply, many schools may want the new version... Should I take the 2014 version anyway, or wait and just do the 2015 version before I apply?
Thank you!!

1. I don't answer hypothetical questions and I don't answer what are my chances.
2. No.
3.Take it when you are ready. There will be a few years when both old and new versions will be acceptable.

 

[LizzyM]

Do schools ever take into consideration and applicant's family member attending the undergraduate institution but not the medical school?

I don't know. Some may, some may not.

 

[LizzyM]

How do you see working as a TA for a non-science class? Is it still a plus even though it's not for a science class?

As working as a TA. If a school values TA experience, then you've got that. Either way, you have the skills you acquired as you learned to be a successful TA.

How much of a plus is a senior thesis in neuroscience? Would it be worth the extra time spent on it?

Thank you!

A thesis is evidence of independent scholarship. That's important to some schools. What it is worth depends on its value relative to what you might do with the time if you didn't do a senior thesis so I really can't answer that.

 

[LizzyM]

What LizzyM is saying is very valuable to me because I am shooting for schools like Harvard. However, elsewhere the reality is different.

If you look at the book AACOMAS Matriculant Profile: 2011 Entering Class, which is a free download, the mean Science GPA of accepted students is a low 3.36. If you subtract 0.86 where 0.86 is twice the standard deviation, you see that even those with GPA's of 2.5 have been accepted. Now you will say these are all URMs. Then look at the whites-only figures: mean GPA 3.38, two sigma is again 0.86 for whites. This means whites with 2.52 GPA are being accepted by osteopathic medical schools. These are not NFL players - people who should not be studying medicine are walking into medical schools. Getting into medical school appears to be a piece of cake, at least from the data. Real life too seems to bear that out - I recently met Rita Osborne, the med school director at SUU, which is a very low-ranked school and she said 100% of her students have consistently been getting into medical schools over the last several years. And they have MCATs like 20 or 21. A senior person at AACOM, Tom Levitan or someone like that, told me the same thing when I met him. Many allo medical schools also take people with equally low statistics but AMCAS is not as forthcoming with data as is AACOM.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...fZ--f1rrO7O5LOgqOTRSA&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.dmQ

There are about 2800 matriculants to osteopathic schools in the US. Assuming a normal distribution, the number of students represented in the group 2 standard deviations from the mean are ~70 students or 2.5%. that is an exceedingly small pool from what we know to be a pool including all allopathics applicants of about 47,000 in the most recent application cycle.

Looking at data from AMCAS for the period from 2009-2011 (2 admission cycles, I think) we find 44 white matriculants with gpa <2.60 out of 37,718 white matriculants and 312 of the same group with MCAT < 21.
https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/app...mcat-gpa-grid-by-selected-race-ethnicity.html

Go ahead and tell people that getting into med school is a piece of cake that we exaggerate for our own aggrandizement.

Good luck.

 

[LizzyM]

It's been fun but my self-imposed deadline has passed.

I'm off to party with Mr. M.



Happy New Year!

 

[LizzyM]

Reopening this thread to add the following PM I received today

http://www.aacom.org/data/Documents/Trends-apps-enroll-grads.pdf

http://www.aacom.org/data/applicantsmatriculants/Documents/2012-Applicants.pdf

You are mistaken about the number of D.O. matriculants but you locked the thread before I had a chance to reply. 5,327 seats in class of 2016, from page 2 of the second PDF.

Even just looking at graduates, 4159 from class of 2011.