Ask LizzyM (Almost) Anything 2012 edition

[Stumpyman]

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Hi LizzyM-

I did my first 2 years of college at a CC, and I also did all my pre-reqs there (which includes o-chem, physics, etc)-- I had a 4.0 GPA from the CC. I'm doing upper division science courses at a 4-year, but I was wondering if I should possibly retake at least physics at my 4-year school? As I didn't realize at the time that it would've been so detrimental to do all my pre-reqs at a CC.

Will the fact that every pre-req was from a CC hold me back quite a bit? I attended it for financial reasons, and I was pretty involved in ECs as well.

Thanks!

 

[Si Se Puede]

Have you seen a lot of applicants that have an endless list of clubs/activities that makes you wonder how much time they dedicate to each club and how much genuine interest they have? Sometimes I see people with lots on their plate that at initial glance from us young peers, it does seem impressive. For example, all senate members at our school get several BS positions where they meet once a year for an hour or so to "discuss" something but the positions are titled fancy like "[Insert famous person] Ememergency Memorial Loan Fund" or "Academic Programs Review Committee" etc. Now, they could just be superstars at other places... 😀

 

[magicm]

Hi LizzyM

I was wondering what your view on MD/MPH programs is.

Also for someone interested in both public health and medicine is it best to combine the two degree regardless of the school one is accepted to or complete ones MD and then complete an MPH at a school like Tulane, GW or London?

 

[polyploidy516]

Obviously, working too late last night.

A quick look at my notes from interviews to date shows about 1/3 of the applicants has MCATs in the 32-35 range, almost 2/3rds are 36 or higher and about 3% < 32. So most of the applicants have MCAT scores that place them at the 96th percentile or higher and we rarely interview those who are below the 90th percentile.

Hi LizzyM,

As you had mentioned in one of the previous posts the MCAT ranges of the applicants to your school this year, could you please also indicate the GPA ranges as well?

Thank you once again,

polyploidy516

 

[GomerPyle]

MCAT of 11 PS/ 7 VR/ 11 BS - is that an instant rejection (from you) for an applicant with an average GPA (engineering major) with good extracurriculars, essays, LORs...

 

[noncon]

LizzyM, a number of top universities now offer fully online degrees. E.g. Stanford offers fully online degrees in Aeronautics and Astronautics, Civil Engineering, Computational and Mathematical Engineering, Electrical Engineering, Materials Science, Mechanical Engineering and Statistics. Other top schools like Columbia University also offer fully online degrees. These degrees are FAR MORE rigorous than your typical brick-and-mortar programs at many state schools. Are adcoms realizing this? Or are they still as biased against online degrees as they were decades ago?

 

[IL Pre Med]

LizzyM thank you for taking the time to do this! It's been very helpful, I just wanted to ask two quick questions:

Can a low undergrad GPA (2.89) with upwards trend (final 2 years ~3.5) be overlooked by a good graduate GPA (3.9)?

Also if a school takes 3 letters minimum would you send just 3 or would you get 5-6?

Thanks again! 🙂

By the way, happy holidays !

 

[nabilesmail]

Hi LizzyM,

I may have to reapply next year, I applied late this year with a 3.74 and a 34 (13-9-12). I kind of got senioritus and received straight B's this semester dropping my gpa to a mid 3.6. If I apply next cycle (and ace my next semester) with a 3.68-3.7 would I need to mention my one semester grade drop?

Thank you! =]

 

[LizzyM]

Hi LizzyM,

So I did 2 years of dual-enrollment in High School and received a 3.4 GPA, then I did 3 years at a university and attained a 3.97 GPA, bringing me to a 3.74 average. Is this worth mentioning / explaining in my personal statement if I'm aiming for research-heavy schools (i.e., top 30ish)?

I was too immature during H.S., and so I'd at least like for them to get that I am way different now.

Thanks!

The breakout: HS, college yr 1, yr 2, yr 3, yr 4 will be laid out on your AMCAS application in a very informative grid. Adcoms know that HS students aren't always as mature about their college courses as most college students are. No need to point out what is obvious to us. Use your limited essay space to describe why you want to be a physician and how you have tested your interest in medicine as a career.

 

[LizzyM]

Hi LizzyM,

If an applicant has a great deal of clinical employment, seeing many patients, doing procedures, etc, would it be of no benefit to do some form of clinical volunteering at that point?

Volunteering is important as it shows a willingness to be self-sacrificing for others. Non-clinical volunteering is great and some adcom members want to see that specifically in addition to whatever clinical stuff, paid or unpaid, that an applicant has done.

Also, you touched on the subject of clinical research possibly being viewed as a weak experience compared to bench research. But what if it involves doing all the patient visits, physiological testing, blood draws, medical history, collaborating with MD's, and lots of other procedures in addition to all of the crazy paperwork? I can speak intelligently about the studies I work on, but they are major multi-institutional studies that don't allow me to have input. Is that bad?

Thanks

It is the equivalent of tech work (not as highly valued as having some independent role as a researcher) but with the added benefit of having contact with human beings which has some similarity to clinical care.

You won't get a publication from something like that (particularly multi-institutional projects) but bench research can more easily result in papers for student investigators.

 

[LizzyM]

Hi LizzyM,

Thank you for your time, I really appreciate it.

I'm a sociology major and a biology minor for now. I only need 5 more BIO classes to do a biology major (along with my SOC major). I will apply to some top-tier schools. Does double-majoring help at all? How much?

No. not at all.

My sGPA is pretty low right now. Should I focus on bringing my sGPA up instead of double-majoring?

Absolutely!

How many WORK/ACTIVITIES do the accepted students usually list? i know that quality>quantity. I have a lot (~ 9)but most of them are only 1.5 year.

I usually see > 8 and < 14. It is rare to see < 9 or > 13.

I am Asian and I will graduate with magna cum laude. When I am applying to the top schools, should I even list magna cum laude as an award/honor? (What about Dean's List?) Will it hurt that it is not summa cum laude (I'm guessing that a lot of asians applying to top-tier schools have summa cum laude and i have to be in the top 40% of those applicants to have a chance...?)

Thanks a lot again! =]

Frankly, I rarely even look at honors...It isn't what I'm reading at the application to identify. Some adcom members like to see Phi Beta Kappa but other than that, most of it just doesn't matter to us, we can see your grades, your gpa and we read the LORs. If you want to list Latin honors go ahead but I will bet that most adcoms don't care.

 

[LizzyM]

Hi LizzyM-

I did my first 2 years of college at a CC, and I also did all my pre-reqs there (which includes o-chem, physics, etc)-- I had a 4.0 GPA from the CC. I'm doing upper division science courses at a 4-year, but I was wondering if I should possibly retake at least physics at my 4-year school? As I didn't realize at the time that it would've been so detrimental to do all my pre-reqs at a CC.

Will the fact that every pre-req was from a CC hold me back quite a bit? I attended it for financial reasons, and I was pretty involved in ECs as well.

Thanks!

Don't waste your time & money. Apply, hope for the best. If you don't get in anywhere the first time around, ask if you can talk to someone in the admissions office in the off-season (roughly mid-May to mid-July). If so, ask what held you back. If they tell you that you need to retake classes at a 4-year school, at that point you should do that. Frankly, I think it is unnecessary if you do well in the MCAT and keep up your grades at the university.

 

[Anamine]

How do you feel about gunners?

 

[LizzyM]

Have you seen a lot of applicants that have an endless list of clubs/activities that makes you wonder how much time they dedicate to each club and how much genuine interest they have? Sometimes I see people with lots on their plate that at initial glance from us young peers, it does seem impressive. For example, all senate members at our school get several BS positions where they meet once a year for an hour or so to "discuss" something but the positions are titled fancy like "[Insert famous person] Ememergency Memorial Loan Fund" or "Academic Programs Review Committee" etc. Now, they could just be superstars at other places... 😀

The really smart people don't list every blessed thing on their application but only those things that were substantial or important. Quality over quantity.

 

[LizzyM]

Hi LizzyM

I was wondering what your view on MD/MPH programs is.

Also for someone interested in both public health and medicine is it best to combine the two degree regardless of the school one is accepted to or complete ones MD and then complete an MPH at a school like Tulane, GW or London?

Many schools now offer MD/MPH completed in either 4 years or 5. It makes it easy to go directly from med school graduation into residency with the additional skill set. Some people choose to obtain the MPH during residency or fellowship. Of course, the down side is not having that public health skill set at an earlier point in your career. The advantage is being able to more carefully focus your classes on your specific interests at the intersection of medicine and public health.

 

[LizzyM]

Hi Lizzym,

As you had mentioned in one of the previous posts the MCAT ranges of the applicants to your school this year, could you please also indicate the GPA ranges as well?

Thank you once again,

polyploidy516

Just making a guess because I don't have time to sort through the data: two thirds are 3.8 or higher, one third between 3.6 and 3.79 and 3% < 3.6.

Did someone say "number *****"?

 

[LizzyM]

MCAT of 11 PS/ 7 VR/ 11 BS - is that an instant rejection (from you) for an applicant with an average GPA (engineering major) with good extracurriculars, essays, LORs...

That's very far below avg for my school and many other schools. Let's not get into what are my chances... of rejection.

 

[shahcoco]

Hi LizzyM,

A few more questions:

1) Is it possible (closer to common, than rare) to get into a top tier school if you do stellar in a post-bacc (no re-taking courses) and did average in HS and UG? (Assuming 6+ ECs, shadowing, clinical and all the Jazz McSchnazz)

2) Does the reputation of the post-bacc program have a lot of clout?

3) Is UCB Extension a favorably looked upon post bacc program by top tier schools?

Thank you & happy holidays!

 

[LizzyM]

LizzyM, a number of top universities now offer fully online degrees. E.g. Stanford offers fully online degrees in Aeronautics and Astronautics, Civil Engineering, Computational and Mathematical Engineering, Electrical Engineering, Materials Science, Mechanical Engineering and Statistics. Other top schools like Columbia University also offer fully online degrees. These degrees are FAR MORE rigorous than your typical brick-and-mortar programs at many state schools. Are adcoms realizing this? Or are they still as biased against online degrees as they were decades ago?

I have no idea. I don't know if AMCAS differentiates between online & in-person degree programs. If it doesn't, then I would, in all likelihood, never know if it were one or the other.

 

[Si Se Puede]

Is verbal the most important component of the MCAT? It seems like PS, BS you can study for to a greater extent and Verbal you "either get it or you dont." Also, verbal seems to be the best indicator of critical thinking and usually high verbal scorers score well in PS/BS anyways. Verbal is the lowest section for almost all applicants I would assume.

 

[LizzyM]

LizzyM thank you for taking the time to do this! It's been very helpful, I just wanted to ask two quick questions:

Can a low undergrad GPA (2.89) with upwards trend (final 2 years ~3.5) be overlooked by a good graduate GPA (3.9)?

Is this "what are my chances" or a hypothetical question?

Maybe you want to ask, can a poor undergrad gpa be made up for by an excellent graduate school gpa. The answer to that question is "very rarely".

There is too much grade inflation in grad school to put much value on grad school gpa.

Also if a school takes 3 letters minimum would you send just 3 or would you get 5-6?

Thanks again! 🙂

By the way, happy holidays !

I'd get the 2 science, 1 non-science that most schools want. Then, if circumstances dictate, I'd get a letter from every PI I've worked with and a letter from my current employer (if I'm employed) and/or a physician for whom I have worked in a professional capacity.

 

[Dires]

One thing that has always flustered me regarding the AAMC MCAT data is that there is no section where N is representative of test takers as opposed to tests administered. A lot of people retake the exam 2, 3 and sometimes even 4 times with scores that can vary by 10 points.

19,053 tests were scored at >30. But, that doesn't mean that there are 19,053 individuals who have a score greater than 30. In saying this it would be reasonable for one to assume that after a certain score the chances of a retake are minimal and thus you actual obtain a definitive quantity of applicants with a certain score (maybe scores of 33+).

Alas, I digress because I'm pretty sure AMCAS releases applicant data... Which still leads to further questions. https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/

I don't even know if I'm asking a question. Sorry LizzyM.

So according to this: https://www.aamc.org/download/161690/data/table17.pdf

Out of the 43919 applicants, 90% of them were in the range of a 22.7-33.7. But we don't know if these are highest scores, most recent scores or averages of all scores. Only 4391 applicants apply with less than or more than a score in that range.

 

[LizzyM]

SDN is a bit wonky for me tonight. I'll be back again soon... or later.

Here's hoping y'all aren't on Santa's naughty list.

 

[IL Pre Med]

There is too much grade inflation in grad school to put much value on grad school gpa.

Regarding grade inflation, is this true all across the board? I'm in professional school and many of my classmates are just barely pulling 3.0s, I'm in the top 10% of my class out of 200+ students. I can't imagine that holds no weight, makes me feel like my hard work is for nothing 🙁 Also I feel like my grad school is much more difficult than undergrad, I really thought that if I proved myself here I'd show adcoms I was ready for medicine.

 

[Sidereum]

This thread is great!

I have a question: How important is it to demonstrate some kind of leadership in undergrad? I know you touched on it in a post a few pages back, but I am curious as to how vital it is to compared to everything else. By the time I apply, I'll have years of volunteering (clinical and non-clinical), strong grades (hopefully >3.9), research, shadowing, interesting hobbies (not that I'm doing these to spice up my application, of course ), blah blah blah. However, I don't know if I should actively seeking a leadership position somewhere if I want a shot at some of the more competitive schools. In your opinion, would lack of leadership be a deal-breaker?

 

[yjj8817]

Better than what?

Would it be better than just relaxing and really not doing much other than just turning in apps? Would students be frowned upon when they don't do much during this summer?



And another question that is completely different....Does giving out food and hygienic supplies such as toothbrushes, soaps etc. at a free clinic to homeless people who receive free medical care from that free clinic count as clinical experience even if the activities I just described are not really medical?

 

[physiologist]

Hi LizzyM,

I'm a Canadian student applying to US schools with mediocre stats (3.5, 31R), and was fortunate enough to have received a couple interviews so far.

For my interview outfit, I sought the approval of my friends who are in medicine at my home university. I wore dark black jeans that looked like slacks and a grey button-down dress shirt. I thought the outfit was very professional, but when I arrived at the interview I was the only one not wearing a full tailored suit. I checked the premed101 forums (a.k.a. Canada's SDN) and found that while suits are a must in the US, standards are more lax in Canada, especially for women - i.e. my outfit would have been completely appropriate for a Canadian school.

I found out a week later that I was rejected, immediately upon the review of my file (instead of on the decision date, which is when >80% of interviewees hear back). This means there was a huge red flag in my interview. I felt the interview had went amazing, and I can't think of anything bad that I had done other than be the only one not wearing a suit.

My question is, how would you react if an applicant went to an interview at your school wearing my outfit. Do you think the outfit was the cause of my rejection? My interview was at one of the more "holistic" schools that falls on the lower end in terms of stats of accepted applicants.

 

[MelissaThompson]

Hi LizzyM,

I'm a Canadian student applying to US schools with mediocre stats (3.5, 31R), and was fortunate enough to have received a couple interviews so far.

For my interview outfit, I sought the approval of my friends who are in medicine at my home university. I wore dark black jeans that looked like slacks and a grey button-down dress shirt. I thought the outfit was very professional, but when I arrived at the interview I was the only one not wearing a full tailored suit. I checked the premed101 forums (a.k.a. Canada's SDN) and found that while suits are a must in the US, standards are more lax in Canada, especially for women - i.e. my outfit would have been completely appropriate for a Canadian school.

I found out a week later that I was rejected, immediately upon the review of my file (instead of on the decision date, which is when >80% of interviewees hear back). This means there was a huge red flag in my interview. I felt the interview had went amazing, and I can't think of anything that egregious that I had done other than be the only one not wearing a suit.

My question is, how would you react if an applicant went to an interview at your school wearing my outfit. Do you think the outfit was the cause of my rejection? My interview was at one of the more "holistic" schools that falls on the lower end in terms of stats of accepted applicants.

The issue was that you were International..

Good school would not judge an applicant based on his/her covers..

 

[Lucky Louie]

Here's my question: technically I don't have any shadowing experience by the time I apply in June 2013. Will that hurt me, or worse, automatically put in the rejection pile?

Some background: My uni tells all premeds that it's not unusual to have some holes in their application, so my advisor isn't concerned. I have wanted to get into medicine since forever. Was an EMT while in hs, and last year took a class through my university where I worked in a hospital and encouraged patients to voluntarily participate in research studies. Plus, I'll be taking a course that will insure me of getting shadowing experience, except I'm taking it in the fall 2013. How important is it to have everything "complete" by the time an application is written? Don't adcoms know these activities will continue?

 

[mcatsoon]

what does a short open-file interview where you are not asked many questions (instead, you are being sold on the school) really mean? Does it mean anything? Am I looking too much into it!

 

[physiologist]

The issue was that you were International..

Good school would not judge an applicant based on his/her covers..

I doubt it, the school specifically said it treats Canadians as OOS and they wouldn't interview me if they had any intention to reject me on the basis of my nationality.

 

[mcloaf]

The issue was that you were International..

Good school would not judge an applicant based on his/her covers..

Right...if you have a good application you can wear jorts and be fine.... Not true at all. Your attire reflects your professionalism, judgment, and how seriously you're taking your interview. Schools should and do pay attention to this.

 

[red doctober]

Right...if you have a good application you can wear jorts and be fine.... Not true at all. Your attire reflects your professionalism, judgment, and how seriously you're taking your interview. Schools should and do pay attention to this.

👍

 

[physiologist]

Right...if you have a good application you can wear jorts and be fine.... Not true at all. Your attire reflects your professionalism, judgment, and how seriously you're taking your interview. Schools should and do pay attention to this.

Speculation won't do much, let's see what LizzyM has to say.

Yeah, I feel really dumb about this. obviously, but I count myself as extremely lucky since the day after the rejection I got an interview at a top-tier school I adore - even though my GPA falls below their 10th percentile, I had decided to apply anyway since I love the school so much. Needless to say, the first thing I did after rejoicing this second chance was buy a suit.

 

[mcloaf]

Yeah, I feel really dumb about this. obviously, but I count myself as extremely lucky since the day after the rejection I got an interview at a top-tier school I adore - even though my GPA falls below their 10th percentile, I applied anyway since I love the school so much. Needless to say, the first thing I did after rejoicing this second chance was buy a suit.

My harshness was directed at her comment, not your situation. It's unfortunate that you got bad advice, perhaps a lesson about doing a little more research next time. 😛

Good luck at your interview!

 

[physiologist]

My harshness was directed at her comment, not your situation. It's unfortunate that you got bad advice, perhaps a lesson about doing a little more research next time. 😛

Good luck at your interview!

I did, and "dress professionally, suits for men and with ladies there is more leeway," was the least vague thing I found.

EDIT: I'm from Canada so google put Canadian results first, obviously. I watched this and decided to take after Nardeen. I felt that my outfit was acceptable because Nardeen's was way more casual than mine and I didn't own a suit so I didn't feel it was necessary to buy one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KL3KkJut7ys I guess I mistakenly assumed that Canadian cultural norms will mirror America's as they usually do.

Unfortunately I had no idea what "dress professionally actually meant and neither did the people around me. But we could lament the past until we're blue in the face, it's not going to change anything. All I can do now is just be grateful that I have been given a second chance - not only that but at a much better school - and dress to the nines and rock it.

 

[GrabSlamBoot]

Hey LizzyM,

Hope all is well. I was wondering if you have an opinion about the MMI interview format, and its use in helping an admissions committee choose their class as opposed to the traditional one on one interview?

Merry Christmas!

 

[MelissaThompson]

I did, and "dress professionally, suits for men and with ladies there is more leeway," was the least vague thing I found.

EDIT: I'm from Canada so google put Canadian results first, obviously. I watched this and decided to take after Nardeen. I felt that my outfit was acceptable because Nardeen's was way more casual than mine and I didn't own a suit so I didn't feel it was necessary to buy one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KL3KkJut7ys I guess I mistakenly assumed that Canadian cultural norms will mirror America's as they usually do.

Unfortunately I had no idea what "dress professionally actually meant and neither did the people around me. But we could lament the past until we're blue in the face, it's not going to change anything. All I can do now is just be grateful that I have been given a second chance - not only that but at a much better school - and dress to the nines and rock it.

I have never worn a suit at any of my med school interviews. Just a nice dress.

 

[physiologist]

I have never worn a suit at any of my med school interviews. Just a nice dress.

Did you get in anywhere?

 

[red doctober]

I have never worn a suit at any of my med school interviews. Just a nice dress.

I can't say that I remember any girls at my interviews wearing a full dress.

 

[MelissaThompson]

Did you get in anywhere?

Waiting to hear back from my 2 home states (Nebraska & Colorado)

Rejected from Temple though...

 

[Goobs]

I'm not very well versed in female interview attire, but on my trail this year I've seen an even mix of suits and business skirts with a blazer. I know theres a Men's interview clothing guide on the forums that really helped me when I was getting my attire ready, and I've seen the Women's one as well. If it's anything like the men's thread, then I'm sure it's chalk full of good advice on dress.

 

[E27]

Hi LizzyM,

If you received an application from a student who was recently accepted to PA school (in the previous application cycle), would this affect his/her chances of MD acceptance (i.e. would it be frowned upon for them to have given up a seat in PA school to pursue MD)?

 

[ScholarStud]

Hi Lizzy,

Do you think less of science courses taken during the summer because summer courses are generally considered "easier"?

A second question: If you generally like to see 30+ credit hours within the academic year, does that include summer sessions or only the normal school year?

Thank you!

 

[uphillBattle]

welp 🙁 ...Apologies for that. I should be more intelligent with posting in the forums.

I attached two very simple graphs on a semester by semester basis (stopped short of using MATLAB).

Please note: Semester 5 and beyond were upper division heavy. I also included math based business classes. In addition, where it says Job/class is where I became a Post-Grad and where I started full time work and took classes on the side.

Hope my bloated post from earlier didn't deter you from answering my question 😳

 

[PhysMatMan]

Is this "what are my chances" or a hypothetical question?

Maybe you want to ask, can a poor undergrad gpa be made up for by an excellent graduate school gpa. The answer to that question is "very rarely".

There is too much grade inflation in grad school to put much value on grad school gpa.


I'd get the 2 science, 1 non-science that most schools want. Then, if circumstances dictate, I'd get a letter from every PI I've worked with and a letter from my current employer (if I'm employed) and/or a physician for whom I have worked in a professional capacity.

So would you not recommend getting a letter from a tech who was enthusiastic about my volunteering?

 

[LizzyM]

Hi Lizzym,

I may have to reapply next year, I applied late this year with a 3.74 and a 34 (13-9-12). I kind of got senioritus and received straight B's this semester dropping my gpa to a mid 3.6. If I apply next cycle (and ace my next semester) with a 3.68-3.7 would I need to mention my one semester grade drop?

Thank you! =]

Every grade from every course you ever took and your gpa for every year is going to show (as you know if you've looked at your AMCAS application). Do you need to mention it beyond providing your transcripts? No.

 

[LizzyM]

How do you feel about gunners?

They don't do well in the team environment that is modern medicine. Collaboration rather than competition is what we seek.

 

[LizzyM]

Hi LizzyM,

A few more questions:

1) Is it possible (closer to common, than rare) to get into a top tier school if you do stellar in a post-bacc (no re-taking courses) and did average in HS and UG? (Assuming 6+ ECs, shadowing, clinical and all the Jazz McSchnazz)

Yes but the "doing stellar" can be tough.

2) Does the reputation of the post-bacc program have a lot of clout?

It might.

3) Is UCB Extension a favorably looked upon post bacc program by top tier schools?

Thank you & happy holidays!

I can't remember ever seeing anyone from that program.

 

[LizzyM]

Is verbal the most important component of the MCAT? It seems like PS, BS you can study for to a greater extent and Verbal you "either get it or you dont." Also, verbal seems to be the best indicator of critical thinking and usually high verbal scorers score well in PS/BS anyways. Verbal is the lowest section for almost all applicants I would assume.

The Powers that Be at my school tell me that as far as MCAT scores are concerned, total MCAT is the best predictor (better than verbal, better than biological, better than physical, better than Biological plus physical, etc) of success in medical school.