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Discover Your Odds of Getting into Medical School
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utariq said:
I have a dilemma. I am currently in application cycle but given my stats I havent had much success. Or so it seems to me. I am thinking its because of my MCAT score being more than three years old now and the fact that I haven't been in school for 2+ years. If I take the mcat again in the coming year, do well and show my grasp on the material, would that make me a better applicant? Still havent heard from the places where I interviewed thus far but I always plan for the worst. God forbid if I end up on a waitlist somewhere, may be retaking the MCAT can make the difference!? Any advice or constructive thoughts will be appreciated! Thank you!!
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You've been interviewed so it can't be that bad.... If you don't get in and you want to reapply, you will need to retake the MCAT so you should plan for that.

My other bit of advice would be to make the most of the time you have while you are not in school in terms of employment, service, etc
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pdxjazz said:
This question may be more applicable to lower ranked schools, but I will ask anyway just to hear your thoughts. Is there any chance for waitlisted apllicants to receive a scholarship/grant if you are well above those school's LizzyM score? it seems like schools are trending towards waitlisting more applicants and just wondering if it is worthwhile to stay on those lists with the hope of eventually receiving an acceptance and additionally some sort of financial incentive. Or are all the available funds given out early to those with outright acceptances with the hope of keeping them interested in your school, and anyone coming off the waitlists pays full price regardless?
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I have no idea.
 
What do you think is meaningful to bring into an interview?

Pictures of experiences? publication copies? new research/activity updates? I'd be interested in hearing of anything else you think might be helpful as well.
 
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This is not a question: why do I keep thinking of Ellen degeneres when I see your avatar lol
 
I've read all 14 pages and I wanted to say: thank you for taking the time to read and answer all of our questions. You've been a tremendous help to all of us on SDN.
 
fudGez14 said:
that's interesting. would you also include MIT and Princeton among this mix too, or other schools that actively practice grade deflation? i know this has been debated over and over, but do adcoms know that certain schools implement grade deflation policies, and so thus, applicants from those schools would have lower GPA's on average than the average applicant?
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The question was name 5 and I did. The two you listed would be mid-pack in my mind. Some schools (such as Emory) provide class rank in the LOR or otherwise put the student's academic performance in context and that helps. I must see applications from 200 schools in a given year and we get to know the ones we see frequently who are inflationary or deflationary. For others we have a database to consult.
 
LizzyM said:
The question was name 5 and I did. The two you listed would be mid-pack in my mind. Some schools (such as Emory) provide class rank in the LOR or otherwise put the student's academic performance in context and that helps. I must see applications from 200 schools in a given year and we get to know the ones we see frequently who are inflationary or deflationary. For others we have a database to consult.
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If you don't mind, can you name as many of the "top pack" grade deflationary schools as you can?
 
Kiting said:
What do you think is meaningful to bring into an interview?

Pictures of experiences? publication copies? new research/activity updates? I'd be interested in hearing of anything else you think might be helpful as well.
Click to expand...

It used to be that people would bring paper items to the interview such as reprints, and new resumes. Today, the file is entirely electronic and anything of that sort would have to be turned into the office staff, scanned and uploaded to become part of the official record. For that reason, I'd suggest sending an email about a week before the interview with an update if you think that there is anything important that an open file interviewer should have/know before interviewing you.
 
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Please respond on my gpa trend. I do poorer fall sem always but come back strong spring. might have something to do with getting too lazy over summer

Fall
frosh-3.2
soph-3.428
junior-3.625
Spring
frosh-3.7
soph-3.9
junior-TBA
 
LizzyM said:
You've been interviewed so it can't be that bad.... If you don't get in and you want to reapply, you will need to retake the MCAT so you should plan for that.

My other bit of advice would be to make the most of the time you have while you are not in school in terms of employment, service, etc
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Oh okay thats what I am planning on. Thanks! :D
 
Hi LizzyM

Thank you for spending time here, your help is priceless and sincere. My question concerns about overcoming a very low GPA. I know sometimes this isn't possible and we have to accept it, but I was wondering if you can offer some advice.

Let's say that someone graduated with 3.1 cum GPA and 2.9 Sci GPA over 130 hrs with ups and downs and a lot of Cs, but sincerely wants to go to a US Allopathic medical school. (He is just a normal graduate without anything amazing that would blow any admission person away.)

I was wondering if you can go into detail and specifics what would be the "perfect" way to overcome a low GPA like 3.0-3.13 spread over 4 years?

Thank you for taking the time to read and consider my request.
 
wlee43 said:
Please respond on my gpa trend. I do poorer fall sem always but come back strong spring. might have something to do with getting too lazy over summer

Fall
frosh-3.2
soph-3.428
junior-3.625
Spring
frosh-3.7
soph-3.9
junior-TBA
Click to expand...

We never look semester by semester at gpa, only year by year. You have an upward trend year by year. Keep working hard.
 
WizardofRoke said:
Hi LizzyM

Thank you for spending time here, your help is priceless and sincere. My question concerns about overcoming a very low GPA. I know sometimes this isn't possible and we have to accept it, but I was wondering if you can offer some advice.

Let's say that someone graduated with 3.1 cum GPA and 2.9 Sci GPA over 130 hrs with ups and downs and a lot of Cs, but sincerely wants to go to a US Allopathic medical school. (He is just a normal graduate without anything amazing that would blow any admission person away.)

I was wondering if you can go into detail and specifics what would be the "perfect" way to overcome a low GPA like 3.0-3.13 spread over 4 years?

Thank you for taking the time to read and consider my request.
Click to expand...

Post in the What are my Chances forum, they'll be more than willing to help you out.

An SMP or Post-Bacc would be your best bet.
 
WizardofRoke said:
Hi LizzyM

Thank you for spending time here, your help is priceless and sincere. My question concerns about overcoming a very low GPA. I know sometimes this isn't possible and we have to accept it, but I was wondering if you can offer some advice.

Let's say that someone graduated with 3.1 cum GPA and 2.9 Sci GPA over 130 hrs with ups and downs and a lot of Cs, but sincerely wants to go to a US Allopathic medical school. (He is just a normal graduate without anything amazing that would blow any admission person away.)

I was wondering if you can go into detail and specifics what would be the "perfect" way to overcome a low GPA like 3.0-3.13 spread over 4 years?

Thank you for taking the time to read and consider my request.
Click to expand...

You'd be best served by the WAMCs forum or the non-trad forum. I don't see enough applicants who have been in your situation to know what works or doesn't work.
 
Hello LizzyM, how are you?

I'll be eventually transferring to a 4 year over here soon and I've narrowed my choices down between a small private non profit university with a pre med committee (top ranked private school with some small research opportunities) and a huge public research extensive school with no premed committee, but its own medical school (Wayne State).

Would it be more beneficial in the long run to go to a smaller school with a committee and easier opportunities to build a rapport with faculty (thus getting strong LOR's)?

I feel like it's going to prove quite difficult to build up any sort of memorable experiences with science professors at Wayne State and I'm going to get stiffed with run-of-the-mill cookie cutter LOR's even if I achieve great grades. Yet the research and other premed related opportunities at Wayne State seem endless. I'm just curious, thanks.
 
LizzyM said:
You'd be best served by the WAMCs forum or the non-trad forum. I don't see enough applicants who have been in your situation to know what works or doesn't work.
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Hi. Thank you for your time and effort. You don't have to answer if you are not comfortable and I know it doesn't occur very often, but the ones who are interviewed and accepted at this range (3.0-3.1) at your school or ones at this level. Rarely, I heard people who had a very poor undergraduate, but they overcame it and ended at the most selective schools/programs.

I was wondering if you can tell us what did those applicants (did anything/have in common) to convince the skeptics? I know it is a lot to ask so it is ok if there is no good answer. :xf: I won't ask any more question if there is no good answer. I don't mind if the information seems discouraging. I know I can't go back and change everything, but I can always go forward. So any information that might help would be beyond awesome.
 
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WizardofRoke said:
Hi. Thank you for your time and effort. You don't have to answer if you are not comfortable and I know it doesn't occur very often, but the ones who are interviewed and accepted at this range (3.0-3.1) at your school or ones at this level. Rarely, I heard people who had a very poor undergraduate, but they overcame it and ended at the most selective schools/programs.

I was wondering if you can tell us what did those applicants did (anything/have in common) to convince the skeptics? I know it is a lot to ask so it is ok if there is no good answer. :xf: I won't ask any more question if there is no good answer. I don't mind if the information seems discouraging. As T.R. said, "Its better to know where we stand and take action rather than not knowing and living in a fantasy."
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The only ones I remember were lucky to have been born into a situation that played a part in their admission. Don't shoot me, I'm only the messenger. I'd say this accounts for about 1% of admissions to top tier schools, or less.
 
Drogo said:
Hello LizzyM, how are you?

I'll be eventually transferring to a 4 year over here soon and I've narrowed my choices down between a small private non profit university with a pre med committee (top ranked private school with some small research opportunities) and a huge public research extensive school with no premed committee, but its own medical school (Wayne State).

Would it be more beneficial in the long run to go to a smaller school with a committee and easier opportunities to build a rapport with faculty (thus getting strong LOR's)?

I feel like it's going to prove quite difficult to build up any sort of memorable experiences with science professors at Wayne State and I'm going to get stiffed with run-of-the-mill cookie cutter LOR's even if I achieve great grades. Yet the research and other premed related opportunities at Wayne State seem endless. I'm just curious, thanks.
Click to expand...

Deciding which undergrad school is the best fit for you is a very personal decision and one only you can make for yourself. You need to identify what you value and how each school fits with what you are looking for in a school.
 
LizzyM said:
The only ones I remember were lucky to have been born into a situation that played a part in their admission. Don't shoot me, I'm only the messenger. I'd say this accounts for about 1% of admissions to top tier schools, or less.
Click to expand...

Dear LizzyM,

i would really appreciate your clarification on this. specifically, when you mention that these students "were born into a situation that played a part in their admission", would being a disadvantaged applicant (but not URM) be an example of these situation?

Additionally, another question that I have is in regards to how an adcom at a top tier generally views an academic record. Specifically, my academic record has classes from a variety of tiers ( a city school-taken after undergrad in a do-it-yourself -postbac, a prestigious private --went for undergrad--and 2 ivy leagues --did a do-it-yourself postbac by taking science and philosophy classe a la carte.)

My question for this is, would adcoms at a top tier/other med schools view this as a negative on my application, even though I took all my prereqs/many of my upper division at my home institution (the prestigious private) or the ivy leagues in the post bac while only some upper division sciences at the city school--i took it here because they offered an interesting course/was a lot less expensive than the private, not because i was trying to avoid these classes at my undergrad--should I provide an explanation for this on my application, especially since I am applying as a disadvantaged applicant/am from a low-income background?

Thank you once again. I hope your holidays are going well!
 
polyploidy516 said:
Dear LizzyM,

i would really appreciate your clarification on this. specifically, when you mention that these students "were born into a situation that played a part in their admission", would being a disadvantaged applicant (but not URM) be an example of these situation?

Additionally, another question that I have is in regards to how an adcom at a top tier generally views an academic record. Specifically, my academic record has classes from a variety of tiers ( a city school-taken after undergrad in a do-it-yourself -postbac, a prestigious private --went for undergrad--and 2 ivy leagues --did a do-it-yourself postbac by taking science and philosophy classe a la carte.)

My question for this is, would adcoms at a top tier/other med schools view this as a negative on my application, even though I took all my prereqs/many of my upper division at my home institution (the prestigious private) or the ivy leagues in the post bac while only some upper division sciences at the city school--i took it here because they offered an interesting course/was a lot less expensive than the private, not because i was trying to avoid these classes at my undergrad--should I provide an explanation for this on my application, especially since I am applying as a disadvantaged applicant/am from a low-income background?

Thank you once again. I hope your holidays are going well!
Click to expand...

I was talking about URM and "connected" applicants are related in one way or another to a high ranking person in the university or in politics. This in no way is meant to suggest that all URM and connected applicants are minimally qualified.

The rest of your question is too vague and too close to "what are my chances". Your record is what it is, at this point you need to apply and see what happens while preparing for an alternate career if medicine ends up being out of the question.
 
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I'm curious, I know the adcom mainly consists of volunteers but does the admissions office depend on secondary fees to pay for their work?
 
Do you think doing clinical research for the upenn med school will help my chances of getting an interview if my stats are in their lowest percentile? If your school has positions like that how much does it help with employment at a med school.
 
Reading through this entire thread is very enlightening. In advance, I appreciate any feedback you may have on my question.

As a person in the work force several years removed from a poor undergraduate GPA, what would impress upon you the fact that I am able to handle the workload of a medical school curriculum? In former posts you mention that you don't really evaluate many candidates with low grades (low enough that grad school or post bacc work is necessary), but I'd appreciate if you played along with the thought experiment.

For the past 2 years, I have worked 40 hours a week and have taken 12-14 credit hours per semester of upper division (soon to be graduate level) BCPM classes with ~3.9. Volunteering occupies 8 hours a week. If my MCAT, ECs and LOR are above average for your school, what does this schedule say to you? And what changes to the schedule would say to you, "This applicant has an atrocious undergraduate record that screams lack of responsibility and study skills, but considering this applicant's past 2 years, this applicant has established the ability to adequately handle my school's curriculum and succeed as a physician."
 
saveourpens said:
I'm curious, I know the adcom mainly consists of volunteers but does the admissions office depend on secondary fees to pay for their work?
Click to expand...

I'm sure it varies. At my school, the central administration collects the revenue and covers the budget for the admissions office. Each year the admissions office administration has to prepare and justify the budget for the coming academic year. There is no big financial incentive for the admissions office to greatly increase the number of applicants aside from wanting to have the best applicants from which to choose a class.

Some schools might want to inflate the number of applicants in order to appear highly selective.

What is counterintuitive is that one of the schools with a very high seconary fee also gets more applications than (almost?) any other school.

If you are wondering what goes into the budget if the adcom is volunteer, here it is: staff wages and benefits. telephone, computer hardware & software, space (every group within a school "pays" for the office space occupied which also covers cleaning crews, lavatories, utilities, etc), materials and food provided on interview day, items used to promote the school at campus visits and second look visits. The switch from paper applications to electronic has saved us money on office supplies but has greatly increased the cost of electronic interface (web design, and database development).
 
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KLycos said:
Do you think doing clinical research for the upenn med school will help my chances of getting an interview if my stats are in their lowest percentile? If your school has positions like that how much does it help with employment at a med school.
Click to expand...

It sounds like you are asking, "will being employed by a medical school help my chances of being admitted at that school if my stats are in the lowest 10% for that school?"

I'd say that the odds are not good and that is based on seeing some applicants get interviewed and admitted and some being passed over. Generally, you need a LizzyM score that is within 3 points of the school's score to have a decent shot. For sure, you should have a LOR from your employer from that school.
 
flashnotfire said:
Reading through this entire thread is very enlightening. In advance, I appreciate any feedback you may have on my question.

As a person in the work force several years removed from a poor undergraduate GPA, what would impress upon you the fact that I am able to handle the workload of a medical school curriculum? In former posts you mention that you don't really evaluate many candidates with low grades (low enough that grad school or post bacc work is necessary), but I'd appreciate if you played along with the thought experiment.

For the past 2 years, I have worked 40 hours a week and have taken 12-14 credit hours per semester of upper division (soon to be graduate level) BCPM classes with ~3.9. Volunteering occupies 8 hours a week. If my MCAT, ECs and LOR are above average for your school, what does this schedule say to you? And what changes to the schedule would say to you, "This applicant has an atrocious undergraduate record that screams lack of responsibility and study skills, but considering this applicant's past 2 years, this applicant has established the ability to adequately handle my school's curriculum and succeed as a physician."
Click to expand...

It sounds like you've done a good job of rehabilitating your academic record in a way that will reassure an adcom that you can handle the workload of med school. Good luck!
 
LizzyM: As an undergraduate at a school with subpar pre-med advising, I'd like to thank you for being a fantastic (legendary) resource.

I'll try not to make this a chances post...
I'm a junior at one of the better UC's with a decent amount of non-bioscience research and volunteer work (directly with patients) under my belt but lack the laundry list of EC's and leadership experience that others seem to have. Instead, much of my work ethic goes towards babying my GPA (3.95+ in biomedical engineering) and free time is spent casually with dance + friends.

So I guess my question is, can stats that are well above a med schools average buffer a lack of crazy EC's? Also, can interviews be enough evidence that an applicant isn't a cookie-cutter robot?

SDN - where optimism meets reality and then bounces.

-- FDAapproved (*first post =])

PS. Yeahsorry. That definitely smells like a chances post. Hopefully, you'll be able to read past that and elaborate on the variety of applications that come by your desk.
 
FDAapproved said:
LizzyM: As an undergraduate at a school with subpar pre-med advising, I'd like to thank you for being a fantastic (legendary) resource.

I'll try not to make this a chances post...
I'm a junior at one of the better UC's with a decent amount of non-bioscience research and volunteer work (directly with patients) under my belt but lack the laundry list of EC's and leadership experience that others seem to have. Instead, much of my work ethic goes towards babying my GPA (3.95+ in biomedical engineering) and free time is spent casually with dance + friends.

So I guess my question is, can stats that are well above a med schools average buffer a lack of crazy EC's? Also, can interviews be enough evidence that an applicant isn't a cookie-cutter robot?

SDN - where optimism meets reality and then bounces.

-- FDAapproved (*first post =])

PS. Yeahsorry. That definitely smells like a chances post. Hopefully, you'll be able to read past that and elaborate on the variety of applications that come by your desk.
Click to expand...

Depending on how many experiences you describe on your application, you could be penalized for spending too much of your time babying your gpa and the interviews will go to applicants with gpa: 3.70-3.89 and more time spent in service, research and even just organized "fun". You can list "dance" as a hobby if you are willing to talk about it during an interview.

Adcoms are looking for "well rounded" applicants and spending too much time on your gpa to the detriment of growing in other ways will make you a less than optimal candidate. :oops: There is still time to change your ways.
 
Hi LizzyM, I've been curious for a long time about the following. With your experience and all the applicants you've seen over the years maybe you could shed some light on this scenario.
If a student has preformed poorly in Bio (Bs)/Chem (Cs) and then done better in Orgo/Physics (B+/A), and has an upward trend for at-least 3 semesters and a mcat score of at-least 33, does that compensate for a low GPA earned during the first 3 semesters? Low gpa being defined as under 3.5. What I am trying to see is how much does an upward trend compensate for.

Now it'd like to take a second to thank you for all the wealth of information you've shared with me and thousands of other students here, thank you so much.
 
Godric said:
Hi LizzyM, I've been curious for a long time about the following. With your experience and all the applicants you've seen over the years maybe you could shed some light on this scenario.
If a student has preformed poorly in Bio (Bs)/Chem (Cs) and then done better in Orgo/Physics (B+/A), and has an upward trend for at-least 3 semesters and a mcat score of at-least 33, does that compensate for a low GPA earned during the first 3 semesters? Low gpa being defined as under 3.5. What I am trying to see is how much does an upward trend compensate for.

Now it'd like to take a second to thank you for all the wealth of information you've shared with me and thousands of other students here, thank you so much.
Click to expand...

No. Earning B, C, B+, A for the required courses averages out to ~3.08 in those prereqs. That's considered very weak preparation in the pre-reqs.

When we give :thumbup: for an upward trend we are usually looking at 3.5, 3.7, 3.9 over three academic years.
 
Hi Lizzy, as my peers have previously said, I would like to thank you for the advice that you have given all of us.
I was wondering if an applicant significantly(2.6) first quarter but has an upward trend from then on graduating with a gpa of higher than the average and is also a urm. Can he/she still be competitive to top tier. Hope this isnt too close to what are my chances. Thanks again.
 
LizzyM said:
Your only concern should be the school you are attending or those you have attended.
Click to expand...

Is Yale considered a school with grade inflation? Slash, will may grades be looked at positively or negatively because of my school?
 
Hi LizzyM! My next question is pretty specific so if you don't recall then that's fine. But since you have mentioned a few universities by name, I'd like to know.

Do you consider applicants from USC to be at a decently rigorous university, or is the school still considered to be a party school in the committees eyes despite an increase to the 23rd rank in US News. How would you compare it to UCLA :p?

Thanks!! =]
 
Hey LizzyM thanks so much for doing this!

The past few summers I have been basically babysitting my grandmother and
another lady, and both have Alzheimer's disease. They live in a home, and I basically just check them out and take care of them for the day . I'm pretty sure this is clinical experience, but does it matter that one of these ladies is related to me!?
 
LizzyM said:
It sounds like you are asking, "will being employed by a medical school help my chances of being admitted at that school if my stats are in the lowest 10% for that school?"

I'd say that the odds are not good and that is based on seeing some applicants get interviewed and admitted and some being passed over. Generally, you need a LizzyM score that is within 3 points of the school's score to have a decent shot. For sure, you should have a LOR from your employer from that school.
Click to expand...

Can you please re-list what the LizzyM scores are for each school or tell me where I can find them? I know to calculate my LizzyM score I multiple my GPA by 10 and add my MCAT, but I want to compare it to schools scores. Thanks!
 
mybubbles627 said:
Can you please re-list what the LizzyM scores are for each school or tell me where I can find them? I know to calculate my LizzyM score I multiple my GPA by 10 and add my MCAT, but I want to compare it to schools scores. Thanks!
Click to expand...

You calculate school LizzyM scores the same way you calculate a LizzyM score for yourself.
 
what is your favorite question to ask during an interview?
 
Dbate said:
Is Yale considered a school with grade inflation? Slash, will may grades be looked at positively or negatively because of my school?
Click to expand...

I just ran across an article that stated Yale's average GPA was a 3.51 in 2008. Harvard 3.45 in 2008 as well. Boston was a 3.04, Wisconsin 3.25, Minnesota 3.14.

Lowest GPA winners include Reed College (as stated by LizzyM), Swarthmore College (this college deserves so much recognition for its rigorous curriculum - their average GPA is 2 something...yikes), etc.

There are some interesting articles on this...google it.
 
I'd rather compete with state school kids with an average at 3.1 then yale kids with an average at 3.5 lol
 
DrCaliBoy said:
Hi Lizzy, as my peers have previously said, I would like to thank you for the advice that you have given all of us.
I was wondering if an applicant significantly(2.6) first quarter but has an upward trend from then on graduating with a gpa of higher than the average and is also a urm. Can he/she still be competitive to top tier. Hope this isnt too close to what are my chances. Thanks again.
Click to expand...

To be competitive for the top tier, you need a LizzyM score (gpa(10)+MCAT) of 70 or higher. In addition, you should have experiences involving engagement with your community through service, and cultural or religious organizations in addition to clinical and research experiences. Your first quarter contributes just 12% of your total gpa so it is possible to make significant improvement in the years ahead. Figure out what went wrong and change your ways before you do damage to your gpa that can not be repaired.
 
mybubbles627 said:
Can you please re-list what the LizzyM scores are for each school or tell me where I can find them? I know to calculate my LizzyM score I multiple my GPA by 10 and add my MCAT, but I want to compare it to schools scores. Thanks!
Click to expand...

You go to the school's website and look around for the average MCAT and gpa for matriculants or you buy access to the AAMC's database called "Medical School Admission Requriements" (MSAR). Or you go to your school's pre-med advisory office or your school library and see if they have a copy of the 2010-2011 MSAR (blue cover) which is far easier to use than the most recent edition.

Someone might be so kind as to direct you to an excel file that was constructed earlier this year using publically available sources.
 
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