Astro Career Center and "A Roadmap for Recruiting Medical Students into Radiation Oncology during a Period of Waning Interest"

[deleted1111261]

Update of the current Astro Career Center Job posting on 02/09/2022 (done via Astro Member search):

Most jobs ever posted. The #38 listing sounds like a sweet deal.

1) Rad Onc community academics with University of North Carolina (Eden, NC).
2) Uro Rads with Solaris Health Partners, Salary $400 to $500K (Chicago Ridge and Joliet, IL).
3) Rad Onc private practice with Lexington Clinic, $150k signing bonus. (Lexington, KY).
4) Rad Onc community academics with Oregon Health and Science University (Roseburg, OR).
5) Rad Onc employed with Genesis Care (Hefner Pointe and Ponca City, OK).
6) Rad Onc employed with Methodist Health System (Omaha, NE).
7) Rad Onc employed with Guthrie Clinic (Sayre, PA).
8) Rac Onc academics with Weil Cornel (New York, NY).
9) Rad Onc employed with Saint Joseph Medical Group (Bardstown, KY).
10) Rad Onc community academics with University of Michigan (Grand Rapids, MI).
11) Rad Onc community academics with University of Maryland (Baltimore, MD).
12) Rad Onc community academics with University of Nebraska (Sioux City, IA).
13) Rad Onc academics with University of Missouri (Columbia, MO).
14) Rad Onc employed with Avera Medical Group (Marshall, MN).
15) Rad Onc employed with Avera Medical Group (Spencer, IA).
16) Rad Onc academics with City of Hope “diversity focus” (Duarte, CA).
17) Rad Onc private practice with West Michigan Cancer Center (Kalamazoo, MI).
18) Rad Onc private practice with Cancer Care Group (Indianapolis, IA).
19) Rad Onc employed with Bassett Healthcare Network (Cooperstown, NY).
20) Rad Onc employed with WellSpan Health (York, PA).
21) Rad Onc community academics with Cleveland Clinic (Stuart, FL).
22) Rad Onc employed with WellSpan Health (Chambersburg, PA).
23) Rad Onc academics with Virginia Commonwealth University (Richmond, VA).
24) Rad Onc academics with Indiana University (Indianapolis, IN).
25) Rad Onc employed with Guam Regional Medical City (Dededo, Guam).
26) Rad Onc private practice with Oncologic Specialists (Mount Clemens, MI).
27) Rad Onc academics with University of Tennessee Health Science Center (Memphis, TN).
28) Rad Onc private practice with Minneapolis Radiation Oncology (Minneapolis, MN).
29) Rad Onc private practice with Radiation Oncology Associates of Northern Virginia (Fairfax, VA).
30) Rad Onc private practice with Radiation Oncology Associates (Arlington Heights, IL).
31) Rad Onc academics with University of New Mexico (Albuquerque, NM).
32) Rad Onc academics with Cedars-Sinai (Los Angeles, CA).
33) Rad Onc private practice with MultiCare Rockwood Clinic (Spokane, WA).
34) Rad Onc employed with Geisinger (Wilkes-Barre, PA).
35) Rad Onc community academics with UPenn (Lancaster, PA).
36) Rad Onc private practice with Pottstown Regional Radiation Oncology, Salary $350-400k, partnership track, 7 weeks of vacation and participation in a pension plan. (Pottstown and Phoenixville, PA).
37) Rad Onc employed with Southern Ohio Medical Center, Salary $584k (Portsmouth, OH).
38) Rad Onc employed with Elevate Healthcare Solutions, Base Salary $650k with $800k potential, $50K sign on bonus, $100k loan forgiveness (Show Low, AZ).
39) Rad Onc academics with the University of Pennsylvania (Philadelphia, PA).
40) Rad Onc employed with Sutter Medical Group (Auburn, CA).
41) Rad Onc employed with AdventHealth Medical Group (Palm Coast, FL).
42) Rad Onc private practice with Tacoma/Valley Radiation Oncology (Washington Peninsula, WA).
43) Rad Onc private practice with Sand Lake Cancer Center (Orlando, FL).
44) Rad Onc private practice with Michiana Hematology Oncology (Mishawaka, IN).
45) Rad Onc employed with Covenant Health (Morristown, TN).
46) Rad Onc employed with Aspirus Health (Wausau, WI).
47) Rad Onc private practice with Washington Permanente Medical Group (Seattle, WA).
48) Rad Onc employed with US Oncology (Covington, GA).
49) Rad Onc employed with US Oncology (Prescott Valley, AZ).
50) Rad Onc private practice with Advocate Radiation Oncology (West Palm Beach, FL).
51) Rad Onc employed with Marshfield Clinic Health System (Eau Claire, WI).
52) Rad Onc employed with WellSpan Health (Chambersburg, PA).
53) Rad Onc employed with Benefis Health System (Great Falls, MT).
54) Rad Onc employed with South Florida Proton Center (Delray Beach, FL).
55) Rad Onc employed with Allegheny Health Network (Pittsburgh, PA).
56) Rad Onc employed with Ascension's Our Lady of Lourdes Memorial Hospital (Binghamton, NY).
57) Rad Onc employed with Kadlec Clinic (Kennewick, WA).
58) Rad Onc private practice with Southern Rad Onc (Carrollton, AL).
59) Rad Onc private practice with MMORA - Herbert Herman Cancer Center (Lansing, MI).
60) Rad Onc academics University of Kentucky (Lexington, KY).
61) Rad Onc community academics with UC San Diego (El Centro, CA).
62) Rad Onc academics with Wake Forest (Winston Salem, NC).

Honestly, not a terrible list. Mostly employed hospital gigs, paying median for probably not terrible hard work.

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[fiji128]

The rad onc job market is probably the best its been in 5 years based off of job postings. As I've said before I think this has to do with the wave of Covid era retirements rather then any underlying increasing demand/revenue for rad onc.

The reason for posting these ads is generate some reference points (yes I know highly imperfect) for what the job market is doing/trending and to give those med students considering the specialty what the jobs offerings look like.

 

[deleted1116990]

Show Low is really, really hard to recruit for. It’s basically a different planet. Rural AZ is not like rural .. MI or MD. It is isolated and challenging. I bet you could set up something where you can earn $1m easily.

You would be surprised how many of these ultra-rural, like still using your 56k dial-up on your AOL CD-ROM rural, places refuse to budge from median MGMA offers with average PTO and M-F on site.

I'd be shocked if they would cover private plane for rad onc. That's specialty surgeon level benefit dude. Also maybe not the best idea.

 

[TheWallnerus]

The rad onc job market is probably the best its been in 5 years based off of job postings. As I've said before I think this has to do with the wave of Covid era retirements rather then any underlying increasing demand/revenue for rad onc.

The reason for posting these ads is generate some reference points (yes I know highly imperfect) for what the job market is doing/trending.

The Morristown TN job is a retiring MD. Don't know how many on this list fit that bill but it's a few. The Morristown TN site will be in for a shock if they get a new grad who comes in guns blazing with 3 week breast and 4 to 5 week prostate and single fraction bone mets. Their on-beam numbers will get cut in half. They should pray to replace boomer w/ boomer

 

[TheWallnerus]

The rad onc job market is probably the best its been in 5 years based off of job postings. As I've said before I think this has to do with the wave of Covid era retirements rather then any underlying increasing demand/revenue for rad onc.

The reason for posting these ads is generate some reference points (yes I know highly imperfect) for what the job market is doing/trending and to give those med students considering the specialty what the jobs offerings look like.

I agree this is a record! It fully meets the definition of "non-depressing" IMHO.

 

[metallica81788]

Does the group think that this is a temporary calm before the storm? Or maybe a trend to more stable times.

Is it "make your lateral move now or forever hold your peace" time?

 

[fiji128]

Does the group think that this is a temporary calm before the storm? Or maybe a trend to more stable times.

Is it "make your lateral move now or forever hold your peace" time?

In my opinion its, "make your lateral move now or forever hold your peace" time.

 

[jondunn]

its a good time for people to make non-lateral moves too. this is a decent time to slide up

 

[TheWallnerus]

its a good time for people to make non-lateral moves too. this is a decent time to slide up

sliding up & in between...

 

[deleted1111261]

its a good time for people to make non-lateral moves too. this is a decent time to slide up

There is a directorship opening in the pacific NW 😝

 

[jondunn]

The rad onc job market is probably the best its been in 5 years based off of job postings.

is this the consensus of the board?

 

[TheWallnerus]

is this the consensus of the board?

I think if around Sept 2000 everyone stopped wearing masks and no one wanted to get vaccinated and the COVID death rate was really low based on best data, I would feel the same way about this data: I don't fully understand it, but the data is the data.

There are disfavorable (falling RT utilization, decreasing ca incidences, hypofx, oversupply, reimbursements, supervision) and favorable (lack of 100% hypofx utilization, RO attrition, "richness through technology," rising post-COVID need for RT, ignoring supervision relaxation) effects on the RO job market. We can safely say the disfavorable is not beating the favorable right now.

The favorable needs to keep working because the disfavorable has good room for continued growth.

 

[Lamount]

I think if around Sept 2000 everyone stopped wearing masks and no one wanted to get vaccinated and the COVID death rate was really low based on best data, I would feel the same way about this data: I don't fully understand it, but the data is the data.

There are disfavorable (falling RT utilization, decreasing ca incidences, hypofx, oversupply, reimbursements, supervision) and favorable (lack of 100% hypofx utilization, RO attrition, "richness through technology," rising post-COVID need for RT, ignoring supervision relaxation) effects on the RO job market. We can safely say the disfavorable is not beating the favorable right now.

The favorable needs to keep working because the disfavorable has good room for continued growth.

Another phenomenon I have encountered locally is that our hospital loves us right now... our department kept them in the green throughout the pandemic, helping to stave off layoffs and pay cuts in other departments. As we have stayed busy, we have been consistently hiring and we are getting little -if any- push back on approvals for new positions.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

the thing i dont think we can fully understand is if these jobs are all acrually real? Have they been filled? Is there a candidate already? We all remember applying to jobs years ago and being told job was filled despite being recently posted and reposted. Jobs that are posted and do not respond and never get back. I don’t know the percentage of true jobs for MOST.
Im not sure the job market is “good” based on this but i also don’t know for sure it is bad. You can talk to people and hear vastly different experiences. I just wish we had actual data to look at…

 

[metallica81788]

Another phenomenon I have encountered locally is that our hospital loves us right now... our department kept them in the green throughout the pandemic, helping to stave off layoffs and pay cuts in other departments. As we have stayed busy, we have been consistently hiring and we are getting little -if any- push back on approvals for new positions.

My hospital recognizes that our department kept them in green but keeps emphasizing how "we did you a favor while your department supported the dermatologists and orthopedists who weren't doing anything but everyone was still paid so suck it up" essentially trying to treat all doctors as equals when it doesn't work that way

 

[communitydoc13]

We all remember applying to jobs years ago and being told job was filled despite being recently posted and reposted

I suspect the job market really is a little better than last year.

I was thinking of the Brian Flores situation (the NFL coach called accidentally (wrong Brian) by Belichick to say he got the job with Giants when he hadn't yet been interviewed) recently.

Made me think back to going to an academic place to interview on-site (had prior ASTRO interview). Chair was not there; lead physicist pans my CV; they don't feed me lunch, and then I drive 2 hours to satellite where I'd be working and hardly anybody there. Needless to say, job was already spoken for but they were required to bring in a certain number of applicants.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

I suspect the job market really is a little better than last year.

I was thinking of the Brian Flores situation (the NFL coach called accidentally (wrong Brian) by Belichick to say he got the job with Giants when he hadn't yet been interviewed) recently.

Made me think back to going to an academic place to interview on-site (had prior ASTRO interview). Chair was not there; lead physicist pans my CV; they don't feed me lunch, and then I drive 2 hours to satellite where I'd be working and hardly anybody there. Needless to say, job was already spoken for but they were required to bring in a certain number of applicants.

I had same experience years ago as well. Second look offered with phone calls and emails indicating interest and then was suddenly ghosted without explanation. Another place had me for a two day interview with visit of main site and satellites and a limo and a driver with a bowtie, very interested supposedly and ghosted too. Its a weird time as an applicant. A workforce survey would be great with pre and post surveys to account for the reality after starting a job and evaluating satisfaction.

I think two things can be true at same time. Ive spoken to people who say job market great many high paying offers and great apllicants who have 1-2 offers applying everywhere. Its hard to make sense of our job market….

 

[metallica81788]

Another place had me for a two day interview with visit of main site and satellites and a limo and a driver with a bowtie, very interested supposedly and ghosted too.

Are you sure you weren't a patient at Cancer Treatment Centers of America?

 

[thecarbonionangle]

Are you sure you weren't a patient at Cancer Treatment Centers of America?

No i never interviewed there but i did hear they closed the Tulsa site and i wonder what happened to that whole department. Goes to show you how fickle some of these jobs are. They posted for a job a few years ago, now the site is closed.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

On another note i had three specific (had a total of 15 i think) interviews at ASTRO which are pertinent among many which did not lead anywhere and were a waste of time. One was supposedly in a large city. I went back and looked at ad and thats what it said. When i arrived the partners told me the job had “just been filled” but they did have an opening three hours away. I shook their hand and walked out.

One place interviewed me at ASTRO and reached our after saying they really liked me and would like to proceed then was suddenly told job was “just filled” and fizzled.

Another place had me go to a brunch and i was told they actually also just filled.

So why did these places post? Very odd. I know people who had same experience.

Of course i had positive experiences and I have a job. Pluses and minuses.

My point is that its hard to say anything really from these job postings unless people have direct knowledge of the jobs.

 

[deleted1111261]

I think the proportion of real jobs vs fake jobs is probably constant, and what Ms Carbon has experienced is something a lot of us experienced in the last 5+ years. Doesn’t make it right. But, I think sheer number of employed hospital positions available is better than years past. These used to be so-so jobs. Now, they are good jobs (median salary, 15ish on beam, 5-6 weeks off, maybe some admin time).

 

[deleted1111261]

Is it all of medicine or just RO with the ghosting / odd behavior after conversations and interviews. I’ve twice been told “we are going to be sending an offer letter” verbally by people high up in organization and it didn’t come. I’ve had interviewers cancel last minute. I would never do any of that, but if it is happening to me, than it must be happening to others.

 

[TheWallnerus]

Rad onc is definitely the field of medicine with the most ghostings and "sorry for the inconvenience but we filled the spot" experiences. I don't need a study for that! It's happened to me tons of times, but it has let me visit some nice cities for free and get some SkyMiles. Find me a rad onc that didn't experience this and I'll find you a guy whose dad gave him an RT center.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

Is it all of medicine or just RO with the ghosting / odd behavior after conversations and interviews. I’ve twice been told “we are going to be sending an offer letter” verbally by people high up in organization and it didn’t come. I’ve had interviewers cancel last minute. I would never do any of that, but if it is happening to me, than it must be happening to others.

I hear ya playa! Lol this also happened to me. One big academic cancer centre had me go through an entire process, multiple interviews on phone with chiefs then was offered another round at main site. Twice the interview day was cancelled last second without any explanation and rescheduled. Ultimately was ghosted after the second time. To this day the behaviour still bothers me. Is this how we treat our colleagues? What an odd field folks.

 

[deleted941485]

I hear ya playa! Lol this also happened to me. One big academic cancer centre had me go through an entire process, multiple interviews on phone with chiefs then was offered another round at main site. Twice the interview day was cancelled last second without any explanation and rescheduled. Ultimately was ghosted after the second time. To this day the behaviour still bothers me. Is this how we treat our colleagues? What an odd field folks.

I wonder if it’s the same with surg subs.

 

[RickyScott]

I wonder if it’s the same with surg subs.

No, nothing like us.

 

[deleted941485]

No, nothing like us.

Oh that’s right because it’s not like they can just pick from a pile of 50 ****ing resumes from people that should have never been RO in the first place.

 

[TheWallnerus]

The average resident, overall, receives something in the neighborhood of 20-30 job offers.

Rad onc residents: clearly, we are not average.

 

[fiji128]

is this the consensus of the board?

I'd say at the moment (meaning past few months) the rad onc job market appears to be stronger then it has been at anytime in past five years. However, I do think this will be "transitory" in nature.

Also, if compared to other similarly sized specialties our job market would still be considered very weak.

 

[deleted941485]

I'd say at the moment (meaning past few months) the job market appears to stronger then it has been at anytime in past five years. However, I do think this will be "transitory" in nature.

Has more to do with dying/retiring than expansion or actual need. All these RT programs that are supposedly expanding are either opening a proton center or just taking over services from another practice

 

[RickyScott]

Has more to do with dying/retiring than expansion or actual need. All these RT programs that are supposedly expanding are either opening a proton center or just taking over services from another practice

also the number of pts per attending is dropping. 15 years ago ACR surery averages were 250-275 and now they are 200-255 new pts/per year

 

[deleted941485]

also the number of pts per attending is dropping. 15 years ago ACR surery averages were 250-275 and now they are 200-255 new pts/per year

Sounds about right. Not sure if total numbers have dropped off but certainly more attendings out there. Lots of overstaffed departments to be sure. Prime for cutting really.

 

[medgator]

Are you sure you weren't a patient at City of Hope

Ftfy...

 

[deleted1111261]

Sounds about right. Not sure if total numbers have dropped off but certainly more attendings out there. Lots of overstaffed departments to be sure. Prime for cutting really.

If the population of the US is slightly going up, and the number of patients in total is slightly go up, whyyyyy would the number of patients treated by a doc go down?

It can’t be that there are too many doctors ??? Or can it?

 

[deleted941485]

If the population of the US is slightly going up, and the number of patients in total is slightly go up, whyyyyy would the number of patients treated by a doc go down?

It can’t be that there are too many doctors ??? Or can it?

I think we’re gonna need a few MD PhDs who love rad onc to apply and post retrospective reviews using cool statistics over a period of 5-10 years and present it at major conferences in order to really get a consensus.

God get me the **** out of this

 

[TheWallnerus]

If the population of the US is slightly going up, and the number of patients in total is slightly go up, whyyyyy would the number of patients treated by a doc go down?

It can’t be that there are too many doctors ??? Or can it?

You "published" a thing that cited references where the total radiation patients in America were 1.2m in 2000, and 1m in 2020. If people believe "references."

 

[deleted941485]

You "published" a thing that cited references where the total radiation patients in America were 1.2m in 2000, and 1m in 2020. If people believe "references."

We dropped 200k patients in 20 years!

What was this lymphoma? Peds? Some GI. All the prostates that go to the OR now?

 

[deleted1116990]

Just received an email today with two job openings. One promising >850k total comp with 10 weeks vacation and another in a fairly desirable location requiring only 3 days on site.

Hospitals wising up they can't recruit and retain with 50th percentile MGMA median ceilings and 8-5, M-F standard hospital benefit mindsets anymore? Maybe rad oncs are not the same as PAs in the foot clinic after all and the admins actually need to treat us well? Maybe? Please?

 

[jondunn]

 

[deleted1116990]

I reported them to the Colorado Department of Labor and Employment for violation of state law. I'll let you know if I hear anything.

Radiation Oncology Physician - St. Anthony Hospital - Lakewood, CO - Lakewood, CO 80228 - Indeed.com

Centura Health

www.indeed.com

On the job ad it says "*If you do not see the pay range for this position listed, you are on a third-party job board. All our pay ranges are posted on our careers site www.centura.org/careers. Please visit our careers’ page and apply today!"

So, when you go to Centura's website, you find the ad. Ok, fine.

Careers | Centura Health

provider-centura.icims.com

Except you get this:

Minimum Pay USD $17.00/Hr. Hiring Maximum Pay USD $12.15/Hr.

A nonsensical pay range. Even if it made sense, obviously fake numbers for a rad onc and laughing in the face of the law.
But wait, there's more. If you actually apply for this job, the application forces you to enter your "expected pay" as a number. There is no option to enter a character other than a number to put a range, or type something like negotiable or depends on volume or something like that. The only way to submit the application is type a number like 500000 or something like that. So they are advertising a job in a state that has a law that requires employers to disclose pay ranges and they have weaseled their way around it and forced applicants to throw the first number out (which any used car dealer will tell you you NEVER do). LOL. I guarantee you some admin is rank sorting applications by that column.

 

[Neuronix]

Report them again

 

[deleted941485]

Radiation Oncology Physician - St. Anthony Hospital - Lakewood, CO - Lakewood, CO 80228 - Indeed.com

Centura Health

www.indeed.com

On the job ad it says "*If you do not see the pay range for this position listed, you are on a third-party job board. All our pay ranges are posted on our careers site www.centura.org/careers. Please visit our careers’ page and apply today!"

So, when you go to Centura's website, you find the ad. Ok, fine.

Careers | Centura Health

provider-centura.icims.com

Except you get this:

Minimum Pay USD $17.00/Hr. Hiring Maximum Pay USD $12.15/Hr.

A nonsensical pay range. Even if it made sense, obviously fake numbers for a rad onc and laughing in the face of the law.
But wait, there's more. If you actually apply for this job, the application forces you to enter your "expected pay" as a number. There is no option to enter a character other than a number to put a range, or type something like negotiable or depends on volume or something like that. The only way to submit the application is type a number like 500000 or something like that. So they are advertising a job in a state that has a law that requires employers to disclose pay ranges and they have weaseled their way around it and forced applicants to throw the first number out (which any used car dealer will tell you you NEVER do). LOL. I guarantee you some admin is rank sorting applications by that column.

I ran into this a few years ago too. This was pre passage of the law. Report them.

 

[deleted1116990]

Report them again

It looks like you reported HCA for not disclosing salary range (Centura are pulling these shenanigans). From what I can tell that job is still posted, a year later. I find it kind of stunning that a hospital in the Denver metro has been unable to fill for over a year. That must be a real stinker. Anybody got any details on that one?

 

[medgator]

It looks like you reported HCA for not disclosing salary range (Centura are pulling these shenanigans). From what I can tell that job is still posted, a year later. I find it kind of stunning that a hospital in the Denver metro has been unable to fill for over a year. That must be a real stinker. Anybody got any details on that one?

Low ball salary is what I've heard

 

[thecarbonionangle]

Good for our field that nobody is taking these low ball jobs. The moment a sucker takes a job like this, it screws us all long term

 

[deleted1116990]

Low ball salary is what I've heard

How low? I'm tempted to apply out of sheer curiosity. The job is recruiting somebody for high volume gyn HDR, which should reimburse very well if done fairly on a per wRVU basis. That's hilarious if they are offering a flat <25th percentile salary for an HDR job. I've heard of HCA paying very well in other markets and incentivizing boomer-level 25 fraction IMRT end of life bone met type of stuff. I guess it varies.

Edit: Someone PM'ed me the offered salary. Unless this is a 1 day a week position, hilarious is an understatement.

 

[Gfunk6]

What is the #1 sign of an organization with excessive bureaucracy that has too much money? Hiring "consultants" to tell you what you already know.

ASTRO statement on RO workforce

 

[jondunn]

What is the #1 sign of an organization with excessive bureaucracy that has too much money? Hiring "consultants" to tell you what you already know.

ASTRO statement on RO workforce

I mean DO we know? No one is able to come up with any sort of number, and everyone involved has a bias either way

this information the consultants come up with will still be rife with potential issues, but at least its something. if they can say 'the magic number of residents per year is in this ballpark' that is something. ASTRO can afford it.

I see no issue.

having it officially outlined by a credible impartial source that we need to cut supply can only be a good thing.

 

[Gfunk6]

I mean DO we know? No one is able to come up with any sort of number, and everyone involved has a bias either way

I would say Yes

The thread discussing this article was an all-time SDN Rad Onc favorite

 

[Mandelin Rain]

I would say Yes

The thread discussing this article was an all-time SDN Rad Onc favorite

I was on the wrong side of history on that one. I more came at from the approach that he was lighting his career on fire with that article, which kind of happened for a short period IIRC. But, I think he's since settled in and is doing well by all accounts.

Huge cajones, either way.