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deleted1111261
Nothing special about Show Low, other than a mediocre ski hill.
Astro Career Center and "A Roadmap for Recruiting Medical Students into Radiation Oncology during a Period of Waning Interest"
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That’s not what the recruiter/hospital admin/real estate agent said!!!!
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deleted1116990
Bulls-it. Don't fall for the hospital's CFO's FMV boogey-man. Especially in an ultra-rural area where they really have some nerve to be using terms like "fair market value." It's all a scam to stick you with a lower base salary and give them an opportunity to retain collections from above average production.
If they are seeing 8-10 new consults week, then they are generating enough professional collections on a historical basis to justify a guaranteed 800k salary + benefits.
In order to violate Stark Law, you have to pay someone in excess of what they actually bill and collect, in essence kicking back additional pay to them for ordering imaging, referrals, therapies, etc. within the system.
The only way you are going to get burned with FMV/Stark Law is if you are low volume in a low payor mix like Appalachia or something, and getting paid well over 1M, which is actually the only places I am aware of anything like this ever happening.
Regardless, if you get stuck in negotiations over FMV, you simply say, "You seem really worried about this FMV thing. How about this. I will just bill and collect professional on my own. As an added bonus, you don't have to provide my benefits, locums coverage, or pay payroll tax on my income. Good deal, right?"
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deleted1111261
I don't think it's bull****. The by-laws of the hospital won't allow it. But, you sound like you are speaking from experience.
You can make the argument to bill professional on your own, but I don't think that sways the hospital to give an $800k base.
But, maybe you're right and people are getting >$650k base. I have not seen this once.
You can make the argument to bill professional on your own, but I don't think that sways the hospital to give an $800k base.
But, maybe you're right and people are getting >$650k base. I have not seen this once.
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deleted1116990
I personally had an offer a ultrarural location for guaranteed 750k.
So there are places that will do it.
I completely believe you that Show Low will not, and they may even have by-laws that have a maximum base salary in it or something. That is certainly possible. But that does not mean it is prima facie illegal. Which is what these hospital CFOs will tell you -- lying to you with a straight face like you're an idiot.
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deleted1111261
That's good to know that it is possible to get those types of guarantees, maybe just have to ask.
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Update of the current Astro Career Center Job posting on 07/01/2022 (done via Astro Member search):
1) Rad Onc employed with Essentia Health (Fargo, ND).
2) Rad Onc community academics with University of Michigan (Alma, MI).
3) Rad Onc academics with SUNY Upstate (Syracuse, NY).
4) Rad Onc private practice with Cancer Care Group (Indianapolis, IN).
5) Rad Onc community academics with Cleveland Clinic (Clinics in NE, Ohio).
6) Urorads with Associated Medical Professionals (Syracuse, NY).
7) Rad Onc community academics with Rutgers (Several sites in NE, NJ).
8) Rad Onc employed with Barrow Neurological Institute (Phoenix, AZ).
9) Rad Onc private practice with The Oregon Clinic (Portland, OR).
10) Rad Onc hospital employed with St Joseph Medical Group (Bardstown, KY).
11) Rad Onc academics with Case Western (Cleveland, OH).
12) Rad Onc employed with West Michigan Cancer Center (Kalamazoo, MI).
13) Rad Onc hospital employed with Meadowview Regional Medical Center (Maysville, KY).
14) Rad Onc department chair with Geisinger Medical Center (Danville, PA).
15) Rad Onc community academics with UPenn (Lancaster, PA).
16) Rad Onc employed with Bassett Healthcare Network (Cooperstown, NY).
17) Rad Onc private practice with the Lexington Clinic (Lexington, KY). $150k singing bonus.
18) Rad Onc academics with Jefferson Health (Philadelphia, PA).
19) Rad Onc academics with University of Nebraska (Omaha, NE).
20) Rad Onc private practice with Pottstown Regional Radiation Oncology (Pottstown, PA).
21) Rad Onc academics with Ohio State (Columbus, OH).
22) Rad Onc employed with Centura Health (Denver, CO) no salary listed as required by law.
23) Rad Onc community academics with Cleveland Clinic (Stuart and Vero Beach, FL).
24) Rad Onc community academics with Cornell (Flushing Queens, NY).
25) Rad Onc employed with Spencer Hospital (Spencer, IA).
26) Rad Onc employed with Averna Medical Group (Marshall, MN).
27) Rad Onc academics with Penn State (Hershey, PA).
28) Rad Onc academics with University of New Mexico (Albuquerque, NM).
29) Rad Onc employed with US Oncology (Springfield, OH).
30) Rad Onc employed with US Oncoogy (Daytona Beach, FL).
31) Rad Onc academics with Washington University (St Louis, MO).
32) Rad Onc employed with Aspirus Health (Wausau, WI).
33) Rad Onc employed with Presbyterian Healthcare Services (Albuquerque, NM).
34) Rad Onc academics with UPenn (Philadelphia, PA).
35) Rad Onc employed with OSF HealthCare (Danville, IL).
36) Rad Onc academics with University of Minnesota (Minneapolis, MN).
37) Rad Onc employed with St. Elizabeth (Greendale, IN).
38) Rad Onc employed with US Oncology (Prescott, AZ).
39) Rad Onc academics with University of Vermont (Burlington, VT).
40) Rad Onc employed with Northern Light Gould Hospital (Presque Isle, ME).
41) Rad Onc private practice with Clearwater Radiation Oncology (Clearwater, FL).
42) Rad Onc community academics with Mayo (Albert Lea, MN).
43) Rad Onc academics with University of Southern California (Los Angeles, CA).
44) Rad Onc community academics with Duke (Wake County, NC).
45) Rad Onc community academics with Duke (Orangeburg, SC).
46) Rad Onc employed with Marshfield Medical Center (Eau Claire, WI).
47) Rad Onc academics with Mass Gen (Boston, MA).
48) Rad Onc hospital employed with St Joseph (London, KY).
49) Rad Onc employed with MultiCare Regional Cancer Center (Tacoma, WA).
50) Rad Onc community academics with Wake Forest (High Point, NC).
51) Rad Onc employed with Laredo Medical Center (Laredo, TX).
52) Rad Onc employed with New York Cancer and Blood Specialists (Brooklyn, NY).
53) Rad Onc Department Chair OHSU (Portland, OR).
54) Rad Onc employed with Atlantic Health System (Summit, NJ).
55) Rad Onc employed with Physician Affiliate Group of NY (Brooklyn, NY).
56) Rad Onc employed with Alpha Premier Radiation Oncology (Houston, TX).
57) Rad Onc community academics with OHSU (Roseburg, OR).
58) Rad Onc academics with OHSU (Portland, OR).
59) Rad Onc employed with Methodist Health System (Omaha, NE).
60) Rad Onc community academics University of Iowa (Clinton, IA).
61) Rad Onc hospital employed with Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital (Binghamton, NY).
62) Rad Onc community academics with Stanford (Turlock, CA).
63) Rad Onc hospital employed with Benefis Health System (Great Falls, MT).
64) Rad Onc private practice with Associated in Radiation Medicine (Salisbury, MD).
65) Rad Onc employed with Sand Lake Cancer Center (Orlando, FL).
66) Rad Onc employed with US Oncology (Tucson, AZ).
67) Rad Onc employed with North Texas Cancer Center (Denton, TX).
68) Rad Onc academics with University of Kentucky (Lexington, KY).
69) Rad Onc employed with Hackensack Meridian Health (Neptune, NJ).
1) Rad Onc employed with Essentia Health (Fargo, ND).
2) Rad Onc community academics with University of Michigan (Alma, MI).
3) Rad Onc academics with SUNY Upstate (Syracuse, NY).
4) Rad Onc private practice with Cancer Care Group (Indianapolis, IN).
5) Rad Onc community academics with Cleveland Clinic (Clinics in NE, Ohio).
6) Urorads with Associated Medical Professionals (Syracuse, NY).
7) Rad Onc community academics with Rutgers (Several sites in NE, NJ).
8) Rad Onc employed with Barrow Neurological Institute (Phoenix, AZ).
9) Rad Onc private practice with The Oregon Clinic (Portland, OR).
10) Rad Onc hospital employed with St Joseph Medical Group (Bardstown, KY).
11) Rad Onc academics with Case Western (Cleveland, OH).
12) Rad Onc employed with West Michigan Cancer Center (Kalamazoo, MI).
13) Rad Onc hospital employed with Meadowview Regional Medical Center (Maysville, KY).
14) Rad Onc department chair with Geisinger Medical Center (Danville, PA).
15) Rad Onc community academics with UPenn (Lancaster, PA).
16) Rad Onc employed with Bassett Healthcare Network (Cooperstown, NY).
17) Rad Onc private practice with the Lexington Clinic (Lexington, KY). $150k singing bonus.
18) Rad Onc academics with Jefferson Health (Philadelphia, PA).
19) Rad Onc academics with University of Nebraska (Omaha, NE).
20) Rad Onc private practice with Pottstown Regional Radiation Oncology (Pottstown, PA).
21) Rad Onc academics with Ohio State (Columbus, OH).
22) Rad Onc employed with Centura Health (Denver, CO) no salary listed as required by law.
23) Rad Onc community academics with Cleveland Clinic (Stuart and Vero Beach, FL).
24) Rad Onc community academics with Cornell (Flushing Queens, NY).
25) Rad Onc employed with Spencer Hospital (Spencer, IA).
26) Rad Onc employed with Averna Medical Group (Marshall, MN).
27) Rad Onc academics with Penn State (Hershey, PA).
28) Rad Onc academics with University of New Mexico (Albuquerque, NM).
29) Rad Onc employed with US Oncology (Springfield, OH).
30) Rad Onc employed with US Oncoogy (Daytona Beach, FL).
31) Rad Onc academics with Washington University (St Louis, MO).
32) Rad Onc employed with Aspirus Health (Wausau, WI).
33) Rad Onc employed with Presbyterian Healthcare Services (Albuquerque, NM).
34) Rad Onc academics with UPenn (Philadelphia, PA).
35) Rad Onc employed with OSF HealthCare (Danville, IL).
36) Rad Onc academics with University of Minnesota (Minneapolis, MN).
37) Rad Onc employed with St. Elizabeth (Greendale, IN).
38) Rad Onc employed with US Oncology (Prescott, AZ).
39) Rad Onc academics with University of Vermont (Burlington, VT).
40) Rad Onc employed with Northern Light Gould Hospital (Presque Isle, ME).
41) Rad Onc private practice with Clearwater Radiation Oncology (Clearwater, FL).
42) Rad Onc community academics with Mayo (Albert Lea, MN).
43) Rad Onc academics with University of Southern California (Los Angeles, CA).
44) Rad Onc community academics with Duke (Wake County, NC).
45) Rad Onc community academics with Duke (Orangeburg, SC).
46) Rad Onc employed with Marshfield Medical Center (Eau Claire, WI).
47) Rad Onc academics with Mass Gen (Boston, MA).
48) Rad Onc hospital employed with St Joseph (London, KY).
49) Rad Onc employed with MultiCare Regional Cancer Center (Tacoma, WA).
50) Rad Onc community academics with Wake Forest (High Point, NC).
51) Rad Onc employed with Laredo Medical Center (Laredo, TX).
52) Rad Onc employed with New York Cancer and Blood Specialists (Brooklyn, NY).
53) Rad Onc Department Chair OHSU (Portland, OR).
54) Rad Onc employed with Atlantic Health System (Summit, NJ).
55) Rad Onc employed with Physician Affiliate Group of NY (Brooklyn, NY).
56) Rad Onc employed with Alpha Premier Radiation Oncology (Houston, TX).
57) Rad Onc community academics with OHSU (Roseburg, OR).
58) Rad Onc academics with OHSU (Portland, OR).
59) Rad Onc employed with Methodist Health System (Omaha, NE).
60) Rad Onc community academics University of Iowa (Clinton, IA).
61) Rad Onc hospital employed with Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital (Binghamton, NY).
62) Rad Onc community academics with Stanford (Turlock, CA).
63) Rad Onc hospital employed with Benefis Health System (Great Falls, MT).
64) Rad Onc private practice with Associated in Radiation Medicine (Salisbury, MD).
65) Rad Onc employed with Sand Lake Cancer Center (Orlando, FL).
66) Rad Onc employed with US Oncology (Tucson, AZ).
67) Rad Onc employed with North Texas Cancer Center (Denton, TX).
68) Rad Onc academics with University of Kentucky (Lexington, KY).
69) Rad Onc employed with Hackensack Meridian Health (Neptune, NJ).
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deleted1116990
So many rural midwest permalocums trash jobs. Glad to see nobody is taking them.
40) Rad Onc employed with Northern Light Gould Hospital (Presque Isle, ME).
Think I talked to these people almost 2 years ago. Nobody is going to move to rural Maine for MGMA avg. unless their only other option is unemployment. Good news for the hospitals is look what is going to be coming out of the training pipeline in 2-3 years. Hang in there admins!
40) Rad Onc employed with Northern Light Gould Hospital (Presque Isle, ME).
Think I talked to these people almost 2 years ago. Nobody is going to move to rural Maine for MGMA avg. unless their only other option is unemployment. Good news for the hospitals is look what is going to be coming out of the training pipeline in 2-3 years. Hang in there admins!
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Yup lots of the same old jobs. Anything halfway decent only gets posted once or maybe twice. 41) Rad Onc private practice with Clearwater Radiation Oncology (Clearwater, FL) looked like a legit small private practice.
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deleted1111261
Alma, MI job is not community academics really. It’s basically Perma Locums
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deleted1116990
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Guessing the permalocums has less expectations of them for similar pay?Community academics vs. permalocums hospital employee?
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I'd assume something like that UVM job will get a lot of apps if at main site. Burlington is sweet (and cold).
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Whats the deal with the Oregon clinic job? Legit?
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I mean... it ain't the WORST list. I've seen worse.
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Legit but selective according to people I asked.
Applied and haven't heard anything
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They’re real and they’re spectacular
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deleted1111261
My guess is they will be very pedigree oriented.Legit but selective according to people I asked.
Applied and haven't heard anything
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Ya think?
Just count the number of IVY undergrad degrees in this group.
The marquee, urban private groups (see INOVA, SERO, Princeton, TOG) are filled to the brim with pedigree. Nice gig if you can land it. Only folks from very top training programs need apply.
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deleted1116990
Basically every southwest florida practice. I gave up trying to get in there long ago with my cow college degrees. Not sure I would fit in with a culture where that is an important thing anyway.
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Legit but selective according to people I asked.
Applied and haven't heard anything
Sounds like they are looking for someone with brachytherapy experience. " Position: We are seeking a full-time clinically focused ABR Board Eligible/Certified Radiation Oncologist, prefer HDR experience and interest. -Full-time position details: 5 days per week for first 3 months, then 4.5 days per week for next 3 months, then 4 days per week thereafter. Full-time is 4 days per week for all partners. Vacation starts at 5 weeks per year."
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If I was in a high volume brachy residency PGY4ish, could try as much as possible to get extra brachy time/experience that PGY5 year and market that for jobs. That person could find themselves a nice niche - if you like it of course (as I say being 3.5+ years from my last implant of anything).
HDR skill is not as valuable as it used be... cervix is rare and won't support > 1 FTE at most centers.
Prostate HDR is not much better
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Definitely in demand at larger centers though
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That Clearwater job sounds good if you're willing to hustle (McKesson/uson). Daytona job is urorads. Still definitely more sunshine state jobs than we've seen in recent past
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I wish I had this skill, although I'm not at a center that justifies it. At larger places, they are going to want to be comprehensive (understandably so) and I would say having good brachy in your pocket is going to be a big plus when applying as most of their docs also have no desire to do it.
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I would say peds and brachy are both very marketable in those larger non academic places where they still have to offer those services (financially less lucrative too, which is why they are often subsidized by some of the other services in the dept... Personally I'd be fine contributing my revenue to not deal with peds or interstitial brachy)
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Current salaries seem to be about 300-400k for new grad and 400-500k for busy established doc who would be making at least 1.5x in an equivalent private practice.
Also have to deal with academic bureaucracy from main center that cuts down on independence. A lot of do what you're told or pack your bags.
Ability to grow in academics little to none, no path to private level salaries even if you are busy.
If location and lifestyle ok, may not be a bad gig. I've seen several gigs that were supposed to be cush blow up in the rad oncs face to be much busier than expected, without significant financial reward or ability to advance meaningfully in academics.
All of the above tends to lead to high turnover in these positions and wariness among radiation oncologists.
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Imagine getting paid 6 figures more than that for the same work in a non academic hospital or PP? You might find your answer there
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deleted1116990
In general it's all of the bad of academics with none of the good. You also have in the back of your mind the knowledge that the PP docs that used to own and work that site on their own were making literally at least double what you are for the same work.
However.
If you can get a 4 day clinic and convince them to not make you come in on your "admin" day (good luck), I'd be all over that for 500k if volume is reasonable and it's in a desirable area. Usually what you see is a small town satellite in the country 60+ miles from the main center wanting you on site every day with the same base pay as the main site but no volume to support bonus above that or adjustment for the fact that you have to live in BFE or have a stupid commute.
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Some of these community academics jobs have been posted for a year to years without filling (Duke/Chapel Hill/UPenn/UPMC ect). Generally speaking these are probably considered the least desirable jobs due to a suboptimal combination of pay/location/professional growth. Not saying they won’t work for some though.
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Because it likely is a 5 day a week job
Yes these jobs are always 5 d / week on-site because University sticks to the maximalist definition of the supervision requirements (ACR accreditation etc).
Vacation time is low (4 or 5 weeks in my region at the main players). You have to file for coverage time at your satellite months in advance.
Once the pool RadOnc doc comes to cover you, they are always pissy due to their 60 miles morning drive and are trying to re-plan your patients since they want that 3 extra wRVU.
Vacation time is low (4 or 5 weeks in my region at the main players). You have to file for coverage time at your satellite months in advance.
Once the pool RadOnc doc comes to cover you, they are always pissy due to their 60 miles morning drive and are trying to re-plan your patients since they want that 3 extra wRVU.
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deleted1111261
If that’s the starting gig, not so bad, depending on production thresholds.
Some places truly give you that day from home.
“Community academics” is not well defined. Could be a UPMC satellite 5 miles from the city that has residents. Some may consider Banner that - associated with medical schools and other non RO residents and fellows, clinical trials, and the work / pay are fair and reasonable.
Seper seems to have described the worst possible version of it.
If you get starting 450+ and 4 days in office, 5-7 consults a week in a decent area - this is now a “good job”
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Judgement call based on limited info but I take “community academics” to mean non primary site with no resident coverage but in a hospital system that has a rad onc residency program.
Good example:
60) Rad Onc community academics University of Iowa (Clinton, IA).
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deleted1111261
I can say I don’t know Fargo at all. Is it comparable to Boise? I would definitely consider Boise. Fargo appears to have way less to do, but I could be wrong.
It’s funny that tag line is “booming metro”
It’s funny that tag line is “booming metro”
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Are academic sites now doing the classic onerous non-compete with "two years guaranteed" salary but no hope of meeting production metrics and subsequent steep decrease in pay in year-3 thing... that private hospital employed positions love?
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Agree with first two lines.
Have not seen the third. Generally they just work on academic pursuits or putz about on SDN or something otherwise low-brain.
In my > 10 years experience working with large RO networks, salary guarantees and contract obligations have eroded to almost nothing. They pay you however much they want, for however long they wish. And yes you sign a broad non-compete if you "hired to work for a satellite"
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deleted1116990
Private practice in Austin, TX.
What do you think? 100? 150 applications?
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I doubt it. aren't we against their abortion stance or something?
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Blue city in a red state is ideal for many.... Unfortunately if that situation comes up, many will just travel to get that care if needed hence the ones that are the screwed are generally the impoverished (like in most situations).
many companies are paying up for that type of travel and care already.
If it comes down to Austin vs NYC or SF for PP, I'm still guessing the Austin job is more competitive to get
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I'm prepping my CV right now. Doesn't matter to me. My wife already said she's not getting any more abortions.
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No place is perfect... I'd take the Bible thumpers in TX (which are probably well outside the PRA's city limits) over the poop patrol in SF any day
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I always, and still do, liked Austin. Was thinking of doing film school there. Partly because the burnt orange was a nice break from the road maintenance orange of U Tennessee.
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