At what point do Student Loans outweigh benefits?

[GypsyHummus]

Advertisement - Members don't see this ad

Hello everyone,

I just graduated college and am looking into applying to Pharmacy schools. I am wondering, from a financial perspective, what is the break from where pharmacy becomes a good investment to a bad investment as far as student loans are concerned?

Brief background: Mid 20s, just graduated with a BS degree and have no undergrad debt.

I am fortunate enough to have a state pharmacy school that would cost about 20K a year (Tuition + room and board) but going here would require additional pre rec classes (about a years worth). Total for pharm school would be around 80K. Very competitive school however, I might not get in.

The other school is near where I live currently and I could live with family for four years (Tuition 35K/year, but no living expenses). Total for pharm school would be around 140,000K.

I volunteered in a pharmacy for about a year and enjoyed the clinic side of pharmacy, so I know a bit about the profession. Was there anyone here that did not have pharmacy as their first choice? If so, do you regret the decision to go into the field, or did you eventually find happiness with the profession?

 

[trailerpark]

Don't exceed 1.5x your yearly salary. You'll hear the dinosaurs say 1x but tuition inflation has far outpaced that the last 20 years.

 

[PharmtoCS]

The loan amounts you listed are not bad especially if you can get into the competitive school, but pharmacy is saturated and will most likely get worse as schools continue to open and flood the market with no end in sight. From a financial perspective, you may also want to consider other fields that may give you a better return on investment. Computer science and business/finance graduates, for example, can easily earn far more than a pharmacist with far less debt. The work environment of software engineers is also much better that for pharmacists, particularly retail.

 

[awval999]

Why do you want to do pharmacy? Have you ever worked in a pharmacy?

Start there.

 

[samsforever]

By the time you get into pharmacy school and graduate, it will be 2020 from what you have stated. Even right now, there's 2013 and 2014 grads who still don't have a full time job. I regret picking pharmacy because I graduated with a massive amount of student loans, which will affect my entire life (I am in my mid-twenties now). If I knew what I know now, I would suggest you try to find a field you really like and graduate with as little student loans as possible.

 

[GypsyHummus]

The loan amounts you listed are not bad especially if you can get into the competitive school, but pharmacy is saturated and will most likely get worse as schools continue to open and flood the market with no end in sight. From a financial perspective, you may also want to consider other fields that may give you a better return on investment. Computer science and business/finance graduates, for example, can easily earn far more than a pharmacist with far less debt. The work environment of software engineers is also much better that for pharmacists, particularly retail.

I appreciate the advice! The only problem with buisness is that there are so many unemployed MBAs right now, it doesn't look like the best thing to go into. I like the work of pharmacy, counting pills, talking to nervous and sometimes mean patients, but I am not in love with it. I am worried about the saturation tho.

Why do you want to do pharmacy? Have you ever worked in a pharmacy?

Start there.

I volunteered in a pharmacy for about a year as a pharm tech, and could see myself doing a pharmacy if the day to day job is not too much diffrent. But like I said, I like it, I wouldn't be in love with it. But repitition isn't too much of an issue for me, I find enjoyment in repetative but still important tasks, especially when there are six figures involved. I have hobbies and other interests that keep me busy.

By the time you get into pharmacy school and graduate, it will be 2020 from what you have stated. Even right now, there's 2013 and 2014 grads who still don't have a full time job. I regret picking pharmacy because I graduated with a massive amount of student loans, which will affect my entire life (I am in my mid-twenties now). If I knew what I know now, I would suggest you try to find a field you really like and graduate with as little student loans as possible.

That's what I was afriad of. I appreciate the advice all the same. Will the rate of new schools opening up ever slow down?

 

[Lucky One]

That's what I was afriad of. I appreciate the advice all the same. Will the rate of new schools opening up ever slow down?

I would say if you have good intentions or passion for the field of pharmacy you would be alright in terms of future employment in addition to being a competitive student while in school (working/networking/organizations).

There is some slowing in the rate of pharmacy programs and I'd honestly say in the next 5 years or when you would graduate the landscape would be better. I'd been hearing some rumors of programs shutting down their programs or satellite campuses because of the poor ROI on students. Also you'll notice that programs are extending applications way late in the game in hopes of attracting students.

But stuff changes all the time we'll see how it all unfolds.

Luckily for me my parents are paying for my education but I'd say if you were paying 35K+ tuition to going to a sub-tier private school it would not be worth it considering all the interests.

 

[samsforever]

If your parents are paying for your education, then pharmacy is one of the best fields to do. If you have no student loans, even if you work part time, you'd still make 60k/year, which is great compared to other fields. But if you are to graduate with student loans >100k, I would reconsider pharmacy, personally. I don't understand what above^ poster is saying in terms of future employment being alright. I personally know plenty of residency trained pharmacists who are unhappy, applying to staffing jobs with crappy schedules (the ones who are getting the jobs), who are not satisfied with the field. I don't mean to sound so negative, but I wish I had made a better decision before I started pharmacy and I'm only trying to help you.

 

[Dred Pirate]

whether or not pharmacy is a good profession is a different discussion that if the loan amounts are too much. Lets assume (for the sake of this argument a well paying 100,000 a year job is a guaranteed). Look at what your payments are (all payments, car, student loan, rent/mortgage) - after you take away those amounts, can you live the way you want? if the answer is yes, go for it. Personally the 1.5x your income is a decent number to start with. But you have to figure in cost of living where you are at, do you have a family, kids to be responsible for?

 

[sosoo]

by the time u graduate you're probably gonna have a hard time looking for a job. if u find one, most likely you'll work for CVS, since every CVS pharmacists' dream is to leave this company, n thereby creating job openings.... u should read through all the CVS hate comments before taking this path.. it might not be worth the trouble.

 

[GypsyHummus]

I would say if you have good intentions or passion for the field of pharmacy you would be alright in terms of future employment in addition to being a competitive student while in school (working/networking/organizations).

There is some slowing in the rate of pharmacy programs and I'd honestly say in the next 5 years or when you would graduate the landscape would be better. I'd been hearing some rumors of programs shutting down their programs or satellite campuses because of the poor ROI on students. Also you'll notice that programs are extending applications way late in the game in hopes of attracting students.

But stuff changes all the time we'll see how it all unfolds.

Luckily for me my parents are paying for my education but I'd say if you were paying 35K+ tuition to going to a sub-tier private school it would not be worth it considering all the interests.

I have good intentions in that I see pharmacy as more than just a job with a six figure (hopefully) tag on it. I volunteered in the pharmacy and while my breath wasn't taken away and I don't feel a yearning passion, I enjoyed the communication with team members and talking to patients.

If your parents are paying for your education, then pharmacy is one of the best fields to do. If you have no student loans, even if you work part time, you'd still make 60k/year, which is great compared to other fields. But if you are to graduate with student loans >100k, I would reconsider pharmacy, personally. I don't understand what above^ poster is saying in terms of future employment being alright. I personally know plenty of residency trained pharmacists who are unhappy, applying to staffing jobs with crappy schedules (the ones who are getting the jobs), who are not satisfied with the field. I don't mean to sound so negative, but I wish I had made a better decision before I started pharmacy and I'm only trying to help you.

I really appreciate the realistic advice. Student loans are deff something to consider. That is why I wish I was competative for my states pharm school, that would keep the bill to 80K after its all said and done. I take it pharmacists make about 105K a year, which becomes 70K take home?

whether or not pharmacy is a good profession is a different discussion that if the loan amounts are too much. Lets assume (for the sake of this argument a well paying 100,000 a year job is a guaranteed). Look at what your payments are (all payments, car, student loan, rent/mortgage) - after you take away those amounts, can you live the way you want? if the answer is yes, go for it. Personally the 1.5x your income is a decent number to start with. But you have to figure in cost of living where you are at, do you have a family, kids to be responsible for?

I am single at the moment and have 0 undergrad debt. But if we make 100K, we are prolly taking home 6oK. 20 K for living expenses (gas, food, etc). So 40K per year for the debt, be done in 5 years? Is this realistic?

 

[GypsyHummus]

by the time u graduate you're probably gonna have a hard time looking for a job. if u find one, most likely you'll work for CVS, since every CVS pharmacists' dream is to leave this company, n thereby creating job openings.... u should read through all the CVS hate comments before taking this path.. it might not be worth the trouble.

I love this. I have read the comments, people HATE CVS, it is humorous in a dark way.

I have heard good things about grocery chains though

 

[Dred Pirate]

I am single at the moment and have 0 undergrad debt. But if we make 100K, we are prolly taking home 6oK. 20 K for living expenses (gas, food, etc). So 40K per year for the debt, be done in 5 years? Is this realistic?

honestly? no - I have met very very few people who make 100k but are able to live on 20k - and put double that towards their debt. Sounds good, but once those checks start coming in it is hard to keep living like a college kid

 

[GypsyHummus]

honestly? no - I have met very very few people who make 100k but are able to live on 20k - and put double that towards their debt. Sounds good, but once those checks start coming in it is hard to keep living like a college kid

What is a more realistic expectation of someone still is wanting to get rid of debt faster than average? 20K a year to debt and 40 for living?

 

[pezdispenser]

What is a more realistic expectation of someone still is wanting to get rid of debt faster than average? 20K a year to debt and 40 for living?

For your original question, yeah 1-1.5x expected salary, but really try hard to keep it even lower than that by doing things like working as a pharmacy intern, which also helps you learn pharmacy, work ethic, network and get a job when you graduate.

I've seen many new grad pharmacists work hard in retail and pick up extra shifts whenever they can, make like $135k-150k+, which is $90k-100k take-home. But the important thing at this stage is to take control of your finances so you can control your spending and pay off your debts. If you're single, I would say you can live very reasonably for $2k-3k/mo, which would leave $60k to pay off debt. That means you may only have to do it for a year or two to pay off your loans, and then guess what? You'll have another $60k in disposable income to do whatever you want!

 

[SClENCE]

It will cost me 120k including cost of living/housing, though I also have 25k in loans already from undergrad.

So that's 145k, but if I'm lucky I can make 20k+ during school and owe 125k+ interest
Pay aggressively and it can be knocked out in 4-8 years maybe... not sure how realistic this and it's assuming I stay single

Overall though I think it's well worth it unless you are paying 40k+ a year in tuition alone

 

[HelpfulPharmer1]

Hello everyone,

I am fortunate enough to have a state pharmacy school that would cost about 20K a year (Tuition + room and board) but going here would require additional pre rec classes (about a years worth). Total for pharm school would be around 80K. Very competitive school however, I might not get in.

Before tax, retail pharmacist may make 140 thousands a year. If you are single, you pay about 30 percent total tax (Fed, Social security, state...) That means you net about 98 thousands a year. If you wait 1 year to take additional pre rec classes (about a years worth), you lose about 98 thousands because you will graduate late 1 year. So at the end of your working life, when you look back, this school actually took from your life: 80 thousands + 98 thousands of loss income = about 180 thousands.
((Also, check again the number of 20 thousands a year for everything? My rent + food + gas + car insurance + heatlh insurance was $1000 a month, that's 12 thousands a year already.))

If you get into other school now, then at the end of your working life, when you look back, this school actually took from your life: 140 thousands.

 

[HelpfulPharmer1]

I volunteered in a pharmacy for about a year and enjoyed the clinic side of pharmacy, so I know a bit about the profession.

Good to hear.

Was there anyone here that did not have pharmacy as their first choice? If so, do you regret the decision to go into the field, or did you eventually find happiness with the profession?

Went into pharmacy school with Bachelor's in Business. Found many friends with Bachelor's in Education, Computer, Psychology....

I fit very well with community pharmacy. Love my patients, enjoy working at retail, and found happiness as pharmacist.

 

[El Trombopag]

honestly? no - I have met very very few people who make 100k but are able to live on 20k - and put double that towards their debt. Sounds good, but once those checks start coming in it is hard to keep living like a college kid

I'll second that, though I am currently living it. I'll have my 150K loans paid off this year, but it's meant living pretty much like I did as a student to have it done in 4 years. It sounds good on paper, but it is a little soul-destroying when you actually do it. The salary you receive is essentially 'buying life'. When you can't enjoy that salary, your left with no life and no money. There's some hyperbole there, but I am definitely feeling it as I near the end. Part of me really wants to switch to part time or per diem after I'm paid off this summer, maybe teach at the local community college or something.

 

[sakigt]

Dont forget that those loans and their unsubsidized intrest....

From the best I can tell I was dispersed 108k but owed 142k when I started making payments (6 month break, 3 of which I spent getting licensed, getting a job, etc). And that was before they took away ALL of our subsidized loans for grad school.........

 

[trailerpark]

I love how everyone is going to work retail and pick up every open shift. Good luck when you get hired as a floater and will be lucky to get 32 hours a week, but I'm sure in 4 years it'll be better.

 

[Dred Pirate]

Dont forget that those loans and their unsubsidized intrest....

From the best I can tell I was dispersed 108k but owed 142k when I started making payments (6 month break, 3 of which I spent getting licensed, getting a job, etc). And that was before they took away ALL of our subsidized loans for grad school.........

they took away subsidized loans for grad school? I guess I am getting old (graduated 10 years ago).

Realistically we all say we will work extra and throw that money towards loans - in my first two years of retail I made 70k in overtime and paid an extra 2k to my loans - very stupid on my behalf, but I got "all that money" and bought a new car, went on trips, bought an expensive house, bought an expensive ex-wife (who actually made more than me).

So my point is, unless you do it from day one, it is easy to fall into the trap.

 

[deleted390966]

.

 

[Dred Pirate]

Yes, they did take away subsidized loans for grad school since a few years ago.

that sucks, everyday I realize how lucky I was to graduate when I did - when you could consolidate for <2%, most loans were subsidized.

 

[Gombrich12]

I love how everyone is going to work retail and pick up every open shift. Good luck when you get hired as a floater and will be lucky to get 32 hours a week, but I'm sure in 4 years it'll be better.

And they are already hiring new grads at a lower pay rate than existing pharmacists. For a lot of people the only way out of their debt will be some sort of government welfare program.

 

[SClENCE]

Why are professional school loans unsubsizided but undergrad is? It should be just the opposite... why is the government helping kids get a degree in German polka music? This is useless and these kids will be surprised and act like the world wronged them when they can't get a job.

 

[deleted390966]

.

 

[RxStudentatUB]

I love how everyone is going to work retail and pick up every open shift. Good luck when you get hired as a floater and will be lucky to get 32 hours a week, but I'm sure in 4 years it'll be better.

This is what confuses me too. Everyone seems like they're a tech for some big chain for x years, then go into pharmacy school as an intern, then big chain has room for all these guys when they graduate? There was a 2015 grad offers thread also that had some people getting ~$115,000 per year, which I guess would be roughly the same as 2009 offers so I am not seeing the decreasing rates, unless FT got bumped up to more than 40 hours per week. Or is decreasing rates more transparent with independent community?

Pharmacy is weird, I think it still provides an upper/middle-classish income for those that have worked for several years and proved themselves to be competent. On the other hand, I think the major problem in 4 years is going to be a Catch 22 where people with experience can move around and get hired easily, newer grads with only intern experience will be going through a no holds barred match trying to compete for hours. Or is all this just smoke?

 

[RxStudentatUB]

Hello everyone,

I just graduated college and am looking into applying to Pharmacy schools. I am wondering, from a financial perspective, what is the break from where pharmacy becomes a good investment to a bad investment as far as student loans are concerned?

Brief background: Mid 20s, just graduated with a BS degree and have no undergrad debt.

I am fortunate enough to have a state pharmacy school that would cost about 20K a year (Tuition + room and board) but going here would require additional pre rec classes (about a years worth). Total for pharm school would be around 80K. Very competitive school however, I might not get in.

The other school is near where I live currently and I could live with family for four years (Tuition 35K/year, but no living expenses). Total for pharm school would be around 140,000K.

I volunteered in a pharmacy for about a year and enjoyed the clinic side of pharmacy, so I know a bit about the profession. Was there anyone here that did not have pharmacy as their first choice? If so, do you regret the decision to go into the field, or did you eventually find happiness with the profession?

I dunno how reliable this is, found it at the pre-pharm forum but look at the #'s, some of the calculations I would have altered due to lower cost of living in my town. But it' provides a good general idea of your situation if you get work after graduation: http://www.thepharmacistblog.com/2015/03/24/is-pharmacy-school-worth-it/

 

[GypsyHummus]

they took away subsidized loans for grad school? I guess I am getting old (graduated 10 years ago).

Realistically we all say we will work extra and throw that money towards loans - in my first two years of retail I made 70k in overtime and paid an extra 2k to my loans - very stupid on my behalf, but I got "all that money" and bought a new car, went on trips, bought an expensive house, bought an expensive ex-wife (who actually made more than me).

So my point is, unless you do it from day one, it is easy to fall into the trap.

Wait, so was it 70K plus the base pay of around 110K?

 

[pezdispenser]

I love how everyone is going to work retail and pick up every open shift. Good luck when you get hired as a floater and will be lucky to get 32 hours a week, but I'm sure in 4 years it'll be better.

This is what confuses me too. Everyone seems like they're a tech for some big chain for x years, then go into pharmacy school as an intern, then big chain has room for all these guys when they graduate? There was a 2015 grad offers thread also that had some people getting ~$115,000 per year, which I guess would be roughly the same as 2009 offers so I am not seeing the decreasing rates, unless FT got bumped up to more than 40 hours per week. Or is decreasing rates more transparent with independent community?

Pharmacy is weird, I think it still provides an upper/middle-classish income for those that have worked for several years and proved themselves to be competent. On the other hand, I think the major problem in 4 years is going to be a Catch 22 where people with experience can move around and get hired easily, newer grads with only intern experience will be going through a no holds barred match trying to compete for hours. Or is all this just smoke?

Well turnover and burnout are extremely high in retail. So retail is always taking on new grads to replace them. Yes, sometimes you are only guaranteed a base of 32 hrs/wk. But you are pretty much thrown into the shark tank to sink or swim. So going down the retail track is all about survival of the fittest. If you are a strong retail pharmacist and can cope with the stress without burning out, you can always pick up extra shifts.

 

[Dred Pirate]

Wait, so was it 70K plus the base pay of around 110K?

base was 89k (10 years ago) - then 35k OT in each of my first two years

 

[Dred Pirate]

I dunno how reliable this is, found it at the pre-pharm forum but look at the #'s, some of the calculations I would have altered due to lower cost of living in my town. But it' provides a good general idea of your situation if you get work after graduation: http://www.thepharmacistblog.com/2015/03/24/is-pharmacy-school-worth-it/

there are some MAJOR issues with that chart -
1. it only takes into account your age from 18 to 48 - in the last 15 years of working is where they pharmacist salary is going to blow away the techs because they have a much higher income.
2. I also think it is not doing the salaries justice - a tech taking home 28k seams right (in today's dollars) but most RPh's (at least myself) take home close to 85 after taxes - again
3. If you have higher income, you can afford to put a higher percentage away for retirement - I max out my 403b with 18k and live onless
4. The overall point is good - you are starting off in a hole and need to dig your way out stat - or better yet, make it a smaller hole by working, going to a less expensive school. But I think the real break even age is not 48 - it is probably more like mid 30's.

 

[GypsyHummus]

base was 89k (10 years ago) - then 35k OT in each of my first two years

both after taxes?

 

[Dred Pirate]

both after taxes?

no that was 10+ years ago

 

[GypsyHummus]

no that was 10+ years ago

Jeeze, only 89K as base? Has this gotten any better over the years? They have been pitching to us here at my university that pharmacists make an easy 115K a year.

 

[Dred Pirate]

Jeeze, only 89K as base? Has this gotten any better over the years? They have been pitching to us here at my university that pharmacists make an easy 115K a year.

I now make 130k a year, but to say "easy 115k" is complete bull honkey - read through the posts here, most new grads in retail are only be guaranteed part time hours, hospitals (at least mine) start under 100k.