AVOID MILITARY MEDICINE if possible

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Status
Not open for further replies.
latest issue of the uniformed family physician noted below;

highlights include the USAF hiring 100 civilian docs to man the CONUS clinics (probably a good and needed decision) and the USN rep stating that they are undermanned at 87%. The manning thing was a major problem during my USAF time and the labelling of clinics at 100% or 87% if often very misleading. For example; our clinic was supposedly 100% manned; but we had 3 docs deployed, one doc out with surgery, so we were still 100% manned on paper, but we were 50% manned in reality. Then include people on leave, or people just separated with the replacement due in 1-2 months and suddenly manning is 15-20%.

http://www.usafp.org/Word_PDF_Files/2006-Summer-Newsletter.pdf
 
Pemberley said:
...I suspect most military units are more effective with volunteers, for most of whom the threat of getting kicked out would actually be a punishment...

You so do not get the concept of esprit de corps and professionalism or have never hung out with any trigger-pulling units.

Come on now. Can you give our troops any credit at all for doing the right thing for the right reasons?
 
Ok, so what is your story ? You former ground pounder ? Fill us in.

BTW, read your Blog. I am one of those PA's you belittle. You might have heard, 2 of us have been killed in this goat rope so far. We're the guys in the "trigger pulling outfits" you speak of.

After reading your blog, I think I understand your version of "esprit de corps"



Panda Bear said:
You so do not get the concept of esprit de corps and professionalism or have never hung out with any trigger-pulling units.

Come on now. Can you give our troops any credit at all for doing the right thing for the right reasons?
 
Panda Bear said:
You so do not get the concept of esprit de corps and professionalism or have never hung out with any trigger-pulling units.

Come on now. Can you give our troops any credit at all for doing the right thing for the right reasons?

Well, actually, that was what I was trying to get at... I haven't ever been a ground-pounder (I know my limitations!) but I served closely with them in Iraq, and their voluntary dedication to a demanding and dangerous job impressed me. I thought that the presence of conscripts among them would have diluted the motivation you speak of.

Naturally, once they were there, cohesion with their fire teams was as important (more immediately important, when they were no-kidding in the s**t) than what lead them to sign on in the first place.

Is it possible you mis-read my post? I'm a little confused by your reaction. 😕
 
alpha62 said:
Ok, so what is your story ? You former ground pounder ? Fill us in.

BTW, read your Blog. I am one of those PA's you belittle. You might have heard, 2 of us have been killed in this goat rope so far. We're the guys in the "trigger pulling outfits" you speak of.

After reading your blog, I think I understand your version of "esprit de corps"

Where do I belittle PAs? I merely observed that they are taking over family practice, an MD intern shouldn't shadow a PA if the program is trying to convince him that FP has a future for MDs, and that I am ambivalent to the whole thing anyways.

Sergeant P. Bear, USMC (former)
Weapons Platoon, Kilo Company 3/8
1983-1991
 
Panda Bear said:
Where do I belittle PAs? I merely observed that they are taking over family practice, an MD intern shouldn't shadow a PA if the program is trying to convince him that FP has a future for MDs, and that I am ambivalent to the whole thing anyways.

Sergeant P. Bear, USMC (former)
Weapons Platoon, Kilo Company 3/8
1983-1991

Thank God there are PAs and Foreign Docs there to fill in the void and need for family docs, because Lord knows, US MD Grads are not signing up to fill that void, and for good reason.
 
Panda Bear said:
You so do not get the concept of esprit de corps and professionalism or have never hung out with any trigger-pulling units.

Come on now. Can you give our troops any credit at all for doing the right thing for the right reasons?

I thought it through a little more, and I think I understand what you're reacting to... I implied that occasionally the application of consequences was necessary in order to keep a troop in line.

Perhaps this is a difference between the Air Force and the Marine Corps. USMC boot camp, I have heard, is a fundamentally changing experience. Air Force boot camp can fail to be that. I worked in the military-training side of a tech school for a while, and 95% of our airmen were solid or great or somewhere in between.

My job was to work with the other 5%. They were fundamentally the same high-school boys and girls that they had been before boot camp. They didn't have a clear image of what they were good for, and what they were good at. They needed an occasional course correction. This is no disgrace to the troop; all of us, I imagine, needed an occasional course correction at 18. In my opinion, and in my (undoubtedly far-removed-from-combat-arms) expertise, anything that limits the military's ability to build good troops out of... well, not-yet-good troops... is a bad thing.
 
Well, you did the time with boots on the ground, so you are entitled to your opinion.

Why should an MD intern shadow a PA ? I don't know. Why should I have been forced to salute some 250 lb , non-deployable Lesbian OB-Gyn 0-5 ? I had a lot of military MD/DO help me along the way when I was a Private, that's the only reason I peek in on this site. At work, I just stay in my lane of fire, pick up my check at the end of the week.

If you wonder why they put students with PA's sometimes, you must have forgotten why they put 2LT's with old NCO's too. But then again, I always wondered why they put GMO's with no residency tng out on the line with me too ?

I don't think you are that ambivalent Gunny,you took the time to set up a Blog about it, somebody pissed in your Cheerios.

Whatever happened to engage, adapt, overcome ?


Panda Bear said:
Where do I belittle PAs? I merely observed that they are taking over family practice, an MD intern shouldn't shadow a PA if the program is trying to convince him that FP has a future for MDs, and that I am ambivalent to the whole thing anyways.

Sergeant P. Bear, USMC (former)
Weapons Platoon, Kilo Company 3/8
1983-1991
 
alpha62 said:
Well, you did the time with boots on the ground, so you are entitled to your opinion.

Why should an MD intern shadow a PA ? I don't know. Why should I have been forced to salute some 250 lb , non-deployable Lesbian OB-Gyn 0-5 ? I had a lot of military MD/DO help me along the way when I was a Private, that's the only reason I peek in on this site. At work, I just stay in my lane of fire, pick up my check at the end of the week.

If you wonder why they put students with PA's sometimes, you must have forgotten why they put 2LT's with old NCO's too. But then again, I always wondered why they put GMO's with no residency tng out on the line with me too ?

I don't think you are that ambivalent Gunny,you took the time to set up a Blog about it, somebody pissed in your Cheerios.

Whatever happened to engage, adapt, overcome ?

1. I don't see what military service has to do with anybody's opinion on anything not related to the military, particularly their opinion on the role of midlevel providors. There is no equivalence between military service and the civilian medical profession.

2. PAs are not physicians. Neither are corpsmen (our version of medics). I have the greatest respect for corpsmen but that doesn't mean I am belittling them by pointing it out.

3. Duke Family Medicine made no distinction between PAs (and NPs) and physicians as to their roles in the clinic. This is fine, as you would know if you read my blog more carefully, because I believe that most if not all of the field can be handled by midlevels. I was pointing out the hypocrisy of the program which on one hand insisted that physicians were essential to delivering care but at the same time de facto acknowledging that they are not.

4. If you think my blog is about the role of PAs in medicine then you have some kind of chip on your shoulder and have zoomed in on a few lines out of literally thousands, ignoring the rest of the blog. (Which is of course your preogative)

5. I wasn't a "Gunnery Sergeant" or "Gunny." I was a "Sergeant," E-5 type which in the Marine Corps, especially in the Infantry is (or was) a pretty big deal even though E-5 is no big deal in the other services. It took me five years to get promoted up that far (meritoriously) which was a little less than the usual time.

P. Bear, MD
Emergency Medicine Resident
Somewhere in the Midwest
 
And my beef is the implication that professional Marines and soldiers are motivated out of fear of being kicked out of the military which plays into the whole stereotype that they are guys who only enlisted because they couldn't do anything else.

I find that view obnoxious because it was not the case when I was a Marine and I bet it's not so now, particularly considering the high retention rates in combat units.
 
Panda Bear said:
3. Duke Family Medicine made no distinction between PAs (and NPs) and physicians as to their roles in the clinic. This is fine, as you would know if you read my blog more carefully, because I believe that most if not all of the field can be handled by midlevels. I was pointing out the hypocrisy of the program which on one hand insisted that physicians were essential to delivering care but at the same time de facto acknowledging that they are not.

This is an important point because the "critics" here have complained that military medicine sucks because they utilize PAs. Your observation is consistent with my previous point that these changes are happening everywhere. The use of non-MD providers is not just a military medicine specific problem.
 
Everybody jockeying for the same 6 blocks of the ghetto. Not much to win or worth fighting for at this point.


IgD said:
This is an important point because the "critics" here have complained that military medicine sucks because they utilize PAs. Your observation is consistent with my previous point that these changes are happening everywhere. The use of non-MD providers is not just a military medicine specific problem.
 
IgD said:
This is an important point because the "critics" here have complained that military medicine sucks because they utilize PAs. Your observation is consistent with my previous point that these changes are happening everywhere. The use of non-MD providers is not just a military medicine specific problem.

1) Military medicine is much less than excellent medicine, not because it uses PAs, but for many other reasons listed elsewhere. Now INPROPPER use of PAs is a military problem, but not the only one or the main problem with milmed. PAs are a huge asset to military medicine, but like anything in life, can be properly or impropperly used.

2) We have PAs and NPs in my current practice and they are great.
 
I agree with you on that USAFdoc.

This war has got alot of PA's working outside of their skill set. Some of it isn't their fault, some of it IS their fault. They buy into all that "mission first" crap and they've already got so much enlisted time invested, they're not going to risk retirement. Some of them are on a real Rambo trip themselves.

Many times I had to evac pt out of AO because I didn't have the training, the equipment, the lab, the imaging ability or the luxury of sitting on a pt for 24 hours to assess, watch and wait. 20 years in practice, you get to know your limits and you start to listen to the anal pucker when it speaks to you.

Some of the docs don't seem to have any idea what it's like outside the hospital in the REST of the army. I often times had some doc on the other end playing stupid house of god type admit blocking, pimping games with me on the radio. The line commander is standing over me asking " what is the ****ing problem ?, just get this guy out of here, we're moving out in 10 mikes." It finally got so bad, the hospital commander on the other end just told me to evac and admit under his name directly and bypass the whole system.

If it sounds like I have a "chip" that is probably why and I'll take ownership of it.

I'm glad I'm out of it. At first I was resentful to my wife for nagging me to get out. Now I kiss her every day and thank her.


USAFdoc said:
1) Military medicine is much less than excellent medicine, not because it uses PAs, but for many other reasons listed elsewhere. Now INPROPPER use of PAs is a military problem, but not the only one or the main problem with milmed. PAs are a huge asset to military medicine, but like anything in life, can be properly or impropperly used.

2) We have PAs and NPs in my current practice and they are great.
 

troubling note from another thread;

Just a little FYI for all the Air Force HPSP. I am attending the SAM course and people that all "high up" on the board for GME came to talk to us today about assignments and applying for the board as Flight Surgeons. They said that everybody that does not get a categorical residency position (Whether preselected or getting a PGY1 position), will automatically become a GMO/Flight Surgeon for a minimum 2 years. In other words, if you don't get selected for residency training in December, you can't re-apply to the board for 2 years. Sorry to tell everybody, but they really need flight surgeons so they are not handing out many deferments for certain residencies. Just a little FYI, I know I didn't like being surprised by the board's decision but out of the current SAM class of ~75 people about 50 people applied for residency and did not get a position and therefore were defaulted to become flight surgeons. Good luck to everyone in the match, regardless.



FYI; interesting article on how to change the military;

http://www.slate.com/id/2120146/
 
site of USAF medicine; had to laugh out loud after reading their advertisement; specifically about quality of life. Please join the military as a family doc if you want to serve no matter what, but DO NOT listen to the lies about the high quality of the system and promises that your own quality of life is high as doc in the USAF. Read numerous entries on SDN site and you will find few to none real life examples of USAF "high quality".

http://www.airforce.com/careers/subcatg.php?catg_id=3&sub_catg_id=1
 
USAFdoc said:
QUOTE]

the below message was just sent to me from a current USAF doc going through the same stuff I went through during my career. This physician asked for my advice.


I am a AF physician who has been at my base for 2+ yrs. This is my first and last assignment (I am a FAP recipient who gets out in xxxx). Here is my problem: All of the other FP docs at my base have either PCS'd or got out. So I am the "senior" FP doc. (2 yrs after My clinic has myself and 2 PA's. (The only other FP doc just deployed). This summer they are replacing two of the other docs with : 1. A brand new PA straight from school (asked me how to find the prostate on a rectal exam). 2. An Internal Med GMO (who told me she went home and cried after she was told she would inherit 1600 patients and would see 22-25 daily. The most she saw in a session as an intern was 5). The job I have been given has been to credential these two and be their "clinical supervisor". I am to do 100% chart reviews and see patients with them if "need be". The SGH says they will take over the empanelments of the recently departed docs (>1500 with high amount of retirees). After computer training they will be expected to see 22-25 patients per day. I have some real reservations--First, there is NO WAY they will be able to handle such a big load right off the bat. (For example, The new PA had 4 patients the other day and I had to see each patient with her because she had clinical questions that demanded me to see the patient--This added no less than 45 mins-1 hour onto my day--just think what will happen in 2 months when she is expected to see 22!) Second, How do I be a preceptor for these guys and also see my patients? Of course, the Flight and Squadron commander have not anticipated this conundrum (because it does not affect them) and were a little shocked when I told them that theses two are in over their heads...They told me to come up with a "supervisor plan" to present (this was after the nurse Squadron commander offered me an hour at the end of the day to "go over patients"). I am now trying to formulate a proposal.

My concern is that the these two new providers will need intensive oversight. I really think they will need me to see 75-80% of their patients based on my experience so far. I am contemplating proposing a 50% schedule for myself so I can help them see their patients (not sure how I will see a full schedule and essentially their whole schedule too). I am also going to suggest that they do not see anywhere near 22 patients until they are ready. Not good for patient care or their professional development. The SGH keeps telling me that 22-25 if his "expectation" for these two. He doesn't get it.

What would you suggest I do? I am very concerned about this situation. They need the help and I do not anticipate the chain giving me the time to do it. I think they will make me continue my schedule and force me to either: stay very late each am and pm OR do a half ass job of precepting while patients and the providers suffer.

I value your opinion--I have read most of your posts--we think alike concerning the deplorable conditions of military med. Your advice would nbe much appreciated. Thanks for your help!
 
USAFdoc said:
USAFdoc said:
QUOTE]

the below message was just sent to me from a current USAF doc going through the same stuff I went through during my career. This physician asked for my advice.


I am a AF physician who has been at my base for 2+ yrs. This is my first and last assignment (I am a FAP recipient who gets out in xxxx). Here is my problem: SNIP

I value your opinion--I have read most of your posts--we think alike concerning the deplorable conditions of military med. Your advice would nbe much appreciated. Thanks for your help!

Since you've already made the decision to get out in the near future, I think you should do what you already know in your heart and head is the RIGHT thing to do for both your patients and non-physician providers: tell management they're HOSED UP.

I mean, what's the worst they can do: give you a career-ending OER? Big deal, you're FIGMO anyway.

Worst case scenario: you're "punished" by finishing your obligated service at a less-than-desirable locale. Highly doubtful.....if you're the only physician left in your department, they won't/can't do that.

Do the right, ethical, moral, SAFE thing: tell your higher-ups exactly how you think your department should be run, and how you see your responsibilities being properly handled. Remember: if something bad happens in your department (especially with a non-physician provider whom you're supervising) and a patient suffers harm, YOU are where the buck stops.
 
USAFdoc said:
USAFdoc said:
QUOTE]

the below message was just sent to me from a current USAF doc going through the same stuff I went through during my career. This physician asked for my advice.


I am a AF physician who has been at my base for 2+ yrs. This is my first . . . . . . OR do a half ass job of precepting while patients and the providers suffer.

I value your opinion--I have read most of your posts--we think alike concerning the deplorable conditions of military med. Your advice would nbe much appreciated. Thanks for your help!

How did you reply to him? This sounds like typical military staffing negligence, and believe me, the Air Force has no monopoly on that. All the same, it is a minefield this doctor is going to have to deal with until EAOS.
 
the below message was just sent to me from a current USAF doc going through the same stuff I went through during my career. This physician asked for my advice.

The situation is a golden opportunity to improve things for military medicine. What you do is engage in diplomacy. Educate your leadership on the situation. Draft a memo explaining your concerns in a professional manner and SET LIMITS. It's your clinic and you are the subject matter expert. Get an opinion from your professional society. Cite literature stating what the optimal patient panel size is for FP. Find out from the state board of licensure what their expectation is for supervision of a PA and GMO. I would recommend finding someone who is experienced in writing EFFECTIVE position papers to review the document. You might be surprised how well things work out if you do it right.
 
IgD said:
The situation is a golden opportunity to improve things for military medicine. What you do is engage in diplomacy. Educate your leadership on the situation. Draft a memo explaining your concerns in a professional manner and SET LIMITS. It's your clinic and you are the subject matter expert. Get an opinion from your professional society. Cite literature stating what the optimal patient panel size is for FP. Find out from the state board of licensure what their expectation is for supervision of a PA and GMO. I would recommend finding someone who is experienced in writing EFFECTIVE position papers to review the document. You might be surprised how well things work out if you do it right.

It is not his clinic...it belongs to the CO...he is only responsible for the patients.....

And the CO doesn't care about his problems....The CO only cares about getting the patients seen so that his metrics can be compared with other CO's...so that he can get promoted or get a ribbon.

The military DOES NOT care about state board of licensure and other such trivial things like that...otherwise, they wouldn't be using GMOs....

You solutions are NOT solutions...They have been tried and They DO NOT WORK.....

Your solution sounds like the kind of solutions that I see Nurse corp commanders come up with....write a position paper, push it up the chain of command....while you neglect your duties...then give yourself a medal for putting in a paper.....which in the end amounts to NOTHING.
 
militarymd said:
You solutions are NOT solutions...They have been tried and They DO NOT WORK.....

The point here is to find someone who is skilled in this arena and who has had success in the past.
 
IgD said:
The point here is to find someone who is to find someone who is skilled in this arena and who has had success in the past.

The 'point' is that this think won't fly no matter how much you pretty it up and staff it correctly.

IgD - as someone with lots of staffing experience (5+ years on 4 star staffs), I can tell you that while you are right in saying that a well written and staffed paper is essential if you want something done, this is only one part things you must do if you want successfully staff the type of letter you are thinking of. Especially one that 'bucks the system', These include:

1. Greasing the skids before you staff your letter. Basically, the letter is the 'icing on the cake'. This individual would already have had many unofficial conversations with those involved with the process before he ever sent the letter up. Letters that don't have the pre-coordination are sent back unsigned with things like 'psm (please see me)' or 'we need to discuss this more' without ever getting acted on.

2. You need to have a power player to help you out. Someone who will push for you. I would always have my O-6 to provide this support. This guy would probably need . . . . the same person he is now having a problem with.

I don't know this guys command situation, but I feel for him. Based on what I have seen, the one he is trying to convince will be ill-affected by the changes he is proposing. It will therefore be nigh impossible to convince him/her to make a huge budget change (which is directed from above and probalby THEY don't even have the authority to change) that will be the 'metric' consequence of implementing his proposals. Have you read that the military is so strapped that they are cutting funding left and right stateside to help fund Iraq?

While I think your ever-positive attitude is commendable, I think you need to look at the real world of how things really get done in the military before you give out such naive advice.
 
IgD said:
The situation is a golden opportunity to improve things for military medicine. What you do is engage in diplomacy. Educate your leadership on the situation. Draft a memo explaining your concerns in a professional manner and SET LIMITS. It's your clinic and you are the subject matter expert. Get an opinion from your professional society. Cite literature stating what the optimal patient panel size is for FP. Find out from the state board of licensure what their expectation is for supervision of a PA and GMO. I would recommend finding someone who is experienced in writing EFFECTIVE position papers to review the document. You might be surprised how well things work out if you do it right.


For once I will try not to be insulting. You seem to have the right idea. What you have absolutely NOTHING of, is operational experience. All of us have been in a similar situation. Nothing he writes including a complaint letter to the IG is going to get anything done other than to set him out as the trouble maker, who is not being part of the team and doing his part. Almost all of us have been in similar situations. Before I became noticed as the outspoken one, I was a model officer, I was selected for promotion below the zone twice before my time was there, (although this may be a typical ploy). When I began to complain, write letters, seek outside employment, my radar image became that of a spruce goose.

You WILL LEARN once you are there, if you care to make the right choice for patient care, it will often times go against your orders, and then you have to see what and who you really are. From your posts, I fear you will be a yes man, and do what you are told. I hope I am wrong.

The whole point of this conversation, is that there is little you can do to change things against an 0-6 who has others over him.

I would do the right thing, write a good letter documenting the potential liabilities and problems, and if he does not back off, go straigt to an IG complaint, and then a direct complaint against your commander. I think its called an article 38. It has to be reviewed by the judge advocate of the base without anybody else getting involved. After that, you send a letter to congress. You will be ostracized, but you will have done the right thing for your career and your patients. Its highly unlikely that they will move you, and you can also request a change of station. Either way, your next 2 years will not be easy. The BIGGEST MOST POSITIVE thing here, is that you can already see light at the end of the tunnel. Its two years and that's it. I know that may not seem like a short time, its not, but its better than 4 yrs or more.

THe best of luck to you, and be true to yourself, and the medical oath that you took. The oath of a phycisian is 100 times more important than the oath you took as an officer, which the military expects you to fullfill first and foremost.

WHY anyone would risk being in this situation after reading these posts is beyond me. WISE UP COLLEGE/MED STUDENTS, this could be your future!!!!!
 
chopper said:
The 'point' is that this think won't fly no matter how much you pretty it up and staff it correctly.

How can you predict the outcome without trying?

I agree with your comments about greasing the skids and getting appropriate support. I referred to that collectively as "diplomacy". The "power player" could be your FP speciality leader or product line leader. I maintain this is a golden opportunity to improve military medicine. It is possible it will fail but at least you tried and gave it your best effort. If done right you will get more respect even if it doesn't go your way. This increases the likelihood of a better outcome next time.

When you go outside your chain of command that is like calling an airstrike. You are forcing the other party into a defensive position. When you call the IG, that is like firing a nuclear bomb. Once you have done that there is no chance for a local diplomatic solution. These actions might also trigger a counter-attack and now the situation is worse then to begin with.
 
IgD said:
How can you predict the outcome without trying?

I agree with your comments about greasing the skids and getting appropriate support. I referred to that collectively as "diplomacy". The "power player" could be your FP speciality leader or product line leader. I maintain this is a golden opportunity to improve military medicine. It is possible it will fail but at least you tried and gave it your best effort. If done right you will get more respect even if it doesn't go your way. This increases the likelihood of a better outcome next time.

When you go outside your chain of command that is like calling an airstrike. You are forcing the other party into a defensive position. When you call the IG, that is like firing a nuclear bomb. Once you have done that there is no chance for a local diplomatic solution. These actions might also trigger a counter-attack and now the situation is worse then to begin with.


I can't help it. Once again comments from someone whom we do not even know what he is. Idg, you have to experience this before you give advice like you know exactly what to do. You have not lived it, probably from your attitude never will. So you've said more than your peace. Let it be. I'm sure the poster can make his decision based on commom sence advice by people who have experienced this, certainly not you. Again.
 
IgD said:
How can you predict the outcome without trying?

I agree with your comments about greasing the skids and getting appropriate support. I referred to that collectively as "diplomacy". The "power player" could be your FP speciality leader or product line leader. I maintain this is a golden opportunity to improve military medicine. It is possible it will fail but at least you tried and gave it your best effort. If done right you will get more respect even if it doesn't go your way. This increases the likelihood of a better outcome next time.

When you go outside your chain of command that is like calling an airstrike. You are forcing the other party into a defensive position. When you call the IG, that is like firing a nuclear bomb. Once you have done that there is no chance for a local diplomatic solution. These actions might also trigger a counter-attack and now the situation is worse then to begin with.

I agree with the assessment that even the threat of official action will poison the working atmosphere, probably irreparably. That isn't to say that is never worth doing, but it should not be the first course of action, and it should be done with the full understanding that things will never be the same after, regardless of the outcome. (BTW, it is called an Article 138.) Along the same lines are asking for a military IG investivgation, requesting mast (Navy here) to the SG to air grievances, requesting a DOD IG investigation or filing a complaint with the DOJ (it has been done), requesting a Congressional investigation directly or through the General Accounting Office, which is the Congress' investigation agency. Anything that suggests an investigation by an authority outside the usual military chain of authority will get a lot of attention very quickly. Yes, these are the bunker-busters.

A letter detailing the request and situation as it appears with a proposal that presumably reduces the supervisor's case load for at least a year, (half-census, at a minimum) perhaps the hiring of civilian personnel, and follow-on administrative time (and not a measly hour; I suggest at least one day per week) for at least a year following the first year after the new personnel arrival would be a minimum proposal. If you have these individuals covering after-hours watches, some similar proposal should be made about that as well.
 
Galo said:
I can't help it. Once again comments from someone whom we do not even know what he is. Idg, you have to experience this before you give advice like you know exactly what to do. You have not lived it, probably from your attitude never will. So you've said more than your peace. Let it be. I'm sure the poster can make his decision based on commom sence advice by people who have experienced this, certainly not you. Again.

When I was a chief resident I delt with this situation all the time. My resident colleagues had legitimate gripes or ideas on how to improve the quality of service. It was my job to make things happen. Sometimes I couldn't make it happen but a lot of times I could. Regardless I never was a loose canon so people respected my positions even if they weren't logisitically possible.
 
IgD said:
How can you predict the outcome without trying?

.


Having seen similar things over and over in the military. And that's what a prediction is, isn't it? If you actually did it, it wouldn't be a prediction but a fact. But, I digress.

I agree with you - it is worth a try at least. And I hope that I'm wrong, and this guy is able to affect some change. But given the situation as described, and the cost involved, I don't see it happening.

I've found that changes are easy to make happen in 2 circumstances:
1. It doesn't cost the person making the decision anything
2. 'On high' is intent on making changes, and opens the purse strings to do it. This is when a savvy individual can thread the needle and get some things done.

I applaud you on your ability to help out your subordinates. And I will admit, there are those that have a knack for 'getting things done'. But I do not see this as a 'golden opportunity to change military medicine'. Not sure where you get that idea from.
 
IgD said:
When I was a chief resident I delt with this situation all the time. My resident colleagues had legitimate gripes or ideas on how to improve the quality of service. It was my job to make things happen. Sometimes I couldn't make it happen but a lot of times I could. Regardless I never was a loose canon so people respected my positions even if they weren't logisitically possible.


To bait you, give us an example of a similar situation in which you dealt with an appropriately worded letter and got your way. You said you did this all the time, but I am only aksing for ONE which in any way resembles the situation that the PHYCISIAN asking for advice is facing.

Regardless of idg's vast knowledge of this (HA), I'm sure all of us on this board would love to hear the outcome of whatever action is taken.

Please keep us updated

Thanks
 
Most of this crap has a name and a face attached to it.

And usually at least a star or two (if you follow it out things out to their true source).

was a "Sergeant," E-5 type which in the Marine Corps, especially in the Infantry is (or was) a pretty big deal even though E-5 is no big deal in the other services. It took me five years to get promoted up that far (meritoriously) which was a little less than the usual time.

The Marines are the ONLY branch of the service I have anything approaching unquestioned respect for their NCO's. As Panda pointed out, they earn their stripes. There's a reason why the most valued coin in my collection is a Marine Corps Commandant's coin that I earned.
 
Galo said:
...give us an example of a similar situation in which you dealt with ... and got your way.

One time the powers that be decided it was going to book appointments under certain providers names even though the person it was booked under had no face to face time with the patient. If you looked in the system you would see one provider had intake evaluations at 1300, 1305 and 1310. This way the person who showed up in the appointmenting system would get double or triple credit. I advocated for change and was successful.
 
IgD said:
One time the powers that be decided it was going to book appointments under certain providers names even though the person it was booked under had no face to face time with the patient. If you looked in the system you would see one provider had intake evaluations at 1300, 1305 and 1310. This way the person who showed up in the appointmenting system would get double or triple credit. I advocated for change and was successful.

I agree with you that some victories are possible, and I did see them as well. For example; finally allowing docs to attend the USAFP annual meeting; finally at least attempting to get backfills for missing docs etc. Still, there are BASIC things missing from todays military medicine DESIGN, and until those things are corrected, you will continue to have numerous clinics operating in FAILURE MODE to the degradation of patient care, staff quality of life and retention.
 
IgD said:
One time the powers that be decided it was going to book appointments under certain providers names even though the person it was booked under had no face to face time with the patient. If you looked in the system you would see one provider had intake evaluations at 1300, 1305 and 1310. This way the person who showed up in the appointmenting system would get double or triple credit. I advocated for change and was successful.

Well, to pick on you, (god knows you deserve it, you are a constant instigator, you pretend to be an expert on everything military, and you've yet to reveal anything about your medical background other than you were some chief resident), I asked for something resembling the problem the poster had. You wrote a letter to change an administrative computer annoyance. How is that in any way near the complexity that involves thousands of patients care, the supervision of a doc, and pa?, medical licensure, medical liability, and most important for the clueless 0-6, his metrics. Sorry, once again you claim and claim, but come up way short. The guy who asked for advice is going to have it hard either way. I'd love to be proven wrong, and see that actually patient care and safety go to the forefront, but I bet most of us who've lived that live seriously doubt anything good will come out of this.

Did you not go back on your meds? Get a clue. Wake up, get your lips from out of the ass of whomever you are trying to militarily impress, and if you truly are a doctor, then begin to act like one first, and an officer second.
 
Galo said:
Sorry, once again you claim and claim, but come up way short...

I realize the example I posted was a bit tame and sanitized. It's just not good form to post dirty laundry on here. The point is change is possible if done right.
 
IgD said:
I realize the example I posted was a bit tame and sanitized. It's just not good form to post dirty laundry on here. The point is change is possible if done right.


The BS flag is raised high once again. The real reason you cant come up with a better example is you do not have one. You have not encoutered a problem so severe that you are or would be willing to put you officership on the line for.

Regardless of you, change is possible. As quoted to me by the person who was deputy surgeon general to Carlton, when I sent of my letters, "change is glacial." We are all advocating for massive change, the type that an organization with a military rank structure is just not capable of making unless there are fundamental changes that the military is just not going to do. The most important aspect which I do not think is possible, is giving physicians without rank the real power to enact change based of medical needs, not needs of the Air Force, (army, navy, etc). Herein lies probably the most fundamentally impossible challenge. In the mean time, the most ovious solution is to let the dangers, problems, of military medicine become widely known to those innocent, ignorant people like I once was, that are now the life blood of the system. When there is not enough people to run it, someone will come to the realization that fundamental change needs to occur, and hopefully enact it.

In the mean time, people like this family practicioner who are interested in doing the right thing for patient care, are going to come up against ridiculous requests that will continue to harm, or potentially harm military members and their dependents.
 
IgD said:
The point is change is possible if done right.


Absolutely. I don't think everyone agrees on what 'done right' is. lol

Hey - did we find something that we can all agree on? We'll just wait on the definition of 'done right' until a later date.
 
Galo said:
Regardless of you, change is possible. As quoted to me by the person who was deputy surgeon general to Carlton, when I sent of my letters, "change is glacial." We are all advocating for massive change, the type that an organization with a military rank structure is just not capable of making unless there are fundamental changes that the military is just not going to do.



change is "glacial" only if that is what the people in charge decide it will be. Glacial change is just a poor excuse not to do the right thing. I would guarentee you that if "all of military medicine", especially the care of dependents and retirees, became public knowledge, change would NOT be glacial, it would be tsunami. The problem is that "military culture" (and the HPSP pipeline) enables the status quo to persist. :idea:
 
USAFdoc said:
excellent discussion of physician retention and how poor retention effects a healthcare system. Not explicitely military, but the principles are the same. Somebody please forward this to the Surgeon General (if you are into wasting time).

http://www.admhealthcareconsulting.com/Docs/TragicFolly.pdf

The difference between a civilian model and a government model of health care deliver is the resource consumer mentality: loss of physicians is a good thing. Personnel costs go down the amount of healthcare delivered drops. The amount of prescriptions filled by the MTF also decrease. The line is happy because they can buy more bombs and planes. Perhaps the expense gets shifted onto someone else.

The problem with this mentality is its extremely myopic and misses the big picture.

We can win battles here and there but I believe the reality of the resource consumer mentality is what we are up against. How do you combat that? We are basically a socialized system. Even the surgeon general of each branch has to be accountable to someone above him in terms of budget. He can't just say "I'm going to double physician salaries". The DoD would collapse.
 
IgD said:
The difference between a civilian model and a government model of health care deliver is the resource consumer mentality: loss of physicians is a good thing. Personnel costs go down the amount of healthcare delivered drops. The amount of prescriptions filled by the MTF also decrease. The line is happy because they can buy more bombs and planes. Perhaps the expense gets shifted onto someone else.

The problem with this mentality is its extremely myopic and misses the big picture.

We can win battles here and there but I believe the reality of the resource consumer mentality is what we are up against. How do you combat that? We are basically a socialized system. Even the surgeon general of each branch has to be accountable to someone above him in terms of budget. He can't just say "I'm going to double physician salaries". The DoD would collapse.

Start by:

1) get rid of Cow manders
2) civilian consultant to all MTFs....and then listen to said consultants
3) every nurse who doesn't clean bed pans gets fired...or moved to Iraq


You probably think I'm being sarcastic....but I'm not....do the above, and you will free up considerable amount of funds.....


4) freed up funds doesn't disappear into the "use it or lose it" pool.
 
militarymd said:
Start by:

1) get rid of Cow manders
2) civilian consultant to all MTFs....and then listen to said consultants
3) every nurse who doesn't clean bed pans gets fired...or moved to Iraq


You probably think I'm being sarcastic....but I'm not....do the above, and you will free up considerable amount of funds.....


4) freed up funds doesn't disappear into the "use it or lose it" pool.

But that will never happen...because Cow manders like their corner offices....doctors come and go.....Cow manders are here to stay.


So when will things change.....when doctors don't come and only go.

Because Cow manders are really good for nothing.....NOTHING.
 
IgD said:
The difference between a civilian model and a government model of health care deliver is the resource consumer mentality: loss of physicians is a good thing. Personnel costs go down the amount of healthcare delivered drops. The amount of prescriptions filled by the MTF also decrease.

Wrong!

what happened at our base is every remaining doc was now covering for 3000-6000 patients instead of 1000 patients. Scripts still get filled, just that patients can't get appointments.

Doctors leaving does not save money, it cost money as novice PAs and docs, and problems with non-continuity causes more unneccesary tests, labs etc
 
And after being on this site for 1-2 years, I am still waiting for the FIRST USAF primary care doc (actually any services primary care doc) to describe good healthcare system from their experience.
 
militarymd said:
But that will never happen...because Cow manders like their corner offices....doctors come and go.....Cow manders are here to stay.


Actually, that's not really true: even "cow-manders" rotate out after a 2-3 year tour. This, in fact, is one of the biggest problems with military medicine, i.e., the lack of continuity. Cow-manders can get away with all kinds of crap in the short term because they know they'll be retired or PCS'd and won't be around when the spit hits the fan a couple years down the road. If you want better management, keep medical/hospital command groups in place for at least 5 years, so that they are put in a postion of having to reap what they sow. You'd probably see some interesting changes once they are more invested in the outcome of their decisions.

X-RMD, no longer dodging those cow-mander patties!
 
R-Me-Doc said:
Actually, that's not really true: even "cow-manders" rotate out after a 2-3 year tour. This, in fact, is one of the biggest problems with military medicine, i.e., the lack of continuity. Cow-manders can get away with all kinds of crap in the short term because they know they'll be retired or PCS'd and won't be around when the spit hits the fan a couple years down the road. If you want better management, keep medical/hospital command groups in place for at least 5 years, so that they are put in a postion of having to reap what they sow. You'd probably see some interesting changes once they are more invested in the outcome of their decisions.

X-RMD, no longer dodging those cow-mander patties!

What I mean is that they will never leave the system....so they continue on their way up into the chain of command to make things worse....whereas doctors separate....and don't move up.
 
just a little humor; the relevancy is that the USAF runs its primary care clinics similar to the "American rowing team" in this joke....lots of commanders, lots of commanders getting awards for nothing, lots of metric counters etc......how about just sending a few more "rowers" (docs)!!!!!!!!!

Today's Joke
The Americans and The Japanese
The Americans and the Japanese decided to engage in a competitive boat race. Both teams practiced hard and long to reach their peak performance. On the big day the Japanese won by a mile.

The American team was discouraged by the loss. Morale sagged. Corporate management decided that the reason for the crushing defeat had to be found, so a consulting firm was hired to investigate the problem and recommend corrective action.

The consultant's finding: The Japanese team had eight people rowing and one person steering; the American team had one person rowing and eight people steering.

After a year of study and millions spent analyzing the problem, the American team's management structure was completely reorganized.

The new structure: four steering managers, three area steering managers, and a new performance review system for the person rowing the boat to provide work incentive.

The next year, the Japanese won by two miles!

Humiliated, the American corporation laid off the rower for poor performance and gave the managers a bonus for discovering the problem.



Lastly; just had to add this memo from another thread; great insight to what USAF leadership is like. I saw little to no corruption, but alot of ambition on all levels.


One of the most interesting things I got out of college was during a political science course...I read one historian (wish I could remember who) who said that people's relationship with any political institution occurs in four stages:

Idealism - one first encounters/enters the system full of enthusiasm and bright ideas to make things better. Young congressman, young HPSPer, etc.

Pragmatism - after a significant amount of time/experience in the system, the person realizes that most of their initial ideas are either extremely difficult or impossible to accomplish because of various obstacles within the system. The person adjusts their goals and now tries to accomplish what parts of their initial ideas seem feasible.

Ambition - after the person has invested a significant amount of time and effort into the system, his viewpoint begins to shift from promoting those ideals he initially entered the system with to promoting his own interests and career. He has now learned the system well and therefore becomes resistant to change, because his hard-earned knowledge of the system is what will allow his advancement. Ironically, he may even become one of the obstacles to change that the current idealists entering the system are encountering.

Corruption - the final stage, and this does not necessarily happen to everyone. It occurs when the person's viewpoint shifts completely to his own interests and he begins to exploit the system for purposes that the system was never intended for. The congressman takes bribes for certain legislation, a president hands out pardons to criminal cronies, etc.
🙁
 
R-Me-Doc said:
Actually, that's not really true: even "cow-manders" rotate out after a 2-3 year tour. This, in fact, is one of the biggest problems with military medicine, i.e., the lack of continuity. Cow-manders can get away with all kinds of crap in the short term because they know they'll be retired or PCS'd and won't be around when the spit hits the fan a couple years down the road. If you want better management, keep medical/hospital command groups in place for at least 5 years, so that they are put in a postion of having to reap what they sow. You'd probably see some interesting changes once they are more invested in the outcome of their decisions.

X-RMD, no longer dodging those cow-mander patties!

good points; I recall one of our commander's; probably a nice lady, but can't say one thing she did during her tour except get some award about her role in implementing "open-access", something she basically played no part in and was a terrible failure anyways. You can't have open access if you have no docs in the clinic (staff was supposed to be 31 personnel, many days 7 actually there).
 
Below is a interesting article about medicine in general. I have certainly been a harsh critic about USAF Primary care, but I also know (partly because I am now a civilian FP) that civilian medicine has its problems much like military primary care has (only the military problems dwarf the civilian ones in comparison...and if you are civilian, you have the option to leave almost immediately if the system become that bad). ENJOY (from Medical Economics)


Memo from the Editor


A resident reacts

Aug 4, 2006
By: Marianne Dekker Mattera
Medical Economics




In June, I suggested in this memo that healthcare costs might not be as high if insurance company executives didn't have multimillion-dollar compensation packages. Robert Whelan, a resident who finished his training at Wake Forest University in June, e-mailed me with his own perspective on the costs of healthcare and what's in it for young physicians. I'd like to share those thoughts with you.

"In medical school I spent easily 80 hours/wk in classes or studying. I completed a preliminary year in general surgery the year before the 80 hour/wk work rule took effect. Not one week had less than 120 hours of hospital responsibilities; most were between 125 and 135 hours. Our general surgery residency program boasted a 100 percent divorce rate among its residents before graduation. The three years of my anesthesiology residency has required approximately 80 hours a week of hospital and homework.

"As I graduate, I have approximately $170,000 in student debt from my medical school training alone. Before attending medical school, I worked full time and had nearly completed my MBA. That business background gives me a clear appreciation of what a different financial situation I'd be in now had I applied 80 to 90 hours a week over the last eight years to a career in health care administration.

"Many other trades and professions provide more income per hour of work than many medical specialties—including pediatrics, family medicine, internal medicine, and general surgery. Without the fear of being sued for an outcome beyond their control. And the day that Medicare/Medicaid reimbursement became less than the cost of treating those patients was a day of darkness for the healthcare profession. Physicians are voluntarily one of the most philanthropic professions, but our philanthropy should not be mandated by the lack of government reimbursement.

"While I do not regret my choices, it will be increasingly difficult to expect talented individuals to make this sacrifice in the future, especially given the financial uncertainties that accompany life as a physician."

Many experts predict a shortage of physicians by 2020; judging by recruiting efforts, there's already one in primary care. So Dr. Whelan's fears may certainly prove true. Yet in 2004 we asked doctors—the people who know exactly what practicing in today's climate entails—whether they'd recommend the profession to their children. Six in 10 said Yes. The American people can only hope that fathers and mothers continue to hold medicine out as a worthy—and worthwhile—profession. And that their children listen to them.
 
FYI: article on retention of neurosurgeon in the military. Much of the info relates to other specialties as well;

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/433291_4

Retention of Neurosurgeons
Retention of active-duty, experienced, productive neurosurgeons has historically been extremely difficult. Although many outstanding neurosurgeons have come through the military, they rarely stay beyond their training commitment. The high quality of military neurosurgeons is clearly reflected by their career paths after leaving active service. Many leaders of neurosurgery, both in the academic and the private practice arenas, have begun their neurosurgical careers in uniform.
There are many reasons why neurosurgeons do not continue to serve the military once their service obligation for training has ended. The most obvious is the extreme pay gap between the standard civilian neurosurgery practice and military practice. When an active-duty uniformed neurosurgeon finishes residency training, he/she becomes a major in the Air Force and Army, or a lieutenant commander in the Navy, and his/her total pay and allowances is approximately $100,000 per year. If that neurosurgeon serves a full 20-year career and advances to full colonel or Navy captain, then he/she can expect a yearly salary of approximately $150,000.[1] He or she can then retire with a pension of approximately $40,000 to 45,000 per year, which is then adjusted for inflation.[1] From data obtained from 2001 the MGMA Physician Compensation and Production Survey and the 2001 MGMA Academic Practice Faculty Compensation and Production Survey, the median salary of a private-practice neurosurgeon in the US is $410,593. The median salary for a neurosurgeon in an academic position is $275,000. According to Physician Search, an online medical manpower recruiter, in 2000 the mean salary for all neurosurgeons at least 3 years out of training practicing in the US was $438,000.

Military pay is broken down into three components. Basic Pay, the base salary for any military officer, is based on rank and time in service. Two bonuses include Medical Specialty Pay, which is $15,000 given yearly to all physicians, and ISP, which is an additional bonus based on medical specialty. The ISP is currently $36,000 for neurosurgeons. A third bonus option is the Multi-year Additional Specialty Pay, which ranges from $8,000 to 14,000 per year for those who agree to remain in uniform 2 to 4 years beyond any prior service obligation. There are also nontaxable allowances such as Basic Allowance for Subsistence, Basic Allowance for Quarters, and Variable Housing Allowance, which provide additional funds for housing in areas in which the cost of living is higher than average. For those that live overseas and are affected by currency fluctuations, there is Cost of Living Allowance that changes every 2 weeks based on the exchange rate between the US dollar and the local currency. All military members receive the same allowances based on rank and duty station. Other benefits include the aforementioned retirement plan, free health care, reasonable dental and life insurance packages, and a newly authorized thrift savings retirement plan option. Unfortunately, all the neurosurgery-related professional fees, organizational dues, and journals, must be paid by the individual neurosurgeon, further decreasing the military neurosurgeon's actual salary.

Prior to the mid-1980s all military officers were paid approximately the same for rank and time in service. Largely through the work of neurosurgeons Captain Robert Harris, MC USN(ret), and Colonel Eugene George, MC USA(ret), the ISP described was instituted to decrease the wide pay gap that made retention impossible, especially for the surgical subspecialties. The actual pay total was varied based on the subspecialty and the relative need for that subspecialty throughout the services. Congress mandated that the highest yearly amount any specialty group could receive was $36,000. The bonus pay did serve to improve morale within the neurosurgical ranks, but in reality it was inadequate to bridge the wide pay gap. Neither recruitment nor retention was significantly improved. Since that time many other subspecialties have received increases in the ISP to the maximum rate. Because this maximum rate has not increased over the last 15 years, most surgical subspecialists and many nonsurgeons currently receive the same level of compensation as the neurosurgeon. One decade ago the Army had 28 practicing neurosurgeons on active duty; today, because of retention difficulty, there are 17.

When there is a shortage of neurosurgeons in service, contracts are given to civilian neurosurgeons. These contracts are usually quite reasonable, as yearly salaries range from $300,000 to 400,000. Although essential for the delivery of care, these contracts frequently have a detrimental effect on morale for the uniformed neurosurgical personnel. Civilian-contract neurosurgeons often have restricted duty hours and fewer administrative duties, no readiness requirements, and no deployment responsibilities despite the fact that they receive substantially higher reimbursement.

Another factor affecting the retention of neurosurgeons in the Armed Forces is the lack of support personnel, such as nurses, physician assistants, and administrative assistants. Because military neurosurgeons must complete many routine clerical duties themselves, their efficiency as surgeons is decreased compared with their colleagues in the civilian world. The average civilian neurosurgeon performs approximately 250 procedures a year. In the military most neurosurgeons perform only 100 to 200 procedures. This is largely the result of operating room time limitations and the decreased support infrastructure, which burden the neurosurgeon with routine administrative obligations associated with the care of each patient. Typically there are three to four support personnel per each neurosurgeon in an efficient civilian practice. In many military treatment facilities, one clerical person supports two to four neurosurgeons. Neurosurgeons frequently type their own letters and clean their own examination rooms. Although these duties clearly need to be performed, a neurosurgeon can be much more efficient if allowed to spend more time directly care for patients. Such inefficiencies are detrimental to the morale of neurosurgeons who have been trained to be very efficient and effective. Recent experience at Walter Reed Army Medical Center revealed that with the addition of physician assistants, nurse practitioners, and nurse case managers, the efficiency of the neurosurgical service increased dramatically without an increase in the number of neurosurgeons. In most medical communities, neurosurgeons are seen as revenue generators and accordingly are provided with support infrastructure. The fixed budgetary realm of military medicine is sometimes challenged by the expense of supporting complex neurological services with equipment and personnel. Fortunately, the hospital commanders uniformly desire to provide quality state-of-the-art care to all the patients, and the military neurosurgeon will generally be supported in efforts to obtain equipment and resources.

Although the slow bureaucratic processes remain a frequent source of dissatisfaction, most MTFs at which neurosurgeons practice are superbly equipped with state-of-the-art equipment and instrumentation.

More recently, surgery-related case volume has become an issue in some military hospitals. Because the new TRI-CARE program of care and because of a fleet of aging medical transport aircraft, some neurosurgical cases traditionally performed in military MTFs have been undertaken instead by civilian neurosurgeons. This process has evolved differently depending on locations and has contributed to downsizing and even eliminating neurosurgical care at some military hospitals. In a few isolated instances, newly graduated military neurosurgeons have found difficulty accumulating adequate cases to qualify for the oral boards. Low case volume also has implications regarding maintenance of competency. Just as the aviators must keep flying to hone their skills, neurosurgeons must perform a reasonable number of procedures to maintain surgical capabilities. In some isolated commands, the issue may be more related to a lack of operating room availability than patient caseload.

With decreased retention there are fewer individual neurosurgical bodies to meet operational and deployment requirements, which increases the deployment rate for those few on active duty, resulting in more time spent away from family and practice. Some deployment and overseas assignments can be seen as desirable, but others are significantly less desirable. Many neurosurgeons consider the increased deployment tempo a significant disincentive to being in the military.

At present there are only three O-6 (colonel in Army and Air Force or captain in Navy) neurosurgeons on active duty, of whom only one is in full-time clinical practice. Because no neurosurgeons stay beyond their training obligation and because those with training obligations come right after training, only 12 of the 38 active-duty neurosurgeons are board certified. Clearly, the military lacks adequate staffing with senior neurosurgeons who offer the complex and critical corporate knowledge of military neurosurgical experience. The Society of Medical Consultants to the Armed Forces strives to bring that experience and expertise to the Army, Navy, and Air Force Surgeons General. This is a dedicated group representing experienced senior military and civilian physicians from all specialties who meet annually to advise the Surgeons General and senior service leadership on military medical-related matters. A number of civilian neurosurgeons and one active military neurosurgeon are currently members of this society.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top