AVOID MILITARY MEDICINE if possible

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What a shocker!.... sounds like the neurosurgeons need to read dogfacemedic's post about the troops needing them rather than whining about the disparity between civilian and military neurosurgeons' compensation and support staff. Perhaps... a six week basic training course would improve morale.... what the AF would call "re-blueing".
 
the median salary of a private-practice neurosurgeon in the US is $410,593. The median salary for a neurosurgeon in an academic position is $275,000.

Holy ****ing Christ.....screw EM, I'm going to go open peoples skulls for a living and perfect my technique of saying "I'm sorry, we got in there and realize there's nothing we can do. I'm so sorry." :laugh:
 
a six week basic training course would improve morale.... what the AF would call "re-blueing".

My commander threatened to do that to me. I told her that if she thought I had a ****ty attitude before, wait until I got done with that. :laugh:
 
USAFdoc said:
Lastly; just had to add this memo from another thread; great insight to what USAF leadership is like. I saw little to no corruption, but alot of ambition on all levels.


One of the most interesting things I got out of college was during a political science course...I read one historian (wish I could remember who) who said that people's relationship with any political institution occurs in four stages:

Idealism - one first encounters/enters the system full of enthusiasm and bright ideas to make things better. Young congressman, young HPSPer, etc.

Pragmatism - after a significant amount of time/experience in the system, the person realizes that most of their initial ideas are either extremely difficult or impossible to accomplish because of various obstacles within the system. The person adjusts their goals and now tries to accomplish what parts of their initial ideas seem feasible.

Ambition - after the person has invested a significant amount of time and effort into the system, his viewpoint begins to shift from promoting those ideals he initially entered the system with to promoting his own interests and career. He has now learned the system well and therefore becomes resistant to change, because his hard-earned knowledge of the system is what will allow his advancement. Ironically, he may even become one of the obstacles to change that the current idealists entering the system are encountering.

Corruption - the final stage, and this does not necessarily happen to everyone. It occurs when the person's viewpoint shifts completely to his own interests and he begins to exploit the system for purposes that the system was never intended for. The congressman takes bribes for certain legislation, a president hands out pardons to criminal cronies, etc.
🙁

I believe I skipped the first two steps and was only in the first stage for maybe two weeks before becoming "corrupt". :laugh:
 
I think you mean "rotten" not corrupt. 😉
DropkickMurphy said:
I believe I skipped the first two steps and was only in the first stage for maybe two weeks before becoming "corrupt". :laugh:
 
Despite what you may say, the reason the hospitals and clinics are understaffed is not because the system sucks and there are so many Naive pre-meds singing the praises of military medicine. It is because the HPSP program is where the military primarily gets it's physicians and there is a war going on so no one wants to take a scholarship even though they will not be involved in it for at least 8 years. There will continue to be a decline in the number of physicians to staff clinics and an increase in PAs as long as military physicians continue to bash the service on forums like this inadvertently doing harm to their own staffing and support by discouraging others from applying for the scholarship. Cause and effect ( kill HPSP, Kill staff numbers).

Money, money, money where in the Hippocratic oath or Osteopathic oath does it mention money? Most students go to medical school idealistic and wanting to help people and graduate from residency just wanting to get paid big bucks after talking to self-centered chief residents who only want to get paid. Go figure.
 
bliss72 said:
Despite what you may say, the reason the hospitals and clinics are understaffed is not because the system sucks and there are so many Naive pre-meds singing the praises of military medicine. It is because the HPSP program is where the military primarily gets it's physicians and there is a war going on so no one wants to take a scholarship even though they will not be involved in it for at least 8 years. There will continue to be a decline in the number of physicians to staff clinics and an increase in PAs as long as military physicians continue to bash the service on forums like this inadvertently doing harm to their own staffing and support by discouraging others from applying for the scholarship. Cause and effect ( kill HPSP, Kill staff numbers).

Money, money, money where in the Hippocratic oath or Osteopathic oath does it mention money? Most students go to medical school idealistic and wanting to help people and graduate from residency just wanting to get paid big bucks after talking to self-centered chief residents who only want to get paid. Go figure.

So basically, you're saying doctors have no desire to serve anyone or anything and only care about money. If I were you, I'd refrain from making such negative comments on a forum full of physicians. You might be an Army nurse and an "HPSP Counselor" (whatever that is) but you clearly have not yet seen anything from the perspective of a doctor, and on top of that you don't seem to have really read all the warnings the naysayers have posted here.

Our medical system is broken across the board - both in the civilian and military worlds. When reimbursements are so poor that you have doctors loosing money for performing certain procedures and treatments, clearly something is wrong. The list of problems could go on forever. Sure, many do loose some of their altruism and become bitter, but I guarantee almost any of those doctors you're heard complain about money would happily take a pay cut if you gave them a practice with a satisfying case load, free of paperwork and legal hassles.

And if you really read all the negative posts here, probably the thing that gets complained about the least is military service. In fact, I think its fair to say that even the most negative people here would love to serve in the war effort if they could just just be doctors and not have to put up with all the beuracratic hassles.
 
bliss72 said:
Despite what you may say, the reason the hospitals and clinics are understaffed is not because the system sucks and there are so many Naive pre-meds singing the praises of military medicine. It is because the HPSP program is where the military primarily gets it's physicians and there is a war going on so no one wants to take a scholarship even though they will not be involved in it for at least 8 years. There will continue to be a decline in the number of physicians to staff clinics and an increase in PAs as long as military physicians continue to bash the service on forums like this inadvertently doing harm to their own staffing and support by discouraging others from applying for the scholarship. Cause and effect ( kill HPSP, Kill staff numbers).

Do not take this personal, but you are way off the mark.
1) Forums like this are NOT why there are staffing problems. Staffing problems have been years in the making; and also the result of our Surgeon General believing you can do more and more with less and less indefinetly. The Primary Care Optimization Program more than doubled our patient panel sizes, and the support staff promised never came, and the docs that left were never replaced. 20,000 patients to take care of stayed.

2) Current military and civilian medicine are under the gun in terms of $$$$$.
The problem in military medicine is that the physicians have ZERO say in what is happening. If the Commander wakes up and says that you no longer have 2000 patients to care for, you now have 6000; well, what are you going to do? The military owns you and basically your liscence too. If they say the will replace every doc but you with novice PAs (under your liscence), what are you going to do? They own you.

Military Primary care medicine always had problems with staffing, continuity, experience etc.....in 2006, they now have all those problems with the added pressure of deployments, further undermanning, PAs replacing MDs, TRICARE and a surgeon general that thinks his clinic can out perform the best civilian clinic despite providing depleted staff, worse admin redtape, etc........its a system designed to fail, and it is failing.


I believe as long as the HPSP pipeline runs well, the Surgeon General will continue to run the clinics into the ground. When the well runs dry, he will have to change the way HE does business.I eventually expect to see much of the whole system civilianized because USAF senior leadership does not have the wisdom it will take to right the ship. They are about METRICS, MICROMANAGING, and MEDALS (promotion). (not all leadership, but enough to prevent change).
 
bliss72 said:
Despite what you may say, the reason the hospitals and clinics are understaffed is not because the system sucks and there are so many Naive pre-meds singing the praises of military medicine. It is because the HPSP program is where the military primarily gets it's physicians and there is a war going on so no one wants to take a scholarship even though they will not be involved in it for at least 8 years. There will continue to be a decline in the number of physicians to staff clinics and an increase in PAs as long as military physicians continue to bash the service on forums like this inadvertently doing harm to their own staffing and support by discouraging others from applying for the scholarship. Cause and effect ( kill HPSP, Kill staff numbers).

Money, money, money where in the Hippocratic oath or Osteopathic oath does it mention money? Most students go to medical school idealistic and wanting to help people and graduate from residency just wanting to get paid big bucks after talking to self-centered chief residents who only want to get paid. Go figure.


You are wrong. HPSP was in decline in numbers and quality for years before the present war, in fact for years before the attacks on 11 September, 2001. Average HPSP MCAT scores, which a decade ago and before were representative of highly-competitive applicants at many better medical schools (and I mean the Columbia, Harvard and Duke class) had progressively sunk to the minimum scores necessary for admission to any allopathic schools. The HPSP class was skewed toward osteopathic schools in percentages greater than the ratio of osteopathic to allopathic graduates in the country as a whole. The military was losing the fight on applicant quality well before any of the recent conflicts took place. All of this occurred while civilian practice reimbursement became relatively static and while tuition and expense costs at both private and state-funded medical schools skyrocketed. You would think those factors alone would make a program that made a nearly all-expense-paid medical school education available would have been at least as successful as it had been in the past, but the reverse was true. Why? There are several reasons why, but it wasn't because of a war.

The military has been abandoning its commitment to quality care through quality training in a piecemeal fashion for over a decade. Hospital-based training in the military was once far more available than it is today, as the population of patients included not only active-duty but families of active-duty, retirees and their family members as well. At one time it was not at all unusual to see octogenarians at a Naval hospital who had never had any medical care outside the military system. Residency programs were larger and more robust than today and there was no shortage of pathology to provide a foundation for excellent training in most disciplines. It was unnecessary to send residents away to civilian institutions for many disciplines, and those that did send residents out of service did so in far fewer numbers than today.

The ascendance of cost-cutting as the primary motivator of upper-level military medical department management led to a train of strategies that reduced the demand for services placed on military medical facilities. As the patients were shunted to civilian providers, the case load for trainees dried up, and many residency programs languished (don't let those who would mislead by quoting board scores fool you, case numbers and quality are closely linked, and military case numbers were falling hard). As time passed, military training opportunities declined in number and also in reputation for quality. Once-respected hospitals closed (Oak Knoll, Letterman). One could no longer assume an exceptional experience from military hospital training.

While training opportunities were declining, the military was doing other things to make doctors think life was better outside the base fence. In the early 1980s, a service-wide change in calculation of officer pay was initiated under the DOPMA legislation. This created a two-tier pay scale for medical department officers who entered after 1982. Instead of gaining time-in-service credit from the date of first commissioning, usually at the beginning of medical school, all medical officers started as O-3 with zero years. The pay difference between that and being an O-3 with 4 years was significant and the difference lasted throughout the officer's career, as was the loss of the ability to count those 4 years in medical school directly toward fulfillment of a minimum 20-year retirement commitment. So a career-long lower pay scale and a longer period of minimum service to retirement. Not just a bite, but a career-long chewing. Add to that, the benefits of a full retirement became ever more dubious: lower retirement pay, later retirement, and disenfranchisement from the benefits of military medical care system under CHAMPUS (then) and TRICARE (now). It was enough to make some people want to . . . quit.
 
Hospital-based training in the military was once far more available than it is today, as the population of patients included not only active-duty but families of active-duty, retirees and their family members as well. At one time it was not at all unusual to see octogenarians at a Naval hospital who had never had any medical care outside the military system.
Well, I don't know where YOU work, but I still see octogenarians every day. One ole geezer I saw in clinic last month was a medal of honor winner.
 
RichL025 said:
Well, I don't know where YOU work, but I still see octogenarians every day. One ole geezer I saw in clinic last month was a medal of honor winner.

If that is what it takes to stay in the military medical system after discharge, then you have made my case for me. I thank you.
 
RichL025 said:
Well, I don't know where YOU work, but I still see octogenarians every day. One ole geezer I saw in clinic last month was a medal of honor winner.

At my last base, we closed the Internal Med clinic and all those patients were just tranfered to Family Medicine (as were half of the Ped clinic pts to to lack of Pediatricians). Most all pts 65 years old or less. A few patients 65 years and older with little to no health insurance that we saw for free (usually they were the mother of a troop etc).

Thank God most patients were 65 yo or younger, because they are usually healthy enough to live through getting poor medical care. I witnessed first hand numerous abnormal labs (blood sugars 400, anemic, etc) and the patients were never told. Thankfully they were all alive and kicking by the time I saw them and corrected the problem. If they had been 79 yo with CHF, who knows what would have happened. 😱
 
unbelievable thread below. When I was USAF active duty, they were actually listing FP docs as eligible for early outs (a few of us applied and were shot down by our Commander. Also, a good FP friend of mine was told by his detailer, the USAF would rather he separate than let him xfer to flight med. Now, less than one year latetr, this is what the SG has to say. Basically, this is all more evidence that senior USAF staff leadership has very little clue. Good luck for all of you just getting out of the USAF HPSP pipeline.


DEPARTMENT OF THE AIR FORCE
HEADQUARTERS UNITED STATES AIR FORCE
WASHINGTON DC
30 May 2006
MEMORANDUM FOR OBLIGATED AIR FORCE OFFICERS (4TH YEAR MEDICAL
STUDENTS) APPLYING TO THE 2006 JOINT SERVICE
GRADUATE MEDICAL EDUCATION SELECTION BOARD (JSGMESB)
FROM: HQ USAF/SG
1780 Air Force Pentagon
Washington, DC 20330-1780

SUBJECT: Critical Shortfall in AFMS Flight Surgeons - Interim Policy

The Air Force is facing a critical shortfall in aerospace medicine. We are having
difficulty meeting the operational needs of our war fighting squadrons. Flight Surgeons provide much of the first-line support to our flyers and their families. Active Duty physicians in specialties that are already optimally manned have been actively encouraged to consider a career broadening tour as an operational flight surgeon. In spite of our efforts the shortfall remains.

We will be re-instating a policy utilized in the mid 1990’s in order to ameliorate this
situation,. Under this policy, individuals who apply for and/or are selected for a PGY-1 year only will automatically be required to complete the six-week Aerospace Medicine Primary course and a two-year tour as a Flight Surgeon immediately following completion of their PGY-1 year. This policy will apply to individuals who meet the 2006 JSGMESB and is not waiverable. Individuals who are unable to pass a Flying Class II physical will be assigned to a primary care environment for a two-year period. This requirement must be completed before proceeding with the residency training of your choice.

This policy will be in effect for the current year only unless specifically extended. It will
not affect individuals who apply for and/or who are selected for a categorical residency program. It will not affect individuals applying for fellowship training. In order to obtain subsequent graduate medical training you will need to apply to a future JSGMESB. Successful completion of an operational tour almost always makes an otherwise well qualified candidate even more competitive. This often translates into a significant benefit when applying for highly competitive residency programs.

I regret having to institute these limitations, but providing operational support to the
ongoing war on terror is vital to the security of our nation and our beneficiaries. If you have any questions regarding this policy, my points of contact are Colonel Molly Hall Chief Physician Education Branch at DSN 665-2638, Commercial (210) 565-2638 or her deputy, Mrs. Geiger at 1800 531-5800, Commercial (210) 565-2638.
GEORGE PEACH TAYLOR, JR.
Lieutenant General, USAF, MC, CFS
Surgeon General
 
USAFdoc said:
Policy reinstatement

Yay, now USAF will be just the same as Navy as far as GMO tours go. Kind of...
 
USAFdoc said:
unbelievable thread below. When I was USAF active duty, they were actually listing FP docs as eligible for early outs (a few of us applied and were shot down by our Commander. Also, a good FP friend of mine was told by his detailer, the USAF would rather he separate than let him xfer to flight med. Now, less than one year latetr, this is what the SG has to say. Basically, this is all more evidence that senior USAF staff leadership has very little clue. Good luck for all of you just getting out of the USAF HPSP pipeline.


DEPARTMENT OF THE AIR FORCE
HEADQUARTERS UNITED STATES AIR FORCE
WASHINGTON DC
30 May 2006
MEMORANDUM FOR OBLIGATED AIR FORCE OFFICERS (4TH YEAR MEDICAL
STUDENTS) APPLYING TO THE 2006 JOINT SERVICE
GRADUATE MEDICAL EDUCATION SELECTION BOARD (JSGMESB)
FROM: HQ USAF/SG
1780 Air Force Pentagon
Washington, DC 20330-1780

SUBJECT: Critical Shortfall in AFMS Flight Surgeons - Interim Policy

The Air Force is facing a critical shortfall in aerospace medicine. We are having
difficulty meeting the operational needs of our war fighting squadrons. Flight Surgeons provide much of the first-line support to our flyers and their families. Active Duty physicians in specialties that are already optimally manned have been actively encouraged to consider a career broadening tour as an operational flight surgeon. In spite of our efforts the shortfall remains.

We will be re-instating a policy utilized in the mid 1990’s in order to ameliorate this
situation,. Under this policy, individuals who apply for and/or are selected for a PGY-1 year only will automatically be required to complete the six-week Aerospace Medicine Primary course and a two-year tour as a Flight Surgeon immediately following completion of their PGY-1 year. This policy will apply to individuals who meet the 2006 JSGMESB and is not waiverable. Individuals who are unable to pass a Flying Class II physical will be assigned to a primary care environment for a two-year period. This requirement must be completed before proceeding with the residency training of your choice.

This policy will be in effect for the current year only unless specifically extended. It will
not affect individuals who apply for and/or who are selected for a categorical residency program. It will not affect individuals applying for fellowship training. In order to obtain subsequent graduate medical training you will need to apply to a future JSGMESB. Successful completion of an operational tour almost always makes an otherwise well qualified candidate even more competitive. This often translates into a significant benefit when applying for highly competitive residency programs.

I regret having to institute these limitations, but providing operational support to the
ongoing war on terror is vital to the security of our nation and our beneficiaries. If you have any questions regarding this policy, my points of contact are Colonel Molly Hall Chief Physician Education Branch at DSN 665-2638, Commercial (210) 565-2638 or her deputy, Mrs. Geiger at 1800 531-5800, Commercial (210) 565-2638.
GEORGE PEACH TAYLOR, JR.
Lieutenant General, USAF, MC, CFS
Surgeon General


WOW..now the AF sucks as much as the Navy....
 
DiveMD said:
WOW..now the AF sucks as much as the Navy....

it probably has "sucked" as much or more than the NAVY (Primary Care), it is just that people DO NOT KNOW the truth. While at a military conference on "Open Access", there were 7 USAF bases and 1 USN base represented. The USN Clinic was doing the best hands down. The major reason; USN FP docs were operating on 700 patients per provider and the USAF was over 1500 (in reality the number was about 3000 pts per doc when you consider deployed docs etc).

I also remember some Colonel visiting our base and he couldn't understand why we couldn't be taking care of 3000+ patients per doc, after all, he had met a few civilian docs that were doing just that.

Talk about clueless.......I have met those civilian docs as well, and I will likely be one of them. But those docs are not straight out of residency, they do not have 18 yo techs as thier nurses, they have more than 1-2 exam rooms, and they have support staff available to do as much admin work as possible (scripts, referral, other paperwork etc). They also do not typically have patients who have ZERO co-pay on visits and meds (that inflate office visits), doctors doing mandatory PT, frequent military meetings, frequent changing of patients changing duty stations, docs separating, frequent changes to support staff (I had 25 changes to my support staff personnel in 3 years), etc.... :idea:

I am all for giving excellent care, for having productivity goals etc, but the USAF seems to want its Primary Care physicians "to build houses" without "hammers, nails", and all the other basics that go into that. :idea:

I had once beleived USAF medicine to be built of USAF Core Values. In reality in has been built on the shifting sands and whims of a poorly executed plan from the desk of the Gurgeon General; right next to his computer screen of metrics, and stack of latest contracts with TRICARE and HUMANA. :meanie:
 
USAFdoc said:
I also remember some Colonel visiting our base and he couldn't understand why we couldn't be taking care of 3000+ patients per doc, after all, he had met a few civilian docs that were doing just that.

Talk about clueless.......I have met those civilian docs as well, and I will likely be one of them. But those docs are not straight out of residency, they do not have 18 yo techs as thier nurses, they have more than 1-2 exam rooms, and they have support staff available to do as much admin work as possible (scripts, referral, other paperwork etc). They also do not typically have patients who have ZERO co-pay on visits and meds (that inflate office visits), doctors doing mandatory PT, frequent military meeting, frequent changing of patients changing duty stations, docs separating, frequent changes to support staff (I had 25 changes to my support staff personnel in 3 years), etc.... :idea:

AMEN to that; the Army is on the same sheet of music as the AF with regard to all these problems. Thankfully, my days of being on 12 committees, having to cancel clinic at least twice a month for last-minute "mandatory training", and not being able to hire good staff or can the bad ones are over! The "zero co-pay" issue is an interesting one; I've long been a fan of some type of "single payer" medical system, but it's absolutely true that the way the military runs it, it becomes a license to run to the doc every time you have a drippy nose or sore throat; that, and the fact that everyone in the military is cataloguing all their "ills" for that big VA disability rating when they get out -- the current system just encourages overuse of an already strained system.

X-RMD
 
I agree wholeheartedly that CHCS sux, one would think that all the money the military should have that they would have a better system. I think military docs should be compensated alot better for all they go through. I am positive about still wanting to be a military physician after hearing Lieutenant General Kiley and Former LTG Blanck speak but come on, Congress needs to fix the problems in the system.(they are the only ones that can) Some of the systems are so out of date and it is almost like you have to a medical coder to get things done.

Tricare...ugh, let's not go there 👎

Hopefully I can make a difference when I get there. I want my brothers and sisters in uniform to get the best care, after all they are the ones in the Big Suck.

Hopefully we will not not bite off more than we can chew politically on the world scene and get stretched so thin docs end up doing everything but patient care. I am not a politician, I just have hope. After I am done I hope that I can speak well and feel good about what i have done. If not.. I'll keep that to myself.

The military has been good to me but I know it has screwed many people because we still have rules we have to abide by (some are antiquated)and unless we are making policies that change things, there will be many more horror stories. I would love to use what you have said here to bring before the hieracrhy.

Thank you for all that you do. I apsire to be like you.
 
bliss72 said:
I agree wholeheartedly that CHCS sux, one would think that all the money the military should have that they would have a better system. I think military docs should be compensated alot better for all they go through. I am positive about still wanting to be a military physician after hearing Lieutenant General Kiley and Former LTG Blanck speak but come on, Congress needs to fix the problems in the system.(they are the only ones that can) Some of the systems are so out of date and it is almost like you have to a medical coder to get things done.

Tricare...ugh, let's not go there 👎

Hopefully I can make a difference when I get there. I want my brothers and sisters in uniform to get the best care, after all they are the ones in the Big Suck.

Hopefully we will not not bite off more than we can chew politically on the world scene and get stretched so thin docs end up doing everything but patient care. I am not a politician, I just have hope. After I am done I hope that I can speak well and feel good about what i have done. If not.. I'll keep that to myself..

1) Nobody can chew the entire milmed system, your TMJ awaits. :laugh:
2) Keeping things to yourself, while admirable at times, condones the system. While there is a correct and incorrect way to promote change, silence is likely not one of those ways. :idea:
3) You will make a difference, but the question is how low are you willing to lower your standards in accepting the current state of military medicine? Realize that those calling the shots have very different priorities compared to yours. You still have 100% responsibility, but ZERO authority. 😱
4) Yes, congress can help the situation. Realize that the military will do everything they can to cover up the sad state of affairs. When I went to congress, the USAF rep at the pentagon told my congressman that "retention was great, the healthcare system is great...etc" ...that lie has been publically exposed less than a year later. 😎
 
bliss72 said:
I agree wholeheartedly that CHCS sux, one would think that all the money the military should have that they would have a better system. I think military docs should be compensated alot better for all they go through. I am positive about still wanting to be a military physician after hearing Lieutenant General Kiley and Former LTG Blanck speak but come on, Congress needs to fix the problems in the system.(they are the only ones that can) Some of the systems are so out of date and it is almost like you have to a medical coder to get things done.

Tricare...ugh, let's not go there 👎

Hopefully I can make a difference when I get there. I want my brothers and sisters in uniform to get the best care, after all they are the ones in the Big Suck.

Hopefully we will not not bite off more than we can chew politically on the world scene and get stretched so thin docs end up doing everything but patient care. I am not a politician, I just have hope. After I am done I hope that I can speak well and feel good about what i have done. If not.. I'll keep that to myself.

The military has been good to me but I know it has screwed many people because we still have rules we have to abide by (some are antiquated)and unless we are making policies that change things, there will be many more horror stories. I would love to use what you have said here to bring before the hieracrhy.

Thank you for all that you do. I apsire to be like you.


Bliss,

Have you been deployed at all? And when I say deployed, I don't mean assignment to Naples or Japan, I mean have you spent a deployment either in the NAG or in the sand?

The reason I ask, is because I know that its possible for a nurse to spend an entire career on active duty and never deploy (even now).

Even if you have been deployed, your view of the system from a nursing perspective is going to be completely different than it will when you have a license to practice medicine.

Your partially correct, in that the transient nature of most physicians is a large part of the problem. The other part of the problem, is that to get that promotion to O6, you have to buy in to the system as it is.

The combination of almost all the new blood leaving, and then forced buy in to make it past O5 will make the system near impossible to change. Yes, you can make incremental changes, but why bother re arranging deck chairs on the Titanic?

I hope you make it into med school, then stay on in the military system. But when you become bitter, and you realize that it isn't as great as you think it is now, don't say we didn't tell you.

I haven't mentioned much about my background on the board, because I am trying to keep a relatively low profile until my resignation is accepted. I will say, that I am a second tour GMO, and am already on my second hump to the middle east.


i want out
 
denali said:
No, but when your monotonous diatribes even remotely begin to approach the importance of ABCs, I and others might be more inclined to disregard the tiresome repetitiveness & patronizing tone.

Have a nice day. 🙂

ok..wow. I guess I have to be more mean to be a physician. I am not trying to be patronizing at all. Just trying to listen to your opinions. I just came here for advice myself. I thought I was talking to professionals who could give ME advice on how to get to medical school, people I could have healthy diaologue with. I guess I may as well be asking for directions at a KKK rally.

Oh well, thanks for showing a student what being physician is REALLY about. 😕
 
i want out said:
Bliss,

Have you been deployed at all? And when I say deployed, I don't mean assignment to Naples or Japan, I mean have you spent a deployment either in the NAG or in the sand?

The reason I ask, is because I know that its possible for a nurse to spend an entire career on active duty and never deploy (even now).

Even if you have been deployed, your view of the system from a nursing perspective is going to be completely different than it will when you have a license to practice medicine.

Your partially correct, in that the transient nature of most physicians is a large part of the problem. The other part of the problem, is that to get that promotion to O6, you have to buy in to the system as it is.

The combination of almost all the new blood leaving, and then forced buy in to make it past O5 will make the system near impossible to change. Yes, you can make incremental changes, but why bother re arranging deck chairs on the Titanic?

I hope you make it into med school, then stay on in the military system. But when you become bitter, and you realize that it isn't as great as you think it is now, don't say we didn't tell you.

I haven't mentioned much about my background on the board, because I am trying to keep a relatively low profile until my resignation is accepted. I will say, that I am a second tour GMO, and am already on my second hump to the middle east.


i want out

Yeah I could see where that makes sense. I have been deployed and nowhere as nice as Naples or Japan (boy do I wish I could get Japan). I have been to the Hospital at Abu Ghraib.. but I am sure you are right. Most of the docs that DID deploy expressed similar frustrations, not all but certainly some of them. I guess my view of medicine is still in the idealistic phase because the docs that I worked with were also teaching me really cool things and doing really cool things. But deployment sux no matter how you gift wrap it.
As far as the buying into the system, yes I see that too. Alot of the Colonels were a bit out of touch with the other docs humping it out there because they were on the command kick. O-6 and up are more politicians than physicians at that level. Like I said though, not everyone I've worked with is like that either, but I can see where you are coming from. So , what do we do? If all of our physicians leave the military, it is not going to stop politicians from starting wars. With all that's said and done the reason fatalities in Iraq are not inthe Vietnam levels is because of quicker access to life-saving health care. I guess I am still see myself as a soldier too. I try to think, what would happen if I wasn't there as a nurse to help? What if it was me on the gurney? I mean I don't want combat medics performing surgery. I just want to be a good physician, I don'treally care about all the other stuff, at least not right now. Perhaps I will eventually become bitter, but I am not yet at that point. I just dread what would happen to our hospitals if physicians won't join, what civilian care provider would want to deploy? Should we just let soldiers die? I am not being facetious but I am looking for an answer from Physicians. They know the problems in the system, but how do we solve them from the outside then? This is an honest question, I would love some input.
 
USAFdoc said:
1) Nobody can chew the entire milmed system, your TMJ awaits. :laugh:
2) Keeping things to yourself, while admirable at times, condones the system. While there is a correct and incorrect way to promote change, silence is likely not one of those ways. :idea:
3) You will make a difference, but the question is how low are you willing to lower your standards in accepting the current state of military medicine? Realize that those calling the shots have very different priorities compared to yours. You still have 100% responsibility, but ZERO authority. 😱
4) Yes, congress can help the situation. Realize that the military will do everything they can to cover up the sad state of affairs. When I went to congress, the USAF rep at the pentagon told my congressman that "retention was great, the healthcare system is great...etc" ...that lie has been publically exposed less than a year later. 😎


Now this is post I agree completely with.. I know that this retention is great crap is propaganda. Every major war-making nation in history has used it and we are no different. The lie is still the lie but can we say that?

Brass can only get what funding they want by selling the fantasy. Most of those High brass aren't picking up a weapon to do anything but I it is not my place to say anything.

Lowering the standards only kills soldiers, but they are trying to improve the spearhead ofmedical care though, the combat medics. At BNCOC, the medics in AIT are learning chest tubes, venous cut-downs, needle decompressions etc. Maybe that'll help?

As far as the rest of the system, I would hope that if Physicians come up with a better system, they can at least improve our try to improve the state of military medicine. Problem is will the those that run the machine listen to them?

*Sigh* medicine is becoming like politics and that definitely bites. I want to be a physician not a politician.
 
orbitsurgMD said:
You are wrong. HPSP was in decline in numbers and quality for years before the present war, in fact for years before the attacks on 11 September, 2001. Average HPSP MCAT scores, which a decade ago and before were representative of highly-competitive applicants at many better medical schools (and I mean the Columbia, Harvard and Duke class) had progressively sunk to the minimum scores necessary for admission to any allopathic schools. The HPSP class was skewed toward osteopathic schools in percentages greater than the ratio of osteopathic to allopathic graduates in the country as a whole. The military was losing the fight on applicant quality well before any of the recent conflicts took place. All of this occurred while civilian practice reimbursement became relatively static and while tuition and expense costs at both private and state-funded medical schools skyrocketed. You would think those factors alone would make a program that made a nearly all-expense-paid medical school education available would have been at least as successful as it had been in the past, but the reverse was true. Why? There are several reasons why, but it wasn't because of a war.

The military has been abandoning its commitment to quality care through quality training in a piecemeal fashion for over a decade. Hospital-based training in the military was once far more available than it is today, as the population of patients included not only active-duty but families of active-duty, retirees and their family members as well. At one time it was not at all unusual to see octogenarians at a Naval hospital who had never had any medical care outside the military system. Residency programs were larger and more robust than today and there was no shortage of pathology to provide a foundation for excellent training in most disciplines. It was unnecessary to send residents away to civilian institutions for many disciplines, and those that did send residents out of service did so in far fewer numbers than today.

The ascendance of cost-cutting as the primary motivator of upper-level military medical department management led to a train of strategies that reduced the demand for services placed on military medical facilities. As the patients were shunted to civilian providers, the case load for trainees dried up, and many residency programs languished (don't let those who would mislead by quoting board scores fool you, case numbers and quality are closely linked, and military case numbers were falling hard). As time passed, military training opportunities declined in number and also in reputation for quality. Once-respected hospitals closed (Oak Knoll, Letterman). One could no longer assume an exceptional experience from military hospital training.

While training opportunities were declining, the military was doing other things to make doctors think life was better outside the base fence. In the early 1980s, a service-wide change in calculation of officer pay was initiated under the DOPMA legislation. This created a two-tier pay scale for medical department officers who entered after 1982. Instead of gaining time-in-service credit from the date of first commissioning, usually at the beginning of medical school, all medical officers started as O-3 with zero years. The pay difference between that and being an O-3 with 4 years was significant and the difference lasted throughout the officer's career, as was the loss of the ability to count those 4 years in medical school directly toward fulfillment of a minimum 20-year retirement commitment. So a career-long lower pay scale and a longer period of minimum service to retirement. Not just a bite, but a career-long chewing. Add to that, the benefits of a full retirement became ever more dubious: lower retirement pay, later retirement, and disenfranchisement from the benefits of military medical care system under CHAMPUS (then) and TRICARE (now). It was enough to make some people want to . . . quit.

This was extremely informative, and free of insults thank you, I learned something.
 
Hiya bliss,

Docs are always going to gripe, because they have a lot to gripe about. It's a job where you're responsible for people's safety and lives on the one hand while never having everything you truly need to do things to your satisfaction. And every doc is a perfectionist, either they're born that way or bred that way during medical school, because missing a decimal point somewhere can get seriously injure someone. No doc worth his MD wants to be caught between wanting to do his best for his patients but can't because he's hamstrung by some policy that's taken on a life of his own because it's enforced by policies that have taken on a life of their own. Every doc sees himself as on an island trying to hold together with all the incompetence and lackadaisical attitudes around him. That's why docs gripe and this forum is a nice, anonymous, repercussion-free place to vent about that with peers, who are really the only people who can sympathize with what docs go through. I know that must sound elitist and it honestly probably is, but that's who docs are.

You still want to get into med school? Are you doing college courses/have you taken all the required science classes? You'll also need to take the MCAT and grab some letters of recommendation. But you know what - just write your personal essay about your experiences in the desert and why you want to become a doctor, and talk about that during your interviews. Every admission committee in the country will be interested in talking to you.
 
AF M4 said:
Hiya bliss,

Docs are always going to gripe, because they have a lot to gripe about. And every doc is a perfectionist, either they're born that way or bred that way during medical school, because missing a decimal point somewhere can get seriously injure someone. No doc worth his MD wants to be caught between wanting to do his best for his patients but can't because he's hamstrung by some policy that's taken on a life of his own because it's enforced by policies that have taken on a life of their own. Every doc sees himself as on an island trying to hold together with all the incompetence and lackadaisical attitudes around him. That's why docs gripe and this forum is a nice, anonymous, repercussion-free place to vent about that with peers, who are really the only people who can sympathize with what docs go through. QUOTE]
AF M4 said:
define a gripe.

Nowhere under the definition of gripe would likely find any of the following:
1) soldiers going 20 years without ever having their high blood pressure treated.
2) increases in patient panel sizes from 700 up to 3000+
3) no charts available when you see patients.
4) 31 yo man status post stroke; meds refilled for 2-3 years without ever being seen. Last BP in his chart 248/148!
5) patients having their PCM (family doc) changed 5 times in one year
6) admin techs shredding and burning labs results rather than filing them
7) 20 foot high stack of results/papers waiting to be filed. A year later, still waiting.
8) Novice PAs unsupervised
9) patients having to travel 100+ miles to see specialist because no one will accept TRICARE locally
10) nearly all training being converted into internet based training....then giving near zero time to do that training...commanders realizing that and providing "cheat sheets" so that the training "metrics" look good. One particular internet based training course would have taken 40 hours to complete. It was a good course, but who had an extra 40 hours sitting around? In todays overrun military primary care clinics, nobody. I had NEVER cheated on a test in my life, until then. 😳
 
Wow. Ok, a gripe is the AF simultaneously screwing up my active duty pay and my travel vouchers for an away medical student rotation. The time bombs you mentioned would be worth a million dollars a shot in lawsuits in the civilian world.

I'm guessing those unsupervised PAs still work under your license? Has anyone in the AF ever had their license suspended for all this? And just out of morbid curiosity, why were there never any charts available and why were admin techs destroying lab results?
 
AF M4 said:
Wow. Ok, a gripe is the AF simultaneously screwing up my active duty pay and my travel vouchers for an away medical student rotation. The time bombs you mentioned would be worth a million dollars a shot in lawsuits in the civilian world.

I'm guessing those unsupervised PAs still work under your license? Has anyone in the AF ever had their license suspended for all this? And just out of morbid curiosity, why were there never any charts available and why were admin techs destroying lab results?


Simple, no one is auditing what they do, ever.

Patient sees the doctor, doctor orders testing for patient, which is done, recommends followup. Test report comes back to clinic, but is not sent to the doctor. Instead, the report slip is slid into a "holding" file, to be placed in the chart at some future but indeterminate time. Patient comes back but maybe not to the same doctor, or maybe not in the same clinic, or maybe doesn't come back at all. Who remembers to go looking for that chit? Now multiply that by, oh, say several hundred. Think that can't happen? I will tell you it can, because I got to lead the cleanup when I discovered one such set of holding files when I went looking for a lab result. Believe me, there was an intensive, nearly-forensic, all-hands effort to review, notify, match and close every single one of those reports, as there should have been. It didn't happen again, either.

I heard worse, though. Overworked and irresponsible Navy corpsmen at one clinic a PA colleague worked in had "stored" paper lab results in the drop ceiling voids in their clinic building. That storage method came to the attention of the command when the loading weight of the ceiling panels was exceeded. Supposedly a week-long round-the-clock lockdown of that facility followed during which all personnel were required to clean up that mess.
 
orbitsurgMD said:
Simple, no one is auditing what they do, ever.

Patient sees the doctor, doctor orders testing for patient, which is done, recommends followup. Test report comes back to clinic, but is not sent to the doctor. Instead, the report slip is slid into a "holding" file, to be placed in the chart at some future but indeterminate time. Patient comes back but maybe not to the same doctor, or maybe not in the same clinic, or maybe doesn't come back at all. Who remembers to go looking for that chit? Now multiply that by, oh, say several hundred. Think than can't happen? I will tell you it can, because I got to lead the cleanup when I discovered one such set of holding files when I went looking for a lab result. Believe me, there was an intensive, nearly-forensic, all-hands effort to review, notify, match and close every single one of those reports, as there should have been. It didn't happen again, either.

I heard worse, though. Overworked and irresponsible Navy corpsmen at one clinic a PA colleague worked in had "stored" paper lab results in the drop ceiling voids in their clinic building. That storage method came to the attention of the command when the loading weight of the ceiling panels was exceeded. Supposedly a week-long round-the-clock lockdown of that facility followed during which all personnel were required to clean up that mess.


1) we had papers stashed in the overhead ceiling panels too, not a nice coincidence. And not that this is an excuse, but I would estimate that with the increased numbers of patients per doctor and with increased "red tape" paperwork, that paperwork to be filed increased more than 600%. Now it would be nice to think that an airmen making 10K a year will be willing to work as long as it takes (80+ hrs week) to get the job done, but obviously there have been at least a few that found "easier ways" to get the "job done".

2) yes, docs tend to be perfectionist (from a previous post), but I do not believe I am expecting perfection in a USAF clinic when I mention some of the serious problems we have. I would certainly love perfection for our clinic and care of patients, but thats not realisitic. At the same time, what is really going on in the USAF primary care clinic is just NOT ACCEPTABLE. 👎
 
orbitsurgMD said:
Simple, no one is auditing what they do, ever.

Patient sees the doctor, doctor orders testing for patient, which is done, recommends followup. Test report comes back to clinic, but is not sent to the doctor. Instead, the report slip is slid into a "holding" file, to be placed in the chart at some future but indeterminate time. Patient comes back but maybe not to the same doctor, or maybe not in the same clinic, or maybe doesn't come back at all. Who remembers to go looking for that chit? ...

I've heard variations of this complaint here for some time. It hasn't been my experience at all. Every lab or radiology study I've ever ordered was done electronically. The results always show up on CHCS. When the results came back, I always would get an electronic notification of the results. For patients I was really concerned about I would write it on a to-do list and call the lab or make extra sure to check the results.

What tests are you referring to? The only test I've ever seen a paper result was an EKG, sleep study or maybe EEG.
 
IgD said:
I've heard variations of this complaint here for some time. It hasn't been my experience at all. Every lab or radiology study I've ever ordered was done electronically. The results always show up on CHCS. When the results came back, I always would get an electronic notification of the results. For patients I was really concerned about I would write it on a to-do list and call the lab or make extra sure to check the results.

What tests are you referring to? The only test I've ever seen a paper result was an EKG, sleep study or maybe EEG.
Go with the Marines and you'll see all the paper chits you could ever want.
 
IgD said:
I've heard variations of this complaint here for some time. It hasn't been my experience at all. Every lab or radiology study I've ever ordered was done electronically. The results always show up on CHCS. When the results came back, I always would get an electronic notification of the results. For patients I was really concerned about I would write it on a to-do list and call the lab or make extra sure to check the results.

What tests are you referring to? The only test I've ever seen a paper result was an EKG, sleep study or maybe EEG.


question: it sounds as if you DO NOT print out a paper copy of your labs. So when your patient xfers to a new base, how will the docs there know about past labs (normals and abnormals)?

CHCS is nice to see past labs and xrays, but the paper copy is impt also. Another problem with the CHCS senario is when you, the ordering doctor have deployed or separated and nobody is accessing your labs ordered. Without an automatic paper copy, there is NO paper trail. I have witnessed this hundreds of times resulting in missed abnormal labs; the patients never notified. I brought this problems up with clinic commanders who seened a whole lot less concerned about it than I was.
 
IgD said:
I've heard variations of this complaint here for some time. It hasn't been my experience at all. Every lab or radiology study I've ever ordered was done electronically. The results always show up on CHCS. When the results came back, I always would get an electronic notification of the results. For patients I was really concerned about I would write it on a to-do list and call the lab or make extra sure to check the results.

What tests are you referring to? The only test I've ever seen a paper result was an EKG, sleep study or maybe EEG.

The biggest problem I had was with with results of tests or referrals done off post at civilian facilities. Those results DON'T get into CHCS and seem to almost invariably disappear into some black hole and it takes superhuman effort to find the results (and you can't just call and ask the outside doc's office for results any more because of HIPPA constraints). This is becoming a bigger and bigger problem (especially at smaller MEDDACs) as direct military care is cut back and sent out to the civilian sector.
 
R-Me-Doc said:
The biggest problem I had was with with results of tests or referrals done off post at civilian facilities. Those results DON'T get into CHCS and seem to almost invariably disappear into some black hole and it takes superhuman effort to find the results (and you can't just call and ask the outside doc's office for results any more because of HIPPA constraints). This is becoming a bigger and bigger problem (especially at smaller MEDDACs) as direct military care is cut back and sent out to the civilian sector.

absolutely. I always wondered if it was just that those civilian docs just NEVER send results back to the primary care doc or was it TRICARE, and the low reimbursement, that they figured they were already taking a loss just seeing our patients, and sending results etc was just more of a loss for them. :idea:
 
USAFdoc said:
absolutely. I always wondered if it was just that those civilian docs just NEVER send results back to the primary care doc or was it TRICARE, and the low reimbursement, that they figured they were already taking a loss just seeing our patients, and sending results etc was just more of a loss for them. :idea:

I have to ask: did any of you one day just go into a Joker-like fit of maniacal laughter and start madly stamping various pieces of paperwork and throwing them around your office while your staff quietly called the psych ward?
 
AF M4 said:
I have to ask: did any of you one day just go into a Joker-like fit of maniacal laughter and start madly stamping various pieces of paperwork and throwing them around your office while your staff quietly called the psych ward?

not exactly; but a few of the docs all had the phrase "UNBELIEVABLE" down-pat. In was a daily happening that something outrageous would either come down from admin/commanders or something crazy missed with a patient diagnosis. We would just say the magic word "unbelievable" and get on with doing the best we could.

as with the psych ward; more than several of the staff developed the expected depression/anxiety syndromes while working in the clinic. I personally saw more than 50% of the female staff break down in tears at least once.

sad. 😳
 
USAFdoc said:
question: it sounds as if you DO NOT print out a paper copy of your labs. So when your patient xfers to a new base, how will the docs there know about past labs (normals and abnormals)?

CHCS is nice to see past labs and xrays, but the paper copy is impt also. Another problem with the CHCS senario is when you, the ordering doctor have deployed or separated and nobody is accessing your labs ordered. Without an automatic paper copy, there is NO paper trail. I have witnessed this hundreds of times resulting in missed abnormal labs; the patients never notified. I brought this problems up with clinic commanders who seened a whole lot less concerned about it than I was.

I would incorporate them into my progress note.

I'm not a big fan of AHLTA but it has solved the problem. It created a universal medical records system. There is no need to print out paper labs.
 
IgD said:
I would incorporate them into my progress note.

I'm not a big fan of AHLTA but it has solved the problem. It created a universal medical records system. There is no need to print out paper labs.

Many MTFs are still not online with Alta... so this is still not a solution.
 
IgD said:
I would incorporate them into my progress note.

I'm not a big fan of AHLTA but it has solved the problem. It created a universal medical records system. There is no need to print out paper labs.


AHLTA was not there the over the past few decades; the hundreds of missed labs were. AHLTA will solve some of these types of problems, but to late for the patients I saw.

Incorporating them into the progress note is a valid option, but probably not as good as having the hard copy in the lab section in the chart (Prior to AHLTA).
 
FYI: US Medicine letter to the editor.

basically the same thing I saw during my career. Heres to hoping for the best from our military medicine leadership, but as the author states, don't hold your breath waiting. Military Medicine has alot of problems to overcome even if it decides it wants to fix them. It my opinion, they care more about appearances than reality, and that won't get it done.

http://www.usmedicine.com/article.cfm?articleID=152&issueID=23



February 2001
Letters To The Editor -




Military Physicians Leave For A Plethora Of Reasons
I have been reading several of the articles in your publication concerning military physician retention. I have recent experience with military medicine and find much of what has been written very accurate.

I do wish to add some things:
During my four year stint in the military I did not witness one single physician with the rank of O-4 or below remain in the military beyond their initial obligation for HPSP or USUHS. Thus, from what I have seen, military physician retention at the rank of O-4 and below is zero. This goes for all specialties across the board.

The only physicians I have seen stay are those in ranks of O-5 and above who seem "stuck" in the system for whatever reason. But, they are certainly in the minority and are mostly in administrative non-clinical jobs.

This all combines to produce a practicing military medical corps that is consistently youthful and relatively inexperienced.

Why this severe military physician retention problem? Obviously, the military is not a good place to practice medicine. Here are some contributing factors:

Low Pay and Difficult Working Conditions. Why continue to work for the federal government, [which] is consistently demanding more and more from physicians, when one can go to the private sector and still work as hard but be much better compensated for it?
This is true for all specialties and is a "no-brainer."

Inadequate Retirement Plan. The retirement plan is not a good deal for physicians. This is because it is based upon "base pay" only, and is not based upon the total income.

Too much Managed Care. The military now seems to have a love affair with managed care, and has forced it upon its physicians. Unless one shares this passion for managed care, practicing medicine in the military, especially as a "PCM," is demanding, difficult and frustrating.
This is mainly because one does not have the autonomy to limit the amount of HMO patients in his or her practice. Military medicine (in the MTF) is now 100 per cent HMO.
One primary care physician who recently left the military described the experience as "hellish" because of this. This leads to the next reason.

Lack of Autonomy. All physicians place a high degree of value upon this, whether they are willing to admit it or not. Most, if not all, physicians are strong-willed, independent people or they would not have the "right stuff" to get into and through the rigors of medical school and residency. (If the military allowed them a residency—which is a whole other problem.)
Military physicians, simply because of the organization they are in, have less autonomy than any others. Granted, this is given up when one chooses to "sign on the dotted line" and accept money from the government for medical education. But as soon as freedom can be regained, most take advantage of the opportunity.
However just because one "belongs" to the military does not mean that there needs to be as much micromanagement of military medical practice that there now seems to be. This micromanagement is a direct result of total "managed care."

Loss of Traditional, "Old-Fashioned" Medical Values. Military medicine now seems to be concerned more with numbers such as "metrics" and "productivity." Whatever happened to the patient?
The patient seems to have become lost in all this. In fact, the patient no longer exists at all; this is evidenced by the fact that the patient has become a "customer."
Pardon me, but a "customer" is someone who buys a hamburger from McDonald’s. A "patient" is someone who seeks the help of a physician. But wait, the physician has been lost also, the physician no longer exists either but is now a "provider." So, we have "customers" "accessing" "providers." This doesn’t sound like medicine at all. Sounds more like business doesn’t it?
So, there we have it folks, military medicine is now all about business. What is business all about? MONEY. So, what is military medicine all about now? MONEY.
Yes, private practice is about earning money also, but it is not the prime focus. Believe it or not, most physicians I know did go to medical school because they wanted to help people. People are what is most important in their lives, not making money. On the other hand, the prime focus of military healthcare as a whole now seems to be centered around money.
What does this have to do with physician retention? Practicing medicine in such an overly cost-conscious environment is often very difficult and frustrating because of the limitations that are imposed in an effort to preserve that which is valued the most: money.
What limitations? Limited pharmacy formularies, strict referral criteria, and the many other limitations imposed by managed care.

Career Progression Leads Out of Clinical Medicine. In the military, achieving higher rank (and thus higher pay), almost certainly means leaving the practice of medicine for a "desk job." This is a good thing for physicians who don’t want to practice medicine anymore, for whatever reason. But for most who want to continue the full time practice of medicine AND experience career progression, there is only one direction to go: out.

Promotion Dependent upon Unnecessary Non-Applicable Professional Military Education. In the military, physicians cannot be promoted beyond the rank of O-4 without "Professional Military Education." This "PME" is not geared toward medical officers in any way shape or form, but rather is totally oriented toward line officers. For a physician who wants to become a line officer, this is probably a necessary thing, but how many of those are there?
Furthermore, I doubt we will ever see a medical officer in command of a line organization.

Little or No Professional Development. The military continues to deny medical school graduates the opportunity to obtain a seamless medical education from medical school through residency before entering practice.
The military has come under congressional heat for this and deserves every bit of it. Hopefully, Congress will keep the pressure on to put an end to this archaic practice. No need is so great as to justify this.
All too often, these unfortunate physicians must serve out their entire time with incomplete medical training, because the military then refuses to provide them with the additional education they need and ask for, or they are so disillusioned and disappointed with their military medical experience (after what has happened to them) that they just want to get it behind them. This goes for GMOs and GMO-flight surgeons.
Speaking of GMO-flight surgeons, isn’t it baffling that its pilots—among the military’s most valuable human assets—are being cared for by its least trained physicians? Go figure.

This list is by no means exhaustive. I could go on and on, but I think most would agree that I have hit the big ones.
Will anything be done to correct all this and thus the physician retention problems? It’s anybody’s guess.
But, I wouldn’t hold my breath.
—NAME WITHELD
 
USAFdoc said:
AHLTA was not there the over the past few decades; the hundreds of missed labs were. AHLTA will solve some of these types of problems, but to late for the patients I saw.

Incorporating them into the progress note is a valid option, but probably not as good as having the hard copy in the lab section in the chart (Prior to AHLTA).

CHCS has been around for decades. It notifies you when there is an abormal result. Almost anything you order from the primary care clinic is going to show up in CHCS. Help me understand then. How is it possible to miss an abnormal result?
 
IgD said:
CHCS has been around for decades. It notifies you when there is an abormal result. Almost anything you order from the primary care clinic is going to show up in CHCS. Help me understand then. How is it possible to miss an abnormal result?


CHCS has only been around a little over 10 years as a truly functional system.

AHLTA, or Ah Heck Lets Try Again has been instituted at least a three times, and each prior time was thrown back for more development.

i want out
 
IgD said:
CHCS has been around for decades. It notifies you when there is an abormal result. Almost anything you order from the primary care clinic is going to show up in CHCS. Help me understand then. How is it possible to miss an abnormal result?


I saw a bunch of guys caught on their exit physicals with high PSAs. Here is the typical scenario... 47 y.o LTC gets psa at exit physical and it is 16. Review CHCS.. one or two previously high PSAs that should have prompted referral and biopsy. They get diagnosed with advanced cancer and wonder why they weren't caught earlier. Ooops. It is o.k. and we can excuse it because we are supposed ot be patriotic and realize that military medicine is a big system and difficult to change. System failure. Theoretically, every patient should get a call or a letter telling him/her what the result of the lab is. That is common courtesy and ensures the labs are being checked. Why order a lab you aren't going to check or act upon if it is abnormal? Happens every day...
 
former military said:
I saw a bunch of guys caught on their exit physicals with high PSAs. Here is the typical scenario... 47 y.o LTC gets psa at exit physical and it is 16. Review CHCS.. one or two previously high PSAs that should have prompted referral and biopsy. They get diagnosed with advanced cancer and wonder why they weren't caught earlier. Ooops. It is o.k. and we can excuse it because we are supposed ot be patriotic and realize that military medicine is a big system and difficult to change. System failure. Theoretically, every patient should get a call or a letter telling him/her what the result of the lab is. That is common courtesy and ensures the labs are being checked. Why order a lab you aren't going to check or act upon if it is abnormal? Happens every day...

How is that a system failure? To me that falls on the provider. If you order a lab and then ignore the electronic result it is negligence. If a PSA comes back at 16 it shows up as a critical result.
 
i want out said:
CHCS has only been around a little over 10 years as a truly functional system.

AHLTA, or Ah Heck Lets Try Again has been instituted at least a three times, and each prior time was thrown back for more development.

i want out

Actually CHCS has been around since the mid-1980s.

What branch of service are you in? AHLTA is at all the big MTFs, in-theater and even overseas in the Navy.
 
IgD said:
Actually CHCS has been around since the mid-1980s.

What branch of service are you in? AHLTA is at all the big MTFs, in-theater and even overseas in the Navy.


IgD,

I stand corrected on one point, CHCS I arrived NMCP circa 1988. Thus, it has been in use about 18 years, thus it won't be decade'S until a couple years from now.

I am a second tour Navy GMO, now since we are all asking questions, why don't you share a little more about your nebulous questionable self?

I am quite aware that CHCS II is overseas, I am using it on a daily basis.
The TMDS(don't call it AHLTA overseas) version is even less useful than the version back in CONUS.

As for how labs fall through the cracks, its fairly easy, when you deploy, and all your labs go to a surrogate, then your surrogate PCS's, or Deploys.

IgD, are you really a physician, and if you are, have you ever deployed?

i want out
 
IgD said:
CHCS has been around for decades. It notifies you when there is an abormal result. Almost anything you order from the primary care clinic is going to show up in CHCS. Help me understand then. How is it possible to miss an abnormal result?

this is likely a partial list to the question why all the missed labs;

1) lack of continuity. Does anyplace have a changover of docs like the military does? What happens to all the labs that are ONLY electronically stored when a person leaves, separated, deploys, goes TDYetc.. and does not have them fwd to some other provider. Maybe they did fwd the labs and then that doc deployed? They sit is electronic "limbo", thats what. This was especially a problem with the civilian docs in the clinic (8 of 9 quit left during my last 2 years in the USAF).

2) lack of paper trail. The best answer, and certainly prior to AHLTA was to keep a paper copy as well in a chart, so that with duty station moves, etc, the results are, there, in the lab section, easy to find.

3) "a miss is just a click away". If a provider chooses to just print abnormal labs, and press delete on the rest, it is not a stretch to imagine something accidently getting deleted as a rushed provider reviews maybe hundreds of labs at the end of a day. Again, a paper copy is harder to ignore and delete.

4) Wonderful admin.......even with a paper copy, lots of not so urban legend, of papers burned, shredded, stuffed in the overhead by overworked, undersupervised 18 yo admin military airmen.

5) No chart available; maybe the abn lab is in the chart, paper form, but what good does that do you if you never have the chart. I had a chart only 10-40% of the time depending on the week and how short staffed admin was.

:idea:
 
USAFdoc said:
5) No chart available; maybe the abn lab is in the chart, paper form, but what good does that do you if you never have the chart. I had a chart only 10-40% of the time depending on the week and how short staffed admin was.

I agree with you on this point. Most people I know have had to keep shadow files in order to function. I really don't like the design of AHLTA but it really has a universal medical record file.

My friend approves overseas screening clearances. He checks AHLTA to make sure information is accurate he found red flags in over half the cases.

It is really interesting to see how the histories change when bouncing around between locations. AHLTA changes all that.

The problem with AHLTA is the GUI and latency. For primary care types it can take 10-15 mins just to enter the record and thats the same amount of time allocated for the appointment. I think they are slowly improving this.
 
i want out said:
IgD,

I stand corrected on one point, CHCS I arrived NMCP circa 1988. Thus, it has been in use about 18 years, thus it won't be decade'S until a couple years from now.

I am a second tour Navy GMO, now since we are all asking questions, why don't you share a little more about your nebulous questionable self?

I am quite aware that CHCS II is overseas, I am using it on a daily basis.
The TMDS(don't call it AHLTA overseas) version is even less useful than the version back in CONUS.

As for how labs fall through the cracks, its fairly easy, when you deploy, and all your labs go to a surrogate, then your surrogate PCS's, or Deploys.

IgD, are you really a physician, and if you are, have you ever deployed?

i want out

Why would anyone do two consecutive GMO tours? Of course I'm a physician and have been deployed. Maybe someday I'll post a whole lot more on here. Until then I'm giving 115% until my contract runs out.
 
IgD said:
I agree with you on this point. Most people I know have had to keep shadow files in order to function. I really don't like the design of AHLTA but it really has a universal medical record file.

My friend approves overseas screening clearances. He checks AHLTA to make sure information is accurate he found red flags in over half the cases.

It is really interesting to see how the histories change when bouncing around between locations. AHLTA changes all that.

The problem with AHLTA is the GUI and latency. For primary care types it can take 10-15 mins just to enter the record and thats the same amount of time allocated for the appointment. I think they are slowly improving this.


1) shadow files in order to function.........wonderful system.....NOT!!!!!!!! ...but unfortunately, probably necessary. Illegal in some areas, JACHO.

2) AHLTA 10-15 minutes latency time is unacceptable. NO CIVILIAN PRIMARY CARE DOC WOULD EVEN CONSIDER a system this slow. In the military, it is forced on docs by people who could care less.

3) Your friend found redflags in over half the cases....nice healthcare system. When I did an audit of CHCS labs, I found signif missed labs in 100% of patients over the age of 45. 🙁
 
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