Away rotations in internal medicine

[deleted1095841]

How common are these? And are they recommended? And do certain programs especially want/value them?
It came up on an unrelated thread: Top 5 IM programs without AOA

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[FalconSlice]

How common are these? And are they recommended? And do certain programs especially want/value them?
It came up on an unrelated thread: Top 5 IM programs without AOA

Not very common and not “necessary” unlike other specialties such as plastic surgery, ortho, etc.

FS

 

[deleted1095841]

Not very common and not “necessary” unlike other specialties such as plastic surgery, ortho, etc.

FS

Thanks!
If there's one (or two) programs I'm very interested in, would it make sense to do aways there?

 

[FalconSlice]

Thanks!
If there's one (or two) programs I'm very interested in, would it make sense to do aways there?

I would suggest not to (and, instead, have your mentors phone/reach out to their connections in said programs in tail end of interview season). For two main reasons:

1. As I stated, doing an away in IM is extremely uncommon (I've only seen this when an applicant is making it abundantly clear they are "the choice" because of family, spouse, etc.)

2. Aways are (in any specialty) a double-edged sword: make anything other than a stellar impression? You're likely to get DNR'd. On the other hand, if you kill it, they may rank you #1!

I'd suggest you talk to your mentor(s) to see if aways are encouraged in your specific situation since each person's experiences, goals, and reasons are extremely nuanced.

Just out of curiosity, any other reason you're considering doing IM aways other than because "you're very interested" in those programs?

FS

 

[deleted1095841]

I would suggest not to (and, instead, have your mentors phone/reach out to their connections in said programs in tail end of interview season). For two main reasons:

1. As I stated, doing an away in IM is extremely uncommon (I've only seen this when an applicant is making it abundantly clear they are "the choice" because of family, spouse, etc.)

2. Aways are (in any specialty) a double-edged sword: make anything other than a stellar impression? You're likely to get DNR'd. On the other hand, if you kill it, they may rank you #1!

I'd suggest you talk to your mentor(s) to see if aways are encouraged in your specific situation since each person's experiences, goals, and reasons are extremely nuanced.

Just out of curiosity, any other reason you're considering doing IM aways other than because "you're very interested" in those programs?

FS

Thanks for the thoughtful advice!
My parents are getting older, and I want to be in the area to help if/when needed. There are unfortunately only two academic medical centers near where I'm from, and they're not easy to get into.
To be honest, I'm not 100% sure I want to do IM, but I know that if I pursue something surgical (or EM), I'll have to do aways, so that question is basically answered. It's for non-surg specialties I'm not sure how much it will help. Based on what I know, I would most likely go into IM, neuro, derm, or diagnostic rads.

 

[AnonymousDoctorGuyPerson]

I would suggest not to (and, instead, have your mentors phone/reach out to their connections in said programs in tail end of interview season). For two main reasons:

1. As I stated, doing an away in IM is extremely uncommon (I've only seen this when an applicant is making it abundantly clear they are "the choice" because of family, spouse, etc.)

2. Aways are (in any specialty) a double-edged sword: make anything other than a stellar impression? You're likely to get DNR'd. On the other hand, if you kill it, they may rank you #1!

I'd suggest you talk to your mentor(s) to see if aways are encouraged in your specific situation since each person's experiences, goals, and reasons are extremely nuanced.

Just out of curiosity, any other reason you're considering doing IM aways other than because "you're very interested" in those programs?

FS

I will say, in response to OP and to the thread in question the folks at my school (low-tier MD) who wound up matching at top tier IM residencies all did aways at those residencies.

You're right, it is a double edge sword for sure but it seems to be one of the few ways to get your foot in the door when on paper you may have all honors and a high step, but so do the folks applying from the top tier schools and the difference between you and them can solely be your personality that they get to see on the away.


I'm only a 3rd year, but I'm strongly considering doing 1 or 2 Aways in IM for this very reason.

 

[deleted1095841]

I will say, in response to OP and to the thread in question the folks at my school (low-tier MD) who wound up matching at top tier IM residencies all did aways at those residencies.

You're right, it is a double edge sword for sure but it seems to be one of the few ways to get your foot in the door when on paper you may have all honors and a high step, but so do the folks applying from the top tier schools and the difference between you and them can solely be your personality that they get to see on the away.


I'm only a 3rd year, but I'm strongly considering doing 1 or 2 Aways in IM for this very reason.

Are these aways in regular plain IM, or in an IM subspecialty?
I ask because it might be a bit repetitive to do IM again, since it is a required clerkship at nearly all medical schools.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

They’ll help if you’re charismatic and or good looking. If not, probably not worth it

 

[deleted1095841]

They’ll help if you’re charismatic and or good looking. If not, probably not worth it

Based on your comment, I gather that IM aways are not super-helpful in general, but I'm wondering if they might be helpful in my situation.
I'm from the west coast originally, but I'm in the midwest now for medical school. I want to help take care of my parents (my brother can't do everything alone) but there are only 2 medical schools near where they live: UCSF and Stanford. (UC Davis is a bit too far away) Besides the usual things (good clinical grades and Step 2 score), I'm wondering if there's anything I can do to increase my chances of matching back home. Away rotations were mentioned in another thread, and I thought, would aways help me?

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Based on your comment, I gather that IM aways are not super-helpful in general, but I'm wondering if they might be helpful in my situation.
I'm from the west coast originally, but I'm in the midwest now for medical school. I want to help take care of my parents (my brother can't do everything alone) but there are only 2 medical schools near where they live: UCSF and Stanford. (UC Davis is a bit too far away) Besides the usual things (good clinical grades and Step 2 score), I'm wondering if there's anything I can do to increase my chances of matching back home. Away rotations were mentioned in another thread, and I thought, would aways help me?

Hmm I don’t think they’re too helpful for IM from what I’ve read on these forums. I bet that mentioning your situation would help more. There are no community programs in the Bay Area?

It’s somewhat unfortunate since UCSF and Stanford are top 4 and top 15 programs respectively. Are you going to be AOA?

 

[deleted1095841]

Hmm I don’t think they’re too helpful for IM from what I’ve read on these forums. I bet that mentioning your situation would help more. There are no community programs in the Bay Area?

It’s somewhat unfortunate since UCSF and Stanford are top 4 and top 15 programs respectively. Are you going to be AOA?

I'm sure there are at least a couple community programs (mostly Kaiser Permanente programs), and I'll apply to all of them. But it would be great to have that chance to do academic medicine. At my school, AOA is awarded "holistically" to roughly 20% of the class and they're not transparent about what factors are considered. I'm sure grades are part of it, but more is considered. I'm just starting clinical year, so I'm doing my best to get as many Honors as possible. So far, it's been pretty tough. I've also had no time to do any research since clerkships started, so that's not great either. In short, I have no idea if I'll be AOA, but I can try.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

The advice on these threads can be confusing, because everyone's situation is different.

In some other fields, away rotations are essentially required. It's very difficult to get an Ortho, Derm, or ENT spot without away rotations. Not impossible, but most people have them.

In IM, they are not required at all. Most candidates do not have them, but some do. An away rotation can certainly get you noticed by a program, and if there's a very specific program you want then a good performance at that site may make the difference. Of course a poor performance will also make a difference, just not in the direction you are looking for. Whether a personalized PS explaining why you're interested in that program, along with the new signals we have, would essentially fill the same need is unclear -- but probably true.

So, if you're already a competitive candidate for those sites, unclear if an away will change anything as a signal + competitive candidate + PS explaining why you want to be there may simply get you an interview. If you're not a competitive candidate, then it's also unlikely to make any difference -- no matter how well you do there, if you don't meet their minimum criteria you won't get an interview. Where it might make the difference is in the grey zone between those two, and there's no way to know if you're in that grey zone.

Of course, perhaps an away rotation there is a chance to be closer to home and something you just want to do anyway. In that case, might as well regardless of the above.

All of this is for US MD candidates. For DO and IMG candidates, an away rotation may make all of the difference. Unfortunately, DO MSPE's are often less than helpful and it can be very difficult to assess performance, more so for IMG's. A local rotation with an excellent performance could have a huge impact. This assumes that the program takes DO/IMG's and that your exam scores fit their ranges.

So, clear as mud.

TL;DR version: If you want to do it and it won't be a huge financial imposition, go right ahead. If not, signal + personalized PS is probably about as good. And perhaps most importantly, one of my away rotations (years ago) told me where I did NOT want to be -- and that was very helpful.

 

[GotToGetThatGPAUp]

They’ll help if you’re charismatic and or good looking. If not, probably not worth it

Perfect

 

[deleted1095841]

The advice on these threads can be confusing, because everyone's situation is different.

In some other fields, away rotations are essentially required. It's very difficult to get an Ortho, Derm, or ENT spot without away rotations. Not impossible, but most people have them.

In IM, they are not required at all. Most candidates do not have them, but some do. An away rotation can certainly get you noticed by a program, and if there's a very specific program you want then a good performance at that site may make the difference. Of course a poor performance will also make a difference, just not in the direction you are looking for. Whether a personalized PS explaining why you're interested in that program, along with the new signals we have, would essentially fill the same need is unclear -- but probably true.

So, if you're already a competitive candidate for those sites, unclear if an away will change anything as a signal + competitive candidate + PS explaining why you want to be there may simply get you an interview. If you're not a competitive candidate, then it's also unlikely to make any difference -- no matter how well you do there, if you don't meet their minimum criteria you won't get an interview. Where it might make the difference is in the grey zone between those two, and there's no way to know if you're in that grey zone.

Of course, perhaps an away rotation there is a chance to be closer to home and something you just want to do anyway. In that case, might as well regardless of the above.

All of this is for US MD candidates. For DO and IMG candidates, an away rotation may make all of the difference. Unfortunately, DO MSPE's are often less than helpful and it can be very difficult to assess performance, more so for IMG's. A local rotation with an excellent performance could have a huge impact. This assumes that the program takes DO/IMG's and that your exam scores fit their ranges.

So, clear as mud.

TL;DR version: If you want to do it and it won't be a huge financial imposition, go right ahead. If not, signal + personalized PS is probably about as good. And perhaps most importantly, one of my away rotations (years ago) told me where I did NOT want to be -- and that was very helpful.

Really appreciate your advice!
What are the minimum criteria like for these sort of programs?
Is it something intense like all Honors, 260 Step 2, and 10 publications?
Or something more forgiving?

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Really appreciate your advice!
What are the minimum criteria like for these sort of programs?
Is it something intense like all Honors, 260 Step 2, and 10 publications?
Or something more forgiving?

Who knows?

 

[AnonymousDoctorGuyPerson]

Are these aways in regular plain IM, or in an IM subspecialty?
I ask because it might be a bit repetitive to do IM again, since it is a required clerkship at nearly all medical schools.

Honestly both lol, mostly just plain IM.

 

[deleted1095841]

Update: Clinical year is almost over and my grades have not been that great. I'm reluctant to do an away rotation because whatever was causing me to not get the best grades may also cause me to make a poor impression.

So I was thinking: Is it possible to do an away research rotation? Is this something people do?
My school allows me to spend a month or two on an "independently arranged elective," which need not necessarily be clinical. I was thinking this might be a way to put my best foot forward, and get to participate in a cool project.

 

[Putkernerinthehall]

Maybe consider an IM away rotation at a program where you feel like you are very competitive. So not a top tier place but someplace that you'd like to do residency and where your grades / performance are commensurate. I'm not sure if a research rotation buys you a whole lot given the short duration.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Do not do a short research rotation. You're very unlikely to get anything done. And since you'll have such a short time there, they will likely give you menial work to get done.

 

[deleted1095841]

What if I start a project then and continue it afterwards?

 

[MDMechEngr]

They’ll help if you’re charismatic and or good looking. If not, probably not worth it

Concur 100%. 1) If people are drawn to you because of your charisma, you are golden. 2) good stats is necessary also, but 3) good looks is that icing on the bundt cake. Few of us have all 3. Some have none. Everyone else is in between. Do an away sub-I if you got 1 and 3. If you only have 2, it is not necessary to rotate there.