Aways: Where/When

[gstrub]

Hello all,

I am strongly considering ENT and have a question or two about aways, particularly about when to apply and if it will help me to do two (and which two I should do)...

My family medicine rotation is at the end of my 3rd year. I was planning on moving it to 4th year so I can do an ENT AI at my program (which would be right after my surgery rotation). I was then planning on taking Step II, which would be in early August. That gives me the possibility of doing two back to back away rotations before interview season.

Did anyone do 2 away rotations? How did you choose which two? Should I be applying now? I just read somewhere that people are already applying and it was a little surprising.

Any input any of you have would be much appreciated.
Thanks,
G

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[jsong812]

bump.

 

[blz]

I am interviewing now so my opinion might not matter. However, I believe that doing aways in ENT is only important if you need to make up for a deficiency in your application, need to get LORs from prominent faculty, or you want to get a feel for a program you are considering. If you look good on paper (which you may because you are MD/PhD), you are more likely to hurt your chances.

I did one away and it was helpful in that the program I was considering has moved down my rank list.

This might be completely unrelated or coincidental, but most of the people I have met on the interview trail at the top 10 programs have done on average 0-1 aways.

 

[medstylee]

i think there are plenty of good reasons to do an away rotation. i am also on the interview trail now and i'd say prob 90% of the applicants i've talked to have done at least 1 away. regionality plays a huge part in this process. so, if you're interested in an area where you maybe don't have many convincing ties, then an away in that area would be a good idea. obviously make sure to include that in your essay or get a letter of rec from someone there. i did an away in a city where i am not from and i received 3 interviews in that city - i have a good feeling i wouldn't have been that successful in that region if i hadn't done the away. some programs have tons of rotators (i can't even keep count of how many people i've met who rotated at mt sinai or thomas jefferson...) and some of those places interview all of those people. so, if you have a place that interviews 35 people total and they have 20 rotators... well, good luck getting that interview without rotating there... like blz said, if you have some sort of a hole in your app, then a rotation could make you shine above that, esp at a reach school. i don't really know what this "top 10" list is that blz refers to (hey, blz, i'd be interested to hear which ones you refer to...), but if s/he is referring to places like hopkins, uw, etc (which is what i'm assuming), well from my experience those places place a really high value on those who have done a year of research rather than those who have the highest board scores or grades. so, i'd think if you're shooting for a place like that, maybe doing a year of research there might be something to consider, if it's something you'd be willing to do, of course.

i think it's way too early to apply for rotations now. some places might start accepting apps in feb or march. i think most places didn't start accepting until april or may. i applied to one and turned my app in in mid april (few weeks after they started accepting apps) and i got my first choice month - august. if you're doing an away with the thought of gettign a letter, i'd shoot for july or august. september is fine, but you're gonna be late with the letter for sure. be sure to look into different places and how the rotations are. some places are notorious for being really rigorous (which could be a good thing, actually) while some are really lax and don't give rotators a good hands-on experience. some places make it a policy to interview all rotators while other places don't (mayo rochester and ucla come to mind from what i've heard on the trail).

in any case, i think there are enough reasons to do an away that, if you're thinking about one, you should go for it. just plan it out properly. and, when you get there, be on your A game... that's kind of a given. best of luck.

 

[medstylee]

i think there are plenty of good reasons to do an away rotation. i am also on the interview trail now and i'd say prob 90% of the applicants i've talked to have done at least 1 away. regionality plays a huge part in this process. so, if you're interested in an area where you maybe don't have many convincing ties, then an away in that area would be a good idea. obviously make sure to include that in your essay or get a letter of rec from someone there. i did an away in a city where i am not from and i received 3 interviews in that city - i have a good feeling i wouldn't have been that successful in that region if i hadn't done the away. some programs have tons of rotators (i can't even keep count of how many people i've met who rotated at mt sinai or thomas jefferson...) and some of those places interview all of those people. so, if you have a place that interviews 35 people total and they have 20 rotators... well, good luck getting that interview without rotating there... like blz said, if you have some sort of a hole in your app, then a rotation could make you shine above that, esp at a reach school. i don't really know what this "top 10" list is that blz refers to (hey, blz, i'd be interested to hear which ones you refer to...), but if s/he is referring to places like hopkins, uw, etc (which is what i'm assuming), well from my experience those places place a really high value on those who have done a year of research rather than those who have the highest board scores or grades. so, i'd think if you're shooting for a place like that, maybe doing a year of research there might be something to consider, if it's something you'd be willing to do, of course.

i think it's way too early to apply for rotations now. some places might start accepting apps in feb or march. i think most places didn't start accepting until april or may. i applied to one and turned my app in in mid april (few weeks after they started accepting apps) and i got my first choice month - august. if you're doing an away with the thought of gettign a letter, i'd shoot for july or august. september is fine, but you're gonna be late with the letter for sure. be sure to look into different places and how the rotations are. some places are notorious for being really rigorous (which could be a good thing, actually) while some are really lax and don't give rotators a good hands-on experience. some places make it a policy to interview all rotators while other places don't (mayo rochester and ucla come to mind from what i've heard on the trail).

in any case, i think there are enough reasons to do an away that, if you're thinking about one, you should go for it. just plan it out properly. and, when you get there, be on your A game... that's kind of a given. best of luck.

 

[blz]

I forgot to mention the regionality point that medstyle brought up. That is another important reason to do an away rotation.

I didn't apply to many programs on the west coast, but out of the ones that I did, I only received 1 interview. I'm guessing it's because I have zero ties to the west or there are tons of people on the west coast with better stats than me.

Also, another point to consider is that there are some programs that DO NOT provide courtesy interviews to rotators. So make sure you note the history of the program you are considering. I know for a fact that UCLA, Mayo and Stanford do not provide all their rotators with interviews. Other programs like Penn have a separate interview day just for rotators (but they end up interviewing 60+ people because they interview all rotators).

 

[blz]

i don't really know what this "top 10" list is that blz refers to (hey, blz, i'd be interested to hear which ones you refer to...)

I was just referring to the USNews top 10. However, I am quite aware that there are some very strong programs out there that are not usnews top 10 (such as Jefferson) and some top 10 programs that I believe shouldn't belong there.

 

[TubesNTonsils]

An away rotation can be a nail in your coffin or a golden ticket, depending on how well the rotation goes. If you want to match in a certain region of the country, strongly consider doing an away rotation. But if you're someone who has awesome grades and step 1 score but got lackluster evaluations during your clinical rotations, think twice. Your scores alone may buy you an interview, but if the rotation goes poorly you're in bad shape. On the other hand, if your scores are average, a great rotation could turn into the reason why you get the interview.

 

[jsong812]

Can anyone recommend good programs to rotate through in Cali, NYC, Boston or DC? I've been born and raised in Chicago so I don't know much about the other programs other than what I read on their websites. Thanks!

 

[blz]

On the west coast, Stanford, UCSF and UCLA seem to be popular for away rotations.

I know the east well and I would rotate at an institution that has big names (for letters) but also gives you different experiences. Places I would consider on the east would be:

Penn - a classic example of a program where the residents work REALLY hard. great sinus and innovative head and neck (lots of robotics). philly is a great city

Mt. Sinai or NYU - depending on what type of experience you want, whether it be lots of head and neck (Mt. Sinai) or a great otology and clinic experience (NYU). see if nyc is a good fit for you

MEEI or Hopkins - great otology and big names; see if research is your cup of tea

Jefferson - GREAT operative experience (3000+ case logs). They operate so much here and have a lot of autonomy. You will probably be first assist with an attending or do a whole case with a chief resident. Philly is cool.

Bottom line though, as long as you have a very solid application you will get interviews all over. I actually never went to the west coast EVER and received numerous interviews from that coast just based on having a solid application (if you look up a few posts I mention that I only got one interview from that coast, I actually received more after that point). Also remember, there are programs that historically DO NOT give courtesy interviews for those that rotate and have strict number cut offs. Programs that come to mind include Stanford, UCLA, MEEI and Mayo.

I'm going through the interview process right now so feel free to ask any more questions.

 

[jsong812]

Thanks Blz--that was very helpful. Any other thoughts?