back biting at hospitals?

[Neurologo]

Moderators: For some reason I have no access to "Practicing physician" forum despite my updating my status as attending physician. Since the issue is also relevant to residents and to all specialities, I felt appropriate to post it here.

Currently I am working at a large non-profit Christian hospital group. After my first 6 months, I was given a collection of complaints about me written up by all kinds of people but mostly from RNs and physicians. All were trivial issues easily explained away. It is very odd why these people could not address the issues to me directly and easily resolve any misunderstanding right away like adults. I would only report to a mediator (often supervisors) if I failed to resolve it with the person in question. Then I realized that everyone is doing this backhanded reporting here. I feel like by not doing the same I am at a disadvantage since many things would go unreported about others while I am getting these petty complaints. Then I felt how pathetic and childish this all is.

Before I bring this up to the CEO and CMO of this place, I wanted to ask you what your views are on this. If this is happening even in this supposedly a religiously oriented hospital, I wonder if this is happening in ALL hospitals? If so, why has this become an accepted system?

I think this back reporting without the knowledge of the person involved goes on even in residencies. This system makes one feel shocked, back stabbed and betrayed and clearly engenders a police state like atmosphere where everyone is reporting everyone else in vengeance. I do not understand why hospitals do not create a system where two parties are encouraged to resolve the issue directly in person, and to involve the supervisors when such attempt fails. My experience is that this direct resolution actually promotes healthy camaraderie and positive feelings in improving imperfections.

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[PlutoBoy]

Moderators: For some reason I have no access to "Practicing physician" forum despite my updating my status as attending physician. Since the issue is also relevant to residents and to all specialities, I felt appropriate to post it here.

Currently I am working at a large non-profit Christian hospital group. After my first 6 months, I was given a collection of complaints about me written up by all kinds of people but mostly from RNs and physicians. All were trivial issues easily explained away. It is very odd why these people could not address the issues to me directly and easily resolve any misunderstanding right away like adults. I would only report to a mediator (often supervisors) if I failed to resolve it with the person in question. Then I realized that everyone is doing this backhanded reporting here. I feel like by not doing the same I am at a disadvantage since many things would go unreported about others while I am getting these complaints. Then I felt how pathetic and childish this all is.

Before I bring this up to the CEO and CMO of this place, I wanted to ask you what your views are on this. Is this happening in all hospitals? If so, why has this become an accepted system?

I think this back reporting without the knowledge of the person involved goes on even in residencies. This system makes one feel shocked, back stabbed and betrayed and clearly engenders a police state like atmosphere where everyone is reporting everyone else in vengeance. I do not understand why hospitals do not create a system where two parties are encouraged to resolve the issue directly in person, and to involve the supervisors when such attempts fails. My experience is that this direct resolution actually promotes healthy camaraderie and positive feelings in improving imperfections.

Nurses will complain about everything and I don't put much value to it. Never had a colleague file a formal complaint against me. If multiple colleagues filed formal complaints against me I would take it seriously. Introspection may be needed.

Regardless, if you find yourself in a hostile situation it is better to look for greener pastures elsewhere. These situations rarely end well. Everything you do or don't do will be looked at with suspicion.

It is better to leave on your own terms than being terminated or worse have an adverse (although subjective) report on your NPDB for "unprofessionalism".

 

[Crayola227]

good points although I'm not sure what the extra detail that this is a Christian hospital group has to do with anything

I was completely sympathetic to everything you said, but because of that comment, which I feel shows some degree of insensitivity and prejudice, I have to wonder if this is part of your problem at work

I mean, you've managed to alienate an online total stranger that is generally on the side of the "little people" not the "the Man," and isn't particularly religious, in one single post

I seriously wonder how you're rubbing people at work, and I suspect it's wrong, and not wrong in the haha way

 

[Neurologo]

All the reports on me were trivial and confirmed to be nonissue such as a hospitalist complaining I did not write a note on a patient when it was because no one called me about the patient. Even my own director told me to ignore these and not to be bothered.

I added the fact of Christian hospital because I myself is a Christian and believe this practice is against Christian spirit of doing things. So when I see this happening here, I wonder if this is something practiced in all hospitals due to a false belief that this is actually good. But I see how my post could have misinterpreted as you felt. I edited my original post to avoid it in others.

 

[Crayola227]

I called you out, because I think this is the becoming the system *everywhere,* as you point out

I think it part of the modern medical institutional culture and I don't think it's particularly reflective of hospitals with religious affiliations

if anything, it almost seems more part of an
ultra-PC, millennial conflict-avoidant, numerical-score, credential, QI, obsessed-driven system where
"providers" are cogs in a machine that treats humans as hamburger waiting to happen in a for-profit grist mill,
that is, if anything, spiritually empty, and I mean that from a philosophical standpoint, nothing to do with what anyone does on Sundays

I agree that it isn't particularly Christian

it isn't particularly useful either

 

[Crayola227]

I think this back reporting without the knowledge of the person involved goes on even in residencies. This system makes one feel shocked, back stabbed and betrayed and clearly engenders a police state like atmosphere where everyone is reporting everyone else in vengeance. I do not understand why hospitals do not create a system where two parties are encouraged to resolve the issue directly in person, and to involve the supervisors when such attempt fails. My experience is that this direct resolution actually promotes healthy camaraderie and positive feelings in improving imperfections.

Yeah I totally agree here.

I agree the direct approach leads to better results, but it takes way more courage. Which is why it doesn't happen as often.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Ignore it. If you start filing these reports against others then they will do it right back to you even more so. You're a physician, it takes major issues for them to get rid of you.

 

[Neurologo]

So it is the way everywhere.
And administrators must think this is useful since they are perpetuating. But I wonder if this practice began in old academic centers training residents to collect reviews on them.

Yeah I totally agree here.

I agree the direct approach leads to better results, but it takes way more courage. Which is why it doesn't happen as often.

I guess that is possible for shy people. But things could be brought up in a neutral way. For example, that hospitalist could have approached or called me and say, "Hey, I did not see a note from you. I was just wondering what happened."

 

[psych md jd]

In the good old days, two people could resolve their differences directly, face to face.

And then, LAWYERS got involved.

Now there are policies and procedures that need to be followed: chain of command issues, supervisory issues. And then, don't forget state and federal labor laws, as well as discrimination and harassment laws.

As an employer, I have a labor attorney on retainer. Didn't used to, but employees thesedays say and do the darndest things.

 

[rokshana]

btw, you can't just update your profile to show you are an attending physician ( i mean anyone can do THAT), you have to be verified by sdn as out of residency.

 

[Neurologo]

btw, you can't just update your profile to show you are an attending physician ( i mean anyone can do THAT), you have to be verified by sdn as out of residency.

I see. Thank you for letting me know.

 

[evilbooyaa]

good points although I'm not sure what the extra detail that this is a Christian hospital group has to do with anything

I was completely sympathetic to everything you said, but because of that comment, which I feel shows some degree of insensitivity and prejudice, I have to wonder if this is part of your problem at work

I mean, you've managed to alienate an online total stranger that is generally on the side of the "little people" not the "the Man," and isn't particularly religious, in one single post

I seriously wonder how you're rubbing people at work, and I suspect it's wrong, and not wrong in the haha way

Are you serious? That, IMO, is a complete over-reaction to text online. That may be your personality, and if so, whatever. However, he mentioned it's a Christian hospital, therefore you assume that he's insensitive and prejudiced, and therefore HE is the problem, not his situation (which is a dumb situation for an attending physician to be in).

This is the definition of the easily offended 'Snowflake' mentality.

On topic - Sucks, OP. People are gonna write reports on you for anything deemed as a microaggression. Don't start writing your own on them, as a doctor it's going to take an awful lot for the hospital to actually act. Alternatively, looking for greener pastures or discussing lack of job satisfaction with people who won't even try to complain to your face may get the hospital to bend if they need you more than you need them. If vice-versa, probably not the greatest move.

 

[Crayola227]

Are you serious? That, IMO, is a complete over-reaction to text online. That may be your personality, and if so, whatever. However, he mentioned it's a Christian hospital, therefore you assume that he's insensitive and prejudiced, and therefore HE is the problem, not his situation (which is a dumb situation for an attending physician to be in).

This is the definition of the easily offended 'Snowflake' mentality.

On topic - Sucks, OP. People are gonna write reports on you for anything deemed as a microaggression. Don't start writing your own on them, as a doctor it's going to take an awful lot for the hospital to actually act. Alternatively, looking for greener pastures or discussing lack of job satisfaction with people who won't even try to complain to your face may get the hospital to bend if they need you more than you need them. If vice-versa, probably not the greatest move.

Even though the OP says they are Christian and therefore have no issue with the hospital organization being Christian, the original comment still could be taken as showing prejudice and insensitivity.

I never said I was offended. I said I was alienated and questioned if this sort of attitude was what was causing problems at work. Just because I worry for the OP that this is the sort of thing that microaggression sensitive individuals would report or get upset about, doesn't mean I would.

I did what I would do in real life -- I would say something to the person directly, for their benefit, not mine.

I'm all about toeing the line at work and policing that ****, not because I care about that ****, but because if people don't then someone gets hurt. I get called to meetings where I have to testify about all the idiotic things the med students and residents were saying. Idiotic as in, "why does anyone give a ****?", "why do we have to have a meeting about this?" (hint it's because no matter how reasonable the attending or "how dumb the situation is for the attending" the problem always comes down to patients, the insitution can't control the culture to make them stop feeling microaggressed where they shouldn't), and idiotic as in, "why in the **** did they not realize that saying that was going to cause ****?"

When you are the subject of multiple complaints at work, it's time to embrace the idea that you are in fact the problem that needs solving. To do otherwise is the definition of "Snowflake" mentality.

 

[Raryn]

Moderators: For some reason I have no access to "Practicing physician" forum despite my updating my status as attending physician. Since the issue is also relevant to residents and to all specialities, I felt appropriate to post it here.

Just an FYI, practicing physician forum requires you to be verified, which involves submitting a copy of your license to the administrative staff. It isn't shared with anyone or anything, they just want it to be a bit more of a locked down system than "anyone who updates their status to attending".

Doctor Verification

 

[Psai]

Most people these days are unable to take criticism. They get upset over the most trivial things and have no problem writing nonsense complaints to whoever is in charge especially when they're not brave enough to talk to you face to face. Our society is quickly tearing itself apart by accentuating differences under the guise of diversity and inclusion. Saying you're offended is now seen as some sort of badge of honor instead of a cone of shame.

 

[AdmiralChz]

These reports systems aren't great. You can call it whatever euphemism you want for us it was "patient safety report" which was little more than "complain about the MD report." Unfortunately, many nurses feel this is the only way their concerns are heard and taken seriously (rather than, you know, just talking with someone directly like a normal person), and right now many hospitals (particularly busy academic centers) area really struggling with RN retention so it's important for them to keep them happy. Otherwise they leave and the hospital either has to go through the hassle and expense of hiring and training another nurse or, increasingly commonly, turn to a locums agency in a pinch which is absurdly expensive.

Such things are pervasive all throughout healthcare, and it's unfortunate. On the flip side a physician it is MUCH more expensive and inconvenient to find a replacement for you so the effect of these reports are usually minimal. Going to the hospital's administration about it as a new hire seems excessive, at the least. I was written up several times as a resident, some for questionable reasons and some that honestly gave me some introspection in my behavior and sparked some personal change.

 

[akwho]

This is going to sound paranoid, but I think hospitals like to have on file written complaints about every employee, and especially MD's so they can fire with cause whenever it is in their best interest. Nice to have a long paper trail to CYA before you pull the trigger on someone. If they are a good employee with complaints, it's simple, just ignore the complaints. If they are causing trouble for the management, "long documented history of interpersonal and professional issues" and sayonara.

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

This is going to sound paranoid, but I think hospitals like to have on file written complaints about every employee, and especially MD's so they can fire with cause whenever it is in their best interest. Nice to have a long paper trail to CYA before you pull the trigger on someone. If they are a good employee with complaints, it's simple, just ignore the complaints. If they are causing trouble for the management, "long documented history of interpersonal and professional issues" and sayonara.

This is why it pays to be a teacher's pet, a brown noser, research junkie, etc. Because ultimately they can and do fire MD's for no other reason than simply wanting to get rid of them and conveniently retrospectively characterize (or re-characterize, whatever is easier for HR) the basis for termination as some sort of "professionalism issue," provided the appropriate paper trail exists. Sure takes the arbitrary and capricious out of the picture if they can establish a documented pattern of behavior, whatever that may be given the whims of those in power on that particular day or week.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

As a residency PD, I see complaints from nursing about residents on a regular basis. However not every resident gets complaints -- they tend to cluster in a few residents. The thing that separates those residents who get complaints from the rest is their communication skills. It's not the "event" that creates the complaint, its your reaction to it. Perhaps people are trying to give you direct feedback, but they sense that you are not open to feedback.

When I give residents feedback about this, the response is virtually uniform -- the problem is the nurses, they complain about everyone. The resident usually completely denies that they could be part of the problem at all.

 

[Neurologo]

It is good to see interesting insights from all different angles to this topic.
I do think this one below along with what Psychmdjd wrote above may explain best why hospital administrators perpetuate this culture of policing each other.

This is going to sound paranoid, but I think hospitals like to have on file written complaints about every employee, and especially MD's so they can fire with cause whenever it is in their best interest. Nice to have a long paper trail to CYA before you pull the trigger on someone. If they are a good employee with complaints, it's simple, just ignore the complaints. If they are causing trouble for the management, "long documented history of interpersonal and professional issues" and sayonara.

As for me, I have not heard any more reports against me for 2 yrs after that first 6 months. One may say it was an adjustment pain. But it is distasteful to know that such reporting system persists.

 

[Gastrapathy]

So...maybe the system worked? To generate complaints from multiple doctors and nurses suggests you were at least part of the problem. Now you've modified your behavior so that pattern has stopped.

 

[Neurologo]

So...maybe the system worked? To generate complaints from multiple doctors and nurses suggests you were at least part of the problem. Now you've modified your behavior so that pattern has stopped.

You assume too much. It was just 5 reports; 3 from hospitalists for trivial issues easily explained and one from an MRI tech who did not understand my right to order a specific imaging without radiologist's approval. One from an RN who was not doing her duty and was later fired. No, I am the same and behave the same; no need of modifying anything. As people got to know me and how I work and what I can do and cannot do, they adjusted and no more issues.

For 2 years it has been quiet for me but recently two of my colleagues had issues with this back biting; in fact one had to pay a lawyer to clear his reputation. The other was just greatly annoyed. So, the systemic issue was brought up to my attention again and thus my posting here to get others' views. I did not want to talk about others' stories but just give my example. But since others here can learn from this and since the posters above brought up similar ideas, I will share more given anonymity.

One of my colleague wanted to break the contract and leave this place because he was not happy about the city and few other reasons. The administrators suddenly issued a peer review requiring him to improve the issues brought up by various staff, RNs and other physicians with a warning that if he fails to improve in certain amount of time, he will be put on probation of some sort. None of these were discussed or brought up to him before and some of the items were just outright lies as far as he was concerned. What is funny is that they issued this notice and summary review few days AFTER he had already submitted the resignation. So what is the real point of this when he is leaving anyway? To create a justifiable reason for the administrators to lose a physician in the middle of the contract. How does he know this? The administrators have spread the rumor to the group that he was quiting because he did not want to satisfy the requested improvements. He got a help from a lawyer who immediately forced the administrators to withdraw the rumor and that peer review.

This is why I believe what Psychmdjd and Akwho said make the most sense as to why this reporting system is favored by administrators. I think all of us can learn from this and be aware that such things do happen around us.

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

As a residency PD, I see complaints from nursing about residents on a regular basis. However not every resident gets complaints -- they tend to cluster in a few residents. The thing that separates those residents who get complaints from the rest is their communication skills. It's not the "event" that creates the complaint, its your reaction to it. Perhaps people are trying to give you direct feedback, but they sense that you are not open to feedback.

When I give residents feedback about this, the response is virtually uniform -- the problem is the nurses, they complain about everyone. The resident usually completely denies that they could be part of the problem at all.

Playing devil's advocate for a moment: what do you do when you get a cluster of complaints from residents about one or two nurses, and is this generally a reflection of that particular nurse's inability to accept feedback?

My experience is that PD's and residents are powerless against hospital employees/union members, no matter how grave the alleged "communication" or "professionalism" issue.

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

You assume too much. It was just 5 reports; 3 from hospitalists for trivial issues easily explained and one from an MRI tech who did not understand my right to order a specific imaging without radiologist's approval. One from an RN who was not doing her duty and was later fired. No, I am the same and behave the same; no need of modifying anything. As people got to know me and how I work and what I can do and cannot do, they adjusted and no more issues.

For 2 years it has been quiet for me but recently two of my colleagues had issues with this back biting; in fact one had to pay a lawyer to clear his reputation. The other was just greatly annoyed. So, the systemic issue was brought up to my attention again and thus my posting here to get others' views. I did not want to talk about others' stories but just give my example. But since others here can learn from this and since the posters above brought up similar ideas, I will share more given anonymity.

One of my colleague wanted to break the contract and leave this place because he was not happy about the city and few other reasons. The administrators suddenly issued a peer review requiring him to improve the issues brought up by various staff, RNs and other physicians with a warning that if he fails to improve in certain amount of time, he will be put on probation of some sort. None of these were discussed or brought up to him before and some of the items were just outright lies as far as he was concerned. What is funny is that they issued this notice and summary review few days AFTER he had already submitted the resignation. So what is the real point of this when he is leaving anyway? To create a justifiable reason for the administrators to lose a physician in the middle of the contract. How does he know this? The administrators have spread the rumor to the group that he was quiting because he did not want to satisfy the requested improvements. He got a help from a lawyer who immediately forced the administrators to withdraw the rumor and that peer review.

This is why I believe what Psychmdjd and Akwho said make the most sense as to why this reporting system is favored by administrators. I think all of us can learn from this and be aware that such things do happen around us.

Exactly.

The second a laywer gets involved, everyone is "forced" to play by the rules. It's virtually child's play for an internal hospital based entity to justifiably create/fabricate an "issue" -- and the resident or employee is effectively helpless against this process once the wagons start circling. The hawthorne effect of counsel changes everything, assuming you don't wait until the nails are already in the coffin.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Exactly.

The second a laywer gets involved, everyone is "forced" to play by the rules. It's virtually child's play for an internal hospital based entity to justifiably create/fabricate an "issue" -- and the resident or employee is effectively helpless against this process once the wagons start circling. The hawthorne effect of counsel changes everything, assuming you don't wait until the nails are already in the coffin.

This is complete nonsense. Hospitals will follow the appropriate rules to fire you if that's what they decide to do precisely so that a smart lawyer can't just come and get everything overturned.

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

This is complete nonsense. Hospitals will follow the appropriate rules to fire you if that's what they decide to do precisely so that a smart lawyer can't just come and get everything overturned.

Following the rules is only part of it (and many don't because they are the rules). Plus, if the hospital's actions are sincere, then it wouldn't matter really. But, as we have seen, often times they aren't, and that's when a skilled lawyer can pick apart at the weak fabric of a fabricated issue.

Lies (convenient documentation) can only go so far before they start contradicting one another.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Following the rules is only part of it (and many don't because they are the rules). Plus, if the hospital's actions are sincere, then it wouldn't matter really. But, as we have seen, often times they aren't, and that's when a skilled lawyer can pick apart at the weak fabric of a fabricated issue.

Lies (convenient documentation) can only go so far before they start contradicting one another.

So tell me, in your vast experience: how often has a lawyer been successful at getting a fired doctor reinstated?

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

I think you're missing the point. The idea is to prevent the unlawful termination (or adverse action, etc.) in the first place, which is orders of magnitude easier than being re-instated after an unlawful termination.

A paper trail can be created to support just about anything a hospital wants to do (I'm sure you're aware). The longer you wait, the more substantial that paper trail becomes and therefore diffucult to refute no matter how inconsistent with reality.

Even that poor resident starts to believe they have a professionalism issue after a while...because the evaluations say so.

So tell me, in your vast experience: how often has a lawyer been successful at getting a fired doctor reinstated?

 

[Gastrapathy]

Kinda exactly the response aPD described no? 3 formal physician complaints about your behavior in 6 months is remarkable.

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

Kinda exactly the response aPD described no? 3 formal physician complaints about your behavior in 6 months is remarkable.

If the disciplinary action sincerely reflects a pattern of behavior inconsistent with the tenants of being a physician, then the system has done well. Some residents (and attendings, and nurses, etc.) really deserve to be terminated...and there must exist a formal process for doing so.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I think you're missing the point. The idea is to prevent the unlawful termination (or adverse action, etc.) in the first place, which is orders of magnitude easier than being re-instated after an unlawful termination.

A paper trail can be created to support just about anything a hospital wants to do (I'm sure you're aware). The longer you wait, the more substantial that paper trail becomes and therefore diffucult to refute no matter how inconsistent with reality.

Even that poor resident starts to believe they have a professionalism issue after a while...because the evaluations say so.

All true, and none of which really needs a lawyer (nor would they be of much value).

 

[Crayola227]

it's something in the middle of what's being said here

with the current system everyone gets complaints, and the hospital, with the help of HR and their own attorney, can easily get rid of you anytime they want

there's not much you can do about keeping your job at that point

however, getting your own attorney can ensure that you aren't totally boned in the process: you could get a severance package, assistance paying COBRA premiums, $$$, a negotiated letter of reference, confidentiality agreement, protection from certain further actions

it's not always whether or not you're going to go through the door, but whether or not you get a boot in the ass and a Scarlet letter to wear going forward, or a picnic basket

#facts

 

[Crayola227]

a lawyer can be of enormous value when you are losing your job, just maybe not to keep the job

you might even get enough from the hospital to not only make the attorney free, but bring you back in the black along with all the other non-monetary benefits you might get

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

it's something in the middle of what's being said here

with the current system everyone gets complaints, and the hospital, with the help of HR and their own attorney, can easily get rid of you anytime they want

there's not much you can do about keeping your job at that point

however, getting your own attorney can ensure that you aren't totally boned in the process: you could get a severance package, assistance paying COBRA premiums, $$$, a negotiated letter of reference, confidentiality agreement, protection from certain further actions

it's not always whether or not you're going to go through the door, but whether or not you get a boot in the ass and a Scarlet letter to wear going forward, or a picnic basket

#facts

Meh, the only value I would see is having a lawyer look over your contract.

Last job I had, I got worried they were going to fire me. So, I looked over my contract with a fine-toothed comb. They can fire without cause with 90 days notice. For cause its limited to: losing any of my various licenses/credentials (DEA, medical, staff, Medicare, and so forth). Getting arrested. Or if I do something on the job that they don't like but ONLY after they have given me official notice of a problem and I don't fix it within 14 days.

It takes a massive amount of ****ery to get fired as a physician. The worst case is they without cause release you, but in that event you don't get the Scarlet letter you're worried about.

 

[psych md jd]

a lawyer can be of enormous value when you are losing your job, just maybe not to keep the job

you might even get enough from the hospital to not only make the attorney free, but bring you back in the black along with all the other non-monetary benefits you might get

IME, firing employees ain't easy.

You have to think about whistle blower statutes and retaliatory firing, due process, discrimination, hostile work environment issues, and potential civil rights violations.

Termination of employees has to be 100% in accord with policy or it can turn into an absolute disaster for the employer.

And even with a "clean" termination, some former employees have nothing to lose and file a nuisance lawsuit in hopes you will settle.


Better call Saul.

 

[Crayola227]

IME, firing employees ain't easy.

You have to think about whistle blower statutes and retaliatory firing, due process, discrimination, hostile work environment issues, and potential civil rights violations.

Termination of employees has to be 100% in accord with policy or it can turn into an absolute disaster for the employer.

And even with a "clean" termination, some former employees have nothing to lose and file a nuisance lawsuit in hopes you will settle.


Better call Saul.

it's actually a great point

it seem what I hear is that employers find that checking all the boxes and avoiding hassle is difficult, whereas the employees find that employers finding ways *to* check those boxes seems fairly easy, which is why I suspect the whole thing can easily become a quagmire

it's always said how difficult it is to fire people, then people who get fired seem to find that it was easier than they thought, so I leave it to advise people to take any sorts of work complaints and paper trails very seriously

 

[cbrons]

I see Light at the end of the tunnel got the old heave ho. Wonder what it was that done him in.

 

[Raryn]

I see Light at the end of the tunnel got the old heave ho. Wonder what it was that done him in.

It's ok. I have it from a good source he's already hired a lawyer that's going to get his account reinstated.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

It's ok. I have it from a good source he's already hired a lawyer that's going to get his account reinstated.

Post of the Week right here.

 

[Goro]

I see Light at the end of the tunnel got the old heave ho. Wonder what it was that done him in.

I'm wondering too. Maybe people got tired of constant yet inexpert legal advice?

Even though the OP says they are Christian and therefore have no issue with the hospital organization being Christian, the original comment still could be taken as showing prejudice and insensitivity.


And @Crayola227, I think that the OP was trying to make the point that s/he worked at a Christian hospital, hence, OP was surprised that perhaps not turning the other cheek. I can't see how anyone would be offended by mere mention of the affiliation of the hospital.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Playing devil's advocate for a moment: what do you do when you get a cluster of complaints from residents about one or two nurses, and is this generally a reflection of that particular nurse's inability to accept feedback?

My experience is that PD's and residents are powerless against hospital employees/union members, no matter how grave the alleged "communication" or "professionalism" issue.

If multiple residents complain about a specific nurse, I absolutely do something about it. And, yes, it usually reflects a communication problem with that nurse, or more rarely a clinical skill problem. I bring the problem to the attention of the nurse leader of the unit involved. I explain that the complaints are a pattern and well out of the range of normal. It's their problem to address and fix as they see fit, but I make it clear that if the complaints continue, further action will ensue. I also make it clear that I'm happy to help if needed.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I see Light at the end of the tunnel got the old heave ho. Wonder what it was that done him in.

Multiple accounts and using them to troll and sock puppet, misrepresentation of status/identity as well as being a formerly banned user are all good reasons. The trouble with deceit and lying is that eventually you trip up and/or it catches up to you.

 

[WheezyBaby]

Multiple accounts and using them to troll and sock puppet, misrepresentation of status/identity as well as being a formerly banned user are all good reasons. The trouble with deceit and lying is that eventually you trip up and/or it catches up to you.

Time to look through threads and see what other posters disappeared

 

[DermADVISOR]

Moderators: For some reason I have no access to "Practicing physician" forum despite my updating my status as attending physician. Since the issue is also relevant to residents and to all specialities, I felt appropriate to post it here.

Currently I am working at a large non-profit Christian hospital group. After my first 6 months, I was given a collection of complaints about me written up by all kinds of people but mostly from RNs and physicians. All were trivial issues easily explained away. It is very odd why these people could not address the issues to me directly and easily resolve any misunderstanding right away like adults. I would only report to a mediator (often supervisors) if I failed to resolve it with the person in question. Then I realized that everyone is doing this backhanded reporting here. I feel like by not doing the same I am at a disadvantage since many things would go unreported about others while I am getting these petty complaints. Then I felt how pathetic and childish this all is.

Before I bring this up to the CEO and CMO of this place, I wanted to ask you what your views are on this. If this is happening even in this supposedly a religiously oriented hospital, I wonder if this is happening in ALL hospitals? If so, why has this become an accepted system?

I think this back reporting without the knowledge of the person involved goes on even in residencies. This system makes one feel shocked, back stabbed and betrayed and clearly engenders a police state like atmosphere where everyone is reporting everyone else in vengeance. I do not understand why hospitals do not create a system where two parties are encouraged to resolve the issue directly in person, and to involve the supervisors when such attempt fails. My experience is that this direct resolution actually promotes healthy camaraderie and positive feelings in improving imperfections.

Don't understand why problems aren't resolved directly without administration involvement? You answered your own question. Those clipboard toting administrators employment depends on these types of issues. They need to fix stuff. You are providing the problems for them to fix.

I've witnessed administrators from different departments be nearly 100% inflexible with policy and procedures for various things. Who gets put in the middle? Not the administrators. Then it becomes more about ego instead of getting things done efficiently and correctly.

 

[DermADVISOR]

This is why it pays to be a teacher's pet, a brown noser, research junkie, etc. Because ultimately they can and do fire MD's for no other reason than simply wanting to get rid of them and conveniently retrospectively characterize (or re-characterize, whatever is easier for HR) the basis for termination as some sort of "professionalism issue," provided the appropriate paper trail exists. Sure takes the arbitrary and capricious out of the picture if they can establish a documented pattern of behavior, whatever that may be given the whims of those in power on that particular day or week.

Some hospital contracts have a "no cause" line, meaning they can fire you and not have to reveal why.

 

[DermADVISOR]

I think you're missing the point. The idea is to prevent the unlawful termination (or adverse action, etc.) in the first place, which is orders of magnitude easier than being re-instated after an unlawful termination.

A paper trail can be created to support just about anything a hospital wants to do (I'm sure you're aware). The longer you wait, the more substantial that paper trail becomes and therefore diffucult to refute no matter how inconsistent with reality.

Even that poor resident starts to believe they have a professionalism issue after a while...because the evaluations say so.

Couldn't agree with the paper trail part any more. I held a non-medical job once where my complaints about inappropriate conduct were ignored or not believed. I was advised by a colleague to keep a journal with date and time of events and I did for two months, along with documentation. I made copies of all the entries and supporting documentation. Guess what? The problem was dealt with in less than a week.

 

[DermADVISOR]

a lawyer can be of enormous value when you are losing your job, just maybe not to keep the job

you might even get enough from the hospital to not only make the attorney free, but bring you back in the black along with all the other non-monetary benefits you might get

Your employer may never know you had a lawyer, just their advice could get you through. Going into HR and asking the right questions and requesting the correct documentation can go along way to show you're not oblivious to the process.

A lawyer can't help with the "no cause" part, so most hospitals can get rid of you anyway.

 

[PlutoBoy]

Multiple accounts and using them to troll and sock puppet, misrepresentation of status/identity as well as being a formerly banned user are all good reasons. The trouble with deceit and lying is that eventually you trip up and/or it catches up to you.

I repeat: some people have way too much time on their hands.

Sock puppets to try to win an internet argument with strangers? Nice.

 

[PlutoBoy]

It's ok. I have it from a good source he's already hired a lawyer that's going to get his account reinstated.

He hired @Law2Doc. Lee is trembling. Light will be back before you know it.

 

[Crayola227]

Your employer may never know you had a lawyer, just their advice could get you through. Going into HR and asking the right questions and requesting the correct documentation can go along way to show you're not oblivious to the process.

A lawyer can't help with the "no cause" part, so most hospitals can get rid of you anyway.

I forgot to add of course, that what value an attorney can bring is of course dependent on whether or not you have any sort of case to make about your termination being unfair. That will of course depend on circumstances and *greatly* how well you document things.