Back to basics WW again

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kcoughli said:
Ooh so you're thinking that raf was defending a sketchy-villager intentionally. I honestly hadn't considered that... but still seems like a weird move.
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Yes. It's on my list of things to do as a wolf, so I imagine it is on others' as well.

I can see what people are saying about her thinking of Abs being helpful in wolf chat and blah blah. But defending fellow wolves is a dangerous business, and unless the wolf pack is completely new wolves, someone would have mentioned to her that it's a good idea not to associate yourself too closely with your packmates.

The idea that Abs is a wolf does kind of amuse me though, because if I were a wolf in her shoes I would have been furious at raf for that post 😀
 
WildZoo said:
Yes. It's on my list of things to do as a wolf, so I imagine it is on others' as well.
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That's why I'm a crappy wolf - I don't strategize it well. My approach to wolfing is to ignore the wolf chat as much as possible, forget that I'm a wolf, and just play the game straight up.

I once went after a wolf forgetting that both of us were wolves, just because I got suspicious.

Sometimes memory loss is your best friend.
 
WildZoo said:
Yes. It's on my list of things to do as a wolf, so I imagine it is on others' as well.

I can see what people are saying about her thinking of Abs being helpful in wolf chat and blah blah. But defending fellow wolves is a dangerous business, and unless the wolf pack is completely new wolves, someone would have mentioned to her that it's a good idea not to associate yourself too closely with your packmates.

The idea that Abs is a wolf does kind of amuse me though, because if I were a wolf in her shoes I would have been furious at raf for that post 😀
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See and this exact thought is what I was thinking when I was reading her responses to people calling out raf's weird comment. She shut raf down, tried to pull back attention off herself and deflect it back to raf, and then voting to lynch her. Almost feels retaliatory, but not quite to that level. Possible I'm reading too much into it. I tunnel sometimes which can be either good or bad. But now to analyze Zen and Jil...
 
Also, Zen mentioned something earlier that I would go back and quote, but I have homework I really should get to, but anyway, she said she was quiet this weekend because she thought STL was the cop and maybe got D1 info about me and she didn't want to draw attention to him. This doesn't make sense to me because he was happy to draw attention to himself, so why would she be worried about it? Just seems like a super weird comment to me.
 
Stl, adamant that jil is a wolf when many others are sorta ****ting on the idea... and then she ends up dead overnight. Combine that with him being adamant that a day vig is a bizarre role to have in this game and I would have thought him responsible. I could very easily see him not doing the kill simply to save his skin.

I know I was pretty surprised to see him dead this morning. Zen's theory being applied with her as a wolf should explain it, which is why I'm staying on her lynch despite Jil bring sketchy af.
 
kcoughli said:
See and this exact thought is what I was thinking when I was reading her responses to people calling out raf's weird comment. She shut raf down, tried to pull back attention off herself and deflect it back to raf, and then voting to lynch her. Almost feels retaliatory, but not quite to that level. Possible I'm reading too much into it. I tunnel sometimes which can be either good or bad. But now to analyze Zen and Jil...
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Well, it <is> interesting that that's when she suddenly decided to move away from fluff posts. I still have trouble picturing her hard-busing another wolf early in the game, but ... you might have a point.
 
LetItSnow said:
That's why I'm a crappy wolf - I don't strategize it well. My approach to wolfing is to ignore the wolf chat as much as possible, forget that I'm a wolf, and just play the game straight up.

I once went after a wolf forgetting that both of us were wolves, just because I got suspicious.

Sometimes memory loss is your best friend.
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It's just something I keep in the back of my head as something that I know I do when I'm a villager. Most of the time I try to just look at and respond to any situation as villager me would, but if I'm giving advice to a new wolf, especially if they're also fairly new to playing WW, "just play like you would as a villager" isn't too helpful. I'd have to go back and look but I'm almost certain I included something along those lines when I was mentoring the wolves in the recent noob game.

All that to say that was just what popped into my head when I was rereading raf's post, and I just don't see her making a post like that about a fellow wolf on day 2 after they had a chance to talk. Would be different if it had happened day 1.
 
Trilt said:
Stl, adamant that jil is a wolf when many others are sorta ****ting on the idea... and then she ends up dead overnight. Combine that with him being adamant that a day vig is a bizarre role to have in this game and I would have thought him responsible. I could very easily see him not doing the kill simply to save his skin.

I know I was pretty surprised to see him dead this morning. Zen's theory being applied with her as a wolf should explain it, which is why I'm staying on her lynch despite Jil bring sketchy af.
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I honestly think stl might be dead because he was barking up the right tree. I think I'm probably going to vote jil since she has been on my radar for a couple days but I'll have to go back to see who else he was talking about.

I think this is because (post giving you some insight into my thought process) I have been known to all caps THIS PERSON HAS TO GO when playing a wolf in the past when they are making me nervous.
 
kcoughli said:
See and this exact thought is what I was thinking when I was reading her responses to people calling out raf's weird comment. She shut raf down, tried to pull back attention off herself and deflect it back to raf, and then voting to lynch her. Almost feels retaliatory, but not quite to that level. Possible I'm reading too much into it. I tunnel sometimes which can be either good or bad. But now to analyze Zen and Jil...
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I could see it. But I get weird as a villager if I feel like someone is defending me for no reason (I think I mentioned that when she reacted to raf's post). It feels like either they know more than they should or they're trying to pocket you.
 
LetItSnow said:
Well, it <is> interesting that that's when she suddenly decided to move away from fluff posts. I still have trouble picturing her hard-busing another wolf early in the game, but ... you might have a point.
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You asked me a pointed question! AMF everyone was bellyaching about it. So I'm trying to be supes srs. Well. Mini srs.
 
Zensing said:
Well, now I feel stupid for trusting STL. He was so certain about Jil that I figured he had evidence that she was a wolf 🙁.

Guess I'll spend today reviewing her comments without STL bias in mind.
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Zensing said:
These games seem to be using Mafia Universe versions of roles instead of our traditional ones. I haven't found the threads back on Mafia Wiki, but I thought I remembered that in the 2015 championship game (DocE's game) the cop gets a Day 0 alignment read of someone of their choice (referred to as Cop Head Start.

STL was pushing Jilary so strongly as a wolf, and refusing to explain his tell for so long, that it made more sense to me that he had evidence that she was a wolf and was making up a tell than that he'd push an unknown player that strongly on day 1 or day 2. Evidence could be the cop head start, or that he was a wolf looking to bus a member. I'd read through Jilary's posts and couldn't figure out the tell, but I also didn't see a lot that pointed me towards villageriness. I was wiling to lynch Jilary to figure out STL's accuracy.

I came to the conclusion that STL was probably cop or wolf on Sunday. This is why I stayed quiet - I didn't want to attract wolf attention on him if he was potentially the cop. Better to stay quiet and avoid attracting wolf notice to STL while still putting my vote towards Jilary's lynch. Unfortunately, that also means I didn't contribute much last day cycle.

I'm sorry for getting engrossed with my cop theory. With STL's death, I see that both the cop and wolf theories were wrong, anyway. He didn't have evidence on Jilary and was probably posting on feels. His death forces me to redo my analysis on Jilary - there were several people questioning who he voted for last night, so why did the wolves decide to kill him instead of work to get him lynched? I'm guessing it was to frame or exonerate Jilary, but I'm not sure which one.

As for posting - I realize that real life doesn't matter here, but I have two exams and a live animal surgery this week. I will post as I can.
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Okay so... yeah. Who likes to meta? Because this theory is super intense and well-researched and far beyond my level of commitment to the game (usually). Does anyone know if this is something Zen tends to do?

I'll admit I didn't think her first post was that sketchy, if she was thinking STL was the seer who looked into Jil N1, which is how I originally interpreted it. Then of course people jumped in and mentioned that it was D1 that STL started the Jil bandwagon, which is when Zen came out with this theory. Seems elaborate, not something she probably came up with today as a last minute defense of a sketchy post, but still doesn't really tell me anything. Except why would she post a sketchy thing about it at all if she were a wolf? Just brings attention to herself.

She's also only posted 3 times today which, if she is leading the vote (anyone have an updated tally?), is a bit worrisome. She could just not have checked in since she started leading the vote or she could be laying low as a wolf hoping it blows over. All in all, I'd be okay voting this way today. Going to look at some Jil stuff now.
 
kcoughli said:
Okay so... yeah. Who likes to meta? Because this theory is super intense and well-researched and far beyond my level of commitment to the game (usually). Does anyone know if this is something Zen tends to do?

I'll admit I didn't think her first post was that sketchy, if she was thinking STL was the seer who looked into Jil N1, which is how I originally interpreted it. Then of course people jumped in and mentioned that it was D1 that STL started the Jil bandwagon, which is when Zen came out with this theory. Seems elaborate, not something she probably came up with today as a last minute defense of a sketchy post, but still doesn't really tell me anything. Except why would she post a sketchy thing about it at all if she were a wolf? Just brings attention to herself.

She's also only posted 3 times today which, if she is leading the vote (anyone have an updated tally?), is a bit worrisome. She could just not have checked in since she started leading the vote or she could be laying low as a wolf hoping it blows over. All in all, I'd be okay voting this way today. Going to look at some Jil stuff now.
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It doesn't seem like an odd post at all coming from Zen.
And doesn't necessarily need to be well-researched if you have some prior background with games on other forums. Day 0 (though I would actually think of it as night 0) peeks aren't uncommon other places, they just pretty much never happen here.

I don't think the theory itself says anything either way for her.
 
kcoughli said:
She's also only posted 3 times today which, if she is leading the vote (anyone have an updated tally?), is a bit worrisome.
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No it isn't. That's her problem, not our problem.

I know a lot of you are all like "oh no, we shouldn't lynch them! they haven't had time to defend!"

Screw that. Especially in this long-ass day-cycle game. Nobody should get out of a lynch vote with silence.
 
And btw, I'm not being hypocritical. Had y'all lynched me on D1 when I wasn't even playing yet, sure, I would have been PO'd as a village player. But not because you lynched me when I was silent.

Never fall for that sucker move. I can't even count how many times I've gotten away with it. Don't let me or anyone get away with it again. 🙂
 
PippyPony said:
Mechanics question: what happens in these long cycles when a lynch vote closes early? Does night kick in? Or does it stay daytime for the set number of hours?

Sent from my Nexus 5X using SDN mobile
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Usually night kicks in, the cycles get all off schedule, things get confusing, and everyone cries
 
Trilt said:
Stl, adamant that jil is a wolf when many others are sorta ****ting on the idea... and then she ends up dead overnight. Combine that with him being adamant that a day vig is a bizarre role to have in this game and I would have thought him responsible. I could very easily see him not doing the kill simply to save his skin.
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I mean, I would have just assumed he either was the night vig or managed to convince the night vig through his posts that Jil needed to go.

Trilt said:
I know I was pretty surprised to see him dead this morning. Zen's theory being applied with her as a wolf should explain it, which is why I'm staying on her lynch despite Jil bring sketchy af.
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Zen's theory being applied with who her being a wolf? Jil a wolf or Zen a wolf? Or both a wolfs? I think I missed a logic step in here.
 
Still reading through yesterday (this is why multitasking is bad) but I definitely get the feeling that the Jil, Abney, and Zen eggs will all need to be cracked at some point, whether through info of some kind or through lynching. All situations where I can see us going in circles about them for days otherwise.
 
LetItSnow said:
And btw, I'm not being hypocritical. Had y'all lynched me on D1 when I wasn't even playing yet, sure, I would have been PO'd as a village player. But not because you lynched me when I was silent.

Never fall for that sucker move. I can't even count how many times I've gotten away with it. Don't let me or anyone get away with it again. 🙂
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Hah I meant worrisome in the sense that she could be a wolf laying low. I guess I should have said sketchy?
 
LetItSnow said:
And btw, I'm not being hypocritical. Had y'all lynched me on D1 when I wasn't even playing yet, sure, I would have been PO'd as a village player. But not because you lynched me when I was silent.

Never fall for that sucker move. I can't even count how many times I've gotten away with it. Don't let me or anyone get away with it again. 🙂
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I ****ing read that as hypo-critical. As in... decreased criticalness. ****ing vet med taking over every facet of my life
 
kcoughli said:
Okay so... yeah. Who likes to meta? Because this theory is super intense and well-researched and far beyond my level of commitment to the game (usually). Does anyone know if this is something Zen tends to do?

I'll admit I didn't think her first post was that sketchy, if she was thinking STL was the seer who looked into Jil N1, which is how I originally interpreted it. Then of course people jumped in and mentioned that it was D1 that STL started the Jil bandwagon, which is when Zen came out with this theory. Seems elaborate, not something she probably came up with today as a last minute defense of a sketchy post, but still doesn't really tell me anything. Except why would she post a sketchy thing about it at all if she were a wolf? Just brings attention to herself.

She's also only posted 3 times today which, if she is leading the vote (anyone have an updated tally?), is a bit worrisome. She could just not have checked in since she started leading the vote or she could be laying low as a wolf hoping it blows over. All in all, I'd be okay voting this way today. Going to look at some Jil stuff now.
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I mean she had to explain why she thought STL knew something re:Jil d1 because I pushed her on it.

Here's why I'm pushing the Zen vote. If she *is* a wolf, then we know the wolves considered Jilary dead meat. Anyone voting for her early goes from slightly cleared to slightly suspicious because we know they'd be down with bussing them hard. I'd immediately lynch Jil and question WZ hard if so.

If she's village, back at square one. Kill Jil tomorrow and see results.
kcoughli said:
I mean, I would have just assumed he either was the night vig or managed to convince the night vig through his posts that Jil needed to go.


Zen's theory being applied with who her being a wolf? Jil a wolf or Zen a wolf? Or both a wolfs? I think I missed a logic step in here.
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See above.
 
Trilt said:
I'd immediately lynch Jil and question WZ hard if so.
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Hay. I didn't vote for Jil until late d1 after cdo revealed. I'm following your theory but I wasn't an early Jil voter. Unless you're talking about d2, but that was like, carryover from d1 anyway.
 
Trilt said:
I mean she had to explain why she thought STL knew something re:Jil d1 because I pushed her on it.

Here's why I'm pushing the Zen vote. If she *is* a wolf, then we know the wolves considered Jilary dead meat. Anyone voting for her early goes from slightly cleared to slightly suspicious because we know they'd be down with bussing them hard. I'd immediately lynch Jil and question WZ hard if so.

If she's village, back at square one. Kill Jil tomorrow and see results.

See above.
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I admit I had to read through this like 3 times to make the she's and her's line up with who you meant for them to be, but I finally got it. My brain is a bit mushy today.
 
WildZoo said:
Hay. I didn't vote for Jil until late d1 after cdo revealed. I'm following your theory but I wasn't an early Jil voter. Unless you're talking about d2, but that was like, carryover from d1 anyway.
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I think she meant early votes today if wolves are bussing one of their own (Jil). Correct me if I'm wrong Trilt.
 
WildZoo said:
Hay. I didn't vote for Jil until late d1 after cdo revealed. I'm following your theory but I wasn't an early Jil voter. Unless you're talking about d2, but that was like, carryover from d1 anyway.
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Honestly didn't look back at d1 so sounds reasonable to me. Not trying to get ahead of myself just trying to explain my thought process. 😛
 
kcoughli said:
I think she meant early votes today if wolves are bussing one of their own (Jil). Correct me if I'm wrong Trilt.
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Don't think so, because I haven't even voted today. At least I don't think I have. I intentionally was holding off until I could get my thoughts organized.
 
Hmm.. Long day at school, gonna read through the last 4 pages in more detail and post any comments. Sounds like we are still on Zen and Jil lynches. Which is good. I have feels both are wolves.
 
kcoughli said:
I think she meant early votes today if wolves are bussing one of their own (Jil). Correct me if I'm wrong Trilt.
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Meant the last day cycle, but don't get too bent out of shape about it... need to know the results on Zen before it's worth anything. If she's village all for naught anyway.
 
So here's where I'm at:

Village reads on Trilt (sorry trilt), LIS, Dr. S, Otter, and Snow. Slight village for...probably too many people. I can never read Finn or DVMD so I'll leave that to others for now. Tiny suspicions for pippy, 3m, and confusing. Zen and coopah are my top suspects. I've already stated my feelings on Jil and Abs, but I'm not going to push too hard for them not to be lynched.

I've still got more reading to do but I'm getting tired and so my mind is wandering.
 
WildZoo said:
So here's where I'm at:

Village reads on Trilt (sorry trilt), LIS, Dr. S, Otter, and Snow. Slight village for...probably too many people. I can never read Finn or DVMD so I'll leave that to others for now. Tiny suspicions for pippy, 3m, and confusing. Zen and coopah are my top suspects. I've already stated my feelings on Jil and Abs, but I'm not going to push too hard for them not to be lynched.

I've still got more reading to do but I'm getting tired and so my mind is wandering.
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Well, let me know if I can do anything to assuage your fears, but for now I'm ok with not being at the top of the lynch candidate. When people are all over me again, I will happily answer any questions they have. To clarify, if you have questions, I'm happy to answer them to the best of my ability.
 
Coopah said:
Well, let me know if I can do anything to assuage your fears, but for now I'm ok with not being at the top of the lynch candidate. When people are all over me again, I will happily answer any questions they have. To clarify, if you have questions, I'm happy to answer them to the best of my ability.
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I was getting around to being more specific. I know it's frustrating (whether you're wolf or villager) to have your name thrown around without explanation.

So anyway, I've raised my eyebrows quite a few times at your posts. Hard to put my finger on it, but just reading through there were some raised hairs. Even this post that I'm responding to made me go "Uh..." That's pretty damn flimsy, I know, and it could just be your posting style throws me off for some reason. I'll go back and find specific posts in a bit.

The other thing was your late switch to cdo post-role reveal. I think there was probably a wolf or two on that lynch, and you pushing the lynch toward cdo, but at the same time adding on the plausible deniability that you were just following STL...set off a little alarm bell for me.

So there is that and then there is the fact that I don't have any checks in the village column for you, so it nets sketchy.
 
LetItSnow said:
Hey wolves, Trilt is a villager.

(I am so gonna die laughing if Trilt has totally played me this game .... If so, HT.)
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The last time I played a basics game, the last two wolves were the two at the top of my village list. So I'm fully expecting you and Trilt to both be wolves this time :heckyeah:
 
WildZoo said:
Still reading through yesterday (this is why multitasking is bad) but I definitely get the feeling that the Jil, Abney, and Zen eggs will all need to be cracked at some point, whether through info of some kind or through lynching. All situations where I can see us going in circles about them for days otherwise.
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I'd be shocked if I hadn't been checked out by every method possible at this point.

Trilt said:
I mean she had to explain why she thought STL knew something re:Jil d1 because I pushed her on it.

Here's why I'm pushing the Zen vote. If she *is* a wolf, then we know the wolves considered Jilary dead meat. Anyone voting for her early goes from slightly cleared to slightly suspicious because we know they'd be down with bussing them hard. I'd immediately lynch Jil and question WZ hard if so.

If she's village, back at square one. Kill Jil tomorrow and see results.

See above.
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So basically you want to lynch me tomorrow no matter what?

Someone said earlier that I didn't "defend my play" yesterday. It was D2, not much play I could defend, but I re-explained my vote for ski, and I still stand by it and I still think she's sketch, so yes, I did defend my play. Oh, and several other people are now saying she's sketch too, so maybe I was on to something. I voted for raf yesterday when I was at 5 and my vote pushed her to 4, so no need to defend that play, I voted for the person I found most sketchy and we got a wolf.

I admit I come up with some crazy theories when I'm constantly under risk of being lynched (which I'm on D3 of now), so yeah, maybe my theories are crazy, but there have been a few times where veterans have flat out told me my theories were crazy and stupid, and lo and behold, I was right, so I'd rather post my crazy stupid idea and me wrong, then keep it to myself and maybe be at least partially right.
 
wp31e6f693.gif
 
WildZoo said:
I was getting around to being more specific. I know it's frustrating (whether you're wolf or villager) to have your name thrown around without explanation.

So anyway, I've raised my eyebrows quite a few times at your posts. Hard to put my finger on it, but just reading through there were some raised hairs. Even this post that I'm responding to made me go "Uh..." That's pretty damn flimsy, I know, and it could just be your posting style throws me off for some reason. I'll go back and find specific posts in a bit.

The other thing was your late switch to cdo post-role reveal. I think there was probably a wolf or two on that lynch, and you pushing the lynch toward cdo, but at the same time adding on the plausible deniability that you were just following STL...set off a little alarm bell for me.

So there is that and then there is the fact that I don't have any checks in the village column for you, so it nets sketchy.
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I get that, especially the cdo lynch. I did that out of pure self preservation, as I have previously explained. If I had not followed STL, it would have been a tie lynch, with me as one of the ties. So seeing as I didn't want to die, I went with the only info I had which was cdo's role reveal. Nobody said anything until after that the role she said appeared in a previous game, so I assumed she made a mistake. I didn't really feel it, but it was better than going off no information whatsoever and potentially me dying.
 
WildZoo said:
Still reading through yesterday (this is why multitasking is bad) but I definitely get the feeling that the Jil, Abney, and Zen eggs will all need to be cracked at some point, whether through info of some kind or through lynching. All situations where I can see us going in circles about them for days otherwise.
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I kind of wasn't kidding when I said earlier that if I'm too much of a distraction (then I was also being an ass about my kidding and stuff) them go ahead and lynch me. I'm no great boon to villagers except a +1 and a vote for who I think is a wolf. Seriously. Then you can get on with your hunting.


And I'm sure. Something will get read into this. I mean. Honestly I might too if I wasn't the one writing it. :laugh:
 
I'm going to

****************
Lynch Jil
*****************

I've just been squiggy about her for a bit now and I just feel like... she's reaching. And I was waiting for her to respond but the length of time (yeah yeah real lives) made me think she's trying to figure out her spin.
 
Abnerrs said:
I'm going to

****************
Lynch Jil
*****************

I've just been squiggy about her for a bit now and I just feel like... she's reaching. And I was waiting for her to respond but the length of time (yeah yeah real lives) made me think she's trying to figure out her spin.
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Poop I hit enter like an idiot

********lynch Jil**********
 
Imma gonna

Lynch Zen

For not defending even though she had opportunity to, making me more suspicious than I already was. And generally being sketch.
 
Jilary said:
Sorry guys, I've had an absolute crap day. I've been skimming to keep up when I can, but haven't had time to make a coherent post especially in light of the events of last night. I felt good about the raf vote and I'm glad that netted us a wolf.

Initially I was surprised that STL hadn't tried to kill me when I saw he was the serial killer, since he seemed so convinced I was a wolf, but it's starting to make sense. There was no "tell", he was just trying to out those with roles because he didn't want them around any more than the wolves did. That's also why he switched off me d1, he didn't really want me to be lynched, he wanted me to live through the night so he could look for evidence of someone feeling strongly that I was a villager, revealing they were the seer (less so tracker). Thankfully that plan didn't work as he either didn't ID anyone with a role, or if he did he decided to wait to kill them and now he can't 😀. I can't say I noticed anyone saying anything roley, but I'm also not villager hunting, so those details may not stick out as much to me unless they are super obvious. I'm not sure I understand his kill of Ny, assuming that was him, which I think is quite likely. I would have thought if he was trying to play for the village he'd have gone after someone that people voiced suspicion of, and I had Ny leaning village, and don't recall her being someone people were suspicious of. I don't agree with Trilt that it was somewhat of a "good" thing, good would have been taking out a wolf or someone sketchy, which to me solidifies he was not out to help the village. When he revealed my "tell" yesterday, I really just thought he was being a stubborn idiot, and thought he was less likely sketchy, I was apparently wrong about that.

Ok, now I must go feed myself and my fur-kids. This post is way longer than I intended to post from my phone, so sorry if it's all over the place.
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It took me an embarrassingly long time to realize she wasn't implying she was the seer, lol. Hardore anatomy review session brain drain at its finest.
 
Trilt said:
I mean she had to explain why she thought STL knew something re:Jil d1 because I pushed her on it.

Here's why I'm pushing the Zen vote. If she *is* a wolf, then we know the wolves considered Jilary dead meat. Anyone voting for her early goes from slightly cleared to slightly suspicious because we know they'd be down with bussing them hard. I'd immediately lynch Jil and question WZ hard if so.

If she's village, back at square one. Kill Jil tomorrow and see results.

See above.
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I have to admit, this almost has me convinced to go after zen.

Coopah said:
I get that, especially the cdo lynch. I did that out of pure self preservation, as I have previously explained. If I had not followed STL, it would have been a tie lynch, with me as one of the ties. So seeing as I didn't want to die, I went with the only info I had which was cdo's role reveal. Nobody said anything until after that the role she said appeared in a previous game, so I assumed she made a mistake. I didn't really feel it, but it was better than going off no information whatsoever and potentially me dying.
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And this is probably why I'm still leaning toward jilary. I just don't understand raf's vote for cyndia when the vote was so close. It would have been easy to try to throw a vote for self preservation unless raf knew something about jilary, I think. Both have some interesting theories though. Zen's really came out of left field to me.
 
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GGoats ThWWee: Here It GGoats Again - GAME THREAD
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