Everyday I sit in class and I can't help and see the wheels spinning on the gunners who live to one-up their classmates each day. I decided to make an account and ask this because its been on my mind. I intend on specializing and I am somewhat certain I am in the top 20%. I overheard some of my classmates talking about how they are shooting for top 5 spots in the class to specialize. My question is is it really that necessary? I can't help but think if I am supposed to be more like them since I consider myself to be a social and helpful classmate sharing what materials I have and still able to study and hold my own. I guess I want to know if I am somewhat "safe" at the top 20% or if I should in fact be gunning as well for the top 5. I feel like residencies like oral surgery don't care too much in the differences between being ranked #1 or being ranked #10 but I might be completely wrong. Maybe above that they might categorize you into a into a different preference tier. The last thing I would want is to be content with where I am at and not get into a residency when applying comes. I would love to hear some feedback and advice from those who have had similar experiences or are current residents. I am not set but I am flirting around the idea for oral surgery. Thank you.
Be straight: Specializing and Gunners
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Just do your own thing and be the best at it. As simple as it sounds, that's all there is to it.
Gunner, slacker, social, introvert...labels are for people who feel the need to be seen a certain way by others. Forget about everyone else, live your own life, and just be yourself.
As for grades, just try your best. Unless you're asking advice for whether you should start sabotaging people, to which the answer is obviously no.
Gunner, slacker, social, introvert...labels are for people who feel the need to be seen a certain way by others. Forget about everyone else, live your own life, and just be yourself.
As for grades, just try your best. Unless you're asking advice for whether you should start sabotaging people, to which the answer is obviously no.
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I don't think grades are as important for oral surgery. Don't get me wrong, a higher rank will always give you a better shot, but I think if you are top 20% you should be fine. From what I have heard, OMFS programs put more weight on the CBSE exam. So if you are top 25%, have a solid score on the CBSE, and have good EC's/research then you should have a pretty good shot at matching somewhere.
Thank you for your replies. What is usually considered a good CBSE score? I've heard of upperclassman who ranked high in their class and had decent CBSE scores and didn't match. Thats not common is it? I figured if you get interviews and don't match its usually because they didn't feel like your personality fit their program or you just did something stupid/arrogant. Also how many interviews is usually thought to give you a good chance of matching??
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Statistically you need 7-8 interviews to have approximately a 90% chance of matching. However, I have seen some match with only one interview (and it was to a very good program) and others not match with 15 interviews.
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There's s long track record of posts on this forum where people who apply list how many programs they applied/interviewed at and their result. I believe someone compiled an analysis. You can also do it by comparing total number of interviews to number of available spots
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Hi there Dentaldex,
I want to help you out. Let me provide you with perspective.
Stop looking at other people. You are either one who will do well, or one who won't. Just because you do well, does not mean you are a gunner. If you are someone who needs to kick others down to do well, then perhaps those are the gunners.
This field began with competition, you needed a certain GPA to get into dental school. Now once in dental school, you need high achievement in order to get into some of the more competitive specialties.
If you overheard people talking about shooting for the top 5 spots and want to specialize, that shouldn't affect how you think.
This is my advice to you.
You should aim to be the best YOU can be. That being said, you should aim to be the top of your class, and perhaps settle for being Rank #6. I don't think you should draw a line at 20% and be like, oh I read some posts where this guy who did OMFS was only in top 20% and he matched, so I am good. This is a bad mindset and the mindset is most important.
In orthodontics, majority of the people are near the top of the class, and if they werent, they were in a Pass/fail school that still required them to have good achievement (research, volunteering, win awards in their dental school, have good reference letters). This is the same with any specialty.
In terms of OMFS, the reason you see many who are matching that are not necessarily in the top of their class is because its a longer commitment, 4-6 years and there are a multitude of factors that are not quantifiable.
There are lots of programs who have an "intern" year, and that intern will have a year after dental school to learn the ropes and how things work, and its a much better to take that intern in their program, than someone who is top ranked and you put them high on the rank list based on the half day interview you have. 6 years is a long commitment. If you get one bad apple who can't work with the rest of the attendings, it does a HUGE disservice to the program and the rest of the residents. You will hear about people dropping out of OMFS programs after half a year, and this affects everyone. This is because as a first year OMFS, you will literally be doing everything. second and third year is medical shool. Then 4-6 is all omfs. If you have someone in your program that isn't up to par with everyoe, it affects the program, and it affects the other residents big time.
There are more people who are in the top5% that are successful in matching in omfs than those in top 20%. However, beyond the class rank, you need to have the personality. You have to be ready to do take a beating verbally, physically, from your attendings, patients, etc. You also need to be smart. If you can't learn something, your deficiency will quickly be exposed, and if you don't make up for it in residency, you will be eaten alive.
I hope this helps. I see you going down the road of those with a chip on your shoulder, get rid of that mindset and start doing well while you still can.
S
smellycarabelli69
I have to agree with damonselfligation. Just because people are in the top 5 or shooting for the top doesn't mean they are "gunners." It is quite aggravating when individuals such as OP who give 100%-150% effort and don't achieve high academic standing in their class. They then try and blame it on the fact that others who are successful and higher ranked are doing something shady or "gunning." Its a tough pill to swallow but maybe those who are in the top 5 or 10 are just more intelligent than you? I am sure your peers who are in the top 5/top 10 are sharing notes and helping out others just as much as you are OP. This type of mindset is poisonous. Instead of immediately thinking others are "gunning," try to do some self reflection. You state that you post this in order to find out whether or not "you should gun for the top 5." My question to you is, are you even sure you would be able to make it there? Trust me, nobody in your class is actively looking to sabotage anybody else's work.
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T
The OMFS
It's the self-satisfied, complacent students who throws the word "gunners" freely to refer to someone who is out performing them academically. This happened a lot at my dental school.
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Well, I do know of someone who bribed another student's NERB patient with more money the day of the exam...
@DamonSelfLigation Thank you for your honest and helpful comments. You answered everything perfectly.
@smellycarabelli69 lol at "I am sure your peers who are in the top 5/top 10 are sharing notes and helping out others just as much as you are". I don't know if you went to a pass/fail school but there will always be students withholding old exams and study materials with each other. Also you probably didn't notice because you upsettingly signed up for SDN to respond to this post but my main purpose was to ask how good was my standing and what can I improve. In your defense it was out of context and I left out specific things some top people have said and continue to say so I can see why you said certain things.
@The OMFS If I were complacent then I wouldn't be asking for help. You are awarded no points. In all seriousness I don't discredit people who do well because they put a lot of time into their grades. My definition was referring to people who withhold valuable materials that would help everyone and only hurt their rank. Thanks for your comment.
@smellycarabelli69 lol at "I am sure your peers who are in the top 5/top 10 are sharing notes and helping out others just as much as you are". I don't know if you went to a pass/fail school but there will always be students withholding old exams and study materials with each other. Also you probably didn't notice because you upsettingly signed up for SDN to respond to this post but my main purpose was to ask how good was my standing and what can I improve. In your defense it was out of context and I left out specific things some top people have said and continue to say so I can see why you said certain things.
@The OMFS If I were complacent then I wouldn't be asking for help. You are awarded no points. In all seriousness I don't discredit people who do well because they put a lot of time into their grades. My definition was referring to people who withhold valuable materials that would help everyone and only hurt their rank. Thanks for your comment.
S
smellycarabelli69
OP do you have any evidence of students withholding old exams and study materials/secret notes? Have you ever seen with your own two eyes or physically laid hands on these secret exams/notes? Or is this a figment of your imagination created by your inability to look internally when something doesn't go your way? It is always easier to blame others success and your failures academically on some imaginary set of secret notes with all the answers to the tests. Human nature makes accepting that you may have shortcomings a difficult pill to swallow. My advice to you is to not believe every rumor you hear. As an anecdote, when I was in dental school I used to hear these rumors about "secret notes" all the time but I have never seen one physically. But hypothetically, even if they do exist, a few secret back tests is not going to differentiate rank 30/40 from the top 10.
Actually yes I have seen them before and yes upperclassman will pass them down at the risk of getting themselves in trouble. I have passed up exam materials before only to find out from other classmates that they were word for word questions of the entire exam. Perhaps the fact that you do not think they exist implies that your classmates did not feel close enough with you to share. I agree some classes it may not make a difference but sometimes with a major 5+ credit class it does. Thanks for caring enough to reply again, I will study harder now.
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Hi there Dentaldex,
Any material that gets passed down is going to be inevitable. You should consider this your "cherry on top" if you get this material in addition to the cake (the studying you should have done anyway). These "cherry on top" only serves to help people pass, who would without it, fail.
You need to study smart, not hard. At the end of the day, the smart people will get a 92 with or without that passed down material, the passed down material will make them go from a 92 to a 95. Same difference.
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Gunners gonna gun. Get good grades and keep your head above water. Trying to figure out the post grad admissions process is like trying to pick lotto numbers. There is often no discernible rhyme or reason. I know.
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I, seriously, dislike people like you, OP. Very recently, I was told that I had the highest grade in the class because the teacher was into me. Than how come I still have the highest grade with my female teachers? People will make up any excuses for their shortcomings.
Don't hate the player... the game chose me.
Don't hate the player... the game chose me.
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Top 5 is definitely, definitely very different from top 15.
I'd say OMFS will definitely prefer to see top 5 students vs top 15, but also showing face in the department, being a good person, being friendly, etc, can help you just as much. I told by our program director that they like to see top %15 but if they know and like the student they'll make exceptions. I never questioned grades, wasn't a jerk, etc, and I think that helped me much more in the long run. Whether its the secretary who will squeeze a patient into the schedule or the cashier who will change some codes I forgot to charge out (without me needing 15 signatures on papers), being nice helps and gunners tend to be disliked by all. The same professors that gave me B's as a first year are the ones who are grading me in clinic/other classes and are much nicer as a result of having respect for me. If you're smart, then try, but don't throw anyone under the bus. Dental school is a bit of a 'play the game' kind of thing if you're specializing but there are too many exams/tests for you to do perfect on every single one without friends.
I'd say OMFS will definitely prefer to see top 5 students vs top 15, but also showing face in the department, being a good person, being friendly, etc, can help you just as much. I told by our program director that they like to see top %15 but if they know and like the student they'll make exceptions. I never questioned grades, wasn't a jerk, etc, and I think that helped me much more in the long run. Whether its the secretary who will squeeze a patient into the schedule or the cashier who will change some codes I forgot to charge out (without me needing 15 signatures on papers), being nice helps and gunners tend to be disliked by all. The same professors that gave me B's as a first year are the ones who are grading me in clinic/other classes and are much nicer as a result of having respect for me. If you're smart, then try, but don't throw anyone under the bus. Dental school is a bit of a 'play the game' kind of thing if you're specializing but there are too many exams/tests for you to do perfect on every single one without friends.
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So how you view things in dental school will be based on your perspective and your own experiences. This is why it is so hard to figure out what is actually the truth and why no one can ever agree on anything! This is true for politics or any topic that is controversial (i.e. Black Lives Matter, All Lives Matter, Government Handouts, Tax Policies, etc). Because no matter what, your perspective and personal experience bias your view, including mine.
I would like to provide you with my opinion on dental school as viewed from my perspective and experience. I am a top 5 student and it just turns out at my dental school, the top 5 students became really good friends. We studied together, we drank together, played intramurals together, etc and just overall became really good friends. The 5 of us wanted to either do Ortho or OMFS. I can tell you right now that none of us did anything secretive or tried to sabotage anyone. We just studied and worked hard in clinic. There were rumors that there were secret exams, people doing secretive things, etc. However, none of it was true and to this day we still try to figure out how these rumors start in the first place lol. And I liked what Damon said about the backexams. A top 5 student will get an A regardless if they had it or not because we would never rely on the chance that the professor changes the questions. All it takes is one slip to drop from the top 5 and a student that is meant to be in the top 5 will not risk that. To be in the top 5, all it takes is hard work and maybe some natural intelligence dictated by your genetics.
So this is where the perspective comes in. If you ask a top 5 student if they enjoyed dental school or whether they believe that a lot of unethical things were happening in dental school, their views would align with mine. But if you ask a student who had a more difficult time in dental school, they would say there are a bunch of secret exams or the top students are definitely are cheating somehow. So in my experience, the students who usually throw the word gunner around are the students like the OP who studied hard, want to specialize, but are unable to achieve the top rankings. There are also the students who really don't care, don't want to specialize, and honestly are very pleasant and happy people because they just don't care haha (these are not the people throwing the word gunner around).
I also wanted to address the part about accepting your own shortcomings. It is a very difficult to accept that when you fail, it is most likely your fault. And in the unlikely event that it isn't, you should still focus on the aspects you can control. I have failed to achieve my goals plenty of times (socially, academically, athletically) . Initially, it really, really hurts to find out you didn't achieve your goal. I immediately begin to blame anything I can but myself. This is really bad to do because you aren't focusing on the things you can control and improve. I have been lucky to have friends and family who have always been objective and slap me back into reality. They tell me what I need to hear not what I want to hear. The hardest thing to do is to realize the failure is because of your own shortcomings but once you do, you are on the path to improving yourself and ultimately success.
Whew that was long. Hope you guys find my perspective helpful.
I would like to provide you with my opinion on dental school as viewed from my perspective and experience. I am a top 5 student and it just turns out at my dental school, the top 5 students became really good friends. We studied together, we drank together, played intramurals together, etc and just overall became really good friends. The 5 of us wanted to either do Ortho or OMFS. I can tell you right now that none of us did anything secretive or tried to sabotage anyone. We just studied and worked hard in clinic. There were rumors that there were secret exams, people doing secretive things, etc. However, none of it was true and to this day we still try to figure out how these rumors start in the first place lol. And I liked what Damon said about the backexams. A top 5 student will get an A regardless if they had it or not because we would never rely on the chance that the professor changes the questions. All it takes is one slip to drop from the top 5 and a student that is meant to be in the top 5 will not risk that. To be in the top 5, all it takes is hard work and maybe some natural intelligence dictated by your genetics.
So this is where the perspective comes in. If you ask a top 5 student if they enjoyed dental school or whether they believe that a lot of unethical things were happening in dental school, their views would align with mine. But if you ask a student who had a more difficult time in dental school, they would say there are a bunch of secret exams or the top students are definitely are cheating somehow. So in my experience, the students who usually throw the word gunner around are the students like the OP who studied hard, want to specialize, but are unable to achieve the top rankings. There are also the students who really don't care, don't want to specialize, and honestly are very pleasant and happy people because they just don't care haha (these are not the people throwing the word gunner around).
I also wanted to address the part about accepting your own shortcomings. It is a very difficult to accept that when you fail, it is most likely your fault. And in the unlikely event that it isn't, you should still focus on the aspects you can control. I have failed to achieve my goals plenty of times (socially, academically, athletically) . Initially, it really, really hurts to find out you didn't achieve your goal. I immediately begin to blame anything I can but myself. This is really bad to do because you aren't focusing on the things you can control and improve. I have been lucky to have friends and family who have always been objective and slap me back into reality. They tell me what I need to hear not what I want to hear. The hardest thing to do is to realize the failure is because of your own shortcomings but once you do, you are on the path to improving yourself and ultimately success.
Whew that was long. Hope you guys find my perspective helpful.
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Keep in mind that you do not have to be a top 5 student to be admitted into an ortho or OMFS program. Plenty of these programs are populated by top 20% students and even lower. Once again, there is no sure fire formula.
The bottom line is hard workers can go very far, and succeed in dental school and business. I admit that I was a gunner in my class but I only focused on my own skills and potentials. I tried to keep myself motivated everyday at dental school and I still work with the same intensity in my own practice. It is not just dental school, and you will face it in real world as well. You still need to stay at top 20% of your profession to be successful. In this era you can't expect to be average or below average and be successful.
