Being content with being Average or below Average in med school

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Arkangeloid said:
Well, no, but I just figured that from your avatars, you had an appetite for the disgusting.
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Skull crushing is a whole different kind of gross
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Arkangeloid said:
Well, no, but I just figured that from your avatars, you had an appetite for the disgusting.
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Yeah, "gross and diseased kids" who have no choice in their skin conditions with the intent to treat and help them (none of which that I've shown have purulence or exudate, etc.) is equivalent to gratuitous violence of someone's head being crushed and blood splattering everywhere. How you can make such a false equivalency is beyond me.
 
DermViser said:
Yeah, "gross and diseased kids" who have no choice in their skin conditions with the intent to treat and help them (none of which that I've shown have purulence or exudate, etc.) is equivalent to gratuitous violence of someone's head being crushed and blood splattering everywhere. How you can make such a false equivalency is beyond me.
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Ok fine, you win.
 
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DermViser said:
Yeah, "gross and diseased kids" who have no choice in their skin conditions with the intent to treat and help them (none of which that I've shown have purulence or exudate, etc.) is equivalent to gratuitous violence of someone's head being crushed and blood splattering everywhere. How you can make such a false equivalency is beyond me.
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Gotta defend Ark, here. It wasn't just needless violence posted out of the blue. It went along with the reference that Touchpause made. He's a GOT fan and my mind immediately went to that scene as well. Probably should have warned sensitive folks.
 
xffan624 said:
Gotta defend Ark, here. It wasn't just needless violence posted out of the blue. It went along with the reference that Touchpause made. He's a GOT fan and my mind immediately went to that scene as well. Probably should have warned sensitive folks.
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Who said it was posted out of the blue?
 
Arkangeloid said:
I'll be reviewing the exam when they summon me to trial and decide my sentence.
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You know, I wonder how you post here so much, maybe you should study more. You are really good at hijacking threads tho,

I start thread, Ark makes some self loathing comment about how he's failing and how pathetic he is, other people come in to comfort Ark, he says borderline offensive stuff under the guise that the doesn't know any better to keep people interested i.e "bishes", FML comes in and starts talking about buying shoes, then the thread becomes the social thread, maybe Allo just needs a social thread as this one will probably get locked like the last because it is going off topic.
 
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EMDO2018 said:
You know, I wonder how you post here so much, maybe you should study more. You are really good at hijacking threads tho,

I start thread, Ark makes some self loathing comment about how he's failing and how pathetic he is, other people come in to comfort Ark, he says borderline offensive stuff under the guise that the doesn't know any better to keep people interested i.e "bishes", FML comes in and starts talking about buying shoes, then the thread becomes the social thread, maybe Allo just needs a social thread as this one will probably get locked like the last because it is going off topic.
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You aren't much different with your fatalistic attitude and huge chip on your shoulder.
 
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EMDO2018 said:
You know, I wonder how you post here so much, maybe you should study more. You are really good at hijacking threads tho,

I start thread, Ark makes some self loathing comment about how he's failing and how pathetic he is, other people come in to comfort Ark, he says borderline offensive stuff under the guise that the doesn't know any better to keep people interested i.e "bishes", FML comes in and starts talking about buying shoes, then the thread becomes the social thread, maybe Allo just needs a social thread as this one will probably get locked like the last because it is going off topic.
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Ergo: I am the social queen and wherever I go, funzies follow? K cool
 
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ACCORDING TO THE 2014 NRMP PROGRAM DIRECTORS' SURVEY 27% OF PDs CITE HONORS IN BASIC SCIENCES AS A FACTOR IN SELECTING APPLICANTS TO INTERVIEW AND 20% CITE THEM AS A FACTOR IN RANKING. SUCK IT.
 
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Serous Demilune said:
ACCORDING TO THE 2014 NRMP PROGRAM DIRECTORS' SURVEY 27% OF PDs CITE HONORS IN BASIC SCIENCES AS A FACTOR IN SELECTING APPLICANTS TO INTERVIEW AND 20% CITE THEM AS A FACTOR IN RANKING. SUCK IT.
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Not much of a factor though, wasn't it like 20th on the list of things they consider.
 
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Serous Demilune said:
ACCORDING TO THE 2014 NRMP PROGRAM DIRECTORS' SURVEY 27% OF PDs CITE HONORS IN BASIC SCIENCES AS A FACTOR IN SELECTING APPLICANTS TO INTERVIEW AND 20% CITE THEM AS A FACTOR IN RANKING. SUCK IT.
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Sigh...

Not to get back into this to much.

But at the same time...69% cite class rank as a factor in selecting applicants to interview and 57% for ranking...and 61%/45% cite AOA (*which is determined in large part by your preclinical grades).

Also...this is the same survey that cites the MSPE as like the third most important factor every year. So something about the wording/methodology of this survey has to be a bit off.
 
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southernIM said:
Sigh...

Also...this is the same survey that cites the MSPE as like the third most important factor every year. So something about the wording/methodology of this survey has to be a bit off.
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You don't agree with this?
 
DermViser said:
You don't agree with this?
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I don't think most PDs give a flying f*** about the MSPE. It gives so little supplemental information that you don't get from either grades/USMLE score report (which ERAS nicely compiles for you), or LORs.

And until a year ago when they moved the MSPE release date from Nov 1 to Oct 1, any PD who said they used the MSPE to help decide who to select for interviews was blatantly lying, since 90% of interview offers went out before the MSPE was ever released.

Edit: Unless, that is, the MSPE has something negative about the student that isn't revealed elsewhere. Professionalism concerns, etc. Which is why as I said I wonder about the methodology of how the survey is worded. Because for 95% of applicants the MSPE may be useless, but for the 5% where it turns up some dirt it may actually be crucial.
 
southernIM said:
I don't think most PDs give a flying f*** about the MSPE. It gives so little supplemental information that you don't get from either grades/USMLE score report (which ERAS nicely compiles for you), or LORs.

And until a year ago when they moved the MSPE release date from Nov 1 to Oct 1, any PD who said they used the MSPE to help decide who to select for interviews was blatantly lying, since 90% of interview offers went out before the MSPE was ever released.
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Yes, but for example, while many specialties may not look at the MSPE closely BEFORE granting an interview but that's bc they have to interview tons of people for their spots as they have quite a few PGY-1 spots to cover. That being said, program faculty do look at the MSPE when they actually interview in which they go through the MSPE to notice what your grades were in your clerkships. It's not uncommon for them to flip it right in front of you.

In fact in our IM program the faculty member interviewing has a card when they're interviewing you that says:

Name:
School:
Step Scores:
AOA: Yes or No
Class Rank: Code Word - what it means.
 
Does class rank really matter though? If you are a US MD with good steps, no AOA, bottom half, will you be able to match, im, psych, rads, anes, at a university program?
 
EMDO2018 said:
Does class rank really matter though? If you are a US MD with good steps, no AOA, bottom half, will you be able to match, im, psych, rads, anes, at a university program?
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That's an SDN paradox. On here, only the top 10% of every class is allowed to get good step scores.
 
Serous Demilune said:
That's an SDN paradox. On here, only the top 10% of every class is allowed to get good step scores.
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Quit being histrionic.

All people have said is that on the whole, it is more likely that a top 10% student will get a good step score than a lower ranked student. We are all aware of exceptions in both directions
 
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EMDO2018 said:
Does class rank really matter though? If you are a US MD with good steps, no AOA, bottom half, will you be able to match, im, psych, rads, anes, at a university program?
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Barring any other red flags yes, a decent US MD student should be able to match in any of those fields as long as they have a decent step score.

But what exactly are their match ambitions? Want to match Cali? Want to match to a "top" program? Just want to feel confident you'll match at your number one? Different ballgame
 
EMDO2018 said:
Does class rank really matter though? If you are a US MD with good steps, no AOA, bottom half, will you be able to match, im, psych, rads, anes, at a university program?
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What do you think class rank is based on? While yes, preclinical grades (if you don't attend a "true" P/F school) contributes, your clinical grades also contribute a huge proportion to that class rank. So of course, it's important. Even if you're in the bottom half - it depends if you're near the top of that bottom half or near the bottom of that bottom half.
 
However, hopefully class ranking is put into the context of the class you're a part of. There is a sizable difference between the average student at top schools and bottom ones (although superstars can be found in all of them).
 
TwinsFan said:
However, hopefully class ranking is put into the context of the class you're a part of. There is a sizable difference between the average student at top schools and bottom ones (although superstars can be found in all of them).
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Residency PDs don't have time to go that far in. Yes if you're an average student at Vanderbilt, the breadth of institutions you'll be able to match into will be much greater than an average student at Meharry.
 
Serous Demilune said:
That's an SDN paradox. On here, only the top 10% of every class is allowed to get good step scores.
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Quite the opposite . . . most SDNers have some flawed expectation that blowing off course work during the year and then knocking Step I out of the park is the rule, rather than the exception.
 
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The "whether it matters" discussion is something you have in fourth year when it's all said and done. At that point you're trying to focus on your strengths and hopefully you have some. For first and second years asking whether anything matters: yes. Yes it does.

There's a big difference between an ms4 asking if their 268 step 1 makes up for average preclinical grades and an ms1 asking if the crappy grades they are currently earning can be offset with a hypothetical 99th %ile step score.

Everything matters because below average student generally get below average boards and below average clinical grades. They have below average pubs and subpar letters. Above average students are the opposite. The superstars will have nearly perfect everything plus interesting backgrounds, stellar letters, and national level awards and distinctions. The attitudes that lead a student down one path or another will generally keep them there.

The prevailing myth that this or that doesn't matter comes from threads by upperclassmen who are stellar save for one thing. No single deficiency will totally sink an otherwise stellar applicant, but no isolated stellar score or grade will revive an otherwise crappy application. If you want to compete for the top programs, everything matters.
 
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GuyWhoDoesStuff said:
Quite the opposite . . . most SDNers have some flawed expectation that blowing off course work during the year and then knocking Step I out of the park is the rule, rather than the exception.
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Good point. I meant to bring this up as well.

The much more common SDN trope is the "Meh, I'm not worried about all that dumb minutia for my pre-clinical courses, I'm focusing on the High Yield information so I'll be ready for Step 1"
 
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Hmmm.... A bunch of people with excellent basic science grades are lining up to expound on how important preclinical grades are for the rest of your life as a doctor and human being. Anybody on here who succeeded with average preclinical grades? Or people who didn't succeed, and blame their problems on not working hard enough during preclinicals? I would love to hear from you. @mimelim Maybe you could shed some light on how you aren't an absolute **** human being even though you didn't honor every basic science class.
 
Serous Demilune said:
Hmmm.... A bunch of people with excellent basic science grades are lining up to expound on how important preclinical grades are for the rest of your life as a doctor and human being. Anybody on here who succeeded with average preclinical grades? Or people who didn't succeed, and blame their problems on not working hard enough during preclinicals? I would love to hear from you. @mimelim Maybe you could shed some light on how you aren't an absolute **** human being even though you didn't honor every basic science class.
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Are medical students this terrible at understanding and interpreting nuance in real life, or is it just on this board?

How you can read the preceding posts and come away with this perception is beyond me.
 
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Serous Demilune said:
Hmmm.... A bunch of people with excellent basic science grades are lining up to expound on how important preclinical grades are for the rest of your life as a doctor and human being. Anybody on here who succeeded with average preclinical grades? Or people who didn't succeed, and blame their problems on not working hard enough during preclinicals? I would love to hear from you. @mimelim Maybe you could shed some light on how you aren't an absolute **** human being even though you didn't honor every basic science class.
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Once again you prop up a straw man position that no one has even come close to saying...

For the record, I was an exceptionally average pre-clinical student - usually within a few points of the mean. Unfortunately, I had to work my ass off for those exceptionally average grades. I think the only pre-clinical course I honored was neuro if I remember correctly.
 
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southernIM said:
Once again you prop up a straw man position that no one has even come close to saying...

For the record, I was an exceptionally average pre-clinical student - usually within a few points of the mean. Unfortunately, I had to work my ass off for those exceptionally average grades. I think the only pre-clinical course I honored was neuro if I remember correctly.
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I am average, would you consider me for your team, I have a pretty solid upcoming sdn career. And I know how much foam an espresso takes.
 
operaman said:
Are medical students this terrible at understanding and interpreting nuance in real life, or is it just on this board?

How you can read the preceding posts and come away with this perception is beyond me.
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This is you:
"Everything matters because below average student generally get below average boards and below average clinical grades. They have below average pubs and subpar letters. Above average students are the opposite. The superstars will have nearly perfect everything plus interesting backgrounds, stellar letters, and national level awards and distinctions. The attitudes that lead a student down one path or another will generally keep them there."
You are wrong. I see the opposite all the time. I went to a CUNY for undergrad and now I go to a middle of the middle tier med school. With me in the exact same position are people (generally a couple of years older than me) from Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and MIT. They worked way harder than me in high school and college, and payed way WAY more for their education, and yet here we are. Most likely due to the MCAT, the great equalizer. So don't sit there and say that the bottom 50% preclinical students of every med school class is doomed to mediocrity, because that makes you a prick. Being average in the preclinical years will only hold you back if you let it. Sorry if you spent all that extra effort for such diminished returns, go cry about it somewhere else.
 
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southernIM said:
Once again you prop up a straw man position that no one has even come close to saying...

For the record, I was an exceptionally average pre-clinical student - usually within a few points of the mean. Unfortunately, I had to work my ass off for those exceptionally average grades. I think the only pre-clinical course I honored was neuro if I remember correctly.
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That was more in response to operaman's sweeping genralizations.
 
So getting back on topic here:

I'm getting a little down in school as well. I'm 3 exams in and I've already failed one of them. The others were meh at best (for some reason no class averages were posted???)

I'm trying to change up study habits and be more efficient, but I'm afraid it won't be long before I'm the one busting into threads and ending my posts with hashtags of "4thquartileforlife"
 
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Serous Demilune said:
This is you:
"Everything matters because below average student generally get below average boards and below average clinical grades. They have below average pubs and subpar letters. Above average students are the opposite. The superstars will have nearly perfect everything plus interesting backgrounds, stellar letters, and national level awards and distinctions. The attitudes that lead a student down one path or another will generally keep them there."
You are wrong. I see the opposite all the time. I went to a CUNY for undergrad and now I go to a middle of the middle tier med school. With me in the exact same position are people (generally a couple of years older than me) from Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and MIT. They worked way harder than me in high school and college, and payed way WAY more for their education, and yet here we are. Most likely due to the MCAT, the great equalizer. So don't sit there and say that the bottom 50% preclinical students of every med school class is doomed to mediocrity, because that makes you a prick. Being average in the preclinical years will only hold you back if you let it. Sorry if you spent all that extra effort for such diminished returns, go cry about it somewhere else.
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This is a classic example of why medical students generally struggled with the MCAT verbal and go on to struggle with Steps and shelves: they read into the passage things that aren't really there.

Half of me wants to re-explain the nuances of my point and the other more cynical half of me knows you won't understand that either. Whether it's a concrete vs formal operations thing or just pure IQ, some people just don't understand nuance. Let me see if I can make this easy for you:

MS1: "hey, I'm really sucking at these class exams. Does this s--t matter assuming I do well on Step 1?" Answer: yes. The parallel is a premed who says, "I'm really blowing it in orgo; does a 3.3 GPA really matter assuming I can get at least a 38 on the MCAT?" Do you see how ridiculous that sounds? The odds of this person blowing off their preclinical courses but magically scoring 250+ on step and honors the majority of their clerkships are pretty small. IT's all in the attitude.

Ms2: "hey, I had a rough year last year but I finally found my stride. Assuming I do well this year and have a good performance on Step 1, will my mediocre grades last year hurt me?" Answer: probably not, work harder this year, do well on step, etc. Can you pick up the difference in tone from this one vs the last?

Ms3: "hey, I really struggled during M1 and M2 but did well on Step 1 (250+). Will my preclinical grades hurt me?" Answer: Nope, not likely. BUT, you'll need to do well clinically and get good letters/pubs/etc for whatever you want to do.

Ms4: "okay guys, what are my chances. Average to below average preclinicals, but major comeback on step 1 (253). Mix of HP/H during Ms3 with Honors in medicine and surgery. Got a couple pubs and a first author case report submitted. Step 2 pending." Answer: chances are good for just about anything, get good letters, do well on Sub-I, etc.

No, the bottom 50% are not "doomed to mediocrity," but without a major change in attitude and approach, they will likely remain in their current quartiles. Can they distinguish themselves in other areas? Of course they can! Will the person whose response to difficulty with coursework is to blow off in favor of some extra passes through First Aid both do well on the boards AND magically do well clinically? Unlikely.

It's all in the attitude.
 
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Rough week, the abdomen has a lot of stuff in it, and I just got 60% on a quiz.
 
southernIM said:
Good point. I meant to bring this up as well.

The much more common SDN trope is the "Meh, I'm not worried about all that dumb minutia for my pre-clinical courses, I'm focusing on the High Yield information so I'll be ready for Step 1"
Click to expand...
 
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Serous Demilune said:
This is you:
"Everything matters because below average student generally get below average boards and below average clinical grades. They have below average pubs and subpar letters. Above average students are the opposite. The superstars will have nearly perfect everything plus interesting backgrounds, stellar letters, and national level awards and distinctions. The attitudes that lead a student down one path or another will generally keep them there."
You are wrong. I see the opposite all the time. I went to a CUNY for undergrad and now I go to a middle of the middle tier med school. With me in the exact same position are people (generally a couple of years older than me) from Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and MIT. They worked way harder than me in high school and college, and payed way WAY more for their education, and yet here we are. Most likely due to the MCAT, the great equalizer. So don't sit there and say that the bottom 50% preclinical students of every med school class is doomed to mediocrity, because that makes you a prick. Being average in the preclinical years will only hold you back if you let it. Sorry if you spent all that extra effort for such diminished returns, go cry about it somewhere else.
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Yes, bc it's not like people who go to Harvard, Yale, Princeton, MIT for undergrad go to medical schools due to other factors like cost, or being closer to family, etc. It's not like medical schools recruit from different institutions for diversity. Heck there are BS/MD programs (@PL198), where you can skip most of college altogether, and go straight to med school as well. What point were you trying to prove with people coming from different undergrads? That they worked so hard and "only" got into a "middle of the middle tier" med school? You really think this somehow proves your point?

If your reasoning is that if someone went to undergrad at Vanderbilt, and bc they didn't go to Vanderbilt's med school and instead went to their state med school at LSU, that somehow their efforts were a "waste", you need to work on your reasoning skills.

I don't think you realize that the barrier to entry to medical school admissions is so much different than the barrier to entry for different specialties. Don't believe me? Go to a medical school's residency website and look at the different residents that populate different specialties. There's a reason people say here don't go into medical school with the aim of ONLY doing a certain specialty - you will change your mind, you will have to be flexible, and you have no idea what your record will be at the end of 4 years. There's a reason Charting Outcomes of the Match comes out - the next one coming out in 11 days.

As far as @operaman, having dimininished returns for extra effort --- #1 I don't believe that's the case, and I think you really should take care of your anger problem you have toward him, @southernIM, and @GuyWhoDoesStuff, who have been nothing but helpful to give students an inside view since they have already completed medical school. They're telling you what the TRENDS are. Why SDN hangs onto the notable and infrequent exception as their hope star is beyond me.

Yes, the bottom 50% of the class will have certain specialties shut off to them. Whether that affects you not, is different for every person.
 
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O Grady said:
So getting back on topic here:

I'm getting a little down in school as well. I'm 3 exams in and I've already failed one of them. The others were meh at best (for some reason no class averages were posted???)

I'm trying to change up study habits and be more efficient, but I'm afraid it won't be long before I'm the one busting into threads and ending my posts with hashtags of "4thquartileforlife"
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#4thquartilefor life, lol I like it. FM, here I come.
 
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Nah I wouldn't do FM, I shadowed FM and was bored to death. Outpatient psych was kinda boring too, but inpatient is cool.
 
#psych4life

Don't even care what quartile I'm in
 
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operaman said:
Are medical students this terrible at understanding and interpreting nuance in real life, or is it just on this board?

How you can read the preceding posts and come away with this perception is beyond me.
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He's not interested in actually listening. He only wants to hear views that already support his preformed opinions.
 
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