Below what salary would you stop wanting to be a doctor? (reprise)

[tank you]

i think this one is more accurate.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[shantster]

i think this one is more accurate.

I don't think that I can actually put a number on this one. For me, it would be below whatever would allow me to be able to pay off all my loans and still have money for general living expenses and be able to have a family. As much as I want to be a doctor, it wouldn't make sense for me to struggle to live off what I'm earning.

 

[tigress]

I agree with shantster. It depends on how much I owe in loans. But you don't include what I would usually say, which is about $80k.

 

[richarms]

I would be a doctor for 30K a year. Seriously, I'm not just saying that for the admissions committees, I don't care about money just give me enough to live on. I want to be a doctor no matter how much it pays.

Although I certainly won't complain about a larger salary...

 

[humuhumu]

Now I think the increments are too big. Assuming the current realities of medical training and my current job/family situation, my answer probably falls somewhere between 100 and 200.

 

[MD Rapper]

x

 

[JustR]

i think this one is more accurate.

Income,
Numbers
Money
Or whatever you want to call it!!!
It is never accurate.
In my opinion, ONLY
sorry but I had to write that after seeing more than three threads about incomes... or maybe even more...

 

[tubercle]

I agree with shantster. It depends on how much I owe in loans. But you don't include what I would usually say, which is about $80k.

you think you can live on 80k for 2 people plus a child? with no support from respective families? no way.

 

[Ross434]

you think you can live on 80k for 2 people plus a child? with no support from respective families? no way.

hahahaha

 

[stoic]

you think you can live on 80k for 2 people plus a child? with no support from respective families? no way.

are you a ****ing *****? what do you think the average household income in america is? here's a hint, 80k just about doubles it. and 130k/year puts you in like the top 10%. geez sometimes i think that only richest, most out of touch white kids with a sense of entitlement only slightly larger than the SUV they drive around in are the only people who post in pre-allo.

my cutoff would probably be between 80-100k/yr. not because i couldn't live on less, but rather because med school/residency is such a chore that i would like a comfortable income at the end of it all.

 

[freesolo]

are you a ****ing *****? what do you think the average household income in america is? here's a hint, 80k just about doubles it. and 130k/year puts you in like the top 10%. geez sometimes i think that only richest, most out of touch white kids with a sense of entitlement only slightly larger than the SUV they drive around in are the only people who post in pre-allo.

my cutoff would probably be between 80-100k/yr. not because i couldn't live on less, but rather because med school/residency is such a chore that i would like a comfortable income at the end of it all.

lol 80k isnt enough huh, family of 5 under 30K is what is for me lol.
I would do doc for 80k as long as my loans paid off.

 

[tank you]

you think you can live on 80k for 2 people plus a child? with no support from respective families? no way.

i agree. especially if both kids are in college, and live in cities where rent is insane.

 

[Amix500]

I don't know of US culture and way-of-life, but in my country, assuming 1 USD = 1 EUR, 80k Euros/Year is a very good stipend!

Some days ago I was browsing the Web, and I happened to read at:


<http://www.aamc.org/students/considering/careers.htm>

that:

<cite>
On average, doctors make about $160,000 a year, but this amount can vary depending on where physicians live and what type of medical specialty they practice.
</cite>

An average[/U] of 160k$/year is very high...isn't it?
Moreover, I found on some salary surveys that physicians and surgeons US salaries are on 200k$/year, with someone going near 1,000k$/year.
Are these figures right??

Are these big salaries determined by the private-based (non-public) health system in USA?
Moreover, can poor people get a medical assistance in USA? Or is USA medicine only for the rich people?


If you in USA can pay physicians and surgeons big money and give medical assistance to poor people, then your medical system is great !


MrAmix

 

[Ross434]

I don't know of US culture and way-of-life, but in my country, assuming 1 USD = 1 EUR, 80k Euros/Year is a very good stipend!

Some days ago I was browsing the Web, and I happened to read at:


<http://www.aamc.org/students/considering/careers.htm>

that:

<cite>
On average, doctors make about $160,000 a year, but this amount can vary depending on where physicians live and what type of medical specialty they practice.
</cite>

An average[/U] of 160k$/year is very high...isn't it?
Moreover, I found on some salary surveys that physicians and surgeons US salaries are on 200k$/year, with someone going near 1,000k$/year.
Are these figures right??

Are these big salaries determined by the private-based (non-public) health system in USA?
Moreover, can poor people get a medical assistance in USA? Or is USA medicine only for the rich people?


If you in USA can pay physicians and surgeons big money and give medical assistance to poor people, then your medical system is great !


MrAmix

No, you see... We cant.

 

[Dr2010]

with proper management of your oney, along with investments and the like I think any family can live extremely comfortable with 8o-100k, now if you need to upgrade your s500 every other year and make sure your plasma tv is no less than 52 in then maybe that might not be enough.

..o and dont forget the cell phone with itunes for your kindergarterner

 

[JustR]

If I don't make money... i would stop being doctor.

 

[primadonna22274]

I couldn't afford to work for less than $75k/year. That includes a mortgage, student loan payments (as much as my mortgage), modest car payment, insurance, food etc., basic living needs, a little savings, a little play $$, enough to give to causes I feel strongly about. Now, if I shared those expenses with someone, it would be a simpler transaction, but until then....
and I'm a PA. To go BACK to med school and practice as a physician would incur another several hundred thousand dollars in added educational debt and income lost while I was in school. Then my bare minimum salary would have to be $130k to make it worthwhile, and that's just eking by. $200k would be far more appealing.

 

[loveumms]

I think my minimum would be somewhere around $100,000 even though I would like to make much more (wouldn't we all???)

Undergrad - Med school - Intership - Residency = LOTS OF WORK

Plus, after its all said and done I'll be around 29-30 so I spent the prime of my life 'slaving' away ... hopefully there will be a decent return (ie making good money).

And to one of the above posters: a family of four can definitely live comfortably off of $80,000.

 

[doublepeak]

you think you can live on 80k for 2 people plus a child? with no support from respective families? no way.

The MOST my family (2 parents and 3 kids) EVER made was 50k a year and that was very comfortable for us. This thread exemplifies how rich and money-grubbing people here are.

 

[medworm]

I grew up poor ... under $40K for family of 4 ... and thinking that a brand new Ford Escort was the greatest thing on earth, but these days no amount of money will get you comfortable. Realistically, making $70K didn't dress me up in Helmut Lang and eliminate the need to buy Ikea. I honestly don't know where people get the money these days for overpriced margaritas, new SUVs, and designer furniture. I just read in the NY Times about a 43-yr old massage therapist selling her house for $1 million dollars to live on Stinson Beach. What a life.

 

[juiceman311]

I would say 150,000. I want to do orthopaedic surgery, or maybe pediatric cardiac surgery...large time/money investments...

 

[loveumms]

The MOST my family (2 parents and 3 kids) EVER made was 50k a year and that was very comfortable for us. This thread exemplifies how rich and money-grubbing people here are.

Sorry that you feel like you were deprived. I don't think wanting to make a good amount of money is being "money-grubbing" - you sacrafice a TON to become a physician and you should be compensated. I think that giving up 4 years of your life as a resident should at least allow you to make a decent amout of money (and that isn't even counting the years you spend as an undergrad and med student).

Yeah, my parents made good money (dad is an aerospace engineer and mom is an RN) but I was never spoon fed anything. Yes, they provided me with what I needed but they also made me work for what I've got now.

I'm going to come out of med school with over $200,000 in debt and I hope that I will be rewarded with making at least $100,000 when I get out so that I can pay off my school debt, have a nice living and be able to provide for my family. Is that being money-grubbing??? Considering I have friends that came out of undergraduate, went into the business world and are making $300,000. I don't think its too much to ask to make $100,000 after giving up so much.

Furthermore, doesn't everyone want to max out their earning potential? Its nice to think that you will be able to live comfortably, have a nice retirement and hopefully never have to worry about money again (unlike now where I'm expected to live on $12,000 a year).

 

[CerealBox]

Sorry that you feel like you were deprived. I don't think wanting to make a good amount of money is being "money-grubbing" - you sacrafice a TON to become a physician and you should be compensated. I think that giving up 4 years of your life as a resident should at least allow you to make a decent amout of money (and that isn't even counting the years you spend as an undergrad and med student).

Yeah, my parents made good money (dad is an aerospace engineer and mom is an RN) but I was never spoon fed anything. Yes, they provided me with what I needed but they also made me work for what I've got now.

I'm going to come out of med school with over $200,000 in debt and I hope that I will be rewarded with making at least $100,000 when I get out so that I can pay off my school debt, have a nice living and be able to provide for my family. Is that being money-grubbing??? Considering I have friends that came out of undergraduate, went into the business world and are making $300,000. I don't think its too much to ask to make $100,000 after giving up so much.

Furthermore, doesn't everyone want to max out their earning potential? Its nice to think that you will be able to live comfortably, have a nice retirement and hopefully never have to worry about money again (unlike now where I'm expected to live on $12,000 a year).

Yes.. maybe docs worked hard and deserve to make more...

but it is definitely possible to live very comfortably making 40K. i am in a family of 4 right now living off of 36K, and I have a great quality of life.

i would be a doc for 40K or more...

 

[sacrament]

After all this BS, there is no way I'll work for less than 200K. No way in hell.

 

[thegenius]

Now I think the increments are too big. Assuming the current realities of medical training and my current job/family situation, my answer probably falls somewhere between 100 and 200.

hmm...so picky.

 

[MD2b06]

These types of threads are useless in a pre-med forum. Sorry, but undergrad was a joke in comparison to med school. And I know med school will be a joke once I start internship in 9 months. Go post this in a residency forum, and you'll get a realistic idea of what's in store. Until then, pre-meds who have very little idea of what a career in medicine truly entails stating that "oh, i'd gladly work for 30k" is a joke! And no, having parents that are physicians and logging all those hours at the hospital volunteering and doing all that other stuff that pre-meds do to gain exposure to medicine does not mean you truly know what you're getting into. I did all that stuff. My dad is a very busy physician. I volunteered hundreds of hours throughout college. I shadowed many specialists during college. I thought if anyone knew what they were getting into, it was me. In reality, I had no clue. You truly have to experience it for yourself. In the end, I know I still made the right decision in going to med school. I found a field that I truly love. Not everyone is that fortunate. I know many people who aren't going into fields they enjoy, but are going into fields that annoy them the least. Others have said screw clinical medicine altogether and are planning on doing health care consulting, public health, etc. Medicine does not come without its costs. And for the overwhelming majority, I can guarantee you the necessary compensation to put up with the a lot of the BS that practicing modern medicine entails is far in excess of $30K/yr.

 

[dbhvt]

I thought if anyone knew what they were getting into, it was me. In reality, I had no clue. You truly have to experience it for yourself. In the end, I know I still made the right decision in going to med school.

MD2b,

What does it mean to "experience it for yourself".

 

[morgan]

you think you can live on 80k for 2 people plus a child? with no support from respective families? no way.

My dad worked for like 78k a year, my mom didn't work. Three kids. Oh yeah and we're not poor either.

 

[Pose]

No less than $120,000. I'm planning on staying current with the business aspects of medicine too, though. So if all goes well...

 

[SOUNDMAN]

These types of threads are useless in a pre-med forum. Sorry, but undergrad was a joke in comparison to med school. And I know med school will be a joke once I start internship in 9 months. Go post this in a residency forum, and you'll get a realistic idea of what's in store. Until then, pre-meds who have very little idea of what a career in medicine truly entails stating that "oh, i'd gladly work for 30k" is a joke! And no, having parents that are physicians and logging all those hours at the hospital volunteering and doing all that other stuff that pre-meds do to gain exposure to medicine does not mean you truly know what you're getting into. I did all that stuff. My dad is a very busy physician. I volunteered hundreds of hours throughout college. I shadowed many specialists during college. I thought if anyone knew what they were getting into, it was me. In reality, I had no clue. You truly have to experience it for yourself. In the end, I know I still made the right decision in going to med school. I found a field that I truly love. Not everyone is that fortunate. I know many people who aren't going into fields they enjoy, but are going into fields that annoy them the least. Others have said screw clinical medicine altogether and are planning on doing health care consulting, public health, etc. Medicine does not come without its costs. And for the overwhelming majority, I can guarantee you the necessary compensation to put up with the a lot of the BS that practicing modern medicine entails is far in excess of $30K/yr.

Amen, only probably people who have actually had a family and paid a mortgage, loan payments, pay for kids, etc, truly understand how difficult it is to live on 30K/year. There are those that do it, and I applaud them, but they ain't practicing medicine and didn't put that time into it as well.

 

[MoosePilot]

i agree. especially if both kids are in college, and live in cities where rent is insane.

Parents don't have to pay for college, especially if their income isn't so high as to keep the kids from getting financial aid. You don't have to live in cities were rent is insane. It's all about choices. Food, shelter, medical care, clothing, and transportation to work are the main neccessities of life.

 

[tubercle]

My dad worked for like 78k a year, my mom didn't work. Three kids. Oh yeah and we're not poor either.

If you want to live in a major city, be able to put your children through a good school system and then pay for college...which i imagine to cost 50k a year in the not so distant future, 80k is not enough.

Is there anyone who would really disagree with that? Just look at the cost of living in dc, boston, nyc, la, or sf.

This in no way makes me spoiled or money grubbing...which by the way is so unbelievably childish to write, whoever that above poster is.

In addition think about the time and monetary investment in your education.

I completely agree with what md2b06 wrote. you're an unpaid slave for the 2nd 2 years of med school and then worked like a dog for residency and paid nothing. its really not fair...but the way it is, its only fair to be compensated accordingly

 

[Stroganoff]

I'll be close to 40 when I finish residency if all goes to plan...I'll be in so much friggin debt and will have next to nothing saved for retirement. I'll need the high salary to make up for over a decade of lost time.

With an engineering master's I'd be making 6 figures by the age of 25-26 with promotions on the way. With all the bitchwork of residency, we'll all need a hunk of change just to break even and hope we all live to an old age of 95 or something to enjoy it.

 

[doublepeak]

If you want to live in a major city, be able to put your children through a good school system and then pay for college...which i imagine to cost 50k a year in the not so distant future, 80k is not enough.

Is there anyone who would really disagree with that? Just look at the cost of living in dc, boston, nyc, la, or sf.

This in no way makes me spoiled or money grubbing...which by the way is so unbelievably childish to write, whoever that above poster is.

When I said my family of 5 made 50k a year, we lived in Los Angeles. We lived in Beverly Hills (a nice apartment 3 bedroom apartment where we converted the living room to a 4th bedroom, not a house) so don't say that was a bad or cheap area. I'll admit that most everyone on the street had a more expensive car and such, but its not like we were without cars or anything we needed to feel comfortable.

If you want to make a certain amount, that is fine....but do not be niave and say that it is not possible to do under a certain amount of money when you really have no idea.

 

[tubercle]

When I said my family of 5 made 50k a year, we lived in Los Angeles. We lived in Beverly Hills (a nice apartment 3 bedroom apartment where we converted the living room to a 4th bedroom, not a house) so don't say that was a bad or cheap area. I'll admit that most everyone on the street had a more expensive car and such, but its not like we were without cars or anything we needed to feel comfortable.

If you want to make a certain amount, that is fine....but do not be niave and say that it is not possible to do under a certain amount of money when you really have no idea.

Congrats if your family made it work. I don't see it as a possibility, and that in now way makes me naive. I am in no way a "thing" oriented person. I just know how much my family had to struggle to make sure i got the best possible education, and being 100% honest, it would not have been possible on 50k a year.

 

[NRAI2001]

with proper management of your oney, along with investments and the like I think any family can live extremely comfortable with 8o-100k, now if you need to upgrade your s500 every other year and make sure your plasma tv is no less than 52 in then maybe that might not be enough.

..o and dont forget the cell phone with itunes for your kindergarterner

Making 100k a year, i doubt you could buy a s500, probably not even making 200k. Unless if you want to spend an entire year or two worth of your salary on your car.

As much as i would like to do medicine, there are many things that med students/residents have to give up (i.e. a large portion of their youth, years and years of sleep...etc) and you reach a point where you need to weigh the costs and benefits.

 

[Ross434]

Making 100k a year, i doubt you could buy a s500, probably not even making 200k. Unless if you want to spend an entire year or two worth of your salary on your car.

As much as i would like to do medicine, there are many things that med students have to give up (i.e. a large portion of their youth, years and years of sleep...etc) and you reach a point where you need to weigh the costs and benefits.

ok here we go again with people who think that only elite people can afford elite cars. A $100,000 car costs about $1800/month. Considering that, if you make $100,000/year, you're probably making around $5500/month. I think you can afford such a car and still have enough money for a luxury apartment and elite food.. Along these same lines. Given the power of time and asset growth, a person making $100,000 can afford a $750,000 house by the time they're 50. Do these things piss you guys off? It seems like people get upset and think "no way is somebody who's just a (teacher/mechanic/construction worker) going to be able to drive the same car and live in the same neighborhood as i do" Well guess what. It happens. I hope some of you guys arent upset when you realize that people live with a great quality of life, and maybe even enjoy life more than you, have a nicer car than you, or live right by your side even when they're making less money. Hey guess what - they're probably not working as hard as you either. Life isn't fair, and money isnt everything.

 

[NRAI2001]

ok here we go again with people who think that only elite people can afford elite cars. A $100,000 car costs about $1800/month. Considering that, if you make $100,000/year, you're probably making around $5500/month. I think you can afford such a car and still have enough money for a luxury apartment and elite food.. Along these same lines. Given the power of time and asset growth, a person making $100,000 can afford a $750,000 house by the time they're 50. Do these things piss you guys off? It seems like people get upset and think "no way is somebody who's just a (teacher/mechanic/construction worker) going to be able to drive the same car and live in the same neighborhood as i do" Well guess what. It happens. I hope some of you guys arent upset when you realize that people live with a great quality of life, and maybe even enjoy life more than you, have a nicer car than you, or live right by your side even when they're making less money. Hey guess what - they're probably not working as hard as you either. Life isn't fair, and money isnt everything.

Sure if you want 40% of your income to go towards one car. Your forgetting that your wife may want a car also, she didn't marry a doctor to ride the bus. Then you ve got house payments, which maybe from $2000 to $5000. other random payements that may come up, furniture, vacations...etc. You wouldn't have any money to make any investments.

I m guessing if your looking to buy a s500 your probably looking to also live a very affluent life style.

I don't know of any mechanic/teacher/construction worker buying 100k cars and living in expensive houses, unless if they have some sort of side business or second means of income (which is possible).

 

[MD2b06]

MD2b,

What does it mean to "experience it for yourself".

I thought it was a pretty straightforward concept. Bottom line: Asking people who haven't gone to med school/endured residency/practiced clinical medicine how much they would do the job for is inane. How can they possibly put a value on it when they have no idea what it truly entails? My friends and I did are pretty much sacrificing the prime years of our lives (our 20's and even some of our 30's) to train to become fully licensed physicians. My undergrad and med school education cost $300K. Are idealistic pre-meds so delusional to think your average med student will work for 10% of that when all is said and done? Even if the average physician salary was 75K instead of 175K, I can guarantee you getting into an allopathic med school in this country would not be very difficult. We live in a capitalistic society. Where there is money, there is competition. Take away the money...and well...you guessed it. Sure, ppl will still go into medicine to feed their egos, etc. Overall though, the quality of applicants would drastically plummet. Sure, everyone has a magic salary, below which you'd rather not practice medicine. To state what the number is before you've even started med school is idealistic at best, ignorant at worst.

 

[beary]

I would be a doctor for 30K a year. Seriously, I'm not just saying that for the admissions committees, I don't care about money just give me enough to live on. I want to be a doctor no matter how much it pays.

I hope you aren't actually saying that to admissions committees because that would make you look pretty naive.

 

[tank you]

Parents don't have to pay for college, especially if their income isn't so high as to keep the kids from getting financial aid. You don't have to live in cities were rent is insane. It's all about choices. Food, shelter, medical care, clothing, and transportation to work are the main neccessities of life.

well, if they are making 80k, which i was referring to in my earlier post, they are not eligible for financial aid. and of course you dont have to live in a high-rent city, unless the college is located there. i guess it differs for everyone...

 

[zzman]

maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan, i WOULD have been a doctor for free, but after all this admissions stuff, my price is getting more and more expensive. If they were just a little nicer to us.... just a little bit.

 

[NRAI2001]

maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan, i WOULD have been a doctor for free, but after all this admissions stuff, my price is getting more and more expensive. If they were just a little nicer to us.... just a little bit.

Yea thats what i use to think also, but after doing 4 years of undergrad, research, working in clinical settings, and MCATSSSS my view has totally changed. I know that there will be even more harder work to come.

 

[dbhvt]

Bottom line: Asking people who haven't gone to med school/endured residency/practiced clinical medicine how much they would do the job for is inane. How can they possibly put a value on it when they have no idea what it truly entails? ...Sure, everyone has a magic salary, below which you'd rather not practice medicine. To state what the number is before you've even started med school is idealistic at best, ignorant at worst.

When you say, "experience it for yourself", the it is problematic. That's all I was trying to say.

Let me explain. You say you had no idea what you were getting into when you went to medical school, even though you had significant experience going in. Now, as an M4, you know from first hand experience the sacrifice medical school entails, as well as the reality of clinical rotations. But, as you alluded to, someone in the middle of their surgical residency might say you yourself have no idea what you're getting into, that the horrors of residency make medical school look like a walk in the park. Then, an independently practicing primary care physician might tell the resident to stop whining and get some perspective, that she has no idea what practicing in the real world is all about. Then a medicine subspecialist at an academic medical center will slap the PCP up the head and tell him that he has no concept of anything outside the scope of primary care, and life is entirely different as a gastroenterologist. A dermatologist then tells the gastroenterologist that she doesn't know beans about his lifestyle.

To drive my long winded point home, one can always say that the answers x group of people give to a question are irrelevant. But this statement entirely depends on the question you are really trying to answer. If the question is, "what is the lowest level of pay physicians would accept before leaving medicine?", then you are right, this poll and thread are inane. If the question is aimed at trying to characterize a particular group of pre-meds, then, I submit, the poll is right on target.

I also submit that the average pre-allo SDNer knows more about the realities of the health care industry and physician lifestyle than my dog, and less than MD2b06. So quit rubbing our nose in the fact that you know more about medical school than us, and let us revel in our wisdom relative to my dog.

 

[NRAI2001]

Yea, this thread has no real answer. Everyone go kick jtank in the shin.

 

[UCdannyLA]

Congrats if your family made it work. I don't see it as a possibility, and that in now way makes me naive. I am in no way a "thing" oriented person. I just know how much my family had to struggle to make sure i got the best possible education, and being 100% honest, it would not have been possible on 50k a year.

80k is not enough?

Get a clue...50k is more than enough for most families in America...Dang, my parents made less than that for a long time...and I grew up in Orange County, CA...went to a good high school....nationally ranked university (UCLA).....so if a less-than-50K family income got me a great education from UCLA...............which I believe is damn near the "best possible education" I could ever get in the U.S., I don't know what the hell you are talking about.


Freakin' A.... naive people crack me up.

 

[LJDHC05]

Reality check here for ya'll:

During your residency you'll be making about $40-60k...but paying back loans, rent, auto stuff, insurance, food you'll probably have about 2k left over to play with...sorry to deflate your getting rich dilusions cause medicine isnt the way to do it until you're in your late 30's and WELL established and have your loans and interest paid off...so there's about a decade of practicing medicine on a low take home income. You can all pull your applications out now and save me alot of trouble

 

[sacrament]

Actually, there is NO salary that would make me want to be a doctor anymore. There is only a salary at which point it becomes economically less painful.

 

[NRAI2001]

80k is not enough?

Get a clue...50k is more than enough for most families in America...Dang, my parents made less than that for a long time...and I grew up in Orange County, CA...went to a good high school....nationally ranked university (UCLA).....so if a less-than-50K family income got me a great education from UCLA...............which I believe is damn near the "best possible education" I could ever get in the U.S., I don't know what the hell you are talking about.


Freakin' A.... naive people crack me up.

When ur a doctor u ll be singing a different tune. 80k for any professional degree is very low. You need to consider what someone had to give up to reach that position. Most doctors gave up most of their 20s and early 30s.

Could u get by on 80k a year, of course; you could get by on probably 10k a year. But making 80k a year will be hardly a reimbursment for all the time, money, energy, sleep, hair (i heard most guy med students are bald by the time they re done) and YOUTH you put in.

 

[UCdannyLA]

When ur a doctor u ll be singing a different tune. 80k for any professional degree is very low. You need to consider what someone had to give up to reach that position. Most doctors gave up most of their 20s and early 30s.

Could u get by on 80k a year, of course; you could get by on probably 10k a year. But making 80k a year will be hardly a reimbursment for all the time, money, energy, sleep, hair (i heard most guy med students are bald by the time they re done) and YOUTH you put in.

That's all I was referring to...that you can get by, and your family can live comfortably if you have an income of 80k....sure you might be stressed out of your mind with work and what not and 80 might not be "worth" all the stress, but your family could most definitely live comfortably with 80k. I didn't say anything about whether all the stress/work/time invested was worth 80k.