Thought Experiment: when will people stop wanting to become doctors?

[deleted1139416]

With tuition going up every year (some even as high as $100K), doctor salaries going down, salaries of other fields going up (especially in tech), midlevel creep, expanding scope of artificial intelligence, having to take even more gap years just to have a decent shot, do we think that one day people will stop wanting to become doctors? Especially now that nursing salaries are so high and the midlevel creep is getting higher and higher? I honestly think that by 2040 we will see a major shift. I'm not trying to say that people become doctors only for the money - but there are so many other careers that also benefit societies and communities if you get the right job at the right company without having to starve for your entire 20s and early 30s.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[KnightDoc]

I'm not sure where you are going with this? Some people stopped wanting to become doctors decades ago, and others will never stop. Everyone does their own cost/benefit analysis and comes to their own conclusion.

As the costs become higher and the future rewards lower, more people will switch out. But, given the huge supply/demand imbalance between available spots and people who want it, we are very far away from the point where med school is easy to get into, and even further away from the point where there are more spots than applicants. In fact, it has never been more difficult to become a doctor than it is today, even though there are more available seats in med schools than ever before.

So, 2040, is a very arbitrary guess that is based on nothing. People speculated in the 1970s and 1980s that medicine would become an undesirable profession due to the widespread introduction of managed care (HMOs, etc.) encroaching on the autonomy of doctors to make decisions for their patients and artificially constricting their ability to earn. Didn't happen. The profession adapted. HMOs mostly morphed into PPOs, and doctors continued to do very well, although maybe not as well as they would have if nothing changed.

Now it's tech salaries, MFA, PE, midlevels, etc. It will always be something. Let's first get back to where it was 10 years ago, then 20, then 40, in terms of desirability and competitiveness, and THEN let's talk about major shifts! So far, more and more people have been attracted every year, as compared to those turned off, and the need is only increasing as the population ages. JMHO.

 

[Goro]

When the field becomes saturated like Law and Pharm.

When the field is no longer seen as prestigious

When the field is seen as not being lucrative

When Tiger Parents lose the Tiger mindset

 

[mike-sheree]

Depending on political winds and the direction society “ evolves” I can see a distinct scenario similar to China’s fabled “ barefoot “ doctors translated to a first world USA- type society. Mid levels and fundamentally trained MD/DO’s will provide the vast amount of care. Specialists will be geographically located and limited as will the care they are ALLOWED to provide and to WHOM. This will, of course, occur under a government run, single payor plan. Much individual choice will need to be sacrificed for “ the greater good”.

The dumpster fire we currently have will change in one way or another, hopefully for the better.

 

[deleted1139339]

When the field becomes saturated like Law and Pharm.

When the field is no longer seen as prestigious

When the field is seen as not being lucrative

When Tiger Parents lose the Tiger mindset

I especially agree with the last point there, but with a caveat:

Even as the “tiger parent” stereotype becomes rarer (I say this as an Asian who has seen a decrease of this stereotype in my own family), immigration laws continue to perpetuate the current culture.

Ever since the 1965 Hart-Cellar Immigration Act establishing the current visa/green card system, only “high-skilled” individuals can legally immigrate. This effectively means lawyers/doctors/engineers/business people. So the immigrant population will be filled with mostly doctor and engineers as a result of selection bias. And EVEN if these immigrants don’t force their kids into the aforementioned careers, the kids will only ever grow up around lawyers/doctors/engineers/business people. Thus they will think those are the only career options.

For example, a pipe dream of mine is to become a playback singer for the Indian film industry. But I literally don’t know how to even find my way in the Tollywood film industry. I don’t have anyone in my family to guide me, since everyone (everyone in the U.S. or aspiring to migrate to the U.S.) is a doctor/engineer/small business owner. So I ended up choosing between environmental engineering and medicine. In fact, I was waitlisted at a tech school for undergrad to study enviro engineering, and if I had gotten in I wouldn’t be premed. But instead I was premed at Cal studying CS (you can’t switch into the College of Engineering at Cal, so Enviro Eng wasn’t an option). And so I became another Asian stereotype.

It’s just easier to go into medicine or engineering when you spend your entire life watching your siblings/aunts/uncles apply for med school/residency or watch your father write code at his computer or watch your mother sketch architectural plans or listen to your grandfather explain his former job as an electrical engineer at a power plant.

My parents never forced me into medicine or engineering. But I don’t know anything else other than medicine or engineering.

So for now, my singing will simply be party entertainment.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

My friend fell on his knee. Was told by the Ortho PA he had a bad pcl sprain, as mri report indicated. Friend showed the mri to his neighbor, a msk radiologist who said it was a complete pcl tear. Orthopedics said it was a sprained pcl, until he examined him. That confirmed the pcl tear. Noting a complete pcl tear on mri is not hard. Mid-level encroachment and docs too busy to look at x rays are not helping the prestige aspect of medicine. Lumping everyone together, regardless of how much training they have, as providers is corrosive to quality. We currently are on a race to the bottom with administration calling the shots who know little of medicine and are not our intellectual peers. As far as Chinese doctors, I was in China prior to Covid. People buy their own health insurance there. If you show up in the ER with no insurance, you lay on the gurney until your family shows up with the cash. This told to us by our guide.

 

[deleted1139416]

If you show up in the ER with no insurance, you lay on the gurney until your family shows up with the cash.

My family is from a 3rd world country where this happens as well. It’s disgusting and horrible.

 

[deleted1139416]

My friend fell on his knee. Was told by the Ortho PA he had a bad pcl sprain, as mri report indicated. Friend showed the mri to his neighbor, a msk radiologist who said it was a complete pcl tear. Orthopedics said it was a sprained pcl, until he examined him. That confirmed the pcl tear. Noting a complete pcl tear on mri is not hard. Mid-level encroachment and docs too busy to look at x rays are not helping the prestige aspect of medicine. Lumping everyone together, regardless of how much training they have, as providers is corrosive to quality. We currently are on a race to the bottom with administration calling the shots who know little of medicine and are not our intellectual peers. As far as Chinese doctors, I was in China prior to Covid. People buy their own health insurance there. If you show up in the ER with no insurance, you lay on the gurney until your family shows up with the cash. This told to us by our guide.

I’m really hoping that the legal system takes care of bloodsucking administration and midlevel organizations that are out to kill patients for their own profit. Hopefully I will see this in my lifetime and see the pendulum swing back in the favor of those who know what they are doing.

 

[KnightDoc]

I’m really hoping that the legal system takes care of bloodsucking administration and midlevel organizations that are out to kill patients for their own profit. Hopefully I will see this in my lifetime and see the pendulum swing back in the favor of those who know what they are doing.

Not gonna happen. The struggle is now between private financial interests (private equity, large hospital groups, insurance companies, etc.) and public governmental ones (Medicare for all).

Those who know what they are doing, and actually care about patients and outcomes, have been pushed aside. That train has left the station and isn't coming back. The legal system already punishes people who do wrong with large malpractice awards, which are now part of the cost of doing business. There will be no "taking care" of anyone beyond that. At least not by the legal system.

 

[LizzyM]

The problems associated with the practice of medicine won't matter to those who are merely pursuing the title "doctor" for the prestige associated with it in their community/culture.

Schools might close if they can't attract strong US candidates. (This happened in dentistry.) Not all of them will close but we produce far fewer US trained physicians and make up the difference by importing the best and brightest who have been trained abroad. Many will be willing to do an additional 3 years of residency in the states for a shot at the American Dream even if it means practicing under the thumb of administrators and third-party payers.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

I’m really hoping that the legal system takes care of bloodsucking administration and midlevel organizations that are out to kill patients for their own profit. Hopefully I will see this in my lifetime and see the pendulum swing back in the favor of those who know what they are doing.

Not unless administrators go to jail for their policies, staffing, etc.. Hard to prove. Will have to show intent, a causal relationship from their policies to harm.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

As soon as residency spots drastically expand.

S.834 - 117th Congress (2021-2022): Resident Physician Shortage Reduction Act of 2021

Summary of S.834 - 117th Congress (2021-2022): Resident Physician Shortage Reduction Act of 2021

www.congress.gov

If this ever happens, field is done for.

 

[deleted1139416]

As soon as residency spots drastically expand.

S.834 - 117th Congress (2021-2022): Resident Physician Shortage Reduction Act of 2021

Summary of S.834 - 117th Congress (2021-2022): Resident Physician Shortage Reduction Act of 2021

www.congress.gov

If this ever happens, field is done for.

That bill was introduced 16 months ago LOL. It’s pretty much dead. Congress has been extremely hesitant to increase residency spots.

 

[Goro]

I especially agree with the last point there, but with a caveat:

Even as the “tiger parent” stereotype becomes rarer (I say this as an Asian who has seen a decrease of this stereotype in my own family), immigration laws continue to perpetuate the current culture.

Ever since the 1965 Hart-Cellar Immigration Act establishing the current visa/green card system, only “high-skilled” individuals can legally immigrate. This effectively means lawyers/doctors/engineers/business people. So the immigrant population will be filled with mostly doctor and engineers as a result of selection bias. And EVEN if these immigrants don’t force their kids into the aforementioned careers, the kids will only ever grow up around lawyers/doctors/engineers/business people. Thus they will think those are the only career options.

For example, a pipe dream of mine is to become a playback singer for the Indian film industry. But I literally don’t know how to even find my way in the Tollywood film industry. I don’t have anyone in my family to guide me, since everyone (everyone in the U.S. or aspiring to migrate to the U.S.) is a doctor/engineer/small business owner. So I ended up choosing between environmental engineering and medicine. And so I became another stereotype.

It’s just easier to go into medicine or engineering when you spend your entire life watching your siblings/aunts/uncles apply for med school/residency or watch your father write code at his computer or watch your mother sketch architectural plans or listen to your grandfather explain his former job as an electrical engineer at a power plant.

My parents never forced me into medicine or engineering. But I don’t know anything else other than medicine or engineering.

So for now, my singing will simply be party entertainment.

Tiger parents come in all colors. And I should know, because I grew up amongst many of them and they were definitely not south or east Asian.

 

[deleted1139416]

Tiger parents come in all colors. And I should know, because I grew up amongst many of them and they were definitely not south or east Asian.

Let me guess. Southeast Asian? 🤣

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

That bill was introduced 16 months ago LOL. It’s pretty much dead. Congress has been extremely hesitant to increase residency spots.

Could easily just take pressure from an extra 3000 or so unmatched applicants who can’t pay there loans. School expansion has been so rapid that the number of unmatched will only continue to increase

Also it’s usually introduced every year, so it’s not like it won’t be considered again

 

[deleted1139416]

Could easily just take pressure from an extra 3000 or so unmatched applicants who can’t pay there loans. School expansion has been so rapid that the number of unmatched will only continue to increase

Also it’s usually introduced every year, so it’s not like it won’t be considered again

Although school expansion has been rapid, it has hurt FMGs and IMGs much more than US trained MDs and DOs. As long as residency spots outnumber US MD and DO graduate numbers, we’re good.

There’s also a glut of boomer docs retiring, especially those who outsourced management of their retirement portfolio to asset management companies who timed the markets well since the pandemic.

 

[mike-sheree]

Never hire a wealth manager who says he/she/ they “time the markets”. No one can do that with any consistency whatsoever.

Although school expansion has been rapid, it has hurt FMGs and IMGs much more than US trained MDs and DOs. As long as residency spots outnumber US MD and DO graduate numbers, we’re good.

There’s also a glut of boomer docs retiring, especially those who outsourced management of their retirement portfolio to asset management companies who timed the markets well since the pandemic.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

There are some good funds that provide downside protection which can be beneficial for retirees. For example, bridgewater has returned 35% ytd

Never hire a wealth manager who says he/she/ they “time the markets”. No one can do that with any consistent whatsoever.

 

[deleted1139416]

Never hire a wealth manager who says he/she/ they “time the markets”. No one can do that with any consistent whatsoever.

I'm saying this after the fact....

 

[mike-sheree]

What has it done over the past 10 years vs S&P idx with 0.03% fee? One year performance is a mediocre gauge. You want a Fibonacci plot played out over the past 80 years that will give you a 95% or > chance of meeting your goals. That is a true stress test that means MUCH more than any 1 yr performance.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Maybe when there is so much interference in the doctor-patient relationship due to politics, insurance, or for-profit systems that a "lifelong" career in medicine is improbable. (shrugs)

 

[drdoug]

With tuition going up every year (some even as high as $100K), doctor salaries going down, salaries of other fields going up (especially in tech), midlevel creep, expanding scope of artificial intelligence, having to take even more gap years just to have a decent shot, do we think that one day people will stop wanting to become doctors? Especially now that nursing salaries are so high and the midlevel creep is getting higher and higher? I honestly think that by 2040 we will see a major shift. I'm not trying to say that people become doctors only for the money - but there are so many other careers that also benefit societies and communities if you get the right job at the right company without having to starve for your entire 20s and early 30s.

Interesting question, however, there are still thousands of applications for entrance into medical school. I recently looked up The Kaiser Permanente Bernard J. Tyson School of Medicine - their acceptance rate of applicants is just 1%. Now, that is what I call "extreme competition." I suspect that when people really start to realize that life has meaning besides spending 8-15 years of book studying - then people will realize the true "meaning of life." Furthermore, when something like the British system of "socialized medicine" takes hold in the U.S. - then applicants will begin to see that the life of a physician often times is not that glamourous! Of course, the "Mother Theresa" types will still apply and will be content working in a very small community or in some isolated outpost. Conclusion: people still have dreams and hopes, and medicine at any cost may be their goal. Period.

 

[Gonio5]

2 areas not discussed.

1. If you are a doctor or have a doctor as a close relative, you have potentially better access to doctors. If you call for an appointment, most doctors will squeeze you in if you have a serious problem.

2. If you are a doctor, you and your family will have a better idea on what medical issues are trivial and what are serious. Every doctor has probably seen patients who are overly concerned about nothing and not concerned about some things that they should be worried about.

A doctor can also potentially monitor a close relative's health when they are in the hospital. Not being a helicopter parent/relative but being able to recognize if there is some shortfall in care. It does happen. Hospitals, especially support staff, do make mistakes though it's much worse in nursing homes.

In other words, as a doctor, you have specialized knowledge, almost keys to the kingdom, even to fields that are not your specialty.

 

[petomed]

The moment mid-level reimbursement is the same as for physicians.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

The moment mid-level reimbursement is the same as for physicians.

Already true in Oregon

 

[deleted1139416]

Already true in Oregon

Not in Oregon but my GI doctor did this already by having his NP see me and then billing my insurance for a full physician visit. Never once did I see him. Is that normal? Or does that count as insurance fraud?

 

[CyrilFiggis]

As far as Chinese doctors, I was in China prior to Covid. People buy their own health insurance there. If you show up in the ER with no insurance, you lay on the gurney until your family shows up with the cash. This told to us by our guide.

this is why EMTALA exists.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Not in Oregon but my GI doctor did this already by having his NP see me and then billing my insurance for a full physician visit. Never once did I see him. Is that normal? Or does that count as insurance fraud?

Looks like it’s already true for mental health and primary care visits. What a joke.

https://www.oregonrn.org/page/670

https://www.nursepractitionersoforegon.org/page/news20160225/Legislature-Votes-to-Make-NP-Payment-Parity-Law-Permanent.htm

 

[petomed]

Looks like it’s already true for mental health and primary care visits. What a joke.

https://www.oregonrn.org/page/670

https://www.nursepractitionersoforegon.org/page/news20160225/Legislature-Votes-to-Make-NP-Payment-Parity-Law-Permanent.htm

“…at the same rates when they perform the same services.”

Any restriction in services being disbursed by family med docs vs. pa’s NP’s in Oregon?

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

“…at the same rates when they perform the same services.”

Any restriction in services being disbursed by family med docs vs. pa’s NP’s in Oregon?

I would imagine that most PCP FM docs perform similar services especially in cities like Portland. I’m not sure how much OBGYN and procedures FM docs do in Oregon. I know it’s more common in rural areas

 

[Angus Avagadro]

this is why EMTALA exists.

No EMTALA in China.

 

[deleted1139416]

No EMTALA in China.

What makes me really sad is how many pre-meds in the United States go into the process wanting to help low-income people but come out extremely jaded after med school + residency + fellowship and lose that passion.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Several years ago, a study from Hopkins, I believe, looked at bias amongst new MS1s, MS4s, and Residents. They found bias towards patients increased with training level. This is clearly because the new students hadn't met patients yet. This should not be unexpected as sick people, and people wading through the healthcare system can frequently be rather unpleasant and unappreciative. Often taking it out on the person in front of them. Not everyone gets jaded and loses their passion. I'd like to think it's a maturation process, realizing the game isn't quite what they thought it was.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Several years ago, a study from Hopkins, I believe, looked at bias amongst new MS1s, MS4s, and Residents. They found bias towards patients increased with training level. This is clearly because the new students hadn't met patients yet. This should not be unexpected as sick people, and people wading through the healthcare system can frequently be rather unpleasant and unappreciative. Often taking it out on the person in front of them. Not everyone gets jaded and loses their passion. I'd like to think it's a maturation process, realizing the game isn't quite what they thought it was.

This is the most recent systematic review of more recent literature on the topic, especially since the 2011 article (also including):
Revisiting the trajectory of medical students’ empathy, and impact of gender, specialty preferences and nationality: a systematic review - BMC Medical Education (2020)
Empathy Decline and Its Reasons: A Systematic Review of... : Academic Medicine (2011).

 

[senecca]

With tuition going up every year (some even as high as $100K), doctor salaries going down, salaries of other fields going up (especially in tech), midlevel creep, expanding scope of artificial intelligence, having to take even more gap years just to have a decent shot, do we think that one day people will stop wanting to become doctors? Especially now that nursing salaries are so high and the midlevel creep is getting higher and higher? I honestly think that by 2040 we will see a major shift. I'm not trying to say that people become doctors only for the money - but there are so many other careers that also benefit societies and communities if you get the right job at the right company without having to starve for your entire 20s and early 30s.

The change in dynamics is already underway. Medicine is not the topmost attraction anymore among the brightest students. They head to Wall Street, business or IT.

The demand will remain the same among the low income students who qualify for need based aid and ultra rich because the cost is no barrier to them. In addition to $400k for medical school, you have to add another $200k at least for undergrad. It is too much of a burden for people in the middle (donut hole families), no matter how passionate they are about the medicine or serving the community. It is impractical. So, the demand will continue to decline among this group and it is not a small group. The competition to get into state medical schools will become even more intense because of the cost benefit. Even for undergrad, the ORM kids with 3.9+ and 1500+ find it hard to get into our state university, they cannot attend private or OOS public schools.

We will end up importing H1B doctors from foreign countries pretty soon.

 

[KnightDoc]

The change in dynamics is already underway. Medicine is not the topmost attraction anymore among the brightest students. They head to Wall Street, business or IT.

The demand will remain the same among the low income students who qualify for need based aid and ultra rich because the cost is no barrier to them. In addition to $400k for medical school, you have to add another $200k at least for undergrad. It is too much of a burden for people in the middle (donut hole families), no matter how passionate they are about the medicine or serving the community. It is impractical. So, the demand will continue to decline among this group and it is not a small group.

Doesn't it need to begin to decline before it can continue to do so?

Wall Street, business and IT have been attracting some of the best and the brightest since at least the 1980s ("greed is good"), but this has not prevented med schools from attracting record numbers of applications almost every single year, from all demographic groups, including your so-called donut hole. Government loans are available for the full COA for everyone, including those who do not receive merit or need-based aid, and salaries are high enough to service any level of debt, even $400K+.

So, no one who is good enough, and passionate enough, is priced out, and the rewards still far exceed the costs for those who are interested, even if medicine is not quite as financially attractive as it was in the past. Wall Street, etc. was always more attractive to those primarily motivated by money. Nothing new there, but that hasn't put even a little dent in how competitive it is to get into a US medical school, MD or DO, and that's in spite of there now being a record number of seats available each year.

At some point things might very well change, but that point is nowhere in sight, in spite of the fear of the unknown that is at the heart of this thread. Medicine has never been for those who are allergic to hard work or have no interest in delayed gratification. But, for those properly motivated, it has been a guaranteed ticket to the upper middle class and beyond forever, due to the seemingly insatiable need for doctors as the population ages. It is, in fact, the "topmost attraction" for all of the brightest who apply, who are undoubtedly among the brightest produced by the American education system each year.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Even for undergrad, the ORM kids with 3.9+ and 1500+ find it hard to get into our state university, they cannot attend private or OOS public schools.

This is pretty hard to believe. Even Umich, UVA, Berkeley, UCLA, UNC aren’t that hard to get into for undergrad. These people must be lying about their stats or something.

 

[deleted1136042]

This is pretty hard to believe. Even Umich, UVA, Berkeley, UCLA, UNC aren’t that hard to get into for undergrad. These people must be lying about their stats or something.

It's really not that hard to believe. I'm an ORM with 3.9/1500+ SAT who will be attending Berkeley in the fall, and I know many people of my demographic with similar or higher stats who have matriculated at lesser ranked universities this past application cycle. UCLA in particular has increased enrollment for individuals identifying with a traditionally underserved background which consequently lowers the amount of spots available for ORMs. It really is not surprising when "high stat" ORMs (which btw ORMs with 3.9/1500 SAT are considered mid these days for T20 admissions) are denied admission from their flagship campus.

 

[deleted1139339]

This is pretty hard to believe. Even Umich, UVA, Berkeley, UCLA, UNC aren’t that hard to get into for undergrad. These people must be lying about their stats or something.

I know several people from high school who were ORMs with 3.9+ gpa and a 35 ACT score who were rejected from Berkeley. Getting into schools like Berkeley, UMich, UVA, UT Austin, UCLA, UNC isn’t that easy for ORMs. Especially when we are a dime a dozen who pandering to adcoms looking for “uniqueness”.

 

[deleted1139339]

The change in dynamics is already underway. Medicine is not the topmost attraction anymore among the brightest students. They head to Wall Street, business or IT.

The demand will remain the same among the low income students who qualify for need based aid and ultra rich because the cost is no barrier to them. In addition to $400k for medical school, you have to add another $200k at least for undergrad. It is too much of a burden for people in the middle (donut hole families), no matter how passionate they are about the medicine or serving the community. It is impractical. So, the demand will continue to decline among this group and it is not a small group. The competition to get into state medical schools will become even more intense because of the cost benefit. Even for undergrad, the ORM kids with 3.9+ and 1500+ find it hard to get into our state university, they cannot attend private or OOS public schools.

We will end up importing H1B doctors from foreign countries pretty soon.

Yes. I know people in my own family who left medicine (after going through med school) for business consulting.

Neither choice is necessarily wrong. It’s just a matter of what you want from life.

For me, I actually chose med so I can work in developing nations through organizations like Partners in Health or Doctors w/o Borders. My parents left the motherland because of inadequate infrastructure for healthcare, especially when it comes to public health and environmental factors. As in bad roads and smog and sewage and EMS vehicles being unable to navigate streets (I was once stuck for two hours in Bangalore traffic right next to an ambulance that had a patient inside…my soul died a little that night).

My parents didn’t want me nor my sister to grow up breathing polluted air or getting into a motorcycle accident due to unsafe roads in a country that is going to be hit HARD by climate change (as in entire villages along the Eastern seaboard of India will be underwater). So my goal is to work at the intersection of healthcare and urban planning to build healthy and sustainable cities.

I love the story of John Snow and the water pump, how fixing a single unclean water source saved so many lives from cholera. I aspire to do good like he did. In fact, I worked on a GIS research project with an economist and love seeing how disease or crime or poverty maps out from a birds-eye view.

But though I thought about becoming an civil/environmental engineer for a long time, I decided on medicine because I like interacting and listening to people. I like the idea of working directly in the clinic with patients who have lead poisoning or in the ER with victims of a car accident due to unsafe roads.

And maybe this means I’ll work for a lower salary since I won’t be living in the U.S. making 300k as a dermatologist in the suburbs with a Lexus/Tesla SUV, a 10k sft mansion, multiple rental properties, and passive income. But I know what I want to do with my life.

 

[senecca]

This is pretty hard to believe. Even Umich, UVA, Berkeley, UCLA, UNC aren’t that hard to get into for undergrad. These people must be lying about their stats or something.

I personally know four of them. Two students from our neighboring state applied with 4.0 and 1550, one was offered only for the spring term and other was declined biology major she wanted and offered “unassigned”. The dean of admissions announced publicly four years ago that the yield rate was unprecedented and they had to come up with “make up” dorms to accommodate the students, they didn’t want to turn them away after offering acceptances. As I said earlier, the students from the middle of the spectrum is are getting priced out of private and OOS public schools. It is the new normal. The craziest thing is that our flagship public university is not even close to UMich, Berkeley or UCLA but a great university. It is getting rough out there.

 

[mike-sheree]

As it concerns med school admission. the undergrad “biggies” are not necessary AT ALL and provide a minimal edge AT BEST, all else being equal.

 

[mike-sheree]

Knightdoc, the two most operative words in your last post are “ delayed gratification “.

 

[senecca]

UCLA in particular has increased enrollment for individuals identifying with a traditionally underserved background which consequently lowers the amount of spots available for ORMs

Not only UCLA, but everywhere. I wanted to make this point but decided not to, because people get offended and don’t want to acknowledge it. It is the truth but it is bitter in all public forums .

I have been following the published admission statistics of our only one public university medical school in our state, for six years. For the first four years, the demographic splits of admitted students were exactly the same, 50% white, 40% Asian American, 5% black and 5% Hispanic with very little variation between years , almost identical actually . But, two years back it suddenly changed to 30% Asian and 15% black. The other two demographics remained the same. Last year, it was ditto. This year I am expecting the same. People say “ stats are not everything..”, “we evaluate every applicant holistically “ etc. Unfortunately I don’t believe them, the number of spots for every demographic is predetermined well ahead, IMO. The evaluation process is tailored to accommodate it. That’s all.

 

[Choсolate]

2 areas not discussed.

1. If you are a doctor or have a doctor as a close relative, you have potentially better access to doctors. If you call for an appointment, most doctors will squeeze you in if you have a serious problem.

2. If you are a doctor, you and your family will have a better idea on what medical issues are trivial and what are serious. Every doctor has probably seen patients who are overly concerned about nothing and not concerned about some things that they should be worried about.

A doctor can also potentially monitor a close relative's health when they are in the hospital. Not being a helicopter parent/relative but being able to recognize if there is some shortfall in care. It does happen. Hospitals, especially support staff, do make mistakes though it's much worse in nursing homes.

In other words, as a doctor, you have specialized knowledge, almost keys to the kingdom, even to fields that are not your specialty.

You have adequately formalized my primary reasons about why I want to become a doctor but that have been difficult to put a finger to until now. It is of vital importance to me that my career is something that not only benefits society, but that has a trickle down effect on my family as well. I want to be useful in all situations, which culminates in the position where I am being able to provide medical care/advice to my family and friends. No other career comes close to having the "golden goose" as being a physician. Despite the concerns stated above about the ever increasing reasons why people should not go into medical school, it is for reasons like this that at least partially explain why people run into a profession that may be creating more and more headaches for those who do go to medical school as opposed to in the past.

 

[mike-sheree]

Not only UCLA, but everywhere. I wanted to make this point but decided not to, because people get offended and don’t want to acknowledge it. It is the truth but it is bitter in all public forums .

I have been following the published admission statistics of our only one public university medical school in our state, for six years. For the first four years, the demographic splits of admitted students were exactly the same, 50% white, 40% Asian American, 5% black and 5% Hispanic with very little variation between years , almost identical actually . But, two years back it suddenly changed to 30% Asian and 15% black. The other two demographics remained the same. Last year, it was ditto. This year I am expecting the same. People say “ stats are not everything..”, “we evaluate every applicant holistically “ etc. Unfortunately I don’t believe them, the number of spots for every demographic is predetermined well ahead, IMO. The evaluation process is tailored to accommodate it. That’s all.

Doh! Ray Charles could see this; but would get canceled if he said anything.

 

[appl2023]

I have been following the published admission statistics of our only one public university medical school in our state, for six years. For the first four years, the demographic splits of admitted students were exactly the same, 50% white, 40% Asian American, 5% black and 5% Hispanic with very little variation between years , almost identical actually . But, two years back it suddenly changed to 30% Asian and 15% black. The other two demographics remained the same. Last year, it was ditto. This year I am expecting the same. People say “ stats are not everything..”, “we evaluate every applicant holistically “ etc. Unfortunately I don’t believe them, the number of spots for every demographic is predetermined well ahead, IMO. The evaluation process is tailored to accommodate it. That’s all.

Let me guess, little to no change in the % of white students?

 

[gyngyn]

This has gone way off topic.
If someone wants to start a thread with a different focus, please put it in the forum dedicated to that purpose.
Closing