Besides Neurosurgery, which specialties have both lay and professional prestige?

[username456789]

Every time I complained my first specialty (obgyn), I would be told by a layperson, "why don't you go into dermatology?" As if you can just walk into the hospital and declare yourself ready to become a dermatologist. Or, I am reminded by this guy whose sister is a dermatologist that she has the best life (implying that I am a fool going into obygn-sad but kind of true!)

Least prestige among laypeople and physicians: psychiatry-most people think I am going to become a psychologist. I don't really care though.

At the end of the day, you've gotta do what works for you. I'm a guy who probably best fits the "ortho" stereotype (tall, jock, blah blah), and I think a lot of my family members and my fiancee's family members think it an odd fit that I chose dermatology. They are largely unaware of the difficulty to obtain a spot in a derm residency despite what I tell them (they think "surgery" in a generic sense is by far the most difficult "specialty" to get into).

But you know what? Their perceptions aren't what are going to dictate the rest of your life. When the phone rings at 3am and there's a ruptured AAA you have to rush to, it's not your father in law's problem.

All that said, my family very much respects what I've chosen, they just don't appreciate the hard work that's been required to get there. And that's ok with me.

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[lightfire22000]

Radiology!

jk...

Someone once asked me if you needed a bachelors degree to be radiologist. She was shocked to find out that radiologists are doctors.

I've heard of people going to medical school without a bachelor's degree, but I've never known anyone who's done this.

 

[phltz]

Family medicine docs in rural/remote areas seem to get a lot of credit from pretty much everyone. Double points if they're working on an Indian reservation, small island, or somewhere that can only be reached by turboprop. In a similar vein, I know several people who have worked as doctors for the Peace Corps. That pretty much insta-impresses everyone.

 

[remote]

the truth is that lay pple will only come to think of certain fields as prestigious when they or their loved ones need someone in that field. for example,

ENT - most pple don't know what they do. but i promise you they will if they are diagnosed with thyroid/tongue/larygneal cancer.

urology - lots of lay pple laugh if you tell them you're thinking of urology b/c they don't know what urologists are or do. but they won't be laughing when they're writing in pain with a kidney stone or are suddenly diagnosed with kidney/bladder cancer. etc...

GI - same thing here, it suddenly becomes prestigious when they need to do an emergent endoscopy to stop an upper GI bleed in a loved one...

i could go on and on...but that's the gist. certain fields are not declared "prestigious" in the lay community mainly due to ignorance and just not knowing what fields are all about and what fields do. once you need such a doctor, it will be prestigious.

 

[FunnyCurrent]

Who gives a **** what muggles think

 

[FunnyCurrent]

the truth is that lay pple will only come to think of certain fields as prestigious when they or their loved ones need someone in that field. for example,

ENT - most pple don't know what they do. but i promise you they will if they are diagnosed with thyroid/tongue/larygneal cancer.

urology - lots of lay pple laugh if you tell them you're thinking of urology b/c they don't know what urologists are or do. but they won't be laughing when they're writing in pain with a kidney stone or are suddenly diagnosed with kidney/bladder cancer. etc...

GI - same thing here, it suddenly becomes prestigious when they need to do an emergent endoscopy to stop an upper GI bleed in a loved one...

i could go on and on...but that's the gist. certain fields are not declared "prestigious" in the lay community mainly due to ignorance and just not knowing what fields are all about and what fields do. once you need such a doctor, it will be prestigious.

Absolutely!!!

Also, the people who aren't typically respectful (ie the people who you(the op) think will suddenly start bowing down once you're a surgeon) are still going to be disrespectful until they get sick. They will use every matter of rationalization to address their underlying insecurity. For example:

• Pssh, who would want to be a doctor, at least I don't have to work all the time.
• Pssh, doctors don't even make that much money any more
• Pssh, doing business or becoming a stock broker earns more money. (Someone actually told me this after I had been obfuscating about what I study so as to avoid saying I am a medical student. I won't lie however if someone asks directly if I study medicine and they asked. But really people, are you so insecure).
• Pssh,

 

[CaptainSSO]

Pssh, doing business or becoming a stock broker earns more money. (Someone
actually told me this after I had been obfuscating about what I study so as to
avoid saying I am a medical student. I won't lie however if someone asks
directly if I study medicine and they asked. But really people, are you so
insecure).

Really? I've only ever had the opposite happen--people will sometimes say, "Oh, you should do x or y because they make the most money, are happiest, etc."

It could be, and this is just a guess, that people are annoyed when you obfuscate. Like you're sparing them by not telling them what you do, or else they'll feel bad about themselves. It can lead to the exact opposite of your intentions, even though your motives aren't malicious.

 

[VisionaryTics]

It could be, and this is just a guess, that people are annoyed when you obfuscate. Like you're sparing them by not telling them what you do, or else they'll feel bad about themselves. It can lead to the exact opposite of your intentions, even though your motives aren't malicious.

"Where did you go to undergrad?"
"Boston."

 

[CaptainSSO]

"Where did you go to undergrad?"
"Boston."

Hahah, yea exactly.

 

[Geekchick921]

Who gives a **** what muggles think

I don't know why this made me laugh SO hard but it did.

It could be, and this is just a guess, that people are annoyed when you obfuscate. Like you're sparing them by not telling them what you do, or else they'll feel bad about themselves. It can lead to the exact opposite of your intentions, even though your motives aren't malicious.

If someone was going to be all secretive to me about what they do, I'd be seriously disappointed with 'I'm a medical student' finally being the answer. I thought you were going to be a spy...

 

[deleted103644]

 

[FunnyCurrent]

"Where did you go to undergrad?"
"Boston."

Nah I went to school back east

 

[diagonal]

In reference to the post above, this is how to explain the difference between a psychiatrist and a psychologist.

That usually clears things up.

 

[mjl1717]

Real funny!

 

[docnotsopc]

get over yourself. people enter medicine for many reasons.

Doesnt change the fact that people are doing society is a disservice. How do you not see the problem in OPs post?

Seriously, dude, shut up. Get off your high horse. Some people want money, some want prestige--if it's not you, then why give a rat's ass?

What's that rule everyone throws around here, Burnett's Law?

Get off my high horse? What the **** are you even talking about??? Someone going into medicine for strictly money and prestige IS a problem. If you dont see a problem with that, you are morally ******ed

 

[RadicalRadon]

Doesnt change the fact that people are doing society is a disservice. How do you not see the problem in OPs post?



Get off my high horse? What the **** are you even talking about??? Someone going into medicine for strictly money and prestige IS a problem. If you dont see a problem with that, you are morally ******ed

I didn't realize you could be "morally ******ed" :roll eyes: I'd say a minimum of 15-20% of any class does it for the money and prestige. At the top schools, this is actually significantly higher (reflected in the higher number of people who leave medicine for consulting after med school or even the way higher number of derm/lifestyle specialties). In fact, I put that number as a gross underestimate. Look at your classmates, then tell me how many would be there if physicians were considered a common middle class job with a 70-80k salary. Not very many. I can promise you most of the brightest kids in your class would be leaving for finance, consulting, engineering, or management jobs.

Who cares what someone's justification is as long as they're good? No one. Only the morality police like you. $ and Prestige are super important. Deal with it.

Edit: I see that you're a DO student. Scratch my comment about looking around at your classmates. I don't mean that as offensive, just that there's a different class composition. The level of talent is dramatically different between any of the top 25 allopathic schools and the very best DO schools.

 

[Wheatley]

Someone going into medicine for strictly money and prestige IS a problem.

Nah this is wrong. What are you gonna do about it?

 

[CassieBagley]

I didn't realize you could be "morally ******ed" :roll eyes: I'd say a minimum of 15-20% of any class does it for the money and prestige. At the top schools, this is actually significantly higher (reflected in the higher number of people who leave medicine for consulting after med school or even the way higher number of derm/lifestyle specialties). In fact, I put that number as a gross underestimate. Look at your classmates, then tell me how many would be there if physicians were considered a common middle class job with a 70-80k salary. Not very many. I can promise you most of the brightest kids in your class would be leaving for finance, consulting, engineering, or management jobs.

Who cares what someone's justification is as long as they're good? No one. Only the morality police like you. $ and Prestige are super important. Deal with it.

Edit: I see that you're a DO student. Scratch my comment about looking around at your classmates. I don't mean that as offensive, just that there's a different class composition. The level of talent is dramatically different between any of the top 25 allopathic schools and the very best DO schools.

As much as I hate to admit it, I agree. Although money & prestige shouldn't be motivators to get competitive specialties (or go into medicine altogether), they fact of the matter is that they indeed are. Why limit yourself to a lower salary when you can earn a higher salary practicing a different subset of medicine? We can't deny the utility of money in the US- pay your for nice house, you're wife's car, you're kids college tuition, etc. The end result is the same- you help people, whether you're a dermatologist or an internist. Further, prestige, or a lack their of, interplays with significant psychosocial factors. Many Americans subscribe to the American dream of working hard to become successful. In medicine, this success is often categorized by competitive specialties that are difficult to obtain. The prestige comes in knowing that you yourself were about to meet that challenge and that everyone else around you recognizes it. I am not condoning the notion that people should enter medicine or high specialties for prestige, but we can't pretend like it doesn't affect your everyday life. Self-esteem and image are very fragile to some people, and having a higher job is something that helps them preserve their sense of success. If it's in the name of helping people, who cares? To each his own. Money and prestige alone are powerful enough to drive people to these higher specialties, just as they are powerful enough to drive people into corruption, crime or abuse. However, at the end of the day, that dermatologist removed a lot of potential skin cancers and that neurosurgeon reduced a lot of ICP, and that's all that matters. Let the gunners have their money and prestige.

 

[neusu]

Speaking from experience, the average lay person on the street is not terribly impressed that you're a neurosurgeon.

Patients in the hospital tend to be impressed or, at least, respectful towards you because they value your time.

 

[copes]

Who gives a **** what muggles think

 

[duckie99]

Speaking from experience, the average lay person on the street is not terribly impressed that you're a neurosurgeon.

Patients in the hospital tend to be impressed or, at least, respectful towards you because they value your time.

from my experience people who work in the hospital generally are not impressed with what specialty you are in. Surgeons walk around like they own the place but none of us sit and whisper and look on in awe of how cool they [think they] are...

 

[todds]

I didn't realize you could be "morally ******ed" :roll eyes: I'd say a minimum of 15-20% of any class does it for the money and prestige. At the top schools, this is actually significantly higher (reflected in the higher number of people who leave medicine for consulting after med school or even the way higher number of derm/lifestyle specialties). In fact, I put that number as a gross underestimate. Look at your classmates, then tell me how many would be there if physicians were considered a common middle class job with a 70-80k salary. Not very many. I can promise you most of the brightest kids in your class would be leaving for finance, consulting, engineering, or management jobs.

Who cares what someone's justification is as long as they're good? No one. Only the morality police like you. $ and Prestige are super important. Deal with it.

Edit: I see that you're a DO student. Scratch my comment about looking around at your classmates. I don't mean that as offensive, just that there's a different class composition. The level of talent is dramatically different between any of the top 25 allopathic schools and the very best DO schools.

Bolded is false. Look at the match lists for places like Harvard, Hopkins, Penn. Tons of people going into low paying specialties like Pediatrics. Majority of the people in these schools going into Internal Medicine. Only a couple from Harvard went into consulting.

In fact, at top schools I find that they are LESS worried about money...More about prestige though... Many people look down upon you if you dont work hard and look like you're lazy. Many people from top schools want to do academics even though its significantly less money. Lots of people stay at Harvard, UCSF as professors even though they could easily go into PP and make 3x what they do as an academic

 

[RadicalRadon]

Bolded is false. Look at the match lists for places like Harvard, Hopkins, Penn. Tons of people going into low paying specialties like Pediatrics. Majority of the people in these schools going into Internal Medicine. Only a couple from Harvard went into consulting.

In fact, at top schools I find that they are LESS worried about money...More about prestige though... Many people look down upon you if you dont work hard and look like you're lazy. Many people from top schools want to do academics even though its significantly less money. Lots of people stay at Harvard, UCSF as professors even though they could easily go into PP and make 3x what they do as an academic

Most of those folks don't just do IM or Peds. They subspecialize. My point is that a significant portion of the class cares about money and prestige at the elites. I'm not saying everyone does, obviously. For example, at HMS, ~50 of the rising fourth years applied for an MBA at HBS and ~25 were accepted. That's a huge portion of the class interested in the money side of things. Business schools encourage completing a residency. Most MD/MBAs do residency although some leave medicine altogether since they want to and can. That's not to say there aren't a ton of die hard academics there too... There are.

 

[thesauce]

From what I've seen with medical specialties, it is usually hard to have both lay and professional prestige.

For example, EM Physicians have lots of lay prestige because of dramas like ER and documentaries like Untold Stories of the ER. But amongst medical professionals, EM docs are basically seen as glorified triage nurses.

On the flip side, Radiation Oncologists have lots of professional prestige because of the highly intellectual and tech-savvy nature of their work and emphasis on cutting edge research. But they are a virtual unknown amongst the lay people. One Radonc resident I know says that when he tells people that he's a Radiation Oncologist they think he's a radiation tech or something.

The only specialty that I see which has both lay and professional prestige/respect is Neurosurgery. Are there any others?

Neither the lay public or other docs know what we do

 

[RadicalRadon]

Neither the lay public or other docs know what we do

Lol, you guys draw circles on pictures an then tell physicists to figure out how to deliver the dose ad have techs carry it out! On non-planning days, it's all pretty quick clinic appointments. Pretty sweet gig with unbeatable hours. I love the M-F dose protocols! Genius lol. I kid, I kid... It's a fun field but there is absolutely no diagnosis. It's all about reciting large clinical trial data and knowing the details and application of said studies.

 

[JackShephard MD]

Are you really arguing over what % of students are in medicine for money and prestige?

Wow. I have no idea how you even come up with your estimates.

 

[circulus vitios]

Get off my high horse? What the **** are you even talking about??? Someone going into medicine for strictly money and prestige IS a problem. If you dont see a problem with that, you are morally ******ed

How crude and inarticulate.

 

[RadicalRadon]

Are you really arguing over what % of students are in medicine for money and prestige?

Wow. I have no idea how you even come up with your estimates.

Talking to classmates.

 

[thesauce]

Lol, you guys draw circles on pictures an then tell physicists to figure out how to deliver the dose and have techs carry it out!

Yep!

On non-planning days, it's all pretty quick clinic appointments. Pretty sweet gig with unbeatable hours.

I commonly spend an hour or more with my consults because I can. This is one of the best things about the specialty - lots of time per patient.

I love the M-F dose protocols! Genius lol. I kid, I kid...

I'm partial to the single fraction therapies

It's a fun field but there is absolutely no diagnosis. It's all about reciting large clinical trial data and knowing the details and application of said studies.

You do commonly have to diagnose radiation, chemo, and surgery complications which are not always as straight-forward as you might expect. You'd be amazed at how often "radiation complication" is the waste-basket diagnosis for something that has another treatable etiology.

 

[JackShephard MD]

Talking to classmates.

Could you share a piece of this conversation.

You: So why do you want to be a doctor?
Classmate: Prestige and money.

I didn't realize people were so openly superficial. Most people I know at least attempt to hide their worst qualities.

 

[deleted103644]

Could you share a piece of this conversation.

You: So why do you want to be a doctor?
Classmate: Prestige and money.

I didn't realize people were so openly superficial. Most people I know at least attempt to hide their worst qualities.

Haha, anyone going into medicine for prestige will be disappointed.

The money is good, but it's attractive less for the income than for the lack of variance in it.

Someone with skill and higher risk tolerance could do much better.

 

[RadicalRadon]

Could you share a piece of this conversation.

You: So why do you want to be a doctor?
Classmate: Prestige and money.

I didn't realize people were so openly superficial. Most people I know at least attempt to hide their worst qualities.

You'd be surprised. I bet you're still pre-clinical. People may delude themselves before getting there but motivations may be revealed pretty quickly when you discover you're a bored scut monkey.

I also think it's very possible to enjoy studying medicine but hate it in practice. The only thing keeping you there is $ and to lesser extent prestige.

 

[Roguelyn]

The days of physicians being in a trustworthy and prestigious position have passed. More and more we are just another service industry.

 

[KinasePro]

The days of physicians being in a trustworthy and prestigious position have passed. More and more we are just another service industry.

This is absolutely true. Some older generations (e.g. your grandmother) may still consider it a prestigious career, but our non-medical peers largely consider us to be auto-mechanics of the human body.

I had a career in research before coming back to medical school, and my coworkers frequently discouraged me from bothering with medicine, because a) uncertain reimbursement and b) "doctors are stupid" (100% serious, I heard this multiple times).

It's happening to all professional careers though, no one considers dentists or lawyers to be prestigious, either.

 

[RadicalRadon]

This is absolutely true. Some older generations (e.g. your grandmother) may still consider it a prestigious career, but our non-medical peers largely consider us to be auto-mechanics of the human body.

I had a career in research before coming back to medical school, and my coworkers frequently discouraged me from bothering with medicine, because a) uncertain reimbursement and b) "doctors are stupid" (100% serious, I heard this multiple times).

I definitely agree. Lay people don't respect physicians that much these days. I still think it is kinda there for surgeons but not really medicine docs. Just my observation.

Again though, that quote was perfect. "who gives a **** what muggles think"

 

[todds]

The days of physicians being in a trustworthy and prestigious position have passed. More and more we are just another service industry.

I think this is more of a generational thing. People in younger generations just don't respect letters like older generations did.

"MD" might give you some respect, but not a ton with the new generation, whereas it means a lot to parents for example. These days, in order to be respected by the new generations, you have to earn it...I think thats a good thing.

You have to at least give off the impression that you know what you are doing, build confidence in the patient and treat them well, and then you will be respected. You cannot nowadays come in your white coat with MD on it and expect to be awed by your patient unless they are >65 years old. However, in my experience they will appreciate and respect you a lot if you are extremely confident with them yet be polite and answer questions.

 

[JackShephard MD]

Well, it's probably a good thing. That way all the people who lied in their personal statements and are here for prestige/money will reap what they've sown.

 

[RadicalRadon]

Well, it's probably a good thing. That way all the people who lied in their personal statements and are here for prestige/money will reap what they've sown.

Any prominent field needs people like this. It's idiotic to think that Harvard rad onc chair (an example of one of the most pompous people I've ever met) is selflessly pursuing this career for his patients. Many of the smartest, most prominent people in a field are 100% motivated by prestige. Why the hell else do people care so much about authorship or patents? You're being naive if you think people should only be in medicine to be sacrificial warriors who live and die for their patients. People need their ego stroked and pocket lined. It's a fact and it's true in medicine, just like its true in business, law, engineering, whatever.

That said, these folks generally pick lifestyle specialties and lead incredibly happy and fulfilling lives.

 

[thesauce]

Any prominent field needs people like this. It's idiotic to think that Harvard rad onc chair (an example of one of the most pompous people I've ever met) is selflessly pursuing this career for his patients . Many of the smartest, most prominent people in a field are 100% motivated by prestige. Why the hell else do people care so much about authorship or patents? You're being naive if you think people should only be in medicine to be sacrificial warriors who live and die for their patients. People need their ego stroked and pocket lined. It's a fact and it's true in medicine, just like its true in business, law, engineering, whatever.

That said, these folks generally pick lifestyle specialties and lead incredibly happy and fulfilling lives.

Harris or Loeffler?

 

[CassieBagley]

Any prominent field needs people like this. It's idiotic to think that Harvard rad onc chair (an example of one of the most pompous people I've ever met) is selflessly pursuing this career for his patients. Many of the smartest, most prominent people in a field are 100% motivated by prestige. Why the hell else do people care so much about authorship or patents? You're being naive if you think people should only be in medicine to be sacrificial warriors who live and die for their patients. People need their ego stroked and pocket lined. It's a fact and it's true in medicine, just like its true in business, law, engineering, whatever.

That said, these folks generally pick lifestyle specialties and lead incredibly happy and fulfilling lives.

I agree with everything you've said except that last statement. I think that people who need prestige/money more so than others are those with fragile self esteem. As a result, they constantly seek higher and higher status: more money, more titles, more patents, etc. The need society to recognize their achievement through their title and their need money as an objective measure of their success. For them, they will never be satisfied with their sense of success b/c you can always reach a higher position. Most studies on well-being suggest the money has an effect on happiness only up until you can support yourself financially. Anything beyond that is luxury but not necessary going to enhance happiness. Fulfillment, as I've alluded to before, is more relative to self-esteem and personal satisfaction. I am guessing that some lifestyle specialists still are not satisfied with their money/prestige. Some, not all.

 

[RadicalRadon]

I agree with everything you've said except that last statement. I think that people who need prestige/money more so than others are those with fragile self esteem. As a result, they constantly seek higher and higher status: more money, more titles, more patents, etc. The need society to recognize their achievement through their title and their need money as an objective measure of their success. For them, they will never be satisfied with their sense of success b/c you can always reach a higher position. Most studies on well-being suggest the money has an effect on happiness only up until you can support yourself financially. Anything beyond that is luxury but not necessary going to enhance happiness. Fulfillment, as I've alluded to before, is more relative to self-esteem and personal satisfaction. I am guessing that some lifestyle specialists still are not satisfied with their money/prestige. Some, not all.

Haha, I agree. You're completely right. I wish that last sentence were true though!

 

[RadicalRadon]

Harris or Loeffler?

My boy Jay. Lol

 

[thesauce]

My boy Jay. Lol

They are both named Jay

 

[RadicalRadon]

They are both named Jay

Lol really? Loeffler

 

[Dr. USMLE]

Lol really? Loeffler

Haha...many of the attendings I've met at HMS have been "adult gunners." At no other institution are so many professors waiting by the phone in bated breath for a nobel.

 

[JackShephard MD]

Any prominent field needs people like this. It's idiotic to think that Harvard rad onc chair (an example of one of the most pompous people I've ever met) is selflessly pursuing this career for his patients. Many of the smartest, most prominent people in a field are 100% motivated by prestige. Why the hell else do people care so much about authorship or patents? You're being naive if you think people should only be in medicine to be sacrificial warriors who live and die for their patients. People need their ego stroked and pocket lined. It's a fact and it's true in medicine, just like its true in business, law, engineering, whatever.

That said, these folks generally pick lifestyle specialties and lead incredibly happy and fulfilling lives.

You extrapolate so much from my statements...

I never said people should "only be in medicine to be sacrificial warriors who live and die for their patients." Straw man arguments abound on SDN.

I think people should be in medicine for whatever reason they want. I also think enjoying what you do and trying to be of service to your patients are positive attributes. Obviously, we train many years and work hard, so we should be paid accordingly. That's my stance. Are you arguing being 100% motivated by prestige is a good thing?

I don't doubt that these people exist, my doubt was that people openly admit to being so superficial. It sounds like you go to Harvard, so it's possible you have a high concentration of prestige ****** amongst you.

 

[RadicalRadon]

Are you arguing being 100% motivated by prestige is a good thing?

I'm arguing that motivations are absolutely, unequivocally irrelevant. That's it.

 

[RadicalRadon]

Well, it's probably a good thing. That way all the people who lied in their personal statements and are here for prestige/money will reap what they've sown.

Also, I'd argue this is not a good thing at all, as you state. You want the smartest people in medicine to advance the field, regardless of motivations/personalities or whatever. As long as they aren't grossly immoral, the more human capital the better.

 

[RadicalRadon]

Haha...many of the attendings I've met at HMS have been "adult gunners." At no other institution are so many professors waiting by the phone in bated breath for a nobel.

It's totally true. They bring intensity to whatever they do. They aren't shy about looking down at others either or boosting their already inflated egos. Haha, whatever though, I've seen a ton of arrogant d-bags and met incredibly humble people... and both types have made incredible contributions to medicine. Either way, I'm glad that they chose this profession. Such a waste of talent if those people just leave for something like finance. It's unfortunate but (maybe most?) people do make career path decisions based on such "trivial" things like prestige and $.

 

[JackShephard MD]

I'm arguing that motivations are absolutely, unequivocally irrelevant. That's it.

This is where we can agree to disagree. You believe motivations are irrelevant and I believe why a person does a thing is more important than the end result.