Besides Neurosurgery, which specialties have both lay and professional prestige?

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JackShephard MD said:
This is where we can agree to disagree. You believe motivations are irrelevant and I believe why a person does a thing is more important than the end result.
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I don't believe in Hell, but I still think the road to it is paved with good intentions.

The end result matters more than the motivation.
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johnnydrama said:
I don't believe in Hell, but I still think the road to it is paved with good intentions.

The end result matters more than the motivation.
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I interpret that quote differently than you use it. I see it like this, you start out attempting to do something great (good intentions) but either get lazy or procrastinate and end up doing nothing or failing.

When I say motivations are more important, I mean this...

I'll use a simple example. A person wants to score high on Step 1 and be a leader in their field. They want a high score so they can beat all their other classmates and brag about how great they are after. Their motivation is to gain $ and prestige with their high score, of course none of that is of any value unless it's MORE money or MORE prestige than everyone else. Constantly they find others to dominate as they climb the ladder of success.

Another person sets out to have a high score so they can be a better physician and make a good contribution to the field and their patients. They learn all they can to be of service. It's not about being a martyr, as they will likely receive the same awards as anyone else doing a great job and being a leader in their field. There's no need to beat others, as their enjoyment comes from what they do and who they work with.

Both achieve their goals but I would argue that why was more important than the end result.
 
JackShephard MD said:
I interpret that quote differently than you use it. I see it like this, you start out attempting to do something great (good intentions) but either get lazy or procrastinate and end up doing nothing or failing.

When I say motivations are more important, I mean this...

I'll use a simple example. A person wants to score high on Step 1 and be a leader in their field. They want a high score so they can beat all their other classmates and brag about how great they are after. Their motivation is to gain $ and prestige with their high score, of course none of that is of any value unless it's MORE money or MORE prestige than everyone else. Constantly they find others to dominate as they climb the ladder of success.

Another person sets out to have a high score so they can be a better physician and make a good contribution to the field and their patients. They learn all they can to be of service. It's not about being a martyr, as they will likely receive the same awards as anyone else doing a great job and being a leader in their field. There's no need to beat others, as their enjoyment comes from what they do and who they work with.

Both achieve their goals but I would argue that why was more important than the end result.
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Whatever bro. In reality, you are judged on what you've done, not your motivations or intentions. That's a universal truth.
 
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What about comparing someone with good intentions who fails to someone with bad intentions who succeeds?

What if the lives of patients are at stake when we are talking about success and failure?

Personally, I'd prefer my family to be treated by the jerk who knows what he's doing than the well-intentioned hack.
 
JackShephard MD said:
Even the court of law disagrees with that "universal truth".
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You may be judged more harshly for intentionally killing someone than doing it accidentally, but both are punished more severely than not killing anyone.

I'm not going to say intentions don't matter at all, but results matter more.
 
MiracleforMD said:
This is why the human species is devolving. Sentiments like this naturally will lead to decrease in fitness.
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Fitness? That's for animals. Did fitness devolve after Japan had an earthquake and many foreigners provided aid and relief?

I hope you never have to interact with a severely disabled human being, they will never have the level of fitness of you or your friends but they still are human and valuable.

Anyway, we can end this discussion. I respect your opinions even though we disagree. And I wish you success in your careers.
 
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johnnydrama said:
What about comparing someone with good intentions who fails to someone with bad intentions who succeeds?
.
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There's a thread about this. Would you rather be the gunner who honors all his classes and is despised by everyone or honor half those courses without compromising your integrity? Would you prefer to gun down your classmates if it ensured you more honors?

These scenarios of the super competent a*hole and the incompetent virtuous saint don't mirror reality IMO. I believe once you become board certified you will be a competent physician. Working hard and caring about your patients will maintain that competency. It's more likely a greedy, self-centered person that will compromise his patient's health for selfish gain than a person who deeply cares and aims to be of service.

At this level, if you complete the training, you likely aren't a hack.
 
johnnydrama said:
Personally, I'd prefer my family to be treated by the jerk who knows what he's doing than the well-intentioned hack.
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So true. I always thought it was interesting when I saw polls that placed House as the doctor that people would most want to be treated by, while JD came in third place or less.

My point, when the road gets tough you don't care why the doctors there you just want the best one available.
 
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JackShephard MD said:
Fitness? That's for animals. Did fitness devolve after Japan had an earthquake and many foreigners provided aid and relief?

I hope you never have to interact with a severely disabled human being, they will never have the level of fitness of you or your friends but they still are human and valuable.

Anyway, we can end this discussion. I respect your opinions even though we disagree. And I wish you success in your careers.
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Yeah, I know. See my previous post.
 
KinasePro said:
Still, the stereotype seems to be that the internists are the "smartest" docs in the hospital.
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But not the smartest in school.

Surgical subspecialites like ENT, plastics, neurosurg, urology and ortho are some of the smartest in medical sch. NRMP charting outcomes confirm this.
 
johnnydrama said:
12+medical+specialty+stereotypes+full+%2528new%2529.jpg
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*clink clink*
 
naus said:
But not the smartest in school.

Surgical subspecialites like ENT, plastics, neurosurg, urology and ortho are some of the smartest in medical sch. NRMP charting outcomes confirm this.
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Depends on your definition of "smart". There is an internal medicine program for everyone, yes. But the top internal medicine programs are just as difficult to get into as getting into a difficult specialty.
 
MiracleforMD said:
Haha, no just was kind of buzzed and had seen too many abject drains on society in the ER yesterday. Frustration post.
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Don't put that in your personal statement, kiddo :thumbup:
 
naus said:
But not the smartest in school.

Surgical subspecialites like ENT, plastics, neurosurg, urology and ortho are some of the smartest in medical sch. NRMP charting outcomes confirm this.
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This is kind of an apples and oranges comparison though. There are roughly 10x as many IM spots available as there are for a given surgical subspecialty, so there is much more room for average students to dilute the statistics.

For example, in 2011 15% of 2900 seniors applying to IM were AOA, which is 435 AOA members. There are more AOA IM applicants than there are available neurosurgery and ENT spots, combined. Point being that there is an ass load of top students going into IM each year. Its anecdotal, but more than half of our AOA inductees this year went into IM/peds, and none of them went into surgical subspecialties (though we matched plenty non-AOA students into those fields).
 
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I've never been a place where an IR won't come in for a legit procedure (No, you aren't going to get him to replace a PEG tube under fluoro on saturday at 2 AM). A large part of their practice is fixing other docs errors/intervening when nobody else will try. That's enough to earn some respect IMO
 
cowme said:
I've never been a place where an IR won't come in for a legit procedure (No, you aren't going to get him to replace a PEG tube under fluoro on saturday at 2 AM). A large part of their practice is fixing other docs errors/intervening when nobody else will try. That's enough to earn some respect IMO
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Obviously if someone needs something embolized or they will bleed out they'll come in anytime, but getting something non-critical done within a reasonable timeframe is often like pulling teeth.
 
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Sheldor said:
So true. I always thought it was interesting when I saw polls that placed House as the doctor that people would most want to be treated by, while JD came in third place or less.

My point, when the road gets tough you don't care why the doctors there you just want the best one available.
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The further along in school I get, the more I realize that House sucks as a doctor.
 
johnnydrama said:
Obviously if someone needs something embolized or they will bleed out they'll come in anytime, but getting something non-critical done within a reasonable timeframe is often like pulling teeth.
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The same Is true of any specialty where attendings take call from home. You think a neurosurgeon is going to come into the hospital on his day off to consult a patient with back pain when the MRI is normal?
 
cowme said:
The same Is true of any specialty where attendings take call from home. You think a neurosurgeon is going to come into the hospital on his day off to consult a patient with back pain when the MRI is normal?
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I'm not talking about days off. I'm talking about 2 PM on a Tuesday. The work ethic of many IR docs is far from that of a neurosurgeon (although obviously there are exceptions - including all of NIR, which basically is neurosurgery).
 
Must be your hospital. Every place I've ever worked, IR will still do menial procedures like piccs even if you ask for one at 455
 
Great inspiring neurosurgery story:

[YOUTUBE]mSt1m4NFUl8[/YOUTUBE]
 
KinasePro said:
I've never heard anyone accuse an orthopod of being lazy. The jokes are aimed pretty explicitly at their intellect. I've even heard nurses take jabs at the ortho service.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still very interested in the specialty and don't really care about peer prestige. Just calling it like it is.
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In the community orthopods get a ton of respect from people. Their patients often like them because they are fairly laid back and generally the procedures go quite well. Also, the title "surgeon" in general garners respect from lay people.
 
Ignatius M.D. said:
In the community orthopods get a ton of respect from people. Their patients often like them because they are fairly laid back and generally the procedures go quite well. Also, the title "surgeon" in general garners respect from lay people.
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12-medical-specialty-stereotypes-full-new.jpg
 
Ignatius M.D. said:
In the community orthopods get a ton of respect from people. Their patients often like them because they are fairly laid back and generally the procedures go quite well. Also, the title "surgeon" in general garners respect from lay people.
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Thread is about peer respect though, not "the community." Practically every doctor has respect in the community.
 
KinasePro said:
Thread is about peer respect though, not "the community." Practically every doctor has respect in the community.
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Ah, I must have misunderstood, I apologize. I thought it was discussing both. I would agree more or less. I'm an incoming student, so I don't know much, but I have seen varying degrees of respect. I have heard people often talk about their primary providers as if they know more about medicine than them though. I nod and vacantly smile as they complain. Other than people mistaking anesthesiologists/radiologists for techs and nurses-I have witnessed both-I would say that each specialty brings with it a certain amount of prestige with lay people. Most lay people also think pathologists only inspect dead bodies.
 
Most lay prestige- emergency, any kind of surgeon (especially neuro)

Least lay prestige-psychiatrist (a lot of people confuse them with psychologists, people don't think they went to med school), family (seen as hacks), peds (hacks for kids), orthopeds (nobody knows what they do or that they went to med school)

My cousin is a radiation oncologist. I thought it meant that he worked as a radiation tech. So that might be in the "least lay prestige" list as well.
 
todds said:
I think this is more of a generational thing. People in younger generations just don't respect letters like older generations did.

"MD" might give you some respect, but not a ton with the new generation, whereas it means a lot to parents for example. These days, in order to be respected by the new generations, you have to earn it...I think thats a good thing.

You have to at least give off the impression that you know what you are doing, build confidence in the patient and treat them well, and then you will be respected. You cannot nowadays come in your white coat with MD on it and expect to be awed by your patient unless they are >65 years old. However, in my experience they will appreciate and respect you a lot if you are extremely confident with them yet be polite and answer questions.
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It's probably because people are more educated and can find a lot of the information (at least for diagnosing illnesses) online. Old people don't use the internet. And there's more widespread dissemination of medical malpractice when it happens, so doctors are seen as more incompetent in the media than they did back in the day. In the past, doctors were more incompetent and downright wrong than they are now, but people respected them more because they had no alternatives, like webmd. Not to mention, going to college back in the day was seen as a big deal. Now, going to college is considered the bare minimum.
 
cowme said:
big academic centers where there are always in house IR people, and small community hospitals where they work 9-5.
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What big academic centers have IR in house 24/7? I trained at a big academic center, but they would only do home call.
 
i think CCM has both lay and professional prestige. other doctors respect CCM for their medical knowledge and willingness to manage the sickest patients. i guess the lay person would be impressed if you told them you ran the ICU
 
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