Best notebook computer for med school?

[lalamoo]

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For all the older and wiser medical students -
(I hope that) I'm starting medical school this fall, and I'd like to get a notebook computer that will last for the four years. I've checked out the cnet reviews, but there doesn't seem to be a clear winner. 😕 I was wondering what you all think?

 

[themann]

At our school we all get IBM thinkpads. They are great computers... that will last. On the flip side they generally are pricey... so not necessarily the best bang for the buck. We have the T41 models and I really like the size (not too big or too small). I enjoy having my Thinkpad, but if it was my money (who am I kidding it is my money) I am not sure I would buy the same model (again pretty pricey). Let me know if you have any specific questions about the T41 Thinkpad... just thought I would offer my two cents.

 

[gerido]

For all the older and wiser medical students -
(I hope that) I'm starting medical school this fall, and I'd like to get a notebook computer that will last for the four years. I've checked out the cnet reviews, but there doesn't seem to be a clear winner. 😕 I was wondering what you all think?

Oh man, The past three days, Dell was having limited sale on the laptops -$750 of any $1500+ configured laptops. The 700m they have is pretty compact and sweet... Didn't know people on here looks for notebook, otherwise i would have posted. They might have it again sometime, but usually, the sale only last about an hour and you need coupon code. www.slickdeals.net if you want to track for future ones.

 

[TrojanDoctor]

I really like my apple powerbook. I have the 12 inch model and I love it. It has great battery life (4-5 hours) is really compact/light and has great connectivity. I am planning on using it through my four years of med school.

let me know if you have any questions.

 

[medstyle]

I have a t42 thinkpad and its really good. No other laptop is as solidly built. It's light and well engineered. Dells seem fairly cheap in comparison. I dunno how the pricing is, but i would recommend getting a durable laptop so it will last.

However, i guess if you can get a dell at have the price and the same size, that would be a better deal if price is really an issue, since computers get outdated fast anyway.

 

[Larsitron]

I'm a mac person myself and have happily used Powerbooks for my portable computing career. Apple's current line of iBooks and Powerbooks are solid and will last four years without feeling unsatisfyingly slow. Moreover, with the educational discount, they're not that bad of a deal (esp. the iBook line). The new OS coming out in a week is gonna rock and there really aren't any PC/Mac compatibility issues of note anymore.

However, if I had to use a PC laptop, I'd go with a Thinkpad. Dell, while cheap, is not the customer service leader they'd have you believe. I've worked for two years doing tech support for my university and have never had a pleasant Dell support experience. They may be available 24/7 but they're not particularly friendly or helpful, even for a huge client like a major state University. Plus the construction of the computer isn't that great either. The IBM thinkpad is zippy, and will have longevity and is overall a nifty little machine.

 

[DW3843]

I have a 15 inch Powerbook that I got at the end of last summer before starting 1st year, and I could not ask for more. It is perfect for everything.
My school requires the students to have a laptop and Dells are the recommended model. Everyone in my class has those pieces of junk.
Fortunately Apple is now very compatible with a PC environment, so don't let that scare you. I use PowerPoint, Word, and all that other stuff daily.

Also, this is the first Apple I have ever owned. I used one every once in a while at work in the months leading up to buying mine, but that's it.

The point is, Apple makes a solid product that's really easy to switch over to. If you're willing to throw down a few extra bucks I can assure you that it will be worth it in the long run.

 

[Larsitron]

I have a 15 inch Powerbook that I got at the end of last summer before starting 1st year, and I could not ask for more. It is perfect for everything.
My school requires the students to have a laptop and Dells are the recommended model. Everyone in my class has those pieces of junk.
Fortunately Apple is now very compatible with a PC environment, so don't let that scare you. I use PowerPoint, Word, and all that other stuff daily.

Also, this is the first Apple I have ever owned. I used one every once in a while at work in the months leading up to buying mine, but that's it.

The point is, Apple makes a solid product that's really easy to switch over to. If you're willing to throw down a few extra bucks I can assure you that it will be worth it in the long run.

Exactly.

 

[Iamajew]

i'm on the lookout for an apple right now. Are there any rumors of a powerbook/ibook upgrade which includes tiger out of the box? I'm assuming they're not going to sell panther-loaded computers once the new os breaks. Also, i'm debating between a 12 and 15'' powerbook...any suggestions? I like the backlit keyboard, but also like more batterly life and a lighter profile. thanks.

 

[YouDontKnowJack]

laptops these days are all the same. just go with the one that fits your budget, has a pretty big name, and has a sufficient number of ports that you can connect peripherals to.

computer speeds have really plateau'd lately. so whatever you get, it's pretty likely it will last for 4 years.

If you want lightweight and power efficiency, go with Centrino.


people always say one brand is better than the other.... etc etc.
But the truth is, they all use the same parts: intel motherboard, decent ram, same hard drives.
All the big computer makers buy their parts from the same parts manufacturers. Sure, Dell's look and feel cheap on the outside, but they run great. Even with the cheapness, it's really hard to break the shell.

ibm, dell, hp, gateway, toshiba..... none of them makes their own computer parts. they only assemble them together.

 

[Acherona]

i'm on the lookout for an apple right now. Are there any rumors of a powerbook/ibook upgrade which includes tiger out of the box? I'm assuming they're not going to sell panther-loaded computers once the new os breaks. Also, i'm debating between a 12 and 15'' powerbook...any suggestions? I like the backlit keyboard, but also like more batterly life and a lighter profile. thanks.

I called and asked about this and apparently if you get your ibook/powerbook now you can upgrade to tiger for $10 when it comes out. They wouldn't give me a date on when Tiger was coming out for laptops but it seemed like you would be able to order one in a month or so. Powerbook gets an educational discount of $200, ibook $100. You don't even need any proof of being a student, just tell them where you go to school.

I'm also debating 12'' v. 15''. Do people find the 15'' too heavy to carry around? Also do you think there is a perceptible difference in speed 1.5 v 1.67 GHz? Worth it to go for the 1.67?

 

[Larsitron]

For people considering a Mac, Tiger is out on April 29th. They'll start shipping in the box I'd imagine by mid may.

As far as 12" v 15": Go for the 15". The weight difference isn't that much and the extra screen real estate is awesome. The 17" is too wide and a little unwieldy in tight situations. The 12" was created because it paralleled the 12" iBook. The performance jump between 1.5GHz and 1.67GHz is unnoticeable to humans. Clock tests/benchmarks show different, but to the human user they're pretty much the same.

 

[Larsitron]

Addition: As far as battery life, the 12" is awesome. It's true. But if I dim my screen down I can get a little over 3.25 hours on a full charge. My job requires a lot of mobile computing/graphics/photo processing/video editing so I carry an extra battery around with me. But truth be told, I've never run into a situation where I ran out of juice.

 

[TrojanDoctor]

i have a 12 inch and really think you will be happy with either the 12 or 15. but if i had to do it over again, I would have gone with the 15 inch, purely for the bigger screen.

 

[acl3623]

my fiance has the 17" powerbook and it is sweet. im looking into getting the 15". i was looking at my schools website though and i know they dont really endorse getting macs, im wondering it anyone has ever run into a problem of getting stuff in class they couldnt use..

 

[fun8stuff]

I just bought the 700m from Dell's deal 2 weeks ago... it's awesome- i would highly recommend it. Basically- I have a nice desktop, so I went with the smallest, lightest, fastest, and longest battery life available. I have been getting about 5.5 hrs on 8cell battery (4cell is standard.. upgrading to 8cell isa must), 4.8 lbs, true color widescreen, and the 1.8 mhz centrino is faster than my 3 ghz p4 desktop (tested by super_pi program- tests how long it takes to calculate pi to 2 million digits).

my only gripe is that the USB ports are on the left and the power cord plugs in on the right (i am right handed...), but I solved this problem by getting a cordless mouse. The screen is kind of small on the small side, but it is perfectfor sitting in lectures because you can see over it without a problem, and fits nicely on lap in a car. I was told the keyboard (90% normal size) would take some getting used to, but I got used to it right away.

http://www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?newsID=2022

 

[Kazema]

I've got the 12" G4 Powerbook and my sister has a 15", I love mine and she loves hers. Really you can't go wrong - the screen for the 12" is quite large compared to other laptops its size, but the 15" is obviously bigger. Occasionally I'll encounter a web page that's too big for 1024x768 but that doesn't bother me too much. What I get in exchange is excellent battery life. ~4 hours without messing with screen brightness if I'm not using the DVD. And the iBook is even better.

Getting a Powerbook was one of the best decisions I've ever made in my life - no exaggeration, as sad as that may seem. Every time I sit down in front of it I think, "Wow. I have a Powerbook. That's so frickin' awesome." I'm just so happy whenever I use it. It's silly but it's true. Owning and using a Mac makes you happy. Can't wait for Tiger!

This is coming from someone who, when he started undergrad, despised Apple and made fun of Mac users at every opportunity. Now I'm a smug Mac guy who chuckles inside whenever I see a PC crippled by adware and/or just Windows .

If I had to recommend a PC laptop though I would recommend a Thinkpad. Unless you can't stand the little mouse-thingy in the keyboard, whatever that's called. Dells aren't too bad either, I just don't feel like they're as reliable as they once were.

 

[surge]

I have a Thinkpad X40 and I will never again buy anything other than an IBM. I used to have a Gateway and many (if not most) people around here have Dells, and they just dont compare.
I went for ultra mobility, and I easily get 6 hours out of my battery.

 

[Kazema]

I have a Thinkpad X40 and I will never again buy anything other than an IBM. I used to have a Gateway and many (if not most) people around here have Dells, and they just dont compare.
I went for ultra mobility, and I easily get 6 hours out of my battery.

Yeah, and Thinkpads just seem to be built better than everything else, Macs notebooks included. They're pricier but worth it, I think. Will save you trouble in the long run.

 

[zion]

I'm also eyeing the Dell 700m, however am also interested in the 600m. What do you guys think and which way would you lean? Is the 12.1" screen really small and would it be a pain to stare at powerpoints through it. Also on the 700m, is the keyboard smaller than standard size so that its a pain to type or does one get accostomed to it? I've heard on the 600m, heat is a real issue WRT the left palm rest, is this true and is it really annoying, esp if one is going to sit for 8 hours typing and using MS PPT.

Thanks.

 

[Nittany Lion]

So I'm definitely not an older or wiser medical student (actually in my 4th year undergrad) but I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in. I currently use a Sony Vaio laptop, which I've been using for about four years. I love it.. it still works great, and I'm definitely taking it with me to med school next year. It's quiet, doesn't get hot, and it's a good size (mine's pretty big so I actually don't carry it around anywhere too often but I can imagine it comes in a variety of sizes to suit whatever your needs are).

My only gripes: my battery is shot and needs to be replaced (but I guess after 4 years maybe that should be expected? but this didn't happen til this year, my 4th year of having the comp) and my cd burner is on the fritz (but the cd/dvd drive still works fine to play/run media and files on cds). Other than that, I'd recommend this comp any day.

 

[thehomez66]

I've been looking into this a lot as well and think that the best bet for me, because my current undergrad school has a deal with Dell, is to get the Dell Inspiron 9300, if you check out the website its a great laptop with a lot of extra's.

But what I am doing is waiting till early August to order mine because there will be a fairly large price dop in Intel processors around that time. Also, if you buy one now, 6 months from now your laptop will be obsolete and you can get the same laptop for much less if you wait.

And do any of you older and wiser med students know whether or not it would be a bad idea to get a laptop with a 17" widescreen monitor? is that too big, or will it not matter?

 

[Iwy Em Hotep]

I've been looking into this a lot as well and think that the best bet for me, because my current undergrad school has a deal with Dell, is to get the Dell Inspiron 9300, if you check out the website its a great laptop with a lot of extra's.

But what I am doing is waiting till early August to order mine because there will be a fairly large price dop in Intel processors around that time. Also, if you buy one now, 6 months from now your laptop will be obsolete and you can get the same laptop for much less if you wait.

And do any of you older and wiser med students know whether or not it would be a bad idea to get a laptop with a 17" widescreen monitor? is that too big, or will it not matter?

Wow, that's a big laptop. I'd say that most people have 12-15" laptops, just because it's a pain to carry around a 17"+ monster.

iBooks and Powerbooks are popular here too. I'd say a third to a half of all the laptop users in the class have Macs.

 

[thehomez66]

Wow, that's a big laptop. I'd say that most people have 12-15" laptops, just because it's a pain to carry around a 17"+ monster.

Thats true but I'm getting a great deal on the 17" and I can't stand small screens, but do you guys bring your laptops with you everyday and to each class? Cuz then in that case it might be super annoying. Also, can somebody that has a 17" laptop comment on the issue? Thanks

And for anybody looking to get a good laptop for a good price check out www.powernotebooks.com Their comps are basically the exact same as dell's, hp's, gateway's etc and they have one of the highest seller ratings on www.resellerratings.com So they are a trustworthy seller. The only thing that you should be aware of before you buy from them is that their laptops do not come stock with any operating system, you must have your own or add it onto your purchase.

 

[Iwy Em Hotep]

Thats true but I'm getting a great deal on the 17" and I can't stand small screens, but do you guys bring your laptops with you everyday and to each class? Cuz then in that case it might be super annoying.

Classrooms and libraries here have wireless, so most people do bring their laptops everyday.

 

[PhysicsDoc]

The most important thing to look for when buying a laptop is the speed of the hard drive. It should be 5200rpm at a MINIMUM, and preferably 7200rpm - no amount of CPU speed or memory is going to make your laptop seem fast if you're stuck using a 4200rpm drive (which is the stock configuration on 95% of laptops).

There are plenty of good laptops out there... in my experience, Sony, Fujitsu and Samsung have been the best (in no particular order). DO NOT GET A DELL -- I repeat, DO NOT GET A DELL. Just about everything that can go wrong has gone wrong with Dell laptops owned by friends/family... screen died, hard drive died, ethernet port died, computer simply stopped working, etc. This is probably a byproduct of the volume in which Dell must produce their laptops... they probably don't have anywhere near the quality control that other companies have. Keep in mind, though, that you will definitely be paying a price premium if you get, say, a Fujitsu over a Dell -- but if you intend on having the laptop for awhile this is most certainly a good investment.

If you intend on taking the laptop around with you as opposed to letting it sit on a desk and moving it occasionally, you should look into the Panasonic Toughbooks. These laptops come with a *hefty* (~$500) price premium, but can also be run over by a car (while open) and still remain functional (save for the screen, obviously).

Unless you want a glorified typewriter, don't buy a mac. The powerbook is still running on a G4, which is a *horribly* antiquated processor... at the last model refresh in January, Apple only moved the 12'' model from 1.33GHz to 1.5Ghz, signifying that they are having trouble integrating more modern (ie, G5) technology into their laptops. The G4's are still running a 167MHz bus (the speed at which data is moved from the memory to the processor), too, which is a HUGE bottleneck in their performance. I was actually interested in the 12'' powerbook myself about a year ago and went to look at it, but noticed that after about 10 minutes of continuous operation the touchpad became very hot to the touch (at this point, the bottom was at such a temperature that it would probably have burned me if it was on my lap) -- I now have very serious doubts about the quality of the hardware Apple is delivering. Yeah, OSX is great and all, but whenever you buy something from Apple, you're paying outrageous prices for hardware that's 1.5-2 years behind what the PC world is currently offering (Athlon64's, >1GHz FSB's, PCI Express, etc).

 

[Stitch626]

Let me just preface this by saying I'm biased. My father was "let-go" from the evil IBM corporation only months before he was to receive a significantly larger pension (this is after 35 years of service). Consequently, I have been taught to despise any product, employee, & Olympic Games sponsored by IBM.

Regardless, I still don't understand why everyone claims IBM brand to simply be better. Last week I bought a Dell Inspiron 6000 laptop (great deal - Pentium M 730 processor, 512MB memory, 60GB hard drive, 128MB Raedon graphics card, 15.4" screen, CD-RW/DVD ROM drive for $1000). Today, I decided to see how much a comparable IBM laptop would cost. The closest machine I could find (it still has a slower processor, lower memory graphics card, smaller screen, and smaller hard drive) costs $1629.

Someone please make a case that this IBM machine is worth $600 more. I'd love to hear it.

BTW...IBM just sold their laptop business overseas. I wonder how this will fare in the future.

 

[Larsitron]

Unless you want a glorified typewriter, don't buy a mac. The powerbook is still running on a G4, which is a *horribly* antiquated processor... at the last model refresh in January, Apple only moved the 12'' model from 1.33GHz to 1.5Ghz, signifying that they are having trouble integrating more modern (ie, G5) technology into their laptops. The G4's are still running a 167MHz bus (the speed at which data is moved from the memory to the processor), too, which is a HUGE bottleneck in their performance. I was actually interested in the 12'' powerbook myself about a year ago and went to look at it, but noticed that after about 10 minutes of continuous operation the touchpad became very hot to the touch (at this point, the bottom was at such a temperature that it would probably have burned me if it was on my lap) -- I now have very serious doubts about the quality of the hardware Apple is delivering. Yeah, OSX is great and all, but whenever you buy something from Apple, you're paying outrageous prices for hardware that's 1.5-2 years behind what the PC world is currently offering (Athlon64's, >1GHz FSB's, PCI Express, etc).

I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about. The G5 has been around for a little over a year now and given the current zippiness of the G4, there's not a lot of pressure to throw it into a laptop. The current line of G4 chips bear little resemblance to their older siblings and are much, much better, so settle down sparky. Will the G5 find itself in a laptop anytime soon? No, because there are still heat dispersion problems and it'll probably take the better part of a year to push a G5 laptop out the door. Does that mean that the current line of Powerbooks are somehow now good enough? Not at all.

The "glorified typewriter" comment was particularly hilarious because it clearly shows how off base you are in commenting on the functionality of macintosh products. As far as running temps, yeah, G4s run warm. That's been known for...oh...well, the five years that a G4 laptop has been in production and is something that hasn't bothered me in my years of using a first generation one and now a 1.5GHz one. As far as the trackpad heating up, that doesn't make sense given the distance it is from the processor if you look at the interior architecture. Speaking of architecture, that's something to consider. PCs need faster FSB and other things that, on a one to one comparison with a mac seem slower, because the PC architecture wasn't developed as an integrated whole. If you run objective benchmark tests, you'll find that Macs are doing just fine in keeping up with the PC world as far as speed and power.

The idea that Powerbooks are somehow a sub-par platform is completely absurd. I run Final Cut Pro, Motion, Photoshop, and a lot of other high end programs (sometimes simultaneously) and have never, ever had a problem. I totally acknowledge that some people are more comfortable on a PC and that's fine. You should get what you're going to use and what you're comfortable with. But don't let some person who knows how to throw around technical jargon but doesn't know what they're talking about scare you away from trying a new platform. Regardless of what the PC world says, the market is showing that there's a lot of reasons why Mac is a great machine.

 

[synapse lapse]

I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about. The G5 has been around for a little over a year now and given the current zippiness of the G4, there's not a lot of pressure to throw it into a laptop. The current line of G4 chips bear little resemblance to their older siblings and are much, much better, so settle down sparky. Will the G5 find itself in a laptop anytime soon? No, because there are still heat dispersion problems and it'll probably take the better part of a year to push a G5 laptop out the door. Does that mean that the current line of Powerbooks are somehow now good enough? Not at all.

The "glorified typewriter" comment was particularly hilarious because it clearly shows how off base you are in commenting on the functionality of macintosh products. As far as running temps, yeah, G4s run warm. That's been known for...oh...well, the five years that a G4 laptop has been in production and is something that hasn't bothered me in my years of using a first generation one and now a 1.5GHz one. As far as the trackpad heating up, that doesn't make sense given the distance it is from the processor if you look at the interior architecture. Speaking of architecture, that's something to consider. PCs need faster FSB and other things that, on a one to one comparison with a mac seem slower, because the PC architecture wasn't developed as an integrated whole. If you run objective benchmark tests, you'll find that Macs are doing just fine in keeping up with the PC world as far as speed and power.

The idea that Powerbooks are somehow a sub-par platform is completely absurd. I run Final Cut Pro, Motion, Photoshop, and a lot of other high end programs (sometimes simultaneously) and have never, ever had a problem. I totally acknowledge that some people are more comfortable on a PC and that's fine. You should get what you're going to use and what you're comfortable with. But don't let some person who knows how to throw around technical jargon but doesn't know what they're talking about scare you away from trying a new platform. Regardless of what the PC world says, the market is showing that there's a lot of reasons why Mac is a great machine.

It is important, as Larsitron mentions, to consider the chip architecture when discussing speeds. The RISC based architecture that mac chips use enable them to squeeze more out of a smaller FSB. While I agree that the Athlon 64 processor and the soon to come 64 bit Windows OS are great, along with other things like serial drives, one can certainly get by fine with a mac. FYI: I use a PC (that I built) and had an ibook until I sold it last year. Plan on getting a Sony T series in med school, mainly due to the fact portability is my main concern. Plus that laptop is oh so sick!

 

[chameleonknight]

I have to say that most people in my class are NOT particularly pleased with the Gateway 450s we were required to buy. They seem pretty buggy.

My old roommate had a Sony Vaio and loved it; if I were going to buy a laptop, I'd look at those and the Thinkpads.

 

[Larsitron]

Plan on getting a Sony T series in med school, mainly due to the fact portability is my main concern. Plus that laptop is oh so sick!

That's true. It's a wicked awesome machine.

 

[PhysicsDoc]

I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about. The G5 has been around for a little over a year now and given the current zippiness of the G4, there's not a lot of pressure to throw it into a laptop. The current line of G4 chips bear little resemblance to their older siblings and are much, much better, so settle down sparky. Will the G5 find itself in a laptop anytime soon? No, because there are still heat dispersion problems and it'll probably take the better part of a year to push a G5 laptop out the door. Does that mean that the current line of Powerbooks are somehow now good enough? Not at all.

Wrong.

http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/08/20030809162410.shtml

"The PowerMac G5s were introduced at the World Wide Developer's Conference in June 2003 with shipment dates in August. Some recent rumors have suggested that some PowerMac G5s may have already escaped to some important customers."

Sure, the G4 powerbooks are 'good enough' if you're only using the notebook for 'everyday' tasks, but personally I would expect something better if I'm paying top-dollar for a notebook.

One should also note that Steve Jobs promised (roughly a year and a half ago) that the G5's would be hitting 3GHz by the summer of 2004 (http://www.themacobserver.com/article/2003/09/17.2.shtml). According to recent rumors, the newly updated powermacs (i.e., ones that *have not yet been released* as of April 2005) will top out at 2.7 GHz. Scaling the speed of the G5 is not Apple's problem, it's IBM's; nevertheless, Apple's hardware is falling further and further behind what is available in the PC world, while they're still charging outrageous prices for it.

The "glorified typewriter" comment was particularly hilarious because it clearly shows how off base you are in commenting on the functionality of macintosh products. As far as running temps, yeah, G4s run warm. That's been known for...oh...well, the five years that a G4 laptop has been in production and is something that hasn't bothered me in my years of using a first generation one and now a 1.5GHz one. As far as the trackpad heating up, that doesn't make sense given the distance it is from the processor if you look at the interior architecture. Speaking of architecture, that's something to consider. PCs need faster FSB and other things that, on a one to one comparison with a mac seem slower, because the PC architecture wasn't developed as an integrated whole. If you run objective benchmark tests, you'll find that Macs are doing just fine in keeping up with the PC world as far as speed and power.

The laptop I'm currently using (a 13'' Centrino 1.6GHz) gets warm, but has never once felt 'hot' to me. It spends most of its time plugged into a power outlet, too. I should clarify what I said about the 12'' powerbook: it wasn't the computer (i.e. CPU or GPU, which are all extremely low-voltage components in laptops anyway) that was getting hot, it was the computer's *battery* (which happens to be located right next to the touchpad, at least in the model I was using). Perhaps this explains why Apple needed to recall overheating/exploding batteries in the 15'' model (https://depot.info.apple.com/batteryexchange/index.html); they apparently have set a very high limit on the amount of heat the battery can put out while charging.

The problem with benchmarks is that programs written for PC's have to be ported to OSX and vice versa; programs will always perform significantly worse when ported to a non-native OS (note that all Adobe programs were originally written for Mac OS; hence why they are always used by Apple in benchmarks). (Another note: for those of you still using Acrobat to read PDF's, look into GhostView... although you only really need it to reas postscript files, GhostView can also read PDF's, and opens in a fraction of a second compared to the ~10 seconds Acrobat 6 takes to open on my laptop). If you want a good example of a Mac's performance on a non-Apple native application that is both CPU- and GPU-hungry, take a look at the Doom 3 benchmarks (yes, it's a game, but it's probably the most floating point-intsneive application out there):

http://www.macworld.com/news/2005/03/02/doom3/index.php

Let's take a number from the dual 2.5GHz powermac with an X800 XT at 1600x1200: 29.5 frames per second. Now let's look for the same number from a PC system with a comparable video card:

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2299&p=5

Looking at the top graph (for the X800 XT), the PC is getting 55.4 frames per second... it's 87% faster, and you can probably build a PC of that caliber for <50% the cost of the powermac.

The idea that Powerbooks are somehow a sub-par platform is completely absurd. I run Final Cut Pro, Motion, Photoshop, and a lot of other high end programs (sometimes simultaneously) and have never, ever had a problem. I totally acknowledge that some people are more comfortable on a PC and that's fine. You should get what you're going to use and what you're comfortable with. But don't let some person who knows how to throw around technical jargon but doesn't know what they're talking about scare you away from trying a new platform. Regardless of what the PC world says, the market is showing that there's a lot of reasons why Mac is a great machine.

These programs are all involved with media design -- something a med student probably couldn't care less about. Again, these are all mac-native programs and have no point of a comparison on a PC... of course you would expect a proprietary program to run fast if it's designed to be used only on a controlled hardware base.

Most of the computationally-intensive tasks I perform are involved with my research, and it is primarily for this reason that I chose a PC over a mac. My guess would be that well over 99% of (non-commercial, i.e. academic) scientific software was written for Windows and has no cross-platform counterparts. In retrospect, if I'd bought a mac, I would have been screwed, because I wouldn't have been able to use the software I needed.

The mac is a great choice if you only intend to use it as a desktop computer, which is probably the case for most med students. Just keep in mind that you're paying premium prices for technology that would have been relegated to the trash bin a year ago if it was a PC laptop.

 

[synapse lapse]

Wrong.

http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/08/20030809162410.shtml

"The PowerMac G5s were introduced at the World Wide Developer's Conference in June 2003 with shipment dates in August. Some recent rumors have suggested that some PowerMac G5s may have already escaped to some important customers."

Sure, the G4 powerbooks are 'good enough' if you're only using the notebook for 'everyday' tasks, but personally I would expect something better if I'm paying top-dollar for a notebook.

One should also note that Steve Jobs promised (roughly a year and a half ago) that the G5's would be hitting 3GHz by the summer of 2004 (http://www.themacobserver.com/article/2003/09/17.2.shtml). According to recent rumors, the newly updated powermacs (i.e., ones that *have not yet been released* as of April 2005) will top out at 2.7 GHz. Scaling the speed of the G5 is not Apple's problem, it's IBM's; nevertheless, Apple's hardware is falling further and further behind what is available in the PC world, while they're still charging outrageous prices for it.



The laptop I'm currently using (a 13'' Centrino 1.6GHz) gets warm, but has never once felt 'hot' to me. It spends most of its time plugged into a power outlet, too. I should clarify what I said about the 12'' powerbook: it wasn't the computer (i.e. CPU or GPU, which are all extremely low-voltage components in laptops anyway) that was getting hot, it was the computer's *battery* (which happens to be located right next to the touchpad, at least in the model I was using). Perhaps this explains why Apple needed to recall overheating/exploding batteries in the 15'' model (https://depot.info.apple.com/batteryexchange/index.html); they apparently have set a very high limit on the amount of heat the battery can put out while charging.

The problem with benchmarks is that programs written for PC's have to be ported to OSX and vice versa; programs will always perform significantly worse when ported to a non-native OS (note that all Adobe programs were originally written for Mac OS; hence why they are always used by Apple in benchmarks). (Another note: for those of you still using Acrobat to read PDF's, look into GhostView... although you only really need it to reas postscript files, GhostView can also read PDF's, and opens in a fraction of a second compared to the ~10 seconds Acrobat 6 takes to open on my laptop). If you want a good example of a Mac's performance on a non-Apple native application that is both CPU- and GPU-hungry, take a look at the Doom 3 benchmarks (yes, it's a game, but it's probably the most floating point-intsneive application out there):

http://www.macworld.com/news/2005/03/02/doom3/index.php

Let's take a number from the dual 2.5GHz powermac with an X800 XT at 1600x1200: 29.5 frames per second. Now let's look for the same number from a PC system with a comparable video card:

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2299&p=5

Looking at the top graph (for the X800 XT), the PC is getting 55.4 frames per second... it's 87% faster, and you can probably build a PC of that caliber for <50% the cost of the powermac.



These programs are all involved with media design -- something a med student probably couldn't care less about. Again, these are all mac-native programs and have no point of a comparison on a PC... of course you would expect a proprietary program to run fast if it's designed to be used only on a controlled hardware base.

Most of the computationally-intensive tasks I perform are involved with my research, and it is primarily for this reason that I chose a PC over a mac. My guess would be that well over 99% of (non-commercial, i.e. academic) scientific software was written for Windows and has no cross-platform counterparts. In retrospect, if I'd bought a mac, I would have been screwed, because I wouldn't have been able to use the software I needed.

The mac is a great choice if you only intend to use it as a desktop computer, which is probably the case for most med students. Just keep in mind that you're paying premium prices for technology that would have been relegated to the trash bin a year ago if it was a PC laptop.

Good points Frick 👍 I used to be an avid mac fan, and they did used to be superior machines. However, you are correct that they are falling slowly behind the PC market. I still think RISC is a better chip design, and that apple overall has better hardware, but the premium you pay for the product is not as worth it as it used to be. Hence, the reason I built my own PC for half the cost of a PC from the store, and 30% cost of a new mac. However, we don't know what the feature holds for apple, and I am confident that Steve Jobs is the man for the task.

 

[gasandpaindoc]

I am currently a first year res in anesthesiology, I have been using a mac for the last 8 years. I am not going to tell you that a PC is a far more superior computer or vice versa. What i will share with you is insight from my point of view. If you choose to get a pc I would go with a IBM thinkpad or a Toshiba unit. Stay away from Dell, as mentioned above they have little or no customer service, their computers are also built very poorly. The only problem i will inform you about PC's is Microsoft. Frick and his cohort might be correct about the speed gains of a pc's as appose to a mac. But unfortunately these computers currently run on MS windows, which is essentially a poor copy cat version of a apple's OS. Need I mention the billions of viruses that plague the pc world. If you are looking to get a PC i would suggest looking at LINUX.
Personally I would suggest getting a mac. If you would like to see what mac's have done in science then look here:

http://www.apple.com/science/

for radiology look here:

http://homepage.mac.com/rossetantoine/osirix/

The center for surgical excellence in Vancouver, Canada is currently using Apple computers to impove patient care and Physician education thru the use of macintosh computers. If this is reason for you to purchase a MAC then I dont know what is.

One last thing. Mac OSX had had several updates in the last couple of years, in my opinion Windows has not even caught up with Jaguar let alone Panther. Tiger is next week, were is Microsoft's Longhorn????

 

[Larsitron]

Frick,

You've raised some good points, and done the research to back them up. 👍 So props to that. My criticism of the post I quoted was that it drastically mischaracterized the current state of the Mac and used a shoddy line of thought to justify the point being made.

I apologize for being off on my shipment dates of the G5 processor. As far as using Powerbooks for everyday tasks, I would argue that is exactly what most people use their laptops for. Power computing is the realm of the desktop and I can't say that Macs are a great deal in the cost department given the ease with which a person can build their own computer. However, there are several power computing/super computing ventures that are finding themselves using Macs for superior performance. So it depends on the context of the problem being approached.

As far as games like Doom 3 and the like that require massive graphics cards and other power, the PC is still king. But I don't know many med students who are looking for their laptop to be able to run such a power hog like Doom 3 unless they're playing games during lectures.

I don't know about the nature of your research, so I can't comment about computing performance with it/availability of software for it. But I can say that for the vast majority of scientific tasks, Macs are doing just fine. Plus, there's something to be said for the OS itself. The current incarnation of OSX and its forthcoming upgrade is incredibly stable, secure, and increasingly flexible. I don't think people can say this for Windows. And this smily seems to prove my point (notice the blue screen of death).

Macs are more expensive. Its true. But you get what you pay for in terms of usability, dependability, and quality.

But I'm not trying to get involved in a flame war. Frick appears to be knowledgeable and the points raised are valid, so there are no complaints from me. It just seems like we're looking at this from two different perspectives.

 

[synapse lapse]

Frick,

You've raised some good points, and done the research to back them up. 👍 So props to that. My criticism of the post I quoted was that it drastically mischaracterized the current state of the Mac and used a shoddy line of thought to justify the point being made.

I apologize for being off on my shipment dates of the G5 processor. As far as using Powerbooks for everyday tasks, I would argue that is exactly what most people use their laptops for. Power computing is the realm of the desktop and I can't say that Macs are a great deal in the cost department given the ease with which a person can build their own computer. However, there are several power computing/super computing ventures that are finding themselves using Macs for superior performance. So it depends on the context of the problem being approached.

As far as games like Doom 3 and the like that require massive graphics cards and other power, the PC is still king. But I don't know many med students who are looking for their laptop to be able to run such a power hog like Doom 3 unless they're playing games during lectures.

I don't know about the nature of your research, so I can't comment about computing performance with it/availability of software for it. But I can say that for the vast majority of scientific tasks, Macs are doing just fine. Plus, there's something to be said for the OS itself. The current incarnation of OSX and its forthcoming upgrade is incredibly stable, secure, and increasingly flexible. I don't think people can say this for Windows. And this smily seems to prove my point (notice the blue screen of death).

Macs are more expensive. Its true. But you get what you pay for in terms of usability, dependability, and quality.

But I'm not trying to get involved in a flame war. Frick appears to be knowledgeable and the points raised are valid, so there are no complaints from me. It just seems like we're looking at this from two different perspectives.

of course, your cats name IS wozniak

 

[Larsitron]

That's right! lol.

 

[fun8stuff]

There are plenty of good laptops out there... in my experience, Sony, Fujitsu and Samsung have been the best (in no particular order). DO NOT GET A DELL -- I repeat, DO NOT GET A DELL. Just about everything that can go wrong has gone wrong with Dell laptops owned by friends/family... screen died, hard drive died, ethernet port died, computer simply stopped working, etc. This is probably a byproduct of the volume in which Dell must produce their laptops... they probably don't have anywhere near the quality control that other companies have. Keep in mind, though, that you will definitely be paying a price premium if you get, say, a Fujitsu over a Dell -- but if you intend on having the laptop for awhile this is most certainly a good investment.

I have never heard of or had any problems with dell... my father's company goes through dell (for laptops and desktops) and they have never had any problems in the last 4 years. I have had dell desktops and have had very little problems. In fact, I fried my motherboard and harddrive (long story) about 2 days after the warranty expired and they still replaced everything for free. Not to mention my school buys all dells... i really don't understand where you get your info. The only problems i have had with dell support is the fact that whenever you call, you get someone in india... but they always seem to get things done for me.

 

[Acherona]

Thats true but I'm getting a great deal on the 17" and I can't stand small screens, but do you guys bring your laptops with you everyday and to each class? Cuz then in that case it might be super annoying. Also, can somebody that has a 17" laptop comment on the issue? Thanks

And for anybody looking to get a good laptop for a good price check out www.powernotebooks.com Their comps are basically the exact same as dell's, hp's, gateway's etc and they have one of the highest seller ratings on www.resellerratings.com So they are a trustworthy seller. The only thing that you should be aware of before you buy from them is that their laptops do not come stock with any operating system, you must have your own or add it onto your purchase.

This website is selling mostly sagers. I have a sager now and it sh*ts. My whole family got them a few years ago because they seemed to be a great deal and they have all died except for mine, which has been resuscitated several times. The first time it died was several months after I got it (wouldn't turn on). I have had to send it back for repairs twice over the past four years. It gets very hot and makes loud noises. The battery is completely dead now. My alt key broke off over a year ago and apparently there is no way to replace it unless I like pay an exhorbitant amount to get the whole keyboard replaced. The outer finish is worn off where I rest my hand by the mouse so you can see the plastic underneath. Maybe it is true that all the parts are from the same manufacturers but there must be some skill in putting the parts together that differentiates name brand from brand X. While it may be faster than what I could otherwise afford, it is *not* a well made computer and not worth the money you save.

 

[dinesh]

I would probably go with a Dell 600m or 700m , according to how big you like the screen.
I've heard that the 600m has the hd in a place that it generates excessive heat, and that can't be too good for a man if he has it on his lap.............laptop? 😱

Dells are great, support is great, it's not a Mac, what's not to love.

 

[fun8stuff]

I would probably go with a Dell 600m or 700m , according to how big you like the screen.
I've heard that the 600m has the hd in a place that it generates excessive heat, and that can't be too good for a man if he has it on his lap.............laptop? 😱

Dells are great, support is great, it's not a Mac, what's not to love.

heh, yeah, 20/20 did a thing a while back about how the heat created by laptops may in fact lower a man's sperm account....

 

[lalamoo]

I've been looking into this a lot as well and think that the best bet for me, because my current undergrad school has a deal with Dell, is to get the Dell Inspiron 9300, if you check out the website its a great laptop with a lot of extra's.

But what I am doing is waiting till early August to order mine because there will be a fairly large price dop in Intel processors around that time. Also, if you buy one now, 6 months from now your laptop will be obsolete and you can get the same laptop for much less if you wait.

And do any of you older and wiser med students know whether or not it would be a bad idea to get a laptop with a 17" widescreen monitor? is that too big, or will it not matter?

Homez,
How do you know there will be a large drop in Intel processors in August? Is there a source I can confirm this with? Also, is that all processors, or just some? I'd like to get the M.

 

[mustangsally65]

As far as the comparisons between Mac and Windows processor speeds, a 1 GHz processor in a Mac is not equivalent to a 1 GHz processor in a PC. They are completely different processors.

Responses to a similar question on MacWorld's Magazine forums:

"Apple isn't going to call a 1 GHz processor 1.5 GHz because it's simply not true. Clock speed is definite. Clock speed is also a terribly poor indicator of performance."

"GHz is only the same between two processors of the EXACT same type.
A newer Pentium 4 for example has more cache, a faster bus speed, and HT, so a new 2.5 GHz Pentium 4 is actually faster than an old one.
A 2 GHz Athlon 64 is faster than a 3 GHz Pentium 4...
A 1.25 GHz G4 processor is about as fast as, oh, a 2 GHz P4?
But yeah, Mac processors are faster per GHz than x86 ones."

"A 1.25 GHz G4 like the one in the Mac Mini is about equal to a 2 GHz Pentium 4, but Mac OS X (thanks to Quartz) will FEEL smoother and more responsive than a 3 GHz Pentium 4. You'll only notice the difference running heavy programs.

Additionally, don't forget about Windows rot! Over time, Windows gets slower and slower (unless you regularly reformat). Therefore, a 1 year old 2 GHz Pentium 4 will eventually slow down like it hit a brick wall thanks to Windows, while the Mac will still feel as fast as when you bought it. "

"Clock speed (e.g., ghz) is equivalent to RPMs (just like RPMs, can be constant or varied over a period of time).

Processor output (flops) is equivalent to horsepower.

Tasks accomplished (copy file, render video) is equivalent to velocity of vehicle.

The important thing to remember is that if you care about velocity of vehicle (tasks accomplished), you must keep in mind the skill of driver in shifting (equivalent to efficiency of OS and applications), driving conditions like uphill/downhill (equivalent to other apps running, processor load) and other car specs like weight of vehicle, grip of tires, etc. (equivalent to various PC features like I/O bandwidth, swap space, HDD speed, etc.).

In short, remember the following:

- A Ferrari is faster in a straightaway.
- A Ford F350 will pull your boat faster off the line.
- An Audi Quattro will get you home faster in the rain.

Horsepower is just one factor. Drive the car you like that suits the road you're traveling. "



MacWorld

 

[Matt_McClure]

my fiance has the 17" powerbook and it is sweet. im looking into getting the 15". i was looking at my schools website though and i know they dont really endorse getting macs, im wondering it anyone has ever run into a problem of getting stuff in class they couldnt use..

The 17 is huge. I'd love to get a 17, but they don't even fit in a normal laptop case. However, I still envy it. I'm probably going to pick up a 15 this summer.

 

[thehomez66]

Homez,
How do you know there will be a large drop in Intel processors in August? Is there a source I can confirm this with? Also, is that all processors, or just some? I'd like to get the M.

I don't know where exactly the source for this would be, might want to check www.hardocp.com and/or www.hardforum.com But I was told by a friend of mine who is a big computer guy that Intel has announced the price drop around that time in order for them to sell out the current processors making way for the new ones that they have coming out, like their new dual core processors (i think). And according to the same friend of mine, it is a fairly common practice for processor manufacturers to announce price drops. Also, more than likely the price drop will affect the Pentium M processor as well as the others.

O and I forgot to add that AMD is planning on releasing a Mobile processor soon that is supposed to be fantastic, this will also result in price drops in the M chips.

 

[deuist]

laptops these days are all the same.

The hell they are. The only laptops that are worth purchasing are IBM's, Apple's, and Toshiba's. Dell, Gateway, and Sony make some of the worst computers in existence. Dell is like Wal-Mart: it uses sub-par components to make a sub-par PC that will break in a moment's notice. The Sony ****box may have lots of multimedia outlets, but is prone to motherboard failure. Please, don't buy something as expensive as a computer unless you know what you're putting you money towards.

 

[lalamoo]

So, to continue the notebook computer discussion...

I've decided to go for a 12" or 14.1" screen so that it will be low weight (less than 7 lbs) and not too big to see over in class, yet big enough that I can comfortably email, write papers, compose presentations, and work on data crunching for research when available.

I have nothing against Macs - its just just that I prefer pc's. I ignored Toshiba for the most part because I find their website unhelpful (they use one-word descriptors like "distinctive" and "uncompromising" that are supposed to help you decide between models) and I don't like that they won't let you customize. Also, other major brands Gateway and Sony didn't seem to stack up in the ratings in lighter weight categories. So after checking PC Magazine, PC World, CNET, and notebookreview.com, I've narrowed my choices down to these:

compaq presario v2000
ibm thinkpad t42
dell inspiron 700m

Compaq PROs: great ratings, great speakers, wide-screen, 3 USB ports (others have only 2), firewire, 6-in-1 memory card slot, good price (~$1400 with specs I want), 3hr battery life
Compaq CONs: fastest hd available is the 80 BG 5400 RMPs (the other sizes are the 4200 RPM), max warranty is 3 years (as opposed to 4 from IBM and Dell), bad reliability and tech support (according to Consumer Reports buying guide 2005)

T42 PROs: great ratings, great reliability and tech support (Consumer Reports buying guide 2005), 60 GB 7200 RMP HD available, 4hr battery life
T42 CONs: high cost (~$2100 with specs I want), no firewire, no media card slot, lame-o speakers (or so the reviews say), company just sold their laptop division to a Chinese company called "Lenovo" (ie where will the brand go??)

Inspiron 700M PROs: good ratings, lightest weight, flash card slot, firewire, 60 GB 7200 RMP HD available, good price (~$1400 with specs I want)
Inspiron 700M CONs: smaller screen (12"), have to get 2x256 DDR SDRAM because 1x512 is not available, small keyboard, tendency to get hot?, 2hr battery life

I'm leaning towards the Compaq, but a summer sale could definitely sway me another way (ahem, Dell? Lenovo?). Thoughts?

 

[gaikokujin]

are the 15" powerbooks actually a bigger computer than the 12" or is the screen just bigger?

 

[gaikokujin]

i used to be a rabid dell fan -- i loved their customer service and the fact that they would come to my house to fix my laptop. but then they started outsourcing to india (i dont have any problems with indians, but the people they hired often had atrocious accents and were really infuriating t owork with). in 4 years the same hinge on my laptop broke 5 times!!! (i never move my laptop from my desk, so it wasnt bc i dropped the computer, it was bc the laptop had a crappy design). the last couple times i called the customer service ppl acted like i had dropped the computer and hemmed and hawed about having someone come out to fix it. jesus, i paid for a warranty!! that made me mad

ive come to the conclusion that dell markets an ok laptop but dont seem to be very innovative with their actual design. from looking on the website about the current models, they dont seem to be very inspiring.

has anyone had any experience with apple customer service? how does the case hold up when you are carting a powerbook to school withyou every day? is it worth it to buy the 300$ extra warranty?

 

[zion]

i used to be a rabid dell fan -- i loved their customer service and the fact that they would come to my house to fix my laptop. but then they started outsourcing to india (i dont have any problems with indians, but the people they hired often had atrocious accents and were really infuriating t owork with). in 4 years the same hinge on my laptop broke 5 times!!! (i never move my laptop from my desk, so it wasnt bc i dropped the computer, it was bc the laptop had a crappy design). the last couple times i called the customer service ppl acted like i had dropped the computer and hemmed and hawed about having someone come out to fix it. jesus, i paid for a warranty!! that made me mad

ive come to the conclusion that dell markets an ok laptop but dont seem to be very innovative with their actual design. from looking on the website about the current models, they dont seem to be very inspiring.

has anyone had any experience with apple customer service? how does the case hold up when you are carting a powerbook to school withyou every day? is it worth it to buy the 300$ extra warranty?

what dell model was this?