Best way to negotiate for higher pay?

[Ladyg228]

Hi SDN family,

I am probably getting ahead of myself but I was just invited for a second interview. They also followed up with asking for my references so my hopes are higher than the moon right now.

Thank you in advance! I hope everyone is having a great night

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[Thestrugglez]

What are you bringing to the table that no one else is? What did you do as an inpatient intern that really makes you stand out?

Negotiating is certainly possible as long as you can justify to them that what you are bringing is worth that extra cost.

 

[Marzapan]

Hi SDN family,

I am probably getting ahead of myself but I was just invited for a second interview. They also followed up with asking for my references so my hopes are higher than the moon right now. The hiring pharmacist said he was highly impressed by me, now I just have to seal the deal with the inpatient supervisor.

This will be my second time negotiating and I can honestly say my one and only attempt (at my current position) was terrible at best.
The posting has a pretty large salary range (88-125k/year), just wondering where in this range would be most realistic?

Some background info: been in pharmacy practice since 2012, 3 years of tech experience during undergrad, worked as inpatient intern during pharmacy school, officially a pharmacist since June 2020, been at my retail position since July. Think I have room to negotiate with my work experience?

Thank you in advance! I hope everyone is having a great night

Tech and intern experience is irrelevant for negotiating purposes so you don't have any leverage at all... if it worked that way then someone who's flipped burgers or worked as a cashier at Burger King for 10 years can make an argument that they should be paid $150k to be an In-N-Out manager because they have "10 years of experience in the field"...

Plus you're a new grad so you have no leverage. Learn to accept it.

 

[M0df]

Yep. Intern experience doesn't count in HR determining your salary and what I have seen is HR has a little table for different positions to decide what you will get paid.

I am not saying an offer is not coming but you don't know what it will be. What if it is much better than low-ball offer you were forced to accept at retail. At that point, is it even worth negotiating for 50 cents.

 

[PharmDBro2017]

Ask for 25% more than what you need, and go from there. That gives you negotiating room.

If you're a new grad, don't.

 

[rxkrafted]

Your intern years are irrelevant as others have mentioned. You will most likely be given an offer at the lower range of that pay scale based on your 0 years of work experience as a licensed pharmacist. You are probably being lined up against pharmacists that have experience and those who completed residency which will make it tougher in the 2nd interviews tbh...

 

[Marzapan]

Biggest misconceptions for salary among new grads is that they will make $120k or whatever the glassdoor average currently is. The $120k salary is an AVERAGE among all employed pharmacists by skills and experience, so there are many pharmacists who will make $60-80k and some who will make outlier $200k+ salaries. In other words, an "AVERAGE" pharmacist is an experienced, mid-career pharmacist with 10-15 years experience (practicing as a pharmacist, intern/tech experience doesn't count).
What does this mean? It means that NEW GRADS who have 0 work experience and 0 demonstrated skills SHOULD be receiving lower salaries and the term "low ball salary" shouldn't even be a term that exists among new grads. If an experienced pharmacist was offered $60-80k then yes, that would qualify as a "low ball" offer but new grads need to quit having this haughty "I won't accept anything less than _____ salary" attitude because they have no leverage in the negotiation room.

 

[farmadiazepine]

You have 0 years of pharmacist experience. There is no negotiating. You will get whatever market rate is for a new graduate with 0 years of experience.

You can negotiate pay if given an offer, but don't be surprised if they say no. There are at least 100 people who are applying for the same position who will immediately and gladly take whatever the offer is.

 

[mentos]

How about waiting until you get an offer first?

 

[ValeRx]

Is this a government job? Many positions on USAJobs have a wide range because that factors in the salary from Step 1 - Step 10. Even with seven years experience as a pharmacist I only came in with two years experience being credited. As mentioned before, your intern and tech hours mean nothing. You take what you can get. You may as well have been flipping burgers or dealing cards during those years.

 

[NorthTexasPharmacist]

I would not try to negotiate. In this market, no matter where you are, if you get an offer, just take it. There are a thousand more of you that will work for much much less. We are in a market where people who have gone through 2 years of residency cannot find a job. My two cents.

 

[Momus]

I would not try to negotiate. In this market, no matter where you are, if you get an offer, just take it. There are a thousand more of you that will work for much much less. We are in a market where people who have gone through 2 years of residency cannot find a job. My two cents.

I know few people with residency work in retail lmao. Can't get a job in a hospital. 4 yrs+ looking and stuck in retail.

The residency works against you if you end up in a retail nowadays. Every year you wait to enter the work force, salary is dropping by $2-3/yr. You get more pay cut, the more education you take. Only in pharmacy. Market forces is at work.

 

[NorthTexasPharmacist]

I know few people with residency work in retail lmao. Can't get a job in a hospital. 4 yrs+ looking and stuck in retail.

The residency works against you if you end up in a retail nowadays. Every year you wait to enter the work force, salary is dropping by $2-3/yr. You get more pay cut, the more education you take. Only in pharmacy. Market forces is at work.

This is huge problem for us. I've gotten 10 applicants with residency experience for a prn position we posted last month. I've actually interviewed one of them. She said she finished her second year of residency last year but have not been able to find anything in her specialty. She said she was a prn for CVS and wants to kill herself every time she works lol It was just sad to talk to her about the whole situation.

 

[mentos]

I work at a LTC. One of the most recent hires did a residency and it took her nearly a year to get this job. She only got in because she knew someone. You don't need a residency to work here.

This is her first ever job. She's socially awkward. She was a b*tch to all the techs cause of her high and mighty "I did a residency" attitude and now no one will help her. The techs don't even know what a residency is, half of them thought she was a student intern. Every time you speak to her, she starts her response with "clinically, this" and "clinically that". Sh*it's annoying, I wish they just hired someone from retail instead.

 

[Cauris]

From a PGY2 trained who recently went through the process of getting a job, it's pretty normal to be asked for references. It doesn't necessarily translate to a job offer. I had 25+ interview offers and more than half asked for references.

I negotiated my salary using board certifications + 2 years of residency as my reason. For a newly graduate with no experience/residency, not sure how you're going to justify your pay raise. You're not eligible for BCPS anytime soon. In addition, you should consider yourself lucky to get a hospital position without a residency in today's job market.

 

[Wickett]

If you get offered the position and they put a low offer out there, it doesnt hurt to ask. Just be polite and say something to the effect of "I really think we would make a good fit and Im looking to stay on somewhere long term, but I was hoping for $x/hr." Ask for a bit more than what they offer if its at the bottom of the posted range, but don't ask for the very top end. If they say no, they say no. If they like you, they wouldn't just pull the offer completely if you ask nicely....just dont expect them to necessarily budge from the initial offer. It is easier to negotiate once you've been somewhere for at least a year and can give concrete reasons why you deserve higher pay/have added value.

 

[mentos]

I wasn't expecting the firing squad. I do understand I don't have much leverage hence why I am seeking out some counsel on the matter. I don't believe that I'm entitled to any average compensation but there has numerous forums about new grads cheapening the profession with taking lower pay. Just thought I ask.....

There had been 108 people who qualified for the position, 47 interviews were conducted, and I just accepted my tentative offer today. It's a half & half clinical-staffing pharmacist position. It's literally in no-man land but I am just ecstatic to have this opportunity. Due to the remote location, the site has a long history of inability to retain staff for longer than 1-2 years but I am planning to make the most of this position. So I'm in it for the long haul with them. They are making an investment in me, I am deeply committed to making their investment worthwhile.

They offered a little less than what I am currently earning (which I was expecting), my plan is to ask if they would match my current pay. The only bad question is the one you didn't ask.

Congrats! Go for it!

 

[Ladyg228]

Congrats! Go for it!

Thank you!!!

 

[ValeRx]

I wasn't expecting the firing squad. I do understand I don't have much leverage hence why I am seeking out some counsel on the matter. I don't believe that I'm entitled to any average compensation but there has numerous forums about new grads cheapening the profession with taking lower pay. Just thought I ask.....

Firing squad? We just responded to your question and gave you the logic behind it. You are not special in any way in terms of professional stature. You have no experience and no specialized training/education. You aren't entitled to anything BUT the average. If I were the hiring manager and you asked for a higher wage, I'd ask what made you feel as if you deserved more than anyone else applying for this position. What would your response be?

 

[projektreverb]

I wasn't expecting the firing squad. I do understand I don't have much leverage hence why I am seeking out some counsel on the matter. I don't believe that I'm entitled to any average compensation but there has numerous forums about new grads cheapening the profession with taking lower pay. Just thought I ask.....

There had been 108 people who qualified for the position, 47 interviews were conducted, and I just accepted my tentative offer today. It's a half & half clinical-staffing pharmacist position. It's literally in no-man land but I am just ecstatic to have this opportunity. Due to the remote location, the site has a long history of inability to retain staff for longer than 1-2 years but I am planning to make the most of this position. So I'm in it for the long haul with them. They are making an investment in me, I am deeply committed to making their investment worthwhile.

They offered a little less than what I am currently earning (which I was expecting), my plan is to ask if they would match my current pay. The only bad question is the one you didn't ask.

Don't ask questions if you aren't ready for honest answers. On the flipside, congrats!

 

[gwarm01]

As long as they make a reasonable offer just take it. I negotiated my first job, but only because I had two offers in the same week. In today's market I probably wouldn't push it.

Congrats on the job offer, but don't feel like you owe them any additional loyalty because they are "making an investment" in you. That mindset turns toxic very quickly and will let you justify abusive behavior. Go into work, give it your best, and you are upholding your end of the deal. If a better paying position in a more desirable location opens up once you have more experience, then I say you've earned it.

 

[Ladyg228]

As long as they make a reasonable offer just take it. I negotiated my first job, but only because I had two offers in the same week. In today's market I probably wouldn't push it.

Congrats on the job offer, but don't feel like you owe them any additional loyalty because they are "making an investment" in you. That mindset turns toxic very quickly and will let you justify abusive behavior. Go into work, give it your best, and you are upholding your end of the deal. If a better paying position in a more desirable location opens up one you have more experience, then I say you've earned it.

Thank you!!! This is really kind of you to share I will definitely keep it in mind. I have big plans for this position, as I'm hoping to really sign my name in the sand. I know that I will always be the "underdog" going forward without a residency. However, that won't deter me from my personal goals of starting ambulatory care and mental health initiatives. While I may not have a fancy certificate, I will be making every effort to immerse myself in a variety of learning and growth opportunities afforded to those in residency.

 

[ValeRx]

I don't think I'm special but it was a large range and wanted some insight on realistic expectations. Plus being a new grad, it would automatically imply I lack experience in this arena. Guess I was still in my feelings when I wrote that last post, I apologize. It is not my intention to be confrontational, I am very appreciative of all the replies and feedback!

Believe me when I say we're not trying to give you a hard time. Like you said.. realistic expectations. Many here ARE hiring managers and we just want to make sure you don't have that stereotypical millennial mindset that you're special just because your mom told you so and that you are ENTITLED to more than anyone else. In fact it's great to see one of our own actually get that job.

Congrats.

 

[Rockinacoustic]

Don't forget to negotiate benefits outside of your take-home pay: relocation assistance, payment for board certification, professional memberships, tuition reimbursement, etc.

 

[Ladyg228]

Believe me when I say we're not trying to give you a hard time. Like you said.. realistic expectations. Many here ARE hiring managers and we just want to make sure you don't have that stereotypical millennial mindset that you're special just because your mom told you so and that you are ENTITLED to more than anyone else. In fact it's great to see one of our own actually get that job.

Congrats.

Thank you, truly!!

Don't forget to negotiate benefits outside of your take-home pay: relocation assistance, payment for board certification, professional memberships, tuition reimbursement, etc.

They are covering my re-location cost and there will be a recruitment bonus. I am beyond ecstatic and it's already off to a great start. They even bought up negotiations before I had to, will keep you guys posted!

 

[Litha]

...
There had been 108 people who qualified for the position, 47 interviews were conducted, and I just accepted my tentative offer today. It's a half & half clinical-staffing pharmacist position. It's literally in no-man land but I am just ecstatic to have this opportunity. Due to the remote location, the site has a long history of inability to retain staff for longer than 1-2 years but I am planning to make the most of this position. So I'm in it for the long haul with them. They are making an investment in me, I am deeply committed to making their investment worthwhile.

They offered a little less than what I am currently earning (which I was expecting), my plan is to ask if they would match my current pay. The only bad question is the one you didn't ask.

108 applicants for a rural hospital position? Wow.

 

[mentos]

108 applicants for a rural hospital position? Wow.

Wow! Imagine being picked one out of 108.

 

[Farmgurl20]

Wow! Imagine being picked one out of 108.

Lol my DM got 100 application for pharmacist position this year. they only hired 2 people and I was one of them. Lol it’s crazy that retail has gotten selective this days.

 

[Farmgurl20]

Thank you, truly!!



They are covering my re-location cost and there will be a recruitment bonus. I am beyond ecstatic and it's already off to a great start. They even bought up negotiations before I had to, will keep you guys posted!

Congrats!!!

 

[Marzapan]

I actually think this might be the new pharmacy school faculty/dean strategy on SDN. Make dummy accounts, don't deny saturation, and instead make posts about "got a job, there were 100 applicants but if I can do it, then so can you!"

It's awful fishy that most of the folks who ARE getting jobs in this job market (if everyone was telling the truth) are posting on SDN, no?

 

[Farmgurl20]

I actually think this might be the new pharmacy school faculty/dean strategy on SDN. Make dummy accounts, don't deny saturation, and instead make posts about "got a job, there were 100 applicants but if I can do it, then so can you!"

It's awful fishy that most of the folks who ARE getting jobs in this job market (if everyone was telling the truth) are posting on SDN, no?

Lol in no way I was trying to imply that if I could do it, you could do it too. If you look at my previous post I have always expressed that how awful pharmacy job market is and how bad the job conditions are there. All I was trying to say that every one has gotten selective these days even retail.

 

[Sine Cura]

Ocean waves will wipe out any names in the sand

 

[Marzapan]

Lol in no way I was trying to imply that if I could do it, you could do it too. If you look at my previous post I have always expressed that how awful pharmacy job market is and how bad the job conditions are there. All I was trying to say that every one has gotten selective these days even retail.

Yeah I was being half sarcastic. Half because there is a very real possibility that this is already happening. Not calling you out specifically because there are plenty of others with similar posts/comments.

 

[Ladyg228]

Congrats!!!

Thank you!!!

Lol my DM got 100 application for pharmacist position this year. they only hired 2 people and I was one of them. Lol it’s crazy that retail has gotten selective this days.

My DM said they got over 30 applications in 2 days and they took down the posting after that. They didn't even consider anyone who didn't either already have 1 year of experience or had previous experience with the company (all the while hiring at "introductory rate") He said I beat out the competition because I had previous experience with the company and inpatient experience to "bridge patient care between inpatient and retail."

It's a competitive market out there. From my class, about ~20 people are doing residency because they didn't want to get stuck in retail and/or didn't see any other option. The one's who got hired on for retail positions were the one who were already working as an intern for those companies. Plenty of classmates left without a position.

It's also a tough market out there post-residency, Last years PGY-1s at my old hospital just took a pharmacy manager job at WAGs after completing residency. The other PGY-1 had to relocate to a rural part of the state for inpatient position.

 

[Hedgehog32]

I actually think this might be the new pharmacy school faculty/dean strategy on SDN. Make dummy accounts, don't deny saturation, and instead make posts about "got a job, there were 100 applicants but if I can do it, then so can you!"

It's awful fishy that most of the folks who ARE getting jobs in this job market (if everyone was telling the truth) are posting on SDN, no?

What's your take on the folks who tried to make the point a month or two back on here to me that someone's inability to get a pharmacist job always is a result of some shortcoming with the applicant themselves, and that external factors like job market saturation are basically irrelevant?

 

[Hedgehog32]

Thank you!!!


My DM said they got over 30 applications in 2 days and they took down the posting after that. They didn't even consider anyone who didn't either already have 1 year of experience or had previous experience with the company (all the while hiring at "introductory rate") He said I beat out the competition because I had previous experience with the company and inpatient experience to "bridge patient care between inpatient and retail."

It's a competitive market out there. From my class, about ~20 people are doing residency because they didn't want to get stuck in retail and/or didn't see any other option. The one's who got hired on for retail positions were the one who were already working as an intern for those companies. Plenty of classmates left without a position.

It's also a tough market out there post-residency, Last years PGY-1s at my old hospital just took a pharmacy manager job at WAGs after completing residency. The other PGY-1 had to relocate to a rural part of the state for inpatient position.

What really sucks is hearing about pharmacists with plenty of inpatient work experience getting laid off from their inpatient jobs and having no choice but to take retail jobs with CVS/Walgreens. I know a pharmacist who graduated in 2012, worked for 2 years as an inpatient staff pharmacist at a local hospital, and got a job as DOP at a small specialty hospital in ATL in 2014, and she was fired a few months back. It literally took her ~3 months to get a PRN job with CVS out in the middle of nowhere. The scary thing is that she considers herself lucky to have gotten even that "opportunity."

That's yet another thing that sucks about pharmacy; even if you manage to get a job you can tolerate (I.e., not retail), there's a scary high chance that you'll eventually get laid off and have no other opportunities aside from retail jobs in undesirable areas... and even worse, you'd most likely have to take a substantial pay cut for it.

 

[Marzapan]

What's your take on the folks who tried to make the point a month or two back on here to me that someone's inability to get a pharmacist job always is a result of some shortcoming with the applicant themselves, and that external factors like job market saturation are basically irrelevant?

I don't think external factors like the job market are irrelevant, but it's more that if you approach the job search starting with a defeatist attitude then that runs contrarian to what you're supposed to be doing which is grinding and hustling to get a job, and the defeatist attitude vibe is what you gave off.

I draw a parallel to one of Dave Ramsey's episodes where he says that the problem most people have with investing is that they spend a whole lot of time talking about investing and stocks and finances but don't actually invest money themselves, which defeats the whole point. Similarly, you've posted a lot about saturation and talking to recruiters and the such, but knowledge about the saturation and how people are looking for residency-trained pharmacists only etc. don't amount to anything that can actually make your resume more competitive in the job market. Ask yourself this - what have you done in the last 6 months that will bring value to an employer which you didn't have before? Maybe you now have more coding experience or something, but what if you had channeled all that time researching CS programs into working on skills for pharmacist jobs, especially for non-retail pharmacist jobs since you were opting to go down that path?

 

[Hedgehog32]

I don't think external factors like the job market are irrelevant, but it's more that if you approach the job search starting with a defeatist attitude then that runs contrarian to what you're supposed to be doing which is grinding and hustling to get a job, and the defeatist attitude vibe is what you gave off.

I draw a parallel to one of Dave Ramsey's episodes where he says that the problem most people have with investing is that they spend a whole lot of time talking about investing and stocks and finances but don't actually invest money themselves, which defeats the whole point. Similarly, you've posted a lot about saturation and talking to recruiters and the such, but knowledge about the saturation and how people are looking for residency-trained pharmacists only etc. don't amount to anything that can actually make your resume more competitive in the job market. Ask yourself this - what have you done in the last 6 months that will bring value to an employer which you didn't have before? Maybe you now have more coding experience or something, but what if you had channeled all that time researching CS programs into working on skills for pharmacist jobs, especially for non-retail pharmacist jobs since you were opting to go down that path?

I see your point, but -- and to be fair, I realize this might not be the case with the majority of hospitals outside of my region -- when literally all hospitals are mandating residency training or experience (with some hospital DOPs now stating that they won't even hire experienced pharmacists who don't have residency training), what else can an inexperienced/non-residency-trained new grad do to become competitive for jobs they don't even meet the minimum eligibility criteria for, short of either continuing to network and getting a random lucky break or applying to residency programs?

 

[Marzapan]

I see your point, but -- and to be fair, I realize this might not be the case with the majority of hospitals outside of my region -- when literally all hospitals are mandating residency training or experience (with some hospital DOPs now stating that they won't even hire experienced pharmacists who don't have residency training), what else can an inexperienced/non-residency-trained new grad do to become competitive for jobs they don't even meet the minimum eligibility criteria for, short of either continuing to network and getting a random lucky break or applying to residency programs?

That's where most students and pharmacists fail to realize that networking is a way of life/your professional career and compartmentalize the concept into something where you're either "doing" it or you're not, which is the wrong way of looking at it. Networking is something that should be actively done at all times (to varying degrees) and it is something that you should be doing well in advance of "needing" it.

I'll share my own story as an example to demonstrate how I "networked" as a student when I realized early on that this profession was turning into a crapshoot. I will describe it as "taking advantage of everything that nobody else was doing or had interest in," or "doing the exact opposite of what everyone tells you to do to stand out." This meant that:

1) I went to health fairs or events that nobody went to, or signed up to do things that nobody else was interested in which translated to more one on one "quality" time with preceptors

2) I joined school clubs that nobody was interested in and ran for leadership positions in those orgs, to more easily boost my resume with the right credentials (instead of joining meta clubs like APhA and being one of the 10 people to run for president... good luck with that rat race)

3) I took interdisciplinary elective courses that pharmacy faculty taught, but no other pharmacy students took which made me REALLY stand out

4) I awkwardly cold-called pharmacies about internships/work opportunities instead of going to school internship fairs because I knew that I wasn't going to win the popularity contests so I wasn't going to rat race against my class, and ended up getting an internship without even having to apply/interview for a position

5) I joined and attended local pharmacist organizations and was one of the few students who went to not just meetings but events, which again made me stand out

6) I attended as many professional conferences as possible, which many students dismiss as a "waste of money" or "waste of time" but I saw as another opportunity to network when other students aren't. Specifically, I forced myself to go talk to exhibitors and poster presenters at conferences and not simply "walk around aimlessly" or attend sessions (which you really shouldn't be doing as a student anyways since you don't need CE credits)

7) Probably the most important detail is that I was on message boards such as SDN or Reddit approximately 0% of the time while in school because I was too busy trying to set myself up for success instead of venting in an echo chamber about how miserable everything is in this profession. I am posting again now because I've "made it," but don't let my activity fool you for where my priorities were at during my school years.

Did I get exactly what I wanted during pharmacy school in terms of experience, leverage the majority of the relationships I've developed through above into "jobs" or "opportunities" or even expect to get some sort of "return on investment" based on what I participated in or who I helped? No. But at the end of the day I am a fairly happily employed pharmacist and I owe it to myself for hustling my tail off instead of complaining during school. Luck is luck, but I made sure to do everything in my power as a student to manufacture some of that luck.

 

[Wickett]

What's your take on the folks who tried to make the point a month or two back on here to me that someone's inability to get a pharmacist job always is a result of some shortcoming with the applicant themselves, and that external factors like job market saturation are basically irrelevant?

You got criticized because you only wanted the higher prestige/non retail jobs without doing any of the minimum work required to get that type of job (aka residency). No one said the job market is irrelevant, you just got little sympathy because of being picky without doing anything discernible to differentiate yourself from other applicants.

 

[PharmtoCS]

You got criticized because you only wanted the higher prestige/non retail jobs without doing any of the minimum work required to get that type of job (aka residency). No one said the job market is irrelevant, you just got little sympathy because of being picky without doing anything discernible to differentiate yourself from other applicants.

tl;dr a choosing beggar.

 

[TheBlaah]

You got criticized because you only wanted the higher prestige/non retail jobs without doing any of the minimum work required to get that type of job (aka residency). No one said the job market is irrelevant, you just got little sympathy because of being picky without doing anything discernible to differentiate yourself from other applicants.

As far as I know, he he hasn't even taken the NAPLEX or MPJE yet.

 

[Hedgehog32]

That's where most students and pharmacists fail to realize that networking is a way of life/your professional career and compartmentalize the concept into something where you're either "doing" it or you're not, which is the wrong way of looking at it. Networking is something that should be actively done at all times (to varying degrees) and it is something that you should be doing well in advance of "needing" it.

I'll share my own story as an example to demonstrate how I "networked" as a student when I realized early on that this profession was turning into a crapshoot. I will describe it as "taking advantage of everything that nobody else was doing or had interest in," or "doing the exact opposite of what everyone tells you to do to stand out." This meant that:

1) I went to health fairs or events that nobody went to, or signed up to do things that nobody else was interested in which translated to more one on one "quality" time with preceptors

2) I joined school clubs that nobody was interested in and ran for leadership positions in those orgs, to more easily boost my resume with the right credentials (instead of joining meta clubs like APhA and being one of the 10 people to run for president... good luck with that rat race)

3) I took interdisciplinary elective courses that pharmacy faculty taught, but no other pharmacy students took which made me REALLY stand out

4) I awkwardly cold-called pharmacies about internships/work opportunities instead of going to school internship fairs because I knew that I wasn't going to win the popularity contests so I wasn't going to rat race against my class, and ended up getting an internship without even having to apply/interview for a position

5) I joined and attended local pharmacist organizations and was one of the few students who went to not just meetings but events, which again made me stand out

6) I attended as many professional conferences as possible, which many students dismiss as a "waste of money" or "waste of time" but I saw as another opportunity to network when other students aren't. Specifically, I forced myself to go talk to exhibitors and poster presenters at conferences and not simply "walk around aimlessly" or attend sessions (which you really shouldn't be doing as a student anyways since you don't need CE credits)

7) Probably the most important detail is that I was on message boards such as SDN or Reddit approximately 0% of the time while in school because I was too busy trying to set myself up for success instead of venting in an echo chamber about how miserable everything is in this profession. I am posting again now because I've "made it," but don't let my activity fool you for where my priorities were at during my school years.

Did I get exactly what I wanted during pharmacy school in terms of experience, leverage the majority of the relationships I've developed through above into "jobs" or "opportunities" or even expect to get some sort of "return on investment" based on what I participated in or who I helped? No. But at the end of the day I am a fairly happily employed pharmacist and I owe it to myself for hustling my tail off instead of complaining during school. Luck is luck, but I made sure to do everything in my power as a student to manufacture some of that luck.

I think for me, my passion/enthusiasm and general interest in pharmacy as a career weren't strong enough to motivate me to do more than get an intern job and be passively involved in one or two student groups. I think pharmacy was always a "process of elimination" choice for me, and so I subsequently would analyze potential jobs (post-graduation) on the basis of whether or not I could simply see myself tolerating the work. After completing my retail rotations and realizing I'd be miserable in such a job, I set my sights on getting a hospital staffing position, although even that was based on me finding the job to be passively tolerable but still not something I actively "wanted" to do.

I guess I'm an example of what other people have remarked on: as salaries, job availability, entry-level criteria, etc. have all either plummeted or gotten more stringent, the people who went to pharmacy school because it seemed like a pragmatic choice that they could simply make do with are finding themselves in a tough position now that those aforementioned incentives are essentially moot at this point, and especially since they don't have an inherent interest in the work that motivates them to push forward. At this point, I honestly don't even think I'd take a hospital pharmacist job if it was offered to me, simply because everything about CS as a career (including the downsides) appeals to me so much more that I'd rather take the "two birds in the bush," so to speak.

 

[Hedgehog32]

You got criticized because you only wanted the higher prestige/non retail jobs without doing any of the minimum work required to get that type of job (aka residency). No one said the job market is irrelevant, you just got little sympathy because of being picky without doing anything discernible to differentiate yourself from other applicants.

The fact that a basic hospital staffing job is now considered a "higher prestige" pharmacy job to the extent that it requires residency training as an entry-level criteria (although not because the nature of the work actually commands the extra training) kind of proves my point, especially since none of the pharmacists I worked with at my intern job were residency-trained. For someone who honestly just doesn't have a strong passion for pharmacy, it just seems like too much of a sucker's proposition.

tl;dr a choosing beggar.

I don't really feel like censoring names/locations, but I could show you screenshots of FB posts made by several of the former residents (graduated in June) of the program run by the hospital I used to work for in which they say "they'd even be willing to move to X for a job at this point!" and so on. So I may sound like a beggar for having the audacity to want a hospital staffing job without completing a residency first, but there's also no shortage of residency program graduates who are stuck begging for the exact same thing.

As far as I know, he he hasn't even taken the NAPLEX or MPJE yet.

Nope, and at this point I've made inroads into the transition to CS and wouldn't have the time or motivation to study for the tests anyways. Looks like the pharmacy degree is just going to have to end up being an expensive write-off.

 

[Amomentintime]

Thank you!!!


My DM said they got over 30 applications in 2 days and they took down the posting after that. They didn't even consider anyone who didn't either already have 1 year of experience or had previous experience with the company (all the while hiring at "introductory rate") He said I beat out the competition because I had previous experience with the company and inpatient experience to "bridge patient care between inpatient and retail."

It's a competitive market out there. From my class, about ~20 people are doing residency because they didn't want to get stuck in retail and/or didn't see any other option. The one's who got hired on for retail positions were the one who were already working as an intern for those companies. Plenty of classmates left without a position.

It's also a tough market out there post-residency, Last years PGY-1s at my old hospital just took a pharmacy manager job at WAGs after completing residency. The other PGY-1 had to relocate to a rural part of the state for inpatient position.

Hi! Congratulations! That's incredibly awesome! May I ask how long after you applied until you got the interview and then the job offer and start date?

 

[Ladyg228]

Hi! Congratulations! That's incredibly awesome! May I ask how long after you applied until you got the interview and then the job offer and start date?

Thank you!!!!
TBH, I have been applying for positions since April and then I updated my application after becoming licensed. I feel like I have filled out a mountain worth of applications at this point. As long as there wasn't anything in a job posting that specifically barred me from applying, I attempted it. Only difference between failure and success is that next attempt. I have to say that never in my life have I faced this much rejection, it should be my middle name at this point. I am still applying at any openings that catches my eye. I only accepted a tentative offer and until my background and security clearance goes through, HR won't send a final offer with an official start date.

If I remember correctly, I was referred for the position back in June after I become licensed. Was selected for an interview 2-3 weeks ago. Interviewed last week, followed up with second interview. I accepted the tentative offer officially on Monday. Now it's a test of patience and I haven't gotten a single wink of decent sleep since.

My supervisor to be said he was really impressed by 2 minute introduction and the fact I had researched the facility and the area.
I reached out to one of my classmates who is from that area and she also made a introduction to another girl that had completed a rotation at that specific site. Through a different contact, it just so happen a clinical pharmacist at his site was a former employee. It gave additional opportunities for questions and prepared me to address interview questions in the best way possible. Plus, it helped rapport and the conversation just flowed naturally. They are excited that I am onboarding with an idea of what to expect and my own goals for this position.

Another thing that I think is critical to my success is that I have strong and incredibly supportive references. They bat above and beyond for me, it's so important to build your network. My main two references are both relationships I have fostered since beginning of pharmacy school and I made it a point to complete a rotation with both of them. I mirrored their work schedules (nights, days, 12's, 10's). I put in the extra effort to set up the specific rotations and even traveled out of state to complete one of them. It was important they could speak to both my personal and professional attributes.

 

[Marzapan]

I think for me, my passion/enthusiasm and general interest in pharmacy as a career weren't strong enough to motivate me to do more than get an intern job and be passively involved in one or two student groups. I think pharmacy was always a "process of elimination" choice for me, and so I subsequently would analyze potential jobs (post-graduation) on the basis of whether or not I could simply see myself tolerating the work. After completing my retail rotations and realizing I'd be miserable in such a job, I set my sights on getting a hospital staffing position, although even that was based on me finding the job to be passively tolerable but still not something I actively "wanted" to do.

I guess I'm an example of what other people have remarked on: as salaries, job availability, entry-level criteria, etc. have all either plummeted or gotten more stringent, the people who went to pharmacy school because it seemed like a pragmatic choice that they could simply make do with are finding themselves in a tough position now that those aforementioned incentives are essentially moot at this point, and especially since they don't have an inherent interest in the work that motivates them to push forward. At this point, I honestly don't even think I'd take a hospital pharmacist job if it was offered to me, simply because everything about CS as a career (including the downsides) appeals to me so much more that I'd rather take the "two birds in the bush," so to speak.

I wasn't "passionate" about pharmacy either, but I wasn't going to wait for affirmation or someone to tell me what to do before I did it. There is a very clear line that needs to be drawn between "pursuing something due to passion" and "pursuing something because you need a job to pay the bills." You have been using the excuse of "not being passionate enough to do this or that" to justify what I can only interpret as a half-hearted approach during pharmacy school until your final year, whereas I was incentivized to do things in the hopes of getting an ultimate economic return on investment. So I wasn't dissuaded that I made a "wrong" career choice at the time because even if I wasn't passionate about it, it was still tolerable and I don't think most people will "find their true passion" in their entire working careers anyways which helped give me perspective. Just look around you - do you think garbage collectors are "passionate" about their jobs? The store associate at Macy's? Starbucks baristas? What about the administrative assistants at any company? Or uber drivers? If the average American cannot "find their true passion" or will never get an opportunity to explore, yet are still hustling despite that, then what makes you think you can beat the odds? Do you think a uber driver who needs to drive to make ends meet will say "well gee I can't do this because this isn't my passion so I'm just going to not drive anymore and wait until the "perfect" opportunity comes along. In the meantime I will likely go bankrupt and homeless because I won't work to pay the bills unless it's the "perfect" job but due to my own pride and self-interests I am "above" needing to hustle"? Such thinking is laughable.

 

[Wickett]

The fact that a basic hospital staffing job is now considered a "higher prestige" pharmacy job to the extent that it requires residency training as an entry-level criteria (although not because the nature of the work actually commands the extra training) kind of proves my point, especially since none of the pharmacists I worked with at my intern job were residency-trained. For someone who honestly just doesn't have a strong passion for pharmacy, it just seems like too much of a sucker's proposition.

I don't know what to tell you. That was the reality back when I graduated in 2016, and it is especially true now. You should've known better. You've painted yourself into a corner and I have no idea why you went to pharmacy school then.

 

[Ladyg228]

I don't know what to tell you. That was the reality back when I graduated in 2016, and it is especially true now. You should've known better. You've painted yourself into a corner and I have no idea why you went to pharmacy school then.

I have to agree..... Every school I interviewed at specifically asked why you're pursuing a career in pharmacy. I would highly suspect you were also asked this prior to admission. Like any job, pharmacy is what you make of it. If you give up at the first sign of a road block, you aren't going to be very successful. No matter what field you change to. I implore you to do some soul-searching and self-reflection before you make another investment of your time, efforts, or money. Youth comes with an expiration date, that is as guaranteed as death! @Hedgehog32

 

[Rockinacoustic]

The fact that a basic hospital staffing job is now considered a "higher prestige" pharmacy job to the extent that it requires residency training as an entry-level criteria (although not because the nature of the work actually commands the extra training) kind of proves my point, especially since none of the pharmacists I worked with at my intern job were residency-trained. For someone who honestly just doesn't have a strong passion for pharmacy, it just seems like too much of a sucker's proposition.

I'm not sure why you're crapping on residency when it sounds like you're doing the tech equivalent of a residency from the other thread:

For anyone who is interested in pursuing a career in CS who doesn't want to go back to school, there are a few companies out there (FDM Group, Genesis10) that will pay you to complete their bootcamp program in exchange for you working for one of their clients (mostly fintech companies) for two years afterwards for a reduced salary. The reduced salary part sucks but it's a guaranteed software engineering job and experience.