Best/worst Feeding Mistakes

[frozen_canadian]

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When I was in 1st grade, my teacher decided it would be fun to incubate some eggs and hatch chicks. When the chicks hatched, all she fed them was rolled oats (oat meal). Needless to say, many of them died, but I got to take home and raise the few that survived and now I'm a chicken enthusiast 🙂

Just an aside - when I was in pre vet our poultry professor got a call from a school teacher. She had purchased eggs from a grocery store and had been incubating them for 'a few months' with her class. She wanted to know why they hadn't hatched yet....

 

[LoungingMarten]

Just an aside - when I was in pre vet our poultry professor got a call from a school teacher. She had purchased eggs from a grocery store and had been incubating them for 'a few months' with her class. She wanted to know why they hadn't hatched yet....

See, this is why we need to focus on teaching more about agriculture in schools... I can only imagine what your poultry professor had to say!

 

[david594]

Actually my opinions come from working with one of the top vets in the country at one of the top vet schools in the country. He's the one that calls it 'science death'.

Cool, what vet school did you work for?

Now lets continue to compare apples and oranges here. But if I had stones in my urethra I think I would prefer the food intended to help address that condition even if I "crave a taste of the wild".

 

[PM2009]

Cool, what vet school did you work for?

Now lets continue to compare apples and oranges here. But if I had stones in my urethra I think I would prefer the food intended to help address that condition even if I "crave a taste of the wild".

Hmmm..did you not read my post? Even if those foods did help the conditions they claim to help the food itself has zero nutrition and can be potentially very harmful. The soy and corn is preserved with known carcinogens that are banned from use in human products because of the strong link with extremely fast acting, deadly cancers. In addition, many of the rxn foods contain 'powdered cellulose' the technical term for sawdust or decomposing pulp. There are ways to get those 'special balance of minerals' AND provide good nutrition for the animals.

 

[dyachei]

Hmmm..did you not read my post? Even if those foods did help the conditions they claim to help the food itself has zero nutrition and can be potentially very harmful. The soy and corn is preserved with known carcinogens that are banned from use in human products because of the strong link with extremely fast acting, deadly cancers. In addition, many of the rxn foods contain 'powdered cellulose' the technical term for sawdust or decomposing pulp. There are ways to get those 'special balance of minerals' AND provide good nutrition for the animals.

I don't want to start a debate here, but be careful when you say things like this. Regardless of whether you agree with the results, most food companies HAVE done research on the food products. And not just palatability trials, but as to whether or not dogs on that food versus another food (usually in the same family, it's true) have shown results. The preservatives may or may not be carcinogens, according to the research I've seen. I just want to point out that there are 2 sides to every story and it's important to do your own research on both sides.

 

[PM2009]

We should be angry-at-pet-food buddies. 😍
It is so frustrating to sit back and watch owners paying premium prices for food that is mediocre at best, because they trusted their vet or the big brands. I lose a bit of respect for vets that only push Science Diet and the ethics involved in Hills and other companies supplying vet students with nutrition education makes me uneasy. I start to feel like a crazy conspiracy theorist, ranting and raving at any friend or family member who will listen.

On a lighter note, this is the best.

I've never seen that before! Very applicable to most of those dog food brands. I'm always so confused by all the vets and vet students that defend those brands. Is it brainwashing? Just reading the ingredient list and having more then one brain cell should tell you those foods are not healthy. I understand owners not really getting it b/c they trust their vets but it's just mind blowing that veterinary professionals don't put any kind of thought into the foods they sell. At least I hope that's the case otherwise they're just putting their bottom line over the health of the animals.

 

[PM2009]

I don't want to start a debate here, but be careful when you say things like this. Regardless of whether you agree with the results, most food companies HAVE done research on the food products. And not just palatability trials, but as to whether or not dogs on that food versus another food (usually in the same family, it's true) have shown results. The preservatives may or may not be carcinogens, according to the research I've seen. I just want to point out that there are 2 sides to every story and it's important to do your own research on both sides.

I agree, there are always two sides. From my research in addition to my work with veterinarians in private practices and university research settings I've formed my opinions. I just hope others put at least SOME thought into what they are feeding their pets regardless of what that ends up being.

Anyway, like I said earlier this is all my opinion. I just hope at least a few people will take a minute to really think about the food they're feeding and decide if it's the best choice for their particular animal.

 

[PicklePie]

Cool, what vet school did you work for?

Now lets continue to compare apples and oranges here. But if I had stones in my urethra I think I would prefer the food intended to help address that condition even if I "crave a taste of the wild".

Just to clarify my own position on things, I am not trying to compare apples to oranges at all. I don't think it is a matter of all Science Diet foods or other prescription diets being absolutely awful. There are certainly conditions that require a very specifically designed diet, such as urinary issues, and in those cases a prescription can be the best option.

But the average dog/cat is not medically dependent on a specially formulated prescription diet. When a vet decides to push those products exclusively, I think it is very unfortunate. I like walking into my vet's office and seeing a wide range of options to suit any taste or allergy, I know that each brand is there because of competitive quality. Grain-free foods and raw diets can be fantastic alternatives to corn and byproduct meal. I think providing more education to owners about all of the options rather than recommending from one range of products, engages them more and allows them to take responsibility for the health of their pet.

And even if you disagree with that, can we at least agree that brands like Ol Roy are horrible crap?

 

[twelvetigers]

And even if you disagree with that, can we at least agree that brands like Ol Roy are horrible crap?

Yes, absolutely.

 

[flyhi]

I am just curious....what IS everyone feeding their pets (dogs) then???

 

[Rorke]

Items consumed by dogs: A bath towel, a tampon, a light bulb, and nicotine patches.

This is not a terrible story, just humorous:
An obese cat came in to the clinic to address his weighty issue. The owner was told to give the cat a regimented amount of diet cat food. The next visit the cat had gained more weight! The owner claimed to be giving the diet food exactly as directed. However, it never occurred to the owner to stop feeding the cat two cans of Friskies after his cat polished off the diet cat food!

 

[DVMDream]

And even if you disagree with that, can we at least agree that brands like Ol Roy are horrible crap?

Yes, and if we can get a client to go from using Ol Roy to Science Diet that is a small step in the right direction. I have never worked at a vet clinic that sells OTC dog foods. We only sell rx foods and to those patients that need a rx food. Personally, my dogs get Nutro Natural Choice for seniors...and my 12 yo border collie mix has just recently shown signs of arthritis and is healthy otherwise including his teeth.

 

[Tech2Vet]

Actually...since we're on this topic, anyone know of a good free-range organic adult canine (and a feline one as well) diet in the states? When I was in the UK I started supplying one at my practice and clients loved it...and so did my dog. But, they were only local, and I can't find a suitable one here. I have used wellness/halo's spot's stew/organix and a couple other high quality brands but I am constantly looking for one to recommend to clients and to use with my pets. Cheers!

 

[Ben and Me]

Is it brainwashing?

You're right. I'm not smart enough to see past the Hills marketing. They gave me that free backpack, now I'll only ever recommend their products. 🙄

The simple fact is that Hills is the company that pays for most of the nutrition research. I do wish there was more nutrition research going on in veterinary schools, but I do believe we're moving in that direction. Yes, Hills does give lunch talks, but we also have an independent nutrition class here - and I think most of the other veterinary schools do as well.

I find most of this rabid hatred of food companies by lay people to be very offputting, especially since most of it is based on conspiracy theory websites without any peer-reviewed, published studies to back it up.

For what it's worth, I have my dog on Innova...though I'm not sure what I'm going to do now that they've discontinued their feeding program.

 

[Whyevernot55]

An actual question, because I'll be the first to admit my own ignorance about canine and feline products: What about the AAFCO standards? I've heard many vets say that in general, you should look for the AAFCO approval label on cat and dog foods to ensure that they are safe and good quality.

 

[PicklePie]

Yes, and if we can get a client to go from using Ol Roy to Science Diet that is a small step in the right direction. I have never worked at a vet clinic that sells OTC dog foods. We only sell rx foods and to those patients that need a rx food.

Yep, I can agree with that. While I do not think that it is the best, Science Diet is definitely not the worst out there. The clinic I worked at that sold only SD did a lot of over the counter sales, they went through a huge amount of the dry foods. Maybe that isn't the norm, but it felt more like trying to make a few bucks than trying to improve the quality of life. I am not saying that every vet clinic that carries it is like that, but when a vet only recommends SD it leaves a bad taste.

You're right. I'm not smart enough to see past the Hills marketing. They gave me that free backpack, now I'll only ever recommend their products. 🙄

The simple fact is that Hills is the company that pays for most of the nutrition research.

You have to be pretty idealistic to think that no one is swayed by their marketing. It is marketing, if it did not work to some extent it would not be worth their time and effort. Since you feed Innova, it is obvious that you put a lot of thought into what your pets are eating. But just because you are smart enough to do your research and avoid falling head over heels for Hills, does not mean that everyone is immune.

 

[PM2009]

You have to be pretty idealistic to think that no one is swayed by their marketing. It is marketing, if it did not work to some extent it would not be worth their time and effort. Since you feed Innova, it is obvious that you put a lot of thought into what your pets are eating. But just because you are smart enough to do your research and avoid falling head over heels for Hills, does not mean that everyone is immune.

Exactly. That's pretty much what I was trying to say but couldn't figure out how to word it.

An honest question for a few of you though: what about those foods looks good to you? What in the ingredients makes you think they are okay foods for a dog or cat to live on for a long period of time? Leaving out all of the controversial stuff such as chemical preservatives, etc and just focusing on what the food consists of and ignoring the marketing.

 

[cowgirla]

For what it's worth, I have my dog on Innova...though I'm not sure what I'm going to do now that they've discontinued their feeding program.

Oh no, are they really?? I didn't know that. That's an awesome food, and if my dog wasnt doing so well on the one she's on, that would be the next brand I'd consider. Are any of their foods still going to be available?

 

[PM2009]

I am just curious....what IS everyone feeding their pets (dogs) then???

Some very good/great food brands:

Blue Wilderness
Go Natural
TOTW
Innova EVO
Instinct
Orijen
Wellness Core
Canidae
Chicken Soup
Fromm

There are others that are very good as well, these are just the brands I'm familiar with. Not every brand will work for every dog. You have to really look at them and figure out what would work best. Blue Wilderness, for example, is a great food but it's just too rich/high energy for my house dogs. They seem to do best on TOTW and Orijen although Orijen can be hard to find.

ETA: This is a pretty good site to get a feel for good/bad/okay dog food formulas. I don't agree with some of their opinions but for the most part it's an okay resource to give you a basic idea:
http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/

 

[Ben and Me]

Oh no, are they really?? I didn't know that. That's an awesome food, and if my dog wasnt doing so well on the one she's on, that would be the next brand I'd consider. Are any of their foods still going to be available?

Just in case I was unclear, they are going to continue making dog food without any change - they've just discontinued the program where vet students got free food. I'll probably keep her on it as I've been happy, and she eats so little of it (lab - gains weight on air!) that a 30# bag lasts me about 3 months.

She also gets a scoop of GLC powder (for arthritis prevention) and green beans or pumpkin on top, Hills T/D as treats, and the occasional Hills Skin and Coat treat.

An honest question for a few of you though: what about those foods looks good to you? What in the ingredients makes you think they are okay foods for a dog or cat to live on for a long period of time? Leaving out all of the controversial stuff such as chemical preservatives, etc and just focusing on what the food consists of and ignoring the marketing.

Yes, some of the ingredients do make me uncomfortable, if only because they're highly processed, which is why my pup is on Innova. I try not to eat a ton of processed foods myself. I feel much healthier when I don't. However, until I see a peer reviewed study out there (and if there is already one in a reputable journal, feel free to point it out to me) proving that the ingredients are harmful, I am not going to bash a company that does a lot to support veterinary students and does a substantial amount of research into the nutritional requirements of various medical conditions.

I also don't think that most dogs need to be on a grain-free diet. Dogs are omnivores. The dogs I've seen on a grain-free diet (owned by your average pet owner) were generally morbidly obese, which is much more of a proven threat to their health than corn may be. Most owners just aren't comfortable feeding the correct amount of food, and when there is a grain in there, there is a little bit more room for error with the overfeeding.

 

[cowgirla]

Just in case I was unclear, they are going to continue making dog food without any change - they've just discontinued the program where vet students got free food. I'll probably keep her on it as I've been happy, and she eats so little of it (lab - gains weight on air!) that a 30# bag lasts me about 3 months.

Oh good, you scared me!

Not to change the subject, but what brands typically have these feeding programs for vet students?
Not sure where I'll be attending yet, but am curious about that, especially for great brands like Innova

 

[dyachei]

Oh good, you scared me!

Not to change the subject, but what brands typically have these feeding programs for vet students?
Not sure where I'll be attending yet, but am curious about that, especially for great brands like Innova

Hill's, Purina, and Iams (only at Ohio). Natura just stopped this semester. Oxbow has a discount program for students (small mammal food) as does Lafeber (birds).

 

[PicklePie]

I also don't think that most dogs need to be on a grain-free diet. Dogs are omnivores. The dogs I've seen on a grain-free diet (owned by your average pet owner) were generally morbidly obese, which is much more of a proven threat to their health than corn may be. Most owners just aren't comfortable feeding the correct amount of food, and when there is a grain in there, there is a little bit more room for error with the overfeeding.

Dogs are indeed omnivores, I am not sure how this is at odds with the idea of a grain-free diet that utilizes potato or brown rice instead of corn. Maybe it is a regional thing, but I have seen way more morbidly obese dogs being fed things like kibblesnbits or ol roy than ones being fed Natural Balance or Holistic Select. Off the top of my head I cannot remember meeting any particularly porky grain-free dogs. I would think that an owner with enough knowledge to pick the premium food would understand portion control, but that is just an assumption.

 

[twelvetigers]

Does any other brand besides Hill's have a low residue type food for stone control or reduction? I have no personal qualms with Hill's, but I would at least consider something else given the chance, but my pup has had one $3000 surgery already and I'm not too keen on another. Do I have any other options here? The canned S/D really does help when her bladder stones appear bigger in a radiograph. She has to pee every two hours, though.

 

[david594]

. I would think that an owner with enough knowledge to pick the premium food would understand portion control, but that is just an assumption.

Absolutely! And you know what they call that? A SELECTION BIAS!

Which makes these non-scientific comparisons between foods completely invalid!

 

[aspiringDVM]

Does any other brand besides Hill's have a low residue type food for stone control or reduction? I have no personal qualms with Hill's, but I would at least consider something else given the chance, but my pup has had one $3000 surgery already and I'm not too keen on another. Do I have any other options here? The canned S/D really does help when her bladder stones appear bigger in a radiograph. She has to pee every two hours, though.

Royal Canin has Urinary SO, which alot of clients and my coworkers have been really happy with for both dogs and cats. You do have the same problem of needing to take them out thirty times a day though 🙂

 

[sumstorm]

We should be angry-at-pet-food buddies. 😍
It is so frustrating to sit back and watch owners paying premium prices for food that is mediocre at best, because they trusted their vet or the big brands. I lose a bit of respect for vets that only push Science Diet and the ethics involved in Hills and other companies supplying vet students with nutrition education makes me uneasy. I start to feel like a crazy conspiracy theorist, ranting and raving at any friend or family member who will listen.

I love listening to random individuals, including prevets, gripe about the quality of nutrition education of vet students or say it is from vet food companies. I mean, has anyone actually checked what is or isn't true before making such comments?

 

[sumstorm]

I've never seen that before! Very applicable to most of those dog food brands. I'm always so confused by all the vets and vet students that defend those brands. Is it brainwashing? Just reading the ingredient list and having more then one brain cell should tell you those foods are not healthy. I understand owners not really getting it b/c they trust their vets but it's just mind blowing that veterinary professionals don't put any kind of thought into the foods they sell. At least I hope that's the case otherwise they're just putting their bottom line over the health of the animals.

research 'splitting ingredients' and some stuff starts to make sense. I have also seen some 'high quality' foods with ingredients like 'onions' in them, yet no one seems to question that.

I feed raw (with nutritional analysis) to 1 out of 6 dogs and differnt kibbles to the rest, including one of the brands being denigrated. I have taken courses in nutrition and attended seminars on both sides of the debate before vet school.

 

[VeganSoprano]

Personally, I don't believe there is only one best food. My cats mostly eat Evo dry since it's the least expensive of the grain free brands I have easy access to. As for canned, they get a variety. I look for grain free, low carbohydrate foods and mostly avoid foods that use fish as the primary protein sources. Mostly I end up using Evo chicken and turkey, Wellness, Nature's Variety, and several of the Merrick flavors.

For me, while I prefer to avoid excessive carbohydrates in any form, I prefer root veggies over grains because they tend to be higher in micronutrients.

For dogs, though, I think a higher carbohydrate content is acceptable. The quality of ingredients still matters, though. Brown rice is better than brewer's rice, for example.

 

[Coquette22]

When prescription diets are called for, I prefer Medi-Cal/Royal Canin over Hill's any day. I just can't get over the ingredients in Hill's diets. I just can't accept that corn should be the bulk of a dog's diet, and certainly not for a cat.

My own animals eat Orijen/Acana for the two dogs, and Acana/Orijen/Taste of the Wild for the cat. My sister's new puppy is on Innova.

 

[PicklePie]

I love listening to random individuals, including prevets, gripe about the quality of nutrition education of vet students or say it is from vet food companies. I mean, has anyone actually checked what is or isn't true before making such comments?

I am not just griping about the quality of education, I am commenting on the ethics of a food manufacturer funding nutritional education. Even if their food is fantastic, I think that there is a bit of conflict of interest when the brand is so involved in funding students. I also think a vet should recommend a variety of healthful foods rather than one brand. Like VeganSoprano, I do not think there is one best food so I do not think that it makes sense to limit yourself.

But my main problem is not with Hills, in the grand scheme of things that is just a pet peeve. The thing that makes me rant and rave is the big brands with loads of advertising and very little nutrition to back it up. The fact that probably every pet owner has seen ads for friskies or kibblesnbits without realizing that they are mediocre at best. A lot of well meaning pet owners are unwittingly buying low-grade food just because the dog on tv looks happy. I think that is a serious problem, more so than the fact that Hills gives students sandwiches and chips at some silly presentation. 😉

I may be a "random individual" and even a lowly prevet at this point, but I have the right to have my opinion. I am happy to be proven wrong by well educated people with rational arguments and learn something new in the process.

 

[sumstorm]

I am not just griping about the quality of education, I am commenting on the ethics of a food manufacturer funding nutritional education.

I may be a "random individual" and even a lowly prevet at this point, but I have the right to have my opinion. I am happy to be proven wrong by well educated people with rational arguments and learn something new in the process.

First, as far as I know, vet schools and undergrad nutritional courses are NOT funded by any of the food companies. If you have evidence otherwise, please share it. I paid a lot of money for the nutrition course I took just to get into vet school, and I pay a lot for my vet school tuition. If Hills, Purina, Nutro, or anyother manufacture if covering that cost, I would like to know about it. That is a major claim to make. Unfortunately, this is the fifth time I have heard it in the past year. Generally, that indicates that some person somewhere wrote about it on a forum or blog or some other insightful article, and people, even those who should be able to easily research such information like a pre-vet such as yourself, chose to believe it without asking any additional questions. I actually read the internet article that was linked to when a friend that I had a lot of respect for said the same thing during a training seminar. Obviously, since someone published it online, it must be true. Hills, Purina, Nutro, Bravo, and a host of other food companies have presented information on their product lines at our school. However, that is far different than FUNDING nutritional education. I suppose we also shouldn’t have info sessions on other products or procedures we might use or encounter in practice; which would mean the demo of a specific knee surgery wouldn’t be allowed, nor would the information on obtaining loans for practice start up, nor info on obtaining health insurance. Then again, we shouldn’t let acupuncturists, trainers, or anyone else that might sway our opinion on anything come to our school and present. Either way, there is a big difference between a presentation at lunch by a company (I am pretty sure any company that wanted to could get presentation time here through one club or another) and the nutritional courses taken to attend or while at vet school.

You are entitled to your opinion, but don’t you have a responsibility to back it up? All I am asking for is documentation that any major food company has paid for my nutrition course. If you don’t have that, then why spread the information? It devalues the education that vets receive (don’t listen to your vet, the ‘man’ taught them everything they know), and there is a presumption that you KNOW about vet school nutritional education and that you know far more than vet nutritionists and nutritionists that teach such courses. Maybe you do…perhaps you already have a DVM and/or PhD in nutrition, I don’t know, but if so, back up what you are saying with documentation. I realize you were not the one who sighted a vet expert, but to me that is a similar issue; name the expert the info comes from.

I do see the value for both sides of the argument, but I also realize that most vets can’t stock multiple brands of food because doing so costs them money. Also, most will stick to one or two brands because having 4-5 options, or having different brands for different issues results in more cost in stocking, ordering, handling, and shipping. And many of the ‘great brands’ that are being shared do NOT make Rx diets, even fewer have the ability to consistently check bio-availability of the nutrition in their food through feed trials. I wish they would or could; it would give me, as a future vet, more options.

 

[david594]

But my main problem is not with Hills, in the grand scheme of things that is just a pet peeve. The thing that makes me rant and rave is the big brands with loads of advertising and very little nutrition to back it up.

Nutritional Research and Innovation
Hill's employs more than 150 veterinarians, Ph.D. nutritionists and food scientists who work every day around the world to create new products and improve existing ones that will help your pet live a long, healthy and full life. Hill's scientists author more than 50 research papers and textbook chapters each year and teach at leading schools of veterinary medicine all over the world so we can put our knowledge and expertise into every Hill's® pet food for you.
Our foods for dogs and cats are formulated for the optimal balance of nutrients and best taste. We know the best nutrition for your pet not only meets nutritional needs, but also avoids excess nutrients, such as fat and salt, that can be harmful over time.

What does Taste of the Wild have to back up their "nutrition"?

Were anthropomorphizing our diets to our animals here. "It has Bison and I'd rather eat that instead of corn meal, so it must be better for my dog." Where is the science for these other diets?

 

[Ben and Me]

What does Taste of the Wild have to back up their "nutrition"?

Oh! I know! Research done by Hills! 😉

I'd have to say my favorite part about this thread is being called "brainwashed" when in fact us vet students are the ones reserving judgement until peer-reviewed studies come out...Ironic?

 

[david594]

...Ironic?

Of course not. Hill's slipped the blue pill in the Panera boxed lunches they bought us!

 

[radio2020]

Just a horse feeding story.... there was a call from a woman, who had owned her horses for almost a decade, that her mare was "starting" to colic. Upon arrival the horse was thrashing in its sand pit for a paddock. What did it eat? She dumped about 10 giant bags of wheat in for the horse to eat. Not only did she feed it wheat, the wheat was almost a DECADE old. She had stocked up on it out of fear of the Y2K crash. She thought the world was ending and wanted to be sure to have a food source? So when the world didn't end, she didn't want it to go to waste and fed it to her horse. I am sure you can guess the horse didn't make it. Insanity.

 

[rugbychick16]

I would just like to thank the other vet students for backing me up. I don't like to get involved in big debates, but I'll just say when I see a peer-reviewed study done and published on how horrible certain brands on dog food are, I'll believe it. Not "my best friends sisters dog got cancer from purina" or "the best vet ever that I work with recommends bison meat"

My cats get canned and dry science diet nature's best, and some canned innova evo. My ferrets get innova evo dry ferret food. My parents dogs at home get science diet natures best, a step up from the old roys they used to be on. My parents cat with FLUTD gets purina UR

I believe that MOST brands of dogfood out there (above the scale of old roys) are decent enough for the majority of dogs, and that a vet can recommend whatever they feel comfortable with and what the clientele in their area can get. If you want to get natural organic food shipped in from the specialty pet store two hours away that your breeder told you is the best thing for your dog-go for it! Its your decision.

 

[Ben and Me]

Of course not. Hill's slipped the blue pill in the Panera boxed lunches they bought us!

...Wait...Isn't the blue pill Viagra?! 😛

 

[Tech2Vet]

Does any other brand besides Hill's have a low residue type food for stone control or reduction? I have no personal qualms with Hill's, but I would at least consider something else given the chance, but my pup has had one $3000 surgery already and I'm not too keen on another. Do I have any other options here? The canned S/D really does help when her bladder stones appear bigger in a radiograph. She has to pee every two hours, though.

We've gotten good results with Wysong pH- as a supplement.
Oh and you can check into this as well - http://www.vetriscience.com/renal-essentials-dogs.php - I am a big fan of Vetriscience products!

Also this one - http://www.vetriscience.com/ut-strength-dogs.php
As far as low residue - most good quality brands without fillers will be low residue, just look for ones with low fiber as well 😉

 

[PicklePie]

You seem to be ignoring the fact that I am not very invested in this whole kuffufle, Hills is okay. I did not feel the need to bust out any links before, but hopefully this will clear the air a bit.

First, as far as I know, vet schools and undergrad nutritional courses are NOT funded by any of the food companies. If you have evidence otherwise, please share it.

Does UC Davis count?
http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/whatsnew/article2.cfm?id=1375

Generally, that indicates that some person somewhere wrote about it on a forum or blog or some other insightful article, and people, even those who should be able to easily research such information like a pre-vet such as yourself, chose to believe it without asking any additional questions.

I try not to rely on random blogs for anything whatsoever, excluding cakewrecks and regretsy. 😀 I was going off the fact that I saw mentions of Hills' funding when I was looking into which vet schools to apply to.

Hills, Purina, Nutro, Bravo, and a host of other food companies have presented information on their product lines at our school...
which would mean the demo of a specific knee surgery wouldn't be allowed, nor would the information on obtaining loans for practice start up, nor info on obtaining health insurance

I never said it should not be allowed, I was just voicing minor concern. There are plenty of situations that warrant caution, even though they are beneficial or necessary. And let's not get too excited, there is a difference between a company coming to promote a product line and a practitioner coming to share a new procedure.

All I am asking for is documentation that any major food company has paid for my nutrition course. If you don't have that, then why spread the information? It devalues the education that vets receive (don't listen to your vet, the ‘man' taught them everything they know), and there is a presumption that you KNOW about vet school nutritional education and that you know far more than vet nutritionists and nutritionists that teach such courses. Maybe you do…perhaps you already have a DVM and/or PhD in nutrition, I don't know, but if so, back up what you are saying with documentation.

Well, I can't say anything about who funded your nutrition course since I have no idea who you are or where you took it. I do not think that the funding necessarily devalues the education and I certainly do not pretend to be more advanced than I am. As I stated, I am totally open to being proven wrong. I like to learn from mistakes, if I didn't like to learn at every opportunity then this would be a poor choice of profession.

but I also realize that most vets can't stock multiple brands of food because doing so costs them money. Also, most will stick to one or two brands because having 4-5 options, or having different brands for different issues results in more cost in stocking, ordering, handling, and shipping.

I didn't mean to suggest that every vet had to stock a huge variety of foods, they do not really need to stock any. I just feel that they should be open to recommending quality products no matter the brand. My vet has a huge selection because his clinic is in a very rural area, if he did not make it available it would be very difficult for owners to get that sort of quality.

What does Taste of the Wild have to back up their "nutrition"?
Were anthropomorphizing our diets to our animals here. "It has Bison and I'd rather eat that instead of corn meal, so it must be better for my dog." Where is the science for these other diets?

Reread my post. I am not referring to Hills in that paragraph.

 

[Coquette22]

Does UC Davis count?
http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/whatsnew/article2.cfm?id=1375

Or OVC? http://www.uoguelph.ca/facultyjobs/postings/ad08-42.html

 

[Medic_9]

For bad feeding mistakes:
I do alot of wildlife rehabilitation.

People have brought in raccoons...one was feed garbage and cheese popcorn for a month, many many others were fed cows milk (not the right protein/fat ratio), and the most surprising...the lady that fed a baby raccoon her OWN breast milk, out of a bottle though.

 

[sofficat]

For bad feeding mistakes:
I do alot of wildlife rehabilitation.

People have brought in raccoons...one was feed garbage and cheese popcorn for a month, many many others were fed cows milk (not the right protein/fat ratio), and the most surprising...the lady that fed a baby raccoon her OWN breast milk, out of a bottle though.

ah! i can't believe she would admit to that!

a vet called the raptor center where i volunteer and said she has a screech owl who isn't eating and was wondering what to do (I think she was actually calling for a transfer... at least I hope so). The head tech at the center asked what she was feeding it and the vet said.... (any guesses?)... baby carrots. Yes- the screech owl must be sick because it isn't eating it's baby carrots.

 

[annie800]

I was watching the movie Seven Pounds the other day (very, very sad movie BTW... my face hurt because it made me cry so hard... but anyway) ... one of the main characters has a great dane, and the Will Smith character gave it some meat. She came running and was like, "No, no! My dog is vegetarian! He eats broccoli and..." well... something else, I forget what. But I was like, "Damn, I hope she dies of heart failure or whatever she has, terrible pet owner, grumble mumble etc."

You make whatever personal choices about your diet, but dogs and cats should never be subjected to the same diet. ESPECIALLY cats, but from what I understand, dogs can't live on rice and broccoli either.

Agreed. By far. Vegetarian/veganism is not for dogs, cats, or ferrets. We feed grain free, raw and the occasional honest kitchen dehydrated raw.

 

[sumstorm]

Or OVC? http://www.uoguelph.ca/facultyjobs/postings/ad08-42.html

My mistake! That is still a small percentage of vet schools.

Would it be better, in your minds, if the funds were just given to general fund? there are some issues there (general funds can be tapped by state governments or used to reduce funds to the school from the state.) I am still not sure there is an issue. Is it better that Iams pays for our imaging unit than for a nutrition course? I have a feeling most food companies could come in and present, but we don’t see reps from some of these companies. The Bravo one was from a founder, so we are pretty open to other points of view.

Also, is the implication that the instructors are ‘owned’ and hired by the food company and therefore teaching poor nutrition science? I wouldn’t agree with that. At least, I hope the companies don’t get to hire the instructors, but that the school does. Does this mean we shouldn’t accept any funds from any company that sells anything ever to vets? I can’t imagine paying the change in tuition. I also freely admit that I changed what I fed my dogs because I believe many of these kibbles are fine for my pets, and the cost is better for me. However, it doesn’t make me brand loyal (if anything, I am even less brand loyal than before.) I haven’t figured out what I will offer if I open my own clinic…I will make that decision with the info that is available at that point; luckily, I know about things like AAfCO labels, ingredient splitting, physiology, bioavailability, recipe drift, and DM analysis. I wouldn’t have any of that knowledge without a nutrition course (I took mine at Rutgers.)

As for the lunch presentations, I really don’t see the difference between a patented surgical technique (ie you will have to pay, and thus charge your clients, to perform the procedure) than for food (a product clients purchase) and software (a product we purchase but becomes part of the costs of operation that we do have to get back somehow.) We also have presentations from pharm companies, loan companies, etc. Many of these are generalize information (and always ‘audience beware’ since at a recent one the CPA encouraged us all to get life insurance so our loved ones wouldn’t be saddled with the costs of our federal loans if something happened to us….which is NOT accurate at all) who do hope to sell us something later on. That will happen when we are in practice to; hence why there are pharm reps.

 

[KiaKia]

Sadly, I was one of the pet owners that fed meds to the dog hidden in grapes, since he loves them so much. He doesn't even like fruit in general.
One very expensive hospitalization later and we learned our lesson.

Both dogs are allergic to chicken. One has a grain allergy, the other one would rather starve than eat dry dog food (she's pretty skinny).

End result: chicken- & grain- free kibble (no brand or flavor loyalty) mixed with leftover beef/fish broth from our dinner.

 

[snapcall]

the lady that fed a baby raccoon her OWN breast milk, out of a bottle though.

That's unbelievable! I mean, I believe it, but... wow.

 

[PicklePie]

My mistake! That is still a small percentage of vet schools.

I found that UC Davis link after only two seconds of googling. While it may look like a small percentage, there are not that many veterinary schools out there and Davis definitely ranks high among them.

Another two seconds finds that Michigan State gave them some silly partnership award. The Hills website brags about how much financial and program support that they provide. They provide funding for nutrition programs at University of Queensland School of Veterinary Science as well. Their feeding program at the University of Minnesota has been going strong for 20 years so I am guessing that there are a lot of similar longstanding relationships with schools.

Would it be better, in your minds, if the funds were just given to general fund?
Is it better that Iams pays for our imaging unit than for a nutrition course?
I have a feeling most food companies could come in and present, but we don't see reps from some of these companies.

They already do give a lot of general donations, scholarships and that sort of thing. That certainly looks less shady than direct involvement with the nutrition program, while still enriching education. When it comes down to it, the funding is probably a good thing but it is important to pay attention to where it is coming from.

I am not rabidly against Hills or Purina, the humongous marketshare that they each have gets a little annoying. It would be great if a bunch more brands could participate in more of the same programs, giving talks and providing funding, but I think it is difficult at times for smaller companies to reach a point where that is a viable expenditure.

Also, is the implication that the instructors are ‘owned' and hired by the food company and therefore teaching poor nutrition science?
Does this mean we shouldn't accept any funds from any company that sells anything ever to vets? I can't imagine paying the change in tuition.

The UC Davis link mentions "Sean Delaney, DVM, MS, ACVN, is currently a Hill's-sponsored lecturer in the Nutrition Support Service. Dr. Delaney has helped to integrate nutrition with other hospital services at the VMTH. Nutrition Support Service members routinely attend hospital rounds with other services such as Medicine and Critical Care/ICU and give presentations for journal clubs." I am not entirely sure what they mean by Hill's-sponsored lecturer, whether they simply pay for him or they had a hand in choosing him. That is the issue I have.

Vets and vet schools can accept whatever funding they see fit, but I think that when the funds come from a large corporation there needs to be a level of transparency. I am super duper nosy. 😀 I would like it to be made clear how much is being given, what it is being used for, and how much involvement the corporation has beyond handing over the check.

I do not think that the nutritional education is void just because there could be some measure of influence from Hills, but their involvement is something to acknowledge and probably keep an eye on. The fact that educated people dismiss the idea as nothing but blog rumors shows that there is a lack of awareness.

Research is grueling, from getting funding to getting published. A company that has a lot of capital and longstanding relationships with assorted veterinary schools and associations is at a distinct advantage. There is not some crazy conspiracy, the fact is that Hills has the resources to sink into research while smaller brands are less equipped. The results are not less scientifically sound by any means, but the type of research that is being pursued is influenced. Peer-reviewed results are awesome, but dismissing brands that do not have them is judging them as much on their lack of resources as their supposed lack of quality.

Many of these are generalize information (and always ‘audience beware' since at a recent one the CPA encouraged us all to get life insurance so our loved ones wouldn't be saddled with the costs of our federal loans if something happened to us….which is NOT accurate at all) who do hope to sell us something later on.

This gets more into gnittygritty personal morals, something to keep an eye on rather than something to put a stop to. I just feel that the situation is different when the product they want you to market to your clients is being given to you for free. There is a difference in my mind between "You should pay us to use this procedure for your future clients, here is a free lunch" and "You should sell this to your future clients, here is 60lbs of it for free each month and free lunch."


Sorry for the wall of text! The prize for anyone who made it this far is this adorable monster.

 

[BlacKAT33]

aww what a cute pic!! oman that tiny bed is sooo adorable


i have no idea which types of food are better/worse than others. my vet has never mentioned anything wrong with feeding my cat iams dry and friskies wet. is there anything nutritionally wrong with these brands? my cat loves them. i tried natural choice once but my cat wouldn't touch it. so i've just been staying with these. it is especially nice because i can get the friskies canned at costco in bulk.

 

[PicklePie]

Thanks! He alternates between lounging in it for hours and trying to destroy it.

If you have no idea, consumer search is a great place to start. It is not a veterinary site, but they do cite veterinarians and give a good general idea of the difference between friskies and premium foods. It has several pages of information followed by reviews of canned, raw, and dry foods.